Nadal's "coaching" demon

Latest in a series of accusations, this distracts from an otherwise stellar career that Nadal has had so far.

“We all know, players and umpires, that Toni is always trying to help Rafa. That’s normal. That’s part of the game. But when it’s too much, it’s too much."

It was a tough match, which could have gone either way.

The interesting comment from Toni…

Toni Nadal does not deny that he offers advice from the box. He says the rules against coaching from the box are antiquated and need to be changed. “I think all the sports make an evolution,” he said. “It’s not natural that you pay a coach and this coach travels to Australia and to New York to watch his player and he can’t say nothing.”

is rather strange (the highlighted part). There has been a fine levied in the past at Wimbledon, lest Uncle Toni forget. Also, I did not know UT was being paid.

http://tennis.si.com/2013/11/06/stanislas-wawrinka-rafael-nadal-coaching/

Officially acknowledged would make it a done deal, but where would the line be drawn? I am imagining head sets being worn and a panel of experts monitoring the action on a row of tv screens, computer models being run in real time, then advice being sent by satellite & beamed into the players headset.

They could be wearing a heart monitor. Maybe their glucose levels could also be monitored along with other key physiological parameters using miniature sensors & autobots in the blood stream & on the skin sending out signals to a team of medics in another room.

Ps Your question is what is known as a leading question: it assumes that coaching already occurs. If it occurs why shouldn't it be acknowledged. If it is acknowledged then what to do ... accept it?

I went for Yes, as you see coaching do take place illegally, however you try to make Team Nadal follow the rules they will always bend the rules for their favor and comfort and nobody in ATP has spine to take action and stop it.

So best is to make it legal, in Cricket Hansie Cronje once carried headphone with him to get coaching from his coach, it became a big issue and later on field coaching was banned.

I guess to be fair coaches in the box should be allowed to communicate but the players shouldn't be allowed what so ever to talk to them, they should only be allowed to listen, and these coaching can be done in between points without the player leaving the court.

Nore Staat wrote:Officially acknowledged would make it a done deal, but where would the line be drawn?  I am imagining head sets being worn and a panel of experts monitoring the action on a row of tv screens, computer models being run in real time, then advice being sent by satellite & beamed into the players headset.

They could be wearing a heart monitor.  Maybe their glucose levels could also be monitored along with other key physiological parameters using miniature sensors & autobots in the blood stream & on the skin sending out signals to a team of medics in another room.

Have you watched the US NFL? The same one which is now researching head trauma that the game causes and it's long term impacts, like Brett Favre's memory loss.

What you describe already happens today.

@iC… I recall that incident with Hansie Cronje. He was also part of the gambling/match fixing accused.

Nore Staat wrote:Ps Your question is what is known as a leading question: it assumes that coaching already occurs.   If it occurs why shouldn't it be acknowledged.  If it is acknowledged then what to do ... accept it?

Yes, like WTA.

I like the idea of coaching in change overs or between sets, I always have found the conversations between trainers and boxers to be really interesting and informative for the fans you learn a lot about tactics and strategy that way. The rule is antiquated, but while it is the rule Rafa's team should obey it, otherwise it does not reflect well on Nadal who in other respects is a humble and deserving champion.

laverfan. You are very mischievous! I am waiting for a poll on Nadal's other "demons" that always get an airing after he has won something significant. (time between points, jumping up and down to intimidate, sitting on the bench too long, placing his water bottles in an irritatingly neat way and (cough) adjusting his underwear etc)

No, it shouldn't be allowed. The coach can give the player tactics before the match starts but once it is under way it is up to them to understand the game and how to beat their opponent. It sounds like the umpire yesterday was weak and should have docked Rafa a point.

Toni's attitude is unfortunate and calls into question what other rules he might encourage Rafa to bend.

Andy Murray tweeted: "read and respect the rules and everything is very simple".

Well said.

Toni does seem a slightly Jekyll and Hyde character, like his nephew. Given the list of life lessons he has thrown at the media for nearly a decade now, you'd think he understood that there is nothing acceptable about on-court coaching.

Also, sometimes his advice seems quite counter-productive, I remember Nadal being under the cosh vs Gulbis and the best Toni could sneak through was 'attack the backhand' - Yes, that's how you win a match against a mercurial player, by going after his strength...

Clearly Uncle Toni not only cheats but is happy to admit he cheats simply because he doesn't agree with the rules. Imagine if everyone just ignored rules they don't like - there wouldn't be much of a sport left, so his actions are quite deplorable in that sense.

Personally I'd accept end-of-set consultations as a reasonable coaching rule.

