Do people really hate Manchester United?

First topic message reminder :

Following the comments of Phil Jones today I wanted to ask you guys, is it true that people really hate Man UTD and want to see them fail?

I personally don't hate them, even as a Liverpool fan. However I think some of their fans that I know personally are as daft as a brush and have a belief that football started with the premier league and that anything before it didn't happen.

Tophat, I dislike a large number of footballers, for sure!

The problem for me with Man U, is that there has been an almost unbroken stream of some of my least liked players there.

Chelsea of the last few years have been an awful bunch, but prior to Mourinho's team, they didn't bother me much.

But I've even had spells of not liking my own team much. I support West Ham but I've had a very low opinion of more players than I care to think about. Anton Ferdinand was a particularly unloveable character as was Matthew Etherington. Ironically I quite like public enemy number 1, Frank Lampard.

So it's not a Man U thing. Scholes is thoroughly likeable, Carrick is a nice guy, Beckham was a bit of a dandy but was basically a decent bloke. Sheringham was a chap but he always amused me. I liked Van Nistelrooy at the time and even more so now since Ferguson's book revealed he was one of the few players who wasn't scared of Keane.

Well when you see United repeatedly getting let off and aided by domestic officials and getting undeserved points, well I agree with Murdoch they are easy to hate. Rooney is a thoroughly unappealing character who probably would be a bar room bouncer if he didn't play football if he was lucky. He is a terrible flagship for a major club like United. I mean looking back at things, as much as I loved Cantona he was a real arrogant and hotheaded ahole as well. Keane was another great player who also was more than a little deranged and unlikeable.

socal1976 wrote:Well when you see United repeatedly getting let off and aided by domestic officials and getting undeserved points, well I agree with Murdoch they are easy to hate. Rooney is a thoroughly unappealing character who probably would be a bar room bouncer if he didn't play football if he was lucky. He is a terrible flagship for a major club like United. I mean looking back at things, as much as I loved Cantona he was a real arrogant and hotheaded ahole as well. Keane was another great player who also was more than a little deranged and unlikeable.

Ridiculous spurious rubbish.

Hopefully even those who don't care for Man Utd will pause to reflect this morning on the extraordinary life of Bill Foulkes following his departure from the scene.
Almost pre-dates the Busby Babes, England International in his early twenties, but never thereafter, survived Munich and thrived with the new generation, scored the goal to beat Real Madrid in the 1968 Semi on the way to triumph against Benfica.
What a great career!

kwinigolfer wrote:Hopefully even those who don't care for Man Utd will pause to reflect this morning on the extraordinary life of Bill Foulkes following his departure from the scene.
Almost pre-dates the Busby Babes, England International in his early twenties, but never thereafter, survived Munich and thrived with the new generation, scored the goal to beat Real Madrid in the 1968 Semi on the way to triumph against Benfica.
What a great career!

 

Well said, Kwini.  Bill Foulkes was a rock for Manchester United and yes, he served them well and with dignity throughout an illustrious career, without ever getting half the recognition of the likes of Stiles, Charlton, Law or Best.  

He did his job well, stayed on the right side of referees, never had a bad word for anybody and retired from the game with the admiration of his peers both on the pitch and the terraces.  

I was a truly saddened to hear of his death and I am sure that Manchester United will remember him appropriately.  I hope that other clubs take the trouble to pay deserved respect to a true servant of the game and a decent person.

What I hope does NOT happen, is a regurgitation of the immature and irresponsible Munich taunting behaviour of some clubs fans, almost all of whom are too young to know what it was all about.  Bill doesn't deserve that.  

To Manchester United fans, if there is some bad behaviour from the sick element, don't rise to it.   Bill wouldn't have wanted that.  

Be bigger than the yobs.  For Bill.

Next couple of league fixtures is spurs away and everton at home. Should be able to pay our respects in one of those without too much incident. I know the everton fans have always shown class when it comes to Hillsborough.

