Eng v Aus match thread + build up

[DeludedOptimistorjustDave]

First topic message reminder :

Chance to chat about the game.
I think it will be a real cracker with England to take it by around 8 points or more.
I know every game is important but the management must have this penciled in as a must win because they can win it if they play it right.

[GloriousEmpire]

If you get excited by a team playing poorly but benefiting from shabby officiating I can only say you've picked the right country to support.

[The Saint]

I had to leave on the 73 minute mark, but I had a feeling England could hold out for the win, which they did. Well done England! This win makes me very happy. I thought Aus looked good in the first half, England as good but like a rabbit in the headlights on some occassions and Aus took advantage. I think that might be inexperience on England's part but that will come in time. Lee Dickson, Mike Brown, the Vunipola's and Courtney Lawes stood out for me; however the centre partnership looked pretty poor. Argentina with a new coach should be a comfortable victory for England if you don't try and take them on conservatively, they'll just lap it up and the game will likely be a slug-fest. I'll be cheering you on again anyway.

As for Australia, they'll no doubt get better. Looking at their form in their last 3 games they aren't bad at all. I'm wondering if they have a week off just before their final game against Wales? With time for extra prep along with the fact Australia are usually at their best in the final match of the series I can't see us beating them unless we are on some kind of winning streak; and that's pretty unlikely with a very good SA team first up.

[stub]

Blimey, some people have really shown themselves up tonight. Cannot believe the anti English bile stirred up by this win - I guess it's just sadly automatic for some. Some great comments too - I thought Taylorman has been spot on. Anyway plenty to work on from an England point of view but a win against Australia is great news and a great start. I agree that England need to start with Hartley and Ben Youngs next week. Ashton was very disappointing - don't know if he does good things I don't see? I thought Lawes got better as the match went on. Not sure if Tomkins is ready yet. Brown was fantastic - I think it was CJ who predicted great things from him and he was right. Anyway great result!

[Pal Joey]

Oh dear... what a miserable experience!

Congratulations to all the England fans on here.  The Cook Cup back where it belongs until next year.... it pains me to say.

I thought there were some positive glimpses for the Wallabies in that 1st half despite being sought out by Clancy in marginal decisions against them. Plus those howlers... but the Wallabies would have found another way to lose anyway! Same old, same old... we never learn! Pretty poor from both sides really - negative and hopeless are the 2 words which spring to mind. Both sides are well below NZ and SA... by a rung and a half at least.

It was one of those games where I felt like jumping through the screen and giving someone a slap... but what would that have achieved? Nothing. Our lot are just so poorly skilled (when it counts) and utterly predictable. Prone to throwing away any advantage and handing points to the opposition on a platter. It's unbearable to watch.

Full credit to England for gradually gaining control of the game as it progressed and forcing the inevitable errors and winning on the scoreboard. I thought the Wallabies were lucky not to have run into a more potent and match-ready England side but as it turns out - even an average performance from England (1st half) was enough to do the job. They will need to improve for the big 2 though and I wish them luck.

I don't know what is wrong with Genia. I was so frustrated watching him take his eyes off the ball behind the ruck... hesitating and getting the ball pinched from in front of his nose on a few occasions. What was he thinking/doing? Just switch on please... and stop putting more pressure on our backs which have their task made hard enough as it is when the England back line is standing on the ad line waiting to smash anything that moves.

I blame Clancy for that type of situation (both teams always on the verge of offside) but he tended to ignore that and focus on the important infringements like 'standing up in the scrum' - which should have been addressed by the Wallabies "Think Tank" long before kick-off or by an instruction from McKenzie on-the-spot.