US NFL - that's a team sport and is peculiar to the US (& related): it is set up like two opposing armies, padded up, field marshals and a set of UN inspectors.

Sport involving individuals (mano a mano) should not only be about individual physical ability but also include thinking ability.  If you take out individual thinking ability then you are reducing the sport to greyhound racing or some remote control activity.  

The next step is to put remote control electrodes into their legs and arms & then directly move & control the individual players - coaches could control their players with joy-sticks.  Or the "sport" could be turned into something like WWE wrestling - which is what happens when entertainment eventually takes over from "sport".  So it completely changes the nature of individual sport & it becomes something that departs from sport.  Imagine two grand masters of chess with headsets being advised by a team of experts - just where do we draw the line?

It has become accepted in the WTA because of insidious prejudice: it is believed that wimmen cannot think right during tennis matches & need others to do the thinking for them (their coaches).

The way to stop coaches coaching during matches is to ban them from the stadium or to place them into special boxes with one way mirrors or to ban them from the stadium if they attempt any communication (hand gestures etc).

No, absolutely not. The essence of tennis is the fascination of a gladiatorial contest, how the players cope with changing momentum and situations and conditions out their on their own, how the training has paid off, how those with the mental strength to stay cool and execute or change a game plan can prevail over others whose brains scramble.

Also, allowing on-court coaching adds significantly to the barriers to success for younger players who are much less likely to be able to afford a coach, who may share a coach (Nadal is very keen on tilting the organisation and structure of the ATP in favour of his interests at the cost of lower-ranked and poorer players - so Toni's interjection in favour of legalising one of his preferred methods of cheating should come as no surprise). Nadal is good for the game on court in the sense that he provides a counter-point to other styles of tennis, he has been one half of two great rivalries, and he's a great player in his own right without any doubt, but he needs to be kept on a tight rein because his inherent selfishness means that he'd happily do a lot of damage to the game that has given him so much to continue to preserve his position.

I'd have a strike system - first offence means coaches are put in closed boxes, repeat offences mean being banned from the arena, and then the entire tournament facility.

@HE… There is nothing mischievous about the timing of the article. It happened at the same venue where he achieved YE#1 (in the same match).

@NS… Call of Duty and a plethora other mind-numbing entertainment is the norm these days.

Nore Staat wrote:The way to stop coaches coaching during matches is to ban them from the stadium or to place them into special boxes with one way mirrors or to ban them from the stadium if they attempt any communication (hand gestures etc).

barrystar wrote:I'd have a strike system - first offence means coaches are put in closed boxes, repeat offences mean being banned from the arena, and then the entire tournament facility.

If ATP would agree to such, more power to them. I do not see this happening, at least till I am around. US Open had experimented with microphones in players' boxes. I think it should be the norm at MSes, Slams and WTF. (I will research cost aspects).

Nore Staat wrote: it is believed that wimmen cannot think right during tennis matches & need others to do the thinking for them (their coaches).

Henin and Rodriguez were always in contact. Williams sisters carry notebooks to matches.

Yesterday, in Nadal-Wawrinka match at 3-1, 30-40 (second set), Koenig/Goodall commented that Nadal's camp could have signalled to him (sitting close to him) to challenge an OUT call, which hawkeye showed had clipped the line.
There is an implicit acknowledgement in this observation as far as ATP is concerned.

It is also a hypocrisy to have a rule. (BTW, I am watching an interesting debate in US Supreme Court about Prayers and Government events, which on paper, has a strong separation of State and Religion. Interesting parallel, IMVHO.)

JuliusHMarx wrote:Clearly Uncle Toni not only cheats but is happy to admit he cheats simply because he doesn't agree with the rules. Imagine if everyone just ignored rules they don't like - there wouldn't be much of a sport left, so his actions are quite deplorable in that sense.

Personally I'd accept end-of-set consultations as a reasonable coaching rule.

+1. It would also be a fascinating insight into how players study tactics prior to matches and develop alternative plans for when things go awry (see socal's point on boxing).

Thought it was poor form by the umpire for acknowledging the blatant disregard for the rules, and then doing nothing about it. It seems there needs to be more clarity about the current rule, which is difficult enough to police as-is, especially with different languages flying about around the court.

Isn't coaching ok in the wta? Im probs wrong.

Toni must be recognised as one of the most famous coaches ever -- you hear a but coming on... he steps over the line in my view. Rafa acknowledges in his book that he owes his career to his uncle but that now he wishes to take more control. Rafa does not encourage the on court coaching and I do get defensive of Rafa when he gets called a cheat because of what his Uncle does. Toni has (according to Rafa´s Grandfather Rafael senior) been the most difficult of his children and often way too outspoken. I for one wish he would keep it zipped if only for his nephews sake.