Funnily enough though everton v united is supposed to be one of the worse ganes games for trouble. Always a massive police presence during these games

Apart from Rooney, which players from United do you hate Socal and HM??

RVP can suck it also.

You're just butthurt about RVP cos he left Arsenal and joined United and then won a League Title in his first year as well as the Golden boot

Honestly though, apart from Rooney I don't see anyone so objectionable. Valencia, Kagawa, Carrick, Hernandez- it's not as if they scream out of the team-sheet as hatable people.

HM Murdoch wrote:Tophat, I dislike a large number of footballers, for sure!

The problem for me with Man U, is that there has been an almost unbroken stream of some of my least liked players there.

Chelsea of the last few years have been an awful bunch, but prior to Mourinho's team, they didn't bother me much.

But I've even had spells of not liking my own team much. I support West Ham but I've had a very low opinion of more players than I care to think about. Anton Ferdinand was a particularly unloveable character as was Matthew Etherington. Ironically I quite like public enemy number 1, Frank Lampard.

So it's not a Man U thing. Scholes is thoroughly likeable, Carrick is a nice guy, Beckham was a bit of a dandy but was basically a decent bloke. Sheringham was a chap but he always amused me. I liked Van Nistelrooy at the time and even more so now since Ferguson's book revealed he was one of the few players who wasn't scared of Keane.

How can you like Fatty and hate Etherington and Anton? Dont recall either of those mocking mortified Americans over 9/11

Starlight wrote:You're just butthurt about RVP cos he left Arsenal and joined United and then won a League Title in his first year as well as the Golden boot

Honestly though, apart from Rooney I don't see anyone so objectionable. Valencia, Kagawa, Carrick, Hernandez- it's not as if they scream out of the team-sheet as hatable people.

When we win the title this year and Ramsey wins PFA player of the year he can stick that golden boot in his arsse and do a merry little gig all over scenic Manchester. Nostrafreakingdamus has spoken it is a settled matter.

socal1976 wrote:

Starlight wrote:You're just butthurt about RVP cos he left Arsenal and joined United and then won a League Title in his first year as well as the Golden boot

Honestly though, apart from Rooney I don't see anyone so objectionable. Valencia, Kagawa, Carrick, Hernandez- it's not as if they scream out of the team-sheet as hatable people.

When we win the title this year and Ramsey wins PFA player of the year he can stick that golden boot in his arsse and do a merry little gig all over scenic Manchester. Nostrafreakingdamus has spoken it is a settled matter.

pmsl
Jose won't let Arsenal win the title I'm afraid; even though I admit Ramsey has been player of the year so far.

socal1976 wrote:Well when you see United repeatedly getting let off and aided by domestic officials and getting undeserved points, well I agree with Murdoch they are easy to hate. Rooney is a thoroughly unappealing character who probably would be a bar room bouncer if he didn't play football if he was lucky. He is a terrible flagship for a major club like United. I mean looking back at things, as much as I loved Cantona he was a real arrogant and hotheaded ahole as well. Keane was another great player who also was more than a little deranged and unlikeable.

Would you like me to get you a pint of bitter, or can you be bitter all by yourself?  

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:How can you like Fatty and hate Etherington and Anton? Dont recall either of those mocking mortified Americans over 9/11

As a West Ham fan I like him because he never let the club down by racking up gambling debts which they had to help pay off or split the dressing room by believing the preposterous idea he was a little gangsta.

That 9/11 incident was pretty shameful (as was the Ayia Napa video) but it was, what, 12 years ago? It's not like he has a track record of behaving that way. I can't think of him stepping out of line since then?

excuse my ignorance but who's fatty?

compelling and rich wrote:excuse my ignorance but who's fatty?

Frank Lampard.