I don't care whether Mowen was trying to keep an eye on the England scrum base.... that's the flankers role to keep an eye out and make the calls... he needs to contribute more to the actual contest 'in progress' and he is only weakening the scrum as well as getting penalised for this behaviour. I honestly didn't feel England should have had the upper hand in those situations but against our pack they made it look easy - like taking an all-day sucker from a kid's mouth. It's not really an art at all - it's just that the Wallabies are so gullible and stupid and like a young zebra foal... have a penchant for wandering too close to the waiting lions.... at every available opportunity. It's so sickening to watch from an Aussie perspective but they got what they deserved.

On a similar note - we lost the decider to India in the ODI Series. Like our rugby team we have that special knack of knowing when to self-destruct. The opposition simply has to calmly wait for the crumbs to drop... then pounce on them and turn it into a decent feast. Hurts me to say but we are such a bloody generous lot!  

Oh well, at least we beat Fiji in the RLWC. What a consolation!

[Heaf]

Hey GE remember posting this?

"It's interesting how some posters believe it is valid to criticise a referee when the outcome doesn't suit them ..."

[kingjohn7]

Congrats England 
Wasnt particularly enjoyable game from a neutrals view but Eng fans must/should be happy. Winning that type of game is the thing that I always think sets Eng apart from Wales. Im biased but I do think we are a better side than Eng but I dont think we will beat Aus. I think Ireland will win also.
On a side note, funniest thing ive heard for ages,"not enough obstruction" 
Eng must have one of the youngest sides, think they said average age 24, bodes well for the next few years.

[Poorfour]

One thing to bear in mind about England's performance is that only the front row had actually played together as a unit before. Although we only had one debutant in Tomkins, the locks, back row, halfbacks, centres and back three were all starting together for the first time - against a much more settled Australia outfit.

I think that excuses some of England's errors, and I felt that compared to last year's game this side were making far better decisions and had control for most of the match. Still a lot to work on, but it's been a while since England have looked that composed against the Wallabies

[mystiroakey]

Congrats England 
Wasnt particularly enjoyable game from a neutrals view but Eng fans must/should be happy. Winning that type of game is the thing that I always think sets Eng apart from Wales. Im biased but I do think we are a better side than Eng but I dont think we will beat Aus. I think Ireland will win also.
On a side note, funniest thing ive heard for ages,"not enough obstruction" 
Eng must have one of the youngest sides, think they said average age 24, bodes well for the next few years.

It's fair enough to think you are better after the 6 nations win. However that means nothing if you can't beat Sh teams.. Stop targeting us with that one immense performance every other year and start playing like that v Oz..

Then it's a simple outcome. You will win!!

[Exiledinborders]

Hey GE remember posting this?

"It's interesting how some posters believe it is valid to criticise a referee when the outcome doesn't suit them ..."

 

[Metal Tiger]

It was just honestly the most ridiculous and embarrassing few phases of rugby to have disgraced an international match in some decent time.

Not sure why you are bringing up the RWC final when France were shamefully robbed by the cringingly sycophantic reffing towards the ABs?

[Metal Tiger]

Oh Sorry... I misunderstood... you're refferring to England.

Nice to see you on your soapbox again Ghosty my old pal, frothing at the mouth and indulging in your favourite obsession of slagging off England or Wales.

Yaaaaawwwwnnn...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Hound of Harrow]

Lb

Not a great game from either side, especially England in the first half, where I felt out new combinations were still getting to know each other. We put your guys under a lot of pressure in the second half and forced lots of errors.

Aus will improve...too many good players for that not to happen.

[doctor_grey]

Thinking about Australia yesterday, it is pretty clear this is the third ranked of the Big Three SH teams.  The Springboks and All Blacks are another kettle of fish. Kind of makes me wonder how the Lions struggled in the first two tests.

[GloriousEmpire]

Probably didn't benefit from as many refereeing errors as England did yesterday Doctor Grey.

Two tries from two appalling decisions...otherwise England would've lost! At least the Welsh Lions did in style, and AWAY FROM HOME.

[GloriousEmpire]

Hey GE remember posting this?

"It's interesting how some posters believe it is valid to criticise a referee when the outcome doesn't suit them ..."