That all being said, please watch Djokovic´s camp.. they are far from innocent. Warwrinka´s own camp yesterday were being somewhat vocal in their encouragement (did you understand what they were saying because I didnt). Our own Andy has had his share of off court coaching.. But the camera is constantly on Rafa´s camp and his parents and that makes me even more annoyed with Toni because he knows he is constantly on camera.

Do Djoko's camp coach, or are they just unruly and unsporting at times?
Can't believe Lendl coaches - "if I raise my left eyebrow one millimetre it means serve out wide"
I think Stan's folks were saying "If you don't at least win a set this time, don't bother coming home for Christmas".

If 'The King is dead' isn't a signal for a Serbian hit on Federer, I don't know what is.

JuliusHMarx wrote:Do Djoko's camp coach, or are they just unruly and unsporting at times?
Can't believe Lendl coaches - "if I raise my left eyebrow one millimetre it means serve out wide"
I think Stan's folks were saying "If you don't at least win a set this time, don't bother coming home for Christmas".

I didn´t say Lendl.. not in his book of ethics. I said HAS HAD not does.

As for Djokovic´s camp Ive seen MARIAN being dug in the ribs by his cohort when he is on camera. Verdasco´s father is/was another who should have been warned.

Sorry but I don't buy the "its Toni not Rafa" excuse. Rafa is 27 and knows the rules. If his coach is breaking them then that is his responsibility. Rafa could easily tell him to stop doing so and Toni would have to listen to his boss.

The fact that Rafa lied about receiving coaching earlier this year before realising the linesman spoke spanish does him no favours either.

Born Slippy wrote:Sorry but I don't buy the "its Toni not Rafa" excuse. Rafa is 27 and knows the rules. If his coach is breaking them then that is his responsibility. Rafa could easily tell him to stop doing so and Toni would have to listen to his boss.

The fact that Rafa lied about receiving coaching earlier this year before realising the linesman spoke spanish does him no favours either.

Rafa is not his boss Rafa is his nephew.. Rafa does not pay Toni. He has no need to. Toni is in business with Rafa´s father that is why Toni does not physically do anything for Rafa other than coach. So I dont care what you "buy"
But Rafa is hardly likely to tell his Uncle to pick up his P45.  He has told Toni numerous times. But he is a law unto himself it seems.

Whether he is paid or not is an irrelevance (and Toni's quote in the article certainly gives the impression he is being paid). He is Rafa's coach and Rafa could easily tell him not to come to tournaments if he was concerned about the allegations.

Personally I think it is human nature to try to communicate a point to the player - especially when the issue seems so obvious (move closer to the baseline Rafa!). It's the system that has to be changed - maybe an ATP chappie could sit with the coach to ensure no communication or something. If they are allowed to "get away with it" then I am not sure it is "cheating" - it is up to the ATP / Umpires etc to ensure their own rules are applied etc. They could for example monitor the tv recordings of the coaching & apply post match fines or intervene if the match is still on-going. I think women's coaching was allowed because it was endemic, everybody was doing it without penalty, so they just allowed it.

Born Slippy wrote:Whether he is paid or not is an irrelevance (and Toni's quote in the article certainly gives the impression he is being paid). He is Rafa's coach and Rafa could easily tell him not to come to tournaments if he was concerned about the allegations.

Yes it was what everyone was saying about Andy´s mother and Novak´s parents as my memory serves me.
Believe what you like it is well documented that Toni refuses to accept payment for his coaching as he refuses to allow his nephew that sort of power over him.  It is ridiculous to say that Toni now should not follow Rafa in some, not all of his matches you must have noted, since he has coached him from the age of 4.  Would YOU after this man, whether he is right or wrong,  brought you  to the pinnacle of your  profession now  tell him to get on his bike... Give me strength. Rafa cant ban him .. what a ludicrous suggestion

Born Slippy wrote:Whether he is paid or not is an irrelevance (and Toni's quote in the article certainly gives the impression he is being paid). He is Rafa's coach and Rafa could easily tell him not to come to tournaments if he was concerned about the allegations.

eacherreport.com/articles/541255-tennis-profile-the-man-behind-the-player-toni-nadal

Haddie-nuff wrote:Toni must be recognised as one of the most famous coaches ever -- you hear a but coming on... he steps over the line in my view. Rafa acknowledges in his book that he owes his career to his uncle but that now he wishes to take more control. Rafa does not encourage the on court coaching and I do get defensive of Rafa when he gets called a cheat because of what his Uncle does. Toni has (according to Rafa´s Grandfather Rafael senior) been the most difficult of his children and often way too outspoken. I for one wish he would keep it zipped if only for his nephews sake.