Bit harsh but he did, in his younger days at West Ham, have an extra layer or two!

ah i see, don't remember the 9/11 stuff or the ayia napa video. while i do think he is sometimes overrated since playing for chelsea he's got his head down and got the best out of his talent

I dont 'hate' united as such. I do enjoy some schandenfruende when the lose. I guess you can put it down to them dominating the various trophies over the years and just being sick of it. lol Not forgetting fergie time, harrassing refs etc. Having been to OT last year as an away fan, you can only admire what they've done over the years.

However, I cannot abide plastic gloryhunting fans who 'support' utd and who refer to utd as 'we' yet have never been to OT and never will. Particulary if they live in a town/city that already has a pro club and are crying out for support.

AYe bredvan. Palace lose so many fans to not only the other non local London clubs but also UNITED!!

I dont hate United for that though. It annoys me that fans dont get what support is all about though!!

I think I probably hated Fergie more than any individual player. An ungracious winner and an even worse loser. Rarely, if ever, gave praise to the opposition, haranged officials, banned journos from press conferences if they asked the wrong kinds of questions.

Its understandable his attitude would rub off on the players - he's probably more to blame for people hating United than anyone else.

Still thoroughly dislike Shrek...more for his attitude during the 2010 World Cup than anything else. Apart from that I don't have any particular issues with the other players.

Also liking United more as a club, now that they're merely mortal.

cant really argue with any of your points about fergie dyre, but all those same attributes are what made him such a driven person and brilliant manager. he had the biggest will to win i have ever seen i and i wouldn't change him for the world  

also not a fan of rooney, but while he's playing like he currently is i cant argue

I can't dislike Rooney.

Hard worker, loves the game, passionate player. Can't ask for more

Bit of a chav.

So what, I don't go drinking with him... 

I think fergie is the reason Man U are disliked . But not just for the reasons given. He is disliked because he was so successful.

mystiroakey wrote:I can't dislike Rooney.

Hard worker, loves the game, passionate player. Can't ask for more

Bit of a chav.

So what, I don't go drinking with him... 

I think fergie is the reason Man U are disliked . But not just for the reasons given. He is disliked because he was so successful.

handed two transfer requests in, while playing poorly. needs constant arm around him to get the best out of him and thinks he's bigger than the club. what kind of ego thinks he can dictate the clubs transfers dealings.

tevez worked hard on the pitch as well and hes still a rat!

Man United fans' attitude towards Tevez does make me hate them. A player wants to leave us?! How very dare he! And now hes revved up proving us wrong!

I love Rooney. I love a snarly player, fire and passion

Rooney again was lucky not to be sent off as he again hit a player late and off the ball right in front of the official. Personally, I rate him as a great talent, but I can't really cheer for his success because he seems a completely undesirable character with very little ingratiating about him.

And sure a great deal of the hatred of United comes from them being successful and dominant, it goes with the territory. But that does not mean that Ferguson is not a priick, or that he did not intimidate officials, players, the media, or the opposition. I personally found his book knocking a great deal of his best players to be claseless and egotistical, and in fact the accusations made it harder for Moyes to calm Rooney down and hurt the club and did not help them. Still you can't argue with the man's results but I can't see Wenger doing a tell all book trashing his ex-players, it does not reflect well on his class or personality.

mystiroakey wrote:I can't dislike Rooney.

Hard worker, loves the game, passionate player. Can't ask for more

Bit of a chav.

So what, I don't go drinking with him... 

I think fergie is the reason Man U are disliked . But not just for the reasons given. He is disliked because he was so successful.

I certainly didn't resent Sir Alex for his success.  He'd earned the acclaim and the kudos and was entitled to revel in them.  Fair play to the bloke.

Unfortunately though, he had massive personality flaws which detracted from his accomplishments and made it easy for those who were jealous of his success to snipe at him.  He handed them a massive stick to beat him with, although I suppose that having a hide as thick as a rhinoceros helped him live with it.

Alex Ferguson was a strong disciplinarian, an innovative thinker and a forceful leader.  He was tactically astute on the pitch and very clever in the transfer market.  He built winning teams and forged an already great club into a global footballing powerhouse.  Those are remarkable achievements and when anyone behaves vindictively towards him out of petty jealousy, then it says more about them than it does about him.