 

Interesting how some posters will harp on about Joubert's refereeing in the final in 2011 for almost 3 years (without ever actually pointing to a specific decision they think he got wrong) and then when their own side benefits from the most blatantly horrific refereeing blunders in the professional era, they'll suddenly believe that the referee is always right...

[Sgt_Pooly]

I'd say too Grey although they pushed NZ hard in the last game.

Our scrum and defence looked much better than NZ's did against them. Hopefully our attack play will improve too.

[doctor_grey]

Ahhhh, but you can't say England would have lost because we don't know what would have happened had those calls not taken place, do we? Can't presume anything would have taken place exactly as it did, merely subtracting those two calls. When Brown had his foot in touch, England could just have easily lost the ensuing line-out or won it and made a great play to score. Anything that might have happened is only conjecture, no?

[GloriousEmpire]

Yes anything could have happened. I agree. It's such a shame that the result will always be marred in this way. Wouldn't it have been better if the referee hadn't made that succession of awful calls and Australia had competed on a level playing field?

[ChequeredJersey]

Unlucky, Aussies, I thought Clancy was Poopie and you got the worse of it plus that Brown in touch decision. Once we had the momentum we were the better team, before that try from the brown call we were easily worse. The Second try probably would have eventually been scored anyway though

[doctor_grey]

Yes anything could have happened. I agree. It's such a shame that the result will always be marred in this way. Wouldn't it have been better if the referee hadn't made that succession of awful calls and Australia had competed on a level playing field?

The Brown foot in touch was clearly a bad call.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I'm surprised we didn't put more points I'm the board in the 2nd tbh.

If Farrell had his kicking boots on the score could have looked much worse for Aus.

[GloriousEmpire]

Yes anything could have happened. I agree. It's such a shame that the result will always be marred in this way. Wouldn't it have been better if the referee hadn't made that succession of awful calls and Australia had competed on a level playing field?

The Brown foot in touch was clearly a bad call.  

That's all I needed to hear!

Enjoy your win.

[doctor_grey]

Yes anything could have happened. I agree. It's such a shame that the result will always be marred in this way. Wouldn't it have been better if the referee hadn't made that succession of awful calls and Australia had competed on a level playing field?

The Brown foot in touch was clearly a bad call.  

That's all I needed to hear!

Enjoy your win.

I am enjoying the win. I am very happy today. In the past, these are matches England would have found a way to lose.

[Barney McGrew did it]

The rumour of the Aussie resurgence are greatly exaggerated.

Puts the England win, the Lions' series and the refereeing into perspective. The question is can they hang onto 4th, or get out of their pool?

As for England - we have lots of depth but not enough strength in depth. We need our A-team fit to compete with the best. However, we should use the AIs to see who we'd select for our 2nds.

[GloriousEmpire]

Yes they took their chances however clearly sign posted they may have been and deserve credit for that.

[doctor_grey]

The rumour of the Aussie resurgence are greatly exaggerated.

Puts the England win, the Lions' series and the refereeing into perspective. The question is can they hang onto 4th, or get out of their pool?

As for England - we have lots of depth but not enough strength in depth. We need our A-team fit to compete with the best. However, we should use the AIs to see who we'd select for our 2nds.

Well, looking at the back row we put out, England are clearly evaluating their depth.  We need to see how this depth pans out.  This is important for the future.  

Aus have two years to come good before the RWC.  PLus they have a lot of injuries.  When it is time, they will be a force to reckon with, methinks.

[GloriousEmpire]

I thought Robshaw was anonymous aside from flopping on the ball for a try.

[ChequeredJersey]

You are entitled to your opinion. The only international rugby player I have spoken to, admittedly drunk, about the game thought he was in the top 5 players on the pitch

[englandglory4ever]

Hey GE remember posting this?

"It's interesting how some posters believe it is valid to criticise a referee when the outcome doesn't suit them ..."