That all being said, please watch Djokovic´s camp.. they are far from innocent. Warwrinka´s own camp yesterday were being  somewhat vocal in their encouragement (did you understand what they were saying because I didnt). Our own Andy has had his share of off court coaching.. But the camera is constantly on Rafa´s camp and his parents and that makes me even more annoyed with Toni because he knows he is constantly on camera.

That's just not true that Rafa doesn't encourage the coaching and it's all on the uncle. It's Rafa who looks up at him to spot the signals. We all saw Rafa look at Toni for guidance during the AO Berdych match and then follow his directions. How can you absolve Rafa when it's completely in his control whether to look up and to his left right at his uncle in an important moment to get guidance. Further- we saw at IW when the linesman caught Toni coaching Nadal and told the umpire. Nadal flat out lied and said they were just chatting in Spanish and the linesman couldn't know what they were saying. The look on Nadal's face was priceless when the umpire said the linesman knew Spanish and called him over to translate what Toni and Rafa were saying... pure coaching. Nadal then tried to cover himself further and dig the hole deeper by claiming that the linesman misunderstood because they were speaking in their local dialect... come on........

The bottom line is- it's absurd to suggest that Nadal has no control over the situation. Whether Toni is paid, not paid, says what he wants- doesn't matter. Rafa could easily say to him "don't coach or signal me" and if Toni persisted could ignore him... but Nadal doesn't.. He accepts it and looks for it.

Haddie-nuff wrote:Toni must be recognised as one of the most famous coaches ever -- you hear a but coming on... he steps over the line in my view. Rafa acknowledges in his book that he owes his career to his uncle but that now he wishes to take more control. Rafa does not encourage the on court coaching and I do get defensive of Rafa when he gets called a cheat because of what his Uncle does. Toni has (according to Rafa´s Grandfather Rafael senior) been the most difficult of his children and often way too outspoken. I for one wish he would keep it zipped if only for his nephews sake.

That all being said, please watch Djokovic´s camp.. they are far from innocent. Warwrinka´s own camp yesterday were being  somewhat vocal in their encouragement (did you understand what they were saying because I didnt). Our own Andy has had his share of off court coaching.. But the camera is constantly on Rafa´s camp and his parents and that makes me even more annoyed with Toni because he knows he is constantly on camera.

That's just not true that Rafa doesn't encourage the coaching and it's all on the uncle.  It's Rafa who looks up at him to spot the signals.  We all saw Rafa look at Toni for guidance during the AO Berdych match and then follow his directions.   How can you absolve Rafa when it's completely in his control whether to look up and to his left right at his uncle in an important moment to get guidance.  Further- we saw at IW when the linesman caught Toni coaching Nadal and told the umpire. Nadal flat out lied and said they were just chatting in Spanish and the linesman couldn't know what they were saying. The look on Nadal's face was priceless when the umpire said the linesman knew Spanish and called him over to translate what Toni and Rafa were saying... pure coaching. Nadal then tried to cover himself further and dig the hole deeper by claiming that the linesman misunderstood because they were speaking in their local dialect... come on........    

The bottom line is- it's absurd to suggest that Nadal has no control over the situation. Whether Toni is paid, not paid, says what he wants- doesn't matter.  Rafa could easily say to him "don't coach or signal me"  and if Toni persisted could ignore him... but Nadal doesn't.. He accepts it and looks for it.

Oh do give it a break..  Novak is constantly looking at his camp after every bad shot he makes.. they speak in Serbian so he has not much fear that a linesman would understand that would he.

Anyway Im not getting into an argument whether you believe Tony gets paid or not.. Rafa could tell Tony to do cartwheels do you think Toni would???  if you have not read the above article might I suggest you do

JuliusHMarx wrote:Clearly Uncle Toni not only cheats but is happy to admit he cheats simply because he doesn't agree with the rules. Imagine if everyone just ignored rules they don't like - there wouldn't be much of a sport left, so his actions are quite deplorable in that sense.

Personally I'd accept end-of-set consultations as a reasonable coaching rule.