But it cannot be denied that he was also a bully.... almost to the point of being a tyrant..... He was often petty, vindictive, small-minded, petulant and this sometimes extended to childish tantrums, such as not speaking to the BBC for goodness knows how long because a journalist (doing his job), investigating corruption in football, had the temerity to ask evidence-based questions about his son.  

These personality traits were not becoming for a man with the gifts that Alex Ferguson was blessed with.

I'm often bewildered by those who say that a man's flaws are merely a part of his character and they are all a part of the bigger package that go to make him what he is.  They may have a point.   Would he have gotten as much out of Roy Keane if he hadn't encouraged him to be a thug, and then exonerated him for every act of brutality he ever carried out on the field..?   One could argue that Brian Clough made Keane a great player whilst keeping that fiery temper on a leash.  But Ferguson slipped the collar and gave full rein to, certainly the nastiest human being I've ever seen on a football field.  And I've seen a few bloody unpleasant characters down the years.

I say 'bewildered' because there was no need for any of the more unsavoury things he (Ferguson)  did.  He would still have been a great manager if he'd simply allowed the investigation into his son's activities to run its course and allow the facts to exonerate him.  There was no need to make this rather cringeworthy display of petulance.  I could sometimes imagine him, on being asked for an interview, to fold his arms, push out his bottom lip and pout  "Go away, I'm not talking to you." then turn his head haughtily to one side.

It's the behaviour you might see in your grandchildren........ and you'd tell them off for it.  You wouldn't want them to behave like that, would you..?

I could go on about his spats with the media, players, and especially referees.  I mean, come on....  strutting up and down the touchline, ostentatiously checking his watch for time..... Really...?

Such behaviour does not become the truly great, and the examples I've cited are only a few of the very, very many that have been almost a hallmark of his darker side down the years.  

I truly do not believe these things were necessary to help him build wonderful football teams, nor needed to enhance his already dominating persona.  All they did was deflect deserved praise away from his football achievements and give his detractors a stick with which to beat him.

But now he's retired and I hope he's happy in his retirement.  I really do.  Bobby Robson used to say that his vision of hell was to spend Saturday afternoon pushing a trolley around Waitrose.  I'm not so sure about Sir Alex.  Something sneaky inside me suggests he might actually enjoy spending some time trying the cheeses, or  choosing a decent bottle of red.

I just wouldn't want to be the checkout girl that accidentally overcharges him.

"Unfortunately though, he had massive personality flaws which detracted from his accomplishments"

Sometimes they are inclusive, that flaw could be his plus.

No way roy keane was worse than the likes of chopper Harris, vinny jones. The haagland tackle was awful but think people over play keanes dirty play. He was first and fore most a fantastic footballer. Not my favourite person off the pitch but a fanstastic driven leader on it.

Not got the stats but pretty sure vieras disciplinary record is worse than keanes but isnt labeled in the same bracket despite being a bully

The Fourth Lion wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:I can't dislike Rooney.

Hard worker, loves the game, passionate player. Can't ask for more

Bit of a chav.

So what, I don't go drinking with him... 

I think fergie is the reason Man U are disliked . But not just for the reasons given. He is disliked because he was so successful.

I certainly didn't resent Sir Alex for his success.  He'd earned the acclaim and the kudos and was entitled to revel in them.  Fair play to the bloke.

Unfortunately though, he had massive personality flaws which detracted from his accomplishments and made it easy for those who were jealous of his success to snipe at him.  He handed them a massive stick to beat him with, although I suppose that having a hide as thick as a rhinoceros helped him live with it.

Alex Ferguson was a strong disciplinarian, an innovative thinker and a forceful leader.  He was tactically astute on the pitch and very clever in the transfer market.  He built winning teams and forged an already great club into a global footballing powerhouse.  Those are remarkable achievements and when anyone behaves vindictively towards him out of petty jealousy, then it says more about them than it does about him.