Classic. This made me smile.

[englandglory4ever]

I thought Robshaw was anonymous aside from flopping on the ball for a try.

I thought Smith looked like a pansy last year when Brown side stepped him and left him picking flowers on the floor.

[kingjohn7]

Congrats England 
Wasnt particularly enjoyable game from a neutrals view but Eng fans must/should be happy. Winning that type of game is the thing that I always think sets Eng apart from Wales. Im biased but I do think we are a better side than Eng but I dont think we will beat Aus. I think Ireland will win also.
On a side note, funniest thing ive heard for ages,"not enough obstruction" 
Eng must have one of the youngest sides, think they said average age 24, bodes well for the next few years.

It's fair enough to think you are better after the 6 nations win. However that means nothing if you can't beat Sh teams.. Stop targeting us with that one immense performance every other year and start playing like that v Oz..

Then it's a simple outcome. You will win!!

Not just the 6 nations win, I think player for player we are better(my opinion).
Apart from that I agree with you mate. Although I also think that SH teams have more fear/respect(relax GE I know you dont properly fear them) when playing England than against Wales(unjustifiably IMO) but can sort of become self fulfilling.

[ChequeredJersey]

In the end, it was our first game in a while against an Aussie side who had hit form in their past 2 matches and had been together for months. I'm happy with the result and convinced we will be better for more of the match next week

[englandglory4ever]

After that performance by England I think they can build and just get better and better. Winning can be infectious. Beating Australia with a side virtually packed with new combos was impressive. Can't wait to watch them again. England have never fielded such a raw 'new' side before and come away with a win against the SH. The composure they showed in the second half was fantastic and led to them dominating the Aussies for long periods. It was scrappy at times but very impressive overall.

[mystiroakey]

Congrats England 
Wasnt particularly enjoyable game from a neutrals view but Eng fans must/should be happy. Winning that type of game is the thing that I always think sets Eng apart from Wales. Im biased but I do think we are a better side than Eng but I dont think we will beat Aus. I think Ireland will win also.
On a side note, funniest thing ive heard for ages,"not enough obstruction" 
Eng must have one of the youngest sides, think they said average age 24, bodes well for the next few years.

It's fair enough to think you are better after the 6 nations win. However that means nothing if you can't beat Sh teams.. Stop targeting us with that one immense performance every other year and start playing like that v Oz..

Then it's a simple outcome. You will win!!

Not just the 6 nations win, I think player for player we are better(my opinion).
Apart from that I agree with you mate. Although I also think that SH teams have more fear/respect(relax GE I know you dont properly fear them) when playing England than against Wales(unjustifiably IMO) but can sort of become self fulfilling.

Its more about your team, you are a flaky team. It you play at your best you will beat aus. They wont raise there game to you and play worse against england..

[englandglory4ever]

"Its more about your team, you are a flaky team. It you play at your best you will beat aus. They wont raise there game to you and play worse against england.."

I agree. If anything they could be so deflated now after seeing their European grand slam dreams shattered at the first go that they drop off and start thinking about going home. Afterall, all the Aussie pundits were predicting a big win for Aus. Ho hum!  

[lostinwales]

Refereee decisions are one thing but surely the biggest reason Australia lost is that they didnt score enough points. Nothing in the 2nd half. For a 'battle hardened' team vs a very rusty England that isnt good at all. Alternatively maybe England did something right?

[Heaf]

Hey GE remember posting this?

"It's interesting how some posters believe it is valid to criticise a referee when the outcome doesn't suit them ..."

 

Interesting how some posters will harp on about Joubert's refereeing in the final in 2011 for almost 3 years (without ever actually pointing to a specific decision they think he got wrong) and then when their own side benefits from the most blatantly horrific refereeing blunders in the professional era, they'll suddenly believe that the referee is always right...