This is spot on-- it's horrible for anyone to agree with the "I don't agree with the rules, so I don't follow them" Not only sport, but what would happen to our society, our kids if this was followed. If an NBA player doesn't think 10 feet is the right spot to shoot a free throw, should we allow him to move to 9 feet? Should a soccer player be allowed to carry the ball in his hands because he thinks the rules are old fashioned? Where does it end? These are PROFFESSIONAL athletes. They are part of a business- a sport that creates rules for these guys to play under. If you don't like the rules, go to another profession.

Born Slippy wrote:Sorry but I don't buy the "its Toni not Rafa" excuse. Rafa is 27 and knows the rules. If his coach is breaking them then that is his responsibility. Rafa could easily tell him to stop doing so and Toni would have to listen to his boss.

The fact that Rafa lied about receiving coaching earlier this year before realising the linesman spoke spanish does him no favours either.

There was a very poor Spanish vs Catalan excuse, in that specific incident.

If Marion Bartoli can have her father removed from the court, Nadal can ask to have that Toni be removed from the court, too. But does he want to?

Why do rafa fans not just accept that he did wrong instead of saying well so and so did it?
Others do do it, but they haven't been mentioned.

Frankly, I don't think blaming Djokovic for behavior that Nadal and his camp readily admit to does Nadal any favors. Djokovic's camp may coach or they may not, I have seen them cheer him loudly and Novak looks into the box. That is a different animal than receiving instruction. If Djokovic does receive coaching in violation of the rules he shouldn't do it. While I think the rule should be changed as long as it is the rule, it is the rule. Same applies to Nadal. I don't know why this insistence of saying Novak does it as well. This site is filled with people who watch tennis and follow it regularly and there are few Djoko fans on this forum. Yet, it is Nadal's actions that in this regard that are so blatant that he is the one that everyone thinks about when this issue comes up, and he himself and his coaches don't deny it and have been fined for it. Most people on this site are not Djoko lovers, if his conduct in this regard approached that of Nadal you can bet your bottom dollar people here who follow tennis would point it out. It isn't a conspiracy against Nadal they blatantly do it, admit to it, and refuse to stop; now that is a problem in my mind. And his fellow players like Wawrinka and others have called him out on it, while players don't say the same thing about Novak.

I'd agree with all of that were I not afraid of your chubby maxim.

JuliusHMarx wrote:I'd agree with all of that were I not afraid of your chubby maxim.

Julius my chubby is nothing to fear at least that is what I try to convince the ladies of. I must say I don't know if I can stand all this agreeing with me, it is throwing me for a loop, as I am used to your usual role as the Devil's advocate to everything I say. See how much smarter you have become in your diligent application of Socal's Maxim.

socal1976 wrote:I must say I don't know if I can stand all this agreeing with me, it is throwing me for a loop

In that case, can I also note how urbane, charming and witty you've been recently.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

socal1976 wrote:I must say I don't know if I can stand all this agreeing with me, it is throwing me for a loop

In that case, can I also note how urbane, charming and witty you've been recently.

Ok what is your angle and what have you done with Julius? I am convinced somewhere in England the real julius is duct taped to a chair and some impostor is torturing by agreeing with me and complimenting me on this site.

Haddie-nuff wrote:

Born Slippy wrote:Whether he is paid or not is an irrelevance (and Toni's quote in the article certainly gives the impression he is being paid). He is Rafa's coach and Rafa could easily tell him not to come to tournaments if he was concerned about the allegations.

Yes it was what everyone was saying about Andy´s mother and Novak´s parents as my memory serves me.
Believe what you like it is well documented that Toni refuses to accept payment for his coaching as he refuses to allow his nephew that sort of power over him.  It is ridiculous to say that Toni now should not follow Rafa in some, not all of his matches you must have noted, since he has coached him from the age of 4.  Would YOU after this man, whether he is right or wrong,  brought you  to the pinnacle of your  profession now  tell him to get on his bike... Give me strength. Rafa cant ban him .. what a ludicrous suggestion

There are obvious difficulties with family cords in situations like this. However, if as you say Rafa has told Toni on many occasions to stop coaching him (do you have a link?) and Toni has totally ignored him then the only step open to Rafa would be to tell him not to attend. If not, then the cheating is his responsibility.

socal1976 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

socal1976 wrote:I must say I don't know if I can stand all this agreeing with me, it is throwing me for a loop

In that case, can I also note how urbane, charming and witty you've been recently.

Ok what is your angle and what have you done with Julius? I am convinced somewhere in England the real julius is duct taped to a chair and some impostor is torturing by agreeing with me and complimenting me on this site.

It's me, I've hijacked his account. Why else do you think he was so patient with the poo-flinging yesterday?