But it cannot be denied that he was also a bully.... almost to the point of being a tyrant..... He was often petty, vindictive, small-minded, petulant and this sometimes extended to childish tantrums, such as not speaking to the BBC for goodness knows how long because a journalist (doing his job), investigating corruption in football, had the temerity to ask evidence-based questions about his son.  

These personality traits were not becoming for a man with the gifts that Alex Ferguson was blessed with.

I'm often bewildered by those who say that a man's flaws are merely a part of his character and they are all a part of the bigger package that go to make him what he is.  They may have a point.   Would he have gotten as much out of Roy Keane if he hadn't encouraged him to be a thug, and then exonerated him for every act of brutality he ever carried out on the field..?   One could argue that Brian Clough made Keane a great player whilst keeping that fiery temper on a leash.  But Ferguson slipped the collar and gave full rein to, certainly the nastiest human being I've ever seen on a football field.  And I've seen a few bloody unpleasant characters down the years.

I say 'bewildered' because there was no need for any of the more unsavoury things he (Ferguson)  did.  He would still have been a great manager if he'd simply allowed the investigation into his son's activities to run its course and allow the facts to exonerate him.  There was no need to make this rather cringeworthy display of petulance.  I could sometimes imagine him, on being asked for an interview, to fold his arms, push out his bottom lip and pout  "Go away, I'm not talking to you." then turn his head haughtily to one side.

It's the behaviour you might see in your grandchildren........ and you'd tell them off for it.  You wouldn't want them to behave like that, would you..?

I could go on about his spats with the media, players, and especially referees.  I mean, come on....  strutting up and down the touchline, ostentatiously checking his watch for time..... Really...?

Such behaviour does not become the truly great, and the examples I've cited are only a few of the very, very many that have been almost a hallmark of his darker side down the years.  

I truly do not believe these things were necessary to help him build wonderful football teams, nor needed to enhance his already dominating persona.  All they did was deflect deserved praise away from his football achievements and give his detractors a stick with which to beat him.

But now he's retired and I hope he's happy in his retirement.  I really do.  Bobby Robson used to say that his vision of hell was to spend Saturday afternoon pushing a trolley around Waitrose.  I'm not so sure about Sir Alex.  Something sneaky inside me suggests he might actually enjoy spending some time trying the cheeses, or  choosing a decent bottle of red.

I just wouldn't want to be the checkout girl that accidentally overcharges him.

Great post, I kind of see Ferguson the same way, a great manager and leader but with a big a deep nasty streak. There are many who would argue that he needed this nasty streak but as you pointed out others have been great managers without the same type of vindictiveness and bullying mentality.

compelling and rich wrote:No way roy keane was worse than the likes of chopper Harris,  vinny jones. The haagland tackle was awful but think people over play keanes dirty play. He was first and fore most a fantastic footballer. Not my favourite person off the pitch but a fanstastic driven leader on it.

Not got the stats but pretty sure vieras disciplinary record is worse than keanes but isnt labeled in the same bracket despite being a bully

I am sure you are quite right, statistically and I wouldn't challenge any facts and figures you produce.  I am sure your research would be thorough and accurate.

However, in my opinion, there is being a dirty player and then there is being an animal.  I would put the likes of Ron Harris, Patrick Viera and Vinnie Jones  (and a fair few others I could name) in the first category, but Roy Keane would be in a league all of his own in the second.

The Haaland incident was by far the worst.  Keane deliberately, and with malice aforethought set out to seriously injure Haaland, and has never shown any remorse whatsoever for effectively ending that player's career and then standing over the player shouting abuse into his face as he lay on the pitch, clearly in appalling pain.  

Not content with that, Keane wrote in his 2002 autobiography: that he set out to injure Haaland purposefully that day. "I'd waited long enough. I f****** hit him hard," he wrote. "The ball was there (I think). Take that you c***. And don't ever stand over me sneering about fake injuries."

