Will the French rock up to play?

First topic message reminder :

French flair is dead. The myth lives on amongst some less perceptive media outlets, possibly because it's nicely alliterates, but the corpse of ambitious French rugby  was buried five years ago.

No team has been ensconced in more allegations, accusations and instances of biting, gouging, testicle grasping, hair pulling or head butting than the French.

As recently as the 2011 RWC final Rougerie, realising the game was up took the opportunity to gouge McCaws eyes.  

The rugby landscape is just littered with instances too numerous to mention and even highly respected publications will freely publish the view that this kind of illegal play is just part and parcel of French culture, without fear of litigation or reprisal.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/france/4945001/Eye-gouging-just-a-way-of-life-in-French-rugby.html

My question is: which France will turn up? The side who play rugby, or the side who want to permanently injure and disfigure a member of the opposition? And will this weekend's officials have the guts to remove them from the field when they do?

Statistics since 1st January 2000:

South Africa – 79 yellow cards – 4 red cards – 2.1 matches per yellow card
Argentina – 58 yellow cards – 0 red cards – 2.2 matches per yellow card
Wales – 55 yellow cards – 1 red card – 3 matches per yellow card
Australia – 52 yellow cards – 1 red card – 3.2 matches per yellow card
England – 46 yellow cards – 2 red cards – 3.4 matches per yellow card
New Zealand – 48 yellow cards – 0 red cards – 3.5 matches per yellow card
Scotland – 40 yellow cards – 2 red cards – 3.6 matches per yellow card
Ireland – 34 yellow cards – 1 red cards – 4.5 matches per yellow card
France – 27 yellow cards – 0 red cards – 6 matches per yellow card

Thanks Billtong. Think those stats say it all. France have the best diciplinary record of any nation. Not surprising really. They're generally not dirty at all in my experience.

it dont look good tho for SA and Wales Saturday  

In fairness, Guns, those stats don't 'say it all', as interesting as they are. They don't take into account harsh yellows, nor incidents where a yellow was deserved but not shown. Take England, for instance: there was a good few years when Martin Johnson was captain where they'd kill the ball in their own 22 time after time and there'd never be as much as a whiff of a yellow (at Twickenham).

Then again, when Johnson became manager they had a spell of picking up a yellow every game, so maybe it evens out!

Sure but dont you think that if France's intention every time they take to the field is to perminently injure they may have picked up at least 1 red in 13 years?

Of course, and they'd have picked up more yellows too.

Use of the phrase 'rock up' should carry a mandatory ban on here.

(Unless you're under 12. Or quoting someone else, obviously).

Biltong wrote:France was in fact one of the least carded teams

Bil, don't go peeing on GEs parade of assertions with your tedious facts.

Casartelli wrote:Use of the phrase 'rock up' should carry a mandatory ban on here.

(Unless you're under 12.  Or quoting someone else, obviously).

Ha! I didn't use it. My original title was modded - so you've just insulted BT. Well done.

What was the original title?

GunsGerms wrote:Sure but dont you think that if France's intention every time they take to the field is to perminently injure they may have picked up at least 1 red in 13 years?

No they get away with it. Like the Rougerie incident. Frankly they practise it so much they get good at it.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Sure but dont you think that if France's intention every time they take to the field is to perminently injure they may have picked up at least 1 red in 13 years?

No they get away with it. Like the Rougerie incident. Frankly they practise it so much they get good at it.

it's abundantly clear to all non one-eyed viewers that there is only 1 team in world rugby that "gets away with it" more consistently than everyone else....their captain even writes about it....

Ah. The envy, the fear, the conspiracy. Just say it...go on,
Admit you're a bit jealous. It will release you from your loathing.

On that note.....over and out. If anybody would like to start a thread on the fallacy of Gallic flair and actually talk rugby I'll join in

was just pointing out that people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones    

Well I tried but the thread was derailed by posters making a personal attack on me who had no interest in debating the topic.

ultra wrote:On that note.....over and out. If anybody would like to start a thread on the fallacy of Gallic flair and actually talk rugby I'll join in

you made the mistake of thinking a thread started by  would be about rugby...

quinsforever wrote:was just pointing out that people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones    

I don't think NZ have a reputation for gouging and head butting the way France do. As the article I posted points out.

Might as well lock the thread along with the others. Quite a collection now.

Yeah, Ill bite. i think the French are losing what makes them French, in rugby terms. I reckon despite the wealth their league is a shambles and increasingly built around grunt ala the English AP. As a result France's traditional flair is without doubt waning.

always a bad omen (in terms of the thread being a WUM) when it turns out the Mods had to change the title of the OP... 