I had to gag him though, the attempts at comedy were simply too much to bear after a while.

Please don't bust out the banhammer Julius, you know I love you really.

Born Slippy wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:

Born Slippy wrote:Whether he is paid or not is an irrelevance (and Toni's quote in the article certainly gives the impression he is being paid). He is Rafa's coach and Rafa could easily tell him not to come to tournaments if he was concerned about the allegations.

Yes it was what everyone was saying about Andy´s mother and Novak´s parents as my memory serves me.
Believe what you like it is well documented  that Toni refuses to accept payment for his coaching as he refuses to allow his nephew that sort of power over him.  It is ridiculous to say that Toni now should not follow Rafa in some, not all of his matches you must have noted, since he has coached him from the age of 4.  Would YOU after this man, whether he is right or wrong,  brought you  to the pinnacle of your  profession now  tell him to get on his bike... Give me strength. Rafa cant ban him .. what a ludicrous suggestion

There are obvious difficulties with family cords in situations like this. However, if as you say Rafa has told Toni on many occasions to stop coaching him (do you have a link?) and Toni has totally ignored him then the only step open to Rafa would be to tell him not to attend. If not, then the cheating is his responsibility.

Try reading RAFA his autobiography

Silver wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

socal1976 wrote:I must say I don't know if I can stand all this agreeing with me, it is throwing me for a loop

In that case, can I also note how urbane, charming and witty you've been recently.

Ok what is your angle and what have you done with Julius? I am convinced somewhere in England the real julius is duct taped to a chair and some impostor is torturing by agreeing with me and complimenting me on this site.

It's me, I've hijacked his account. Why else do you think he was so patient with the poo-flinging yesterday?

I had to gag him though, the attempts at comedy were simply too much to bear after a while.

Please don't bust out the banhammer Julius, you know I love you really.

"The small print giveth and the large print taketh away"
Double extra points for spotting the (inverse) reference.

"It's nothing personal against Rafa or against Toni, we know that Toni is always trying to help Rafa," Wawrinka told reporters. "That's normal. That's part of the game. But when it's too much, it's too much.
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The above is a quote from Stan... yes he has a right to complain not arguing about that. However more griping is done on this forum than from Rafa´s opponent who was the one that had it in his power to make an official complaint. Why didn´t he ? only the players can help shut Toni up (and I agree he should be shut up) but if he wont listen to Rafa then maybe he will listen to the APT.
I cannot continue with a debate that is leading absolutely nowhere... it is down to those who are in a position to bring a halt to it. But I will reitterrate what I have said in the past .. the rules are the rules but they must apply to everyone (as with time warnings) There is no consistency and this is where the problem lies imo
And before anyone mentions it THERE HAS MOST DEFINITELY been coaching of other players and I wont back down from that. So yes stamp it out or let the coaching be permitted for all players.. one or the other.

Haddie-nuff wrote:"It's nothing personal against Rafa or against Toni, we know that Toni is always trying to help Rafa," Wawrinka told reporters. "That's normal. That's part of the game. But when it's too much, it's too much.
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The above is a quote from Stan... yes he has a right to complain not arguing about that. However more griping is done on this forum than from Rafa´s opponent who was the one that had it in his power to make an official complaint. Why didn´t he ? only the players can help shut Toni up (and I agree he should be shut up) but if he wont listen to Rafa then maybe he will listen to the APT.

Toni thinks the rule is archaic, H-n. Nadal was given a time warning in the match as well. Do you recall Bernardes in the Berdych-Nadal match? Stan has clearly stated that the umpires do not do anything because of where Nadal is in the player echelons. A US Police Officer has a better chance of writing a traffic ticket for Obama, then Bernardes behaving like Mourier.

Haddie-nuff wrote:I cannot continue with a debate that is leading absolutely nowhere... it is down to those who are in a position to bring a halt to it. But I will reitterrate what I have said in the past .. the rules are the rules but they must apply to everyone (as with time warnings) There is no consistency and this is where the problem lies imo
And before anyone mentions it THERE HAS MOST DEFINITELY been coaching of other players and I wont back down from that. So yes stamp it out or let the coaching be permitted for all players.. one or the other.

The lack of consistency is very clearly related to the ranking of the player. This is abused as you go higher up in the food chain. SoCal has clearly articulated why using another player as an excuse is an excuse. Should not the players in higher echelons lead by example? After all they represent the sport. In a very extreme example, LA doped, should Nadal?

In a very extreme example, LA doped, should Nadal?

=======================

Oh for God's sake, Laverfan, invite posters to take the whole thread in a different direction to throw more **** at Nadal why don't you?