Keane went further than that in an interview in the Sunday Observer, when asked if he had any regrets about the Haaland incident, he replied: "No. Even in the dressing room afterwards I had no remorse. My attitude was, 'What goes around comes around'. He got his just rewards. My attitude is an eye for an eye."

This behaviour of Keane's was in response to an incident nearly two years before, when Haaland had accused Keane of faking an injury on the pitch.  Keane held the grudge for two years and then deliberately set about ending a player's career for something so trivial as on on-field slight.

This wasn't an eye for an eye..... this was an eye for an eyelash.

It takes a particularly vile human being to do what Keane did, and worse, Alex Ferguson publicly  defended him to the hilt.

Whilst people like Vinnie Jones and Ron Harris may have been cynical, wild and reckless in many of the things they did during matches, I can't think of any instances where they deliberately ended another player's career and then gloated about it afterwards..... playing to the gallery with obvious satisfaction and pleasure at what they had done.

OK.... so much for Roy Keane.   I will stop writing about him because I want to take the peg off my nose.



In the context of this thread, I am trying to provide instances as to why Manchester United are disliked to the extent that they are by many.  

Since the incident, the autobiography and the newspaper articles, there have been a number of writings put forward attempting to exonerate Keane.  Distortions of the event in a vain attempt at sanitisation of the unforgiveable.   Some of these stories have been repeated so often that they have become accepted by those susceptible to them.   As Adolph Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf:  "Any lie, if repeated often enough, will eventually be accepted as the truth."

Manchester United the club and it's fans would perhaps be less disliked if they could just face up to some of the things that have been done in the past, and instead of attempting to rewrite those events (and not fooling anybody) they might instead  own up and simply say.........  "Sorry."

One simple word might mean so much.

Keane worse than Harris, sorry that's laughable.

Should also check why Hangelaand retired before you chat such convoluted sh!t, it was an injury to his other completely unrelated to the Keane tackle.

Haaland injured his other knee, he played midweek after keanes tackle.

Keanes biggest mistake was admitting it was on purpose, it was very common to get people. Jack Charlton had a black book of names he had to get back, mick McCarthy injured a youth team player for nut megging him in a non contact game.

Those are just from books I've read.

Again it's just the jealousy thing, loads of footballers kick or deliberately foul players and are ignored - united and keane are high profile and successful = a big deal made out of it.

Moses..

On the juice hibbz

To be fair, his was disgraceful, pre-meditated and never was he sorry. Thats the worst part of it.

I love Roy Keane, incredible player, bit of a knob

Looks like ent and hammersmith beat me to it re the keane challenge.  Never seen so many lies written about a challenge, not directed at you fourth lion. I have read the "career ending" tackle rubbish everywhere.

Was the keane challenge any worse than harris cup final tackle, worse than cantonas kung fu kick, worse than hartsons kick on berkovic, worse than many of vinnies? Worse than ben thacters and all of the answers is no. Its simply peoples dislike of keane as to why they single him out

I agree keane is a Mr Winklechops of the highest order but that tackle wasnt any worse than many others

winklechops ha ha new one on me that, its the things that makes a noise in the top of church steeples and the bit after beginning and middle!

A helmet ?

mystiroakey wrote:A helmet ?

dont think your cut out to be a detective mysti

compelling and rich wrote:Looks like ent and hammersmith beat me to it re the keane challenge.  Never seen so many lies written about a challenge, not directed at you fourth lion. I have read the "career ending" tackle rubbish everywhere.

Was the keane challenge any worse than harris cup final tackle, worse than cantonas kung fu kick, worse than hartsons kick on berkovic, worse than many of vinnies? Worse than ben thacters and all of the answers is no. Its simply peoples dislike of keane as to why they single him out

I agree keane is a Mr Winklechops of the highest order but that tackle wasnt any worse than many others

I think we should agree to disagree, C&R.    