1. I've not been harping on about Joubert
2. To call those decisions the worst blunders in the prefessional era is laughable
3. I've never said the ref is always right, far from it

You on the other hand have shown yourself yet again to be massively hypocritical.

Sorry TJ I couldn't help myself ...

[GloriousEmpire]

Ok name one worse refereeing blunder than yesterday's hilarious effort.

[Heaf]

Aus v ABs in Tri-Nations (can't remember which year), 5m scrum, McCaw detatches early and manages to get 3 yards off the scrum before the No 8 picks up the ball and passes to McCaw who scores ... Blatent penalty missed/ignored by the officials. TV commentary team all agreed.

OK I've humoured you now - still doesn't mean you're not a hypocrite does it?

[lostinwales]

I got another - was looking at the scrum right before the Australian try. I rewatched it a couple of times but still cant work out where exactly the ball went from Genia but sure as anything nobody hooked it and Mowen was leaping about trying to control it. Not the straightest put in in the world. But Clancy was right there...

[GloriousEmpire]

You've a hard road to hoe on the scrum. Clancy went out with the notion he was going to penalise Australia out of the game there. Several times the England front row went straight to ground but Clancy just reset the scrum. Whenever it was Australia he went straight to penalty. Not to mention several times Australia messe up the English unit and were bizarrely penalised for it. England were early on engagement all night and Clancy merely asked them to wait "next time". Foul foul one eyed refereeing.

[Poorfour]

Ok name one worse refereeing blunder than yesterday's hilarious effort.

Hyperbole much? Here are 8, off the top of my head.

Steve Walsh missing six deliberate collapses of the scrum by the Welsh front row in Cardiff this year? (And you can't deny that they were deliberate collapses, because the source was Adam Jones himself)?

And wasn't there that time when the assistant ref allowed Wales to take a quick lineout, from which they scored and changed the result of the game, when the ball had been touched by someone else, thereby making the quick lineout not permissible?

Andre Watson's refereeing of the scrum in the 2003 RWC final (which admittedly made it a far more exciting game, but was incorrect on both the letter and the spirit of the scrummaging laws)?

The refereeing of the scrum in the first Lions test in 2009, when Mtwarira was allowed to bore in on the Lions front row for 80 minutes without sanction?

The refereeing of the first Lions test in 2005, admittedly before the TMO's remit was expanded, in which NZ should have had two red cards in the first 5 minutes for the O'Driscoll incident?

The Australia - Scotland match in (I think) RWC 2003 when Scotland had a clear run at the tryline but the referee didn't play advatage because he wanted to give Wendell Sailor a jolly good talking to for an act of foul play (IIRC, it was a punch that should have been an instant red)?

In the Quins-Scarlets game last month, the ref completely failed to spot a tip tackle that landed Luke Wallace on his head, and it happened right in front of him.

Refereeing the semi-finals of an U9 tournament today, I missed what was apparently a blatant tackle off the ball and one of my colleagues missed 4 or 5 knock-ons in the tackle.

It happens. Referees miss things all the time. Clancy and his team weren't perfect yesterday, but they were pretty even-handed and they missed plenty from both sides.

[GloriousEmpire]

Aus v ABs in Tri-Nations (can't remember which year), 5m scrum, McCaw detatches early and manages to get 3 yards off the scrum before the No 8 picks up the ball and passes to McCaw who scores ... Blatent penalty missed/ignored by the officials.  TV commentary team all agreed.

OK I've humoured you now - still doesn't mean you're not a hypocrite does it?

You need to watch thAt one again. The Aussie coaches were up in Rms after the game - there was no comment at all from the commentary team. And why not? The ball was well out of the scrum before McCaw detached. It was just an excellently executed quick move that caught the Aussies napping.

You can't compare that with browns foot well in touch and then 5 consecutive knock ons in 5 passes. It was just comedy gold. Even the sky commentary team were stunned.