GloriousEmpire wrote:Well I tried but the thread was derailed by posters making a personal attack on me who had no interest in debating the topic.

The topic is utter nonsense. Not much to debate.

Cyril wrote:Might as well lock the thread along with the others. Quite a collection now.

I've had one thread locked. Ever. And it was because it was disrupted by other posters and for no other reasons.

You need to take a serious look at your behaviour. Hypocrite.

GunsGerms wrote:Yeah, Ill bite. i think the French are losing what makes them French, in rugby terms. I reckon despite the wealth their league is a shambles and increasingly built around grunt ala the English AP. As a result France's traditional flair is without doubt waning.

Yep. Another perspective is that they've replaced their low percentage game with a more professional approach to set piece solidity and structure. A la England...

GunsGerms wrote:Yeah, Ill bite. i think the French are losing what makes them French, in rugby terms. I reckon despite the wealth their league is a shambles and increasingly built around grunt ala the English AP. As a result France's traditional flair is without doubt waning.

i'll bite back...i think that the scrum laws are what has largely been responsible for the grunt-fest as you call it. If we turn the scrum into a stable competition where 8 have to stay fully bound and push that will create lots of space for the backs. especially if deliberate scrum collapses were penalised plus 10 yards.

personally i quite like some parts of the grunt fest though. but i do think the scrum laws are ironically the thing most at fault for over-crowded midfields.

At international level, it started under Laporte. He brought a pragmatism to their play, which they needed, but which seemed to take away some of that instinctive off-the-cuff rugby we used to see. I have to say though that I don't think France are alone in being quite risk-averse these days. I wish Wales would cut loose more often, because I think we have the personnel.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Yeah, Ill bite. i think the French are losing what makes them French, in rugby terms. I reckon despite the wealth their league is a shambles and increasingly built around grunt ala the English AP. As a result France's traditional flair is without doubt waning.

Yep. Another perspective is that they've replaced their low percentage game with a more professional approach to set piece solidity and structure. A la England...

Maybe their national team but the management for their league and clubs is quite literally all over the place and fairly far behind the Irish provinces for example. By all accounts basis skills amoungst French academy players are quite poor.

They seem to have a problem with foreign imports denying development for French qualified players. That's no news. But they were World Cup finalists. So they must be doing something right.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:At international level, it started under Laporte. He brought a pragmatism to their play, which they needed, but which seemed to take away some of that instinctive off-the-cuff rugby we used to see. I have to say though that I don't think France are alone in being quite risk-averse these days. I wish Wales would cut loose more often, because I think we have the personnel.

Agree re Wales. Traditionally Wales were quite fond of passing it around but Gatland has reigned this in a bit and developed a more structured approach. Interestingly Wales now have their best set of backs for 30 years.

In all fairness GE as with the BOD incident when a couple of ABs tried to break his neck the Rougerie incident was not found so maybe you should edit the Original post.

It might also be worth asking who the ref is for the game as the usual fear for France is they get some "anglo" who will just be falling all over themselves to let the ABs win like Joubert in the WC final...luckily this time they have Owens who might give them a fair crack...

GloriousEmpire wrote:They seem to have a problem with foreign imports denying development for French qualified players. That's no news. But they were World Cup finalists. So they must be doing something right.

they've been rwc finalists 3 times.

GloriousEmpire wrote:They seem to have a problem with foreign imports denying development for French qualified players. That's no news. But they were World Cup finalists. So they must be doing something right.

Their league still produces a mountain of talented French players. They have greater depth than any other NH side for that reason. Their problem is most of their clubs are notoriously disorganised and horrible 10 man teams like Toulon are seen as the way forward due to their success.

If only all French teams were like Toulouse.

gotta love nigel owens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFPd0CbdOCc

quinsforever wrote:gotta love nigel owens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFPd0CbdOCc

That's Pro12 quins...a Better Class of Entertainment

Low crowd numbers have their benefits, it seems! -  means you always hear the funny chit chat between refs and players, which on some days is 60% of the fun!

this is my second favourite nigel owens clip. love that he's not afraid to be pragmatic and think outside the box. slavish rule-following does not a good match make.

http://www.rugbydump.com/2012/04/2508/referee-nigel-owens-chats-to-the-tmo-on-an-iphone

GunsGerms wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Well I tried but the thread was derailed by posters making a personal attack on me who had no interest in debating the topic.

The topic is utter nonsense. Not much to debate.

  being an (-!-)rse again

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Sure but dont you think that if France's intention every time they take to the field is to perminently injure they may have picked up at least 1 red in 13 years?

No they get away with it. Like the Rougerie incident. Frankly they practise it so much they get good at it.