Back to the point of your own thread. Toni Nadal has an unjustified and irreverant view regarding on-court coaching. He is wrong to indulge and even more wrong to publicly state that he has no regard for the rule. Because of his arrogant standpoint and his refusal to abide by the rules he brings himself down, and more importantly, Rafa. Mourier in particular, has no qualms about penalising Nadal for it as he did in 2010 at Wimbledon (which resulted in the fine) and as he did yesterday. Mourier applies the rules of the game as he sees fit during the course of the match, and if he does not consider it enough to penalise Nadal further for the offence when asked to by Wawrinka then that is up to him. Whist I find Toni Nadal's views arrogant and incorrect, I also read Wawrinka's presser and thought he came across as churlish with his "coaching before every point" statement as he actually ought to look at his own performance and focus on the responsibility he has to bear of not taking his very good chances rather than moaning like a whiny schoolboy. But then more fool Toni Nadal for presenting the opportunity for him to do so and move all the focus to that transgression.

Every single aspect of Nadal is poured over in minute detail to a level I still find astounding. And I personally feel that the consensus of the thread has been that there is no justification for the breaking of this rule. I don't see any debate there. However, I also don't think it untoward to highlight that Vadja has been taken to task for coaching - there was an incident at the US Open, wasn't there? - because that cannot be an isolated incident, I fail to believe it, and I think the use of the Serbian language masks that - my opinion.

Smashing a racquet is breaking a rule, saying to an umpire "don't tell me the bleeping rules" is breaking a rule, taking 28 seconds is breaking a rule; I think it's been long established on here that none of the top players are perfect. On this particular point, Team Nadal set themselves up because of Toni's lack of disregard and I won't dispute it. However, like it not, whether he's your favourite player or not, Nadal retaining the World No. 1 and becoming the Year End champion still remains a magnificent achievement because of all that he has won this year, regardless of the mis-guided views held by his coach.

Cav wrote:In a very extreme example, LA doped, should Nadal?

=======================

Oh for God's sake, Laverfan, invite posters to take the whole thread in a different direction to throw more **** at Nadal why don't you?

There was a very good attempt, if player A can do it why not player B. Did I also not state extreme in my sentence?

Cav wrote:Back to the point of your own thread.  Toni Nadal has an unjustified and irreverant view regarding on-court coaching.  He is wrong to indulge and even more wrong to publicly state that he has no regard for the rule.  Because of his arrogant standpoint and his refusal to abide by the rules he brings himself down, and more importantly, Rafa.  Mourier in particular, has no qualms about penalising Nadal for it as he did in 2010 at Wimbledon (which resulted in the fine) and as he did yesterday.  Mourier applies the rules of the game as he sees fit during the course of the match, and if he does not consider it enough to penalise Nadal further for the offence when asked to by Wawrinka then that is up to him.  Whist I find Toni Nadal's views arrogant and incorrect, I also read Wawrinka's presser and thought he came across as churlish with his "coaching before every point" statement as he actually ought to look at his own performance and focus on the responsibility he has to bear of not taking his very good chances rather than moaning like a whiny schoolboy.  But then more fool Toni Nadal for presenting the opportunity for him to do so and move all the focus to that transgression.

Wawrinka missed his chances and hence paid the price of winning a set or two. He is not the first to accuse Team Nadal. There is very little separation between Toni and Nadal. Does he not get thanked and credited for every title Nadal wins? You are also confusing Bernardes with Mourier.

Cav wrote:Every single aspect of Nadal is poured over in minute detail to a level I still find astounding.  And I personally feel that the consensus of the thread has been that there is no justification for the breaking of this rule.  I don't see any debate there.  However, I also don't think it untoward to highlight that Vadja has been taken to task for coaching - there was an incident at the US Open, wasn't there? - because that cannot be an isolated incident, I fail to believe it, and I think the use of the Serbian language masks that - my opinion.

Should we appoint a translator in every player's box then? Also, would you care to find and post a link on the the Vajda incident. You seem to agree on coaching being rule breaking, yet justify it in the next sentence.

Cav wrote:Smashing a racquet is breaking a rule, saying to an umpire "don't tell me the bleeping rules" is breaking a rule, taking 28 seconds is breaking a rule; I think it's been long established on here that none of the top players are perfect.  On this particular point, Team Nadal set themselves up because of Toni's lack of disregard and I won't dispute it.  However, like it not, whether he's your favourite player or not, Nadal retaining the World No. 1 and becoming the Year End champion still remains a magnificent achievement because of all that he has won this year, regardless of the mis-guided views held by his coach.    