[ChequeredJersey]

England have had a tremendous run of luck given that it seems every circumstance, referee and luck in the matches has gone our way and we've won these matches despite apparently having no redeeming features. In real life, adults tend to accept that continuous fortuitity actually indicates what we like to call skill, but never mind that

[ChequeredJersey]

Who could have seen Brown's foot in touch? Both feet were literally clipping the line, no officials were nearby and Brown himself probably didn't know his feet were in touch or he would have had them an inch further out. That's not a shocking error, we all just think it was because we have the benefit of tv angles, close ups, replays and slo mo

[GloriousEmpire]

Ok name one worse refereeing blunder than yesterday's hilarious effort.

Hyperbole much? Here are 8, off the top of my head.

Steve Walsh missing six deliberate collapses of the scrum by the Welsh front row in Cardiff this year? (And you can't deny that they were deliberate collapses, because the source was Adam Jones himself)?

And wasn't there that time when the assistant ref allowed Wales to take a quick lineout, from which they scored and changed the result of the game, when the ball had been touched by someone else, thereby making the quick lineout not permissible?

Andre Watson's refereeing of the scrum in the 2003 RWC final (which admittedly made it a far more exciting game, but was incorrect on both the letter and the spirit of the scrummaging laws)?

The refereeing of the scrum in the first Lions test in 2009, when Mtwarira was allowed to bore in on the Lions front row for 80 minutes without sanction?

The refereeing of the first Lions test in 2005, admittedly before the TMO's remit was expanded, in which NZ should have had two red cards in the first 5 minutes for the O'Driscoll incident?

The Australia - Scotland match in (I think) RWC 2003 when Scotland had a clear run at the tryline but the referee didn't play advatage because he wanted to give Wendell Sailor a jolly good talking to for an act of foul play (IIRC, it was a punch that should have been an instant red)?

In the Quins-Scarlets game last month, the ref completely failed to spot a tip tackle that landed Luke Wallace on his head, and it happened right in front of him.

Refereeing the semi-finals of an U9 tournament today, I missed what was apparently a blatant tackle off the ball and one of my colleagues missed 4 or 5 knock-ons in the tackle.

It happens. Referees miss things all the time. Clancy and his team weren't perfect yesterday, but they were pretty even-handed and they missed plenty from both sides.

Nope all those things are just subjective opinion - apart from the lions 2005 which went to the judiciary and was thrown out. We've all seen since what a bunch of hysterical cry babies the Irish are when it comes to BoD...puts it in perspective.

You can't compare any if those to Browns foot in touch, the endless knock ons and the blatant obstruction. Now even Ewen McKenzie has said today "you can't pretend these clear bad calls didnt influence the result".

[ChequeredJersey]

Even Mckenzie, because he is clearly the most objective person to comment on that

[GloriousEmpire]

Who could have seen Brown's foot in touch? Both feet were literally clipping the line, no officials were nearby and Brown himself probably didn't know his feet were in touch or he would have had them an inch further out. That's not a shocking error, we all just think it was because we have the benefit of tv angles, close ups, replays and slo mo

Rubbish. It was clear as daylight. I saw it the first time around. What about the succession of knock ons? Those could've been seen from space. And that obstruction? Visible from mars.

[Heaf]

GE delusional as usual and still no answer re being hypocrital

[ChequeredJersey]

Well, technically both TMO and referee saw the obstruction, they just decided to let it go, which I disagree with but several neutrals on te FB group were fine with. Your first point is BS but if you did spot it first time, well done you, think you probably had a better angle than the officials though right? Unless you watched the game in the stadium this is a certainty. The knockons I'll grant but that is hardly exceptional.

Clancy was poor. He always is, especially as he doesn't believe in letting the game continue and Australia were hard done by but he wasn't actually one eyed and these errors are not either the crimes you seem to believe or the main thing affecting the result of the game and people will take anything you say on a thread like this far more seriously the first time you ever show yourself to be capable of taking on the opposite side of an argument.

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