I think kneeing and simultanously punching someone in the head as McCaw did to France's Parra was a more dangerous act.

Get a grip. I know McCaw is superhuman but managing to coordinate that whilst also pilfering the ball expertly is probably even beyond his super human ability. Besides para is a snivelling little play actor and he deserves the odd accidental knee to the head for all the penalties he milks by diving and acting like a wet footballer.

GunsGerms wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Sure but dont you think that if France's intention every time they take to the field is to perminently injure they may have picked up at least 1 red in 13 years?

No they get away with it. Like the Rougerie incident. Frankly they practise it so much they get good at it.

I think kneeing and simultanously punching someone in the head as McCaw did to France's Parra was a more dangerous act.

If this thread is straying into that particular territory, in the interests of balance, Heaslip on McCaw was far worse. Totally gutless (double) cheapshot.

quinsforever wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:They seem to have a problem with foreign imports denying development for French qualified players. That's no news. But they were World Cup finalists. So they must be doing something right.

they've been rwc finalists 3 times.

Exactly. But never quite won it. RWC chokers perhaps?

GloriousEmpire wrote:Get a grip. I know McCaw is superhuman but managing to coordinate that whilst also pilfering the ball expertly is probably even beyond his super human ability. Besides para is a snivelling little play actor and he deserves the odd accidental knee to the head for all the penalties he milks by diving and acting like a wet footballer.

It was pretty cynical by McCaw and frankly quite dangerous. Parra was knocked out at the time.

It's not tiddlywinks. However gouging is crossing a line. You can't accidentally eye gouge someone.

Casartelli wrote:
If this thread is straying into that particular territory, in the interests of balance, Heaslip on McCaw was far worse.  Totally gutless (double) cheapshot.

What does Heaslip have to do with this debate?

Sam Warburtons tip tackle on Vincent Clerc was also a disgrace. Completely cowardly. Sorry whats your point again?

GloriousEmpire wrote:It's not tiddlywinks. However gouging is crossing a line. You can't accidentally eye gouge someone.

He had his hand on his face but didnt gouge him. It is possible to accidently have your hand on someones face.

Probably that McCaw is often the target of cheap shots. Cooper, heaslip, beast, Rougerie, Hartley, Greyling all leap to mind. He takes it and doesn't complain like the legend he is. Shame the judiciary never show up...but we've learned to accept that. It seems only when an opposition player is injured, however accudentally that you are the saviour of the weak and defenseless...showing your bias I suggest.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Probably that McCaw is often the target of cheap shots. Cooper, heaslip, beast, Rougerie, Hartley, Greyling all leap to mind. He takes it and doesn't complain like the legend he is. Shame the judiciary never show up...but we've learned to accept that. It seems only when an opposition player is injured, however accudentally that you are the saviour of the weak and defenseless...showing your bias I suggest.

Most flankers are targeted. Players who cheat are targeted the most though and rightly so.

Shame the judiciary never showed up when Parra was laid out in a WC final. Totally unaccaptable.

Well the judiciary don't tend to show up for accidents. However gouging, they should do something about. Shame they don't bother.

And oh, the McCaw cheats thing? I guess the IRB panel that have him so many worlds best player awards year after year disagree. Intake their opinion over yours.

GunsGerms wrote:

Casartelli wrote:
If this thread is straying into that particular territory, in the interests of balance, Heaslip on McCaw was far worse.  Totally gutless (double) cheapshot.

What does Heaslip have to do with this debate?

Sam Warburtons tip tackle on Vincent Clerc was also a disgrace. Completely cowardly. Sorry whats your point again?

I was adding some balance. But now I've realised that it made it look as though I was agreeing with this Glorious Empire chap, which of course I had no intention of implying. I'd rather take a knee to the head.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Well the judiciary don't tend to show up for accidents. However gouging, they should do something about. Shame they don't bother.

And oh, the McCaw cheats thing? I guess the IRB panel that have him so many worlds best player awards year after year disagree. Intake their opinion over yours.

Funny how when an AB intentionally injures someone it is usually an "accident". Spot a trend there? In any case even if it was an "accident" there is plently of precident for players having to show up to citings to put forward their case in "accidents".

The IRB panel? You mean Tana Umaga and friends? He may have deserved it once but there were at least a few players better than him in '09.

McCaw is very good. But he is also a cheat. I used not to be able to watch the AB matches as every time the referee turned his back, the ABs had someone get away with offside. used to send me apoplectic.

to be fair though i dont see the kiwis as particularly dirtier or cleaner than other nations on average. they are definitely better at occupying the grey area of refereeing interpretation though.