The USO incident you are referring to also resulted in a fine, did it not? It is rather interesting that justifications for breaking rules are now based on whether peers respect the same rule or not.

This is not questioning Nadal's YE achievement. This is questioning the respect for the sport and it's spirit. The desire to win has decimated the Gentle aspect of the Sport in White. Should I quote my favorite example of Sportsmanship - aka Roger Taylor v Bjorn Borg…?

Silver wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

socal1976 wrote:I must say I don't know if I can stand all this agreeing with me, it is throwing me for a loop

In that case, can I also note how urbane, charming and witty you've been recently.

Ok what is your angle and what have you done with Julius? I am convinced somewhere in England the real julius is duct taped to a chair and some impostor is torturing by agreeing with me and complimenting me on this site.

It's me, I've hijacked his account. Why else do you think he was so patient with the poo-flinging yesterday?

I had to gag him though, the attempts at comedy were simply too much to bear after a while.

Please don't bust out the banhammer Julius, you know I love you really.

LOL! Silver, some of us wear the title of 3 times banned by Julius with a badge of honor, although I can't say I have not deserved it. I like to walk up to the line sometimes and dance a merry jig over said line. I sympathize with you on Julius and his comedic ability which can clear a room faster than the late great Dom Deluise doing a full nude pole dance.

Cav wrote:In a very extreme example, LA doped, should Nadal?

=======================

Oh for God's sake, Laverfan, invite posters to take the whole thread in a different direction to throw more **** at Nadal why don't you?

Back to the point of your own thread.  Toni Nadal has an unjustified and irreverant view regarding on-court coaching.  He is wrong to indulge and even more wrong to publicly state that he has no regard for the rule.  Because of his arrogant standpoint and his refusal to abide by the rules he brings himself down, and more importantly, Rafa.  Mourier in particular, has no qualms about penalising Nadal for it as he did in 2010 at Wimbledon (which resulted in the fine) and as he did yesterday.  Mourier applies the rules of the game as he sees fit during the course of the match, and if he does not consider it enough to penalise Nadal further for the offence when asked to by Wawrinka then that is up to him.  Whist I find Toni Nadal's views arrogant and incorrect, I also read Wawrinka's presser and thought he came across as churlish with his "coaching before every point" statement as he actually ought to look at his own performance and focus on the responsibility he has to bear of not taking his very good chances rather than moaning like a whiny schoolboy.  But then more fool Toni Nadal for presenting the opportunity for him to do so and move all the focus to that transgression.

Every single aspect of Nadal is poured over in minute detail to a level I still find astounding.  And I personally feel that the consensus of the thread has been that there is no justification for the breaking of this rule.  I don't see any debate there.  However, I also don't think it untoward to highlight that Vadja has been taken to task for coaching - there was an incident at the US Open, wasn't there? - because that cannot be an isolated incident, I fail to believe it, and I think the use of the Serbian language masks that - my opinion.

Smashing a racquet is breaking a rule, saying to an umpire "don't tell me the bleeping rules" is breaking a rule, taking 28 seconds is breaking a rule; I think it's been long established on here that none of the top players are perfect.  On this particular point, Team Nadal set themselves up because of Toni's lack of disregard and I won't dispute it.  However, like it not, whether he's your favourite player or not, Nadal retaining the World No. 1 and becoming the Year End champion still remains a magnificent achievement because of all that he has won this year, regardless of the mis-guided views held by his coach.    

What a great post CAV and I agree with you absoloutely ... put very succinctly I might add.
Particularly your opening statement  

socal1976 wrote:

Silver wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

socal1976 wrote:I must say I don't know if I can stand all this agreeing with me, it is throwing me for a loop

In that case, can I also note how urbane, charming and witty you've been recently.

Ok what is your angle and what have you done with Julius? I am convinced somewhere in England the real julius is duct taped to a chair and some impostor is torturing by agreeing with me and complimenting me on this site.

It's me, I've hijacked his account. Why else do you think he was so patient with the poo-flinging yesterday?

I had to gag him though, the attempts at comedy were simply too much to bear after a while.

Please don't bust out the banhammer Julius, you know I love you really.

LOL! Silver, some of us wear the title of 3 times banned by Julius with a badge of honor, although I can't say I have not deserved it. I like to walk up to the line sometimes and dance a merry jig over said line. I sympathize with you on Julius and his comedic ability which can clear a room faster than the late great Dom Deluise doing a full nude pole dance.

Have you heard the one about the Swiss, the Spaniard and the Serb....