There are those who are determined to act as an apologist for Mr Keane, who is clearly a hero in the eyes of some.  Well, that's up to them.

I would broadly agree with the argument that others committed disgraceful acts, but then, this isn't a thread about them.  This is a thread about Manchester United, and attempting to introduce a "straw man" argument in order to deflect attention away from the point of the discussion simply doesn't work.

The point in question being that Keane revelled in what he did.  He gloated about it.   He made a point of going into print to boast about it.  He may have been trying to enhance his dark reputation.  If that is the case, then it is yet another black mark against him.  Behaving in the thuggish way that he frequently did is not something to be proud of, or boast about.  That he did so is merely a mark of the man.

Some hero.




But to indulge the comparisons with other clubs / individuals for just a moment....... Manchester United  have not been singled out exclusively for public opprobrium.   You may or may not have noticed that Leeds United had a book and a film made about their years of excess.  It was called "The Damned United".  Although it contains many inaccuracies, it does give a broad insight into the way in which Leeds United were seen.  You may or may not have noticed that Liverpool's reputation was so seriously compromised by the events at Heysel, that when the Hillsborough tragedy occurred, the club and its fans were a soft and easy target for their detractors, who were quick to jump on a bandwagon to unfairly tar them with a very big brush.

So no, criticism is not exclusive to Manchester United.  They are merely the latest manifestation of the general public's abhorrence of excessive behaviour in sport.    And in the case of Roy Keane, in my opinion, it is merited.



If one picture sums up Manchester United under Alex Ferguson, it is this one:




And just look who is front and centre in it all.    Look at Roy Keane in that picture:

The veins bulging in the neck.  The insane stare.  The spittle flecked mouth, shouting obscenities.  The sheer psychotic rage in his face.   And the Captain's armband, standing out almost as condemnatory proof of Alex Ferguson's footballing values.  If you'd give the captaincy to a man such as this, what would you not do..?    

And what did Andy D'Urso do to deserve this?    He had the temerity to (correctly, as TV evidence later proved) give Middlesbrough a penalty against Manchester United at that Holy of Holies, Old Trafford.

No other photograph condemns Manchester United and Roy Keane as that one does.

compelling and rich wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:A helmet ?

dont think your cut out to be a detective mysti

i could have said what you meant but it would have just come out as winklechops..

a helmet is another name for B end

The Fourth Lion wrote:

compelling and rich wrote:Looks like ent and hammersmith beat me to it re the keane challenge.  Never seen so many lies written about a challenge, not directed at you fourth lion. I have read the "career ending" tackle rubbish everywhere.

Was the keane challenge any worse than harris cup final tackle, worse than cantonas kung fu kick, worse than hartsons kick on berkovic, worse than many of vinnies? Worse than ben thacters and all of the answers is no. Its simply peoples dislike of keane as to why they single him out

I agree keane is a Mr Winklechops of the highest order but that tackle wasnt any worse than many others

I think we should agree to disagree, C&R.    

There are those who are determined to act as an apologist for Mr Keane, who is clearly a hero in the eyes of some.  Well, that's up to them.

I would broadly agree with the argument that others committed disgraceful acts, but then, this isn't a thread about them.  This is a thread about Manchester United, and attempting to introduce a "straw man" argument in order to deflect attention away from the point of the discussion simply doesn't work.

The point in question being that Keane revelled in what he did.  He gloated about it.   He made a point of going into print to boast about it.  He may have been trying to enhance his dark reputation.  If that is the case, then it is yet another black mark against him.  Behaving in the thuggish way that he frequently did is not something to be proud of, or boast about.  That he did so is merely a mark of the man.

Some hero.




But to indulge the comparisons with other clubs / individuals for just a moment....... Manchester United  have not been singled out exclusively for public opprobrium.   You may or may not have noticed that Leeds United had a book and a film made about their years of excess.  It was called "The Damned United".  Although it contains many inaccuracies, it does give a broad insight into the way in which Leeds United were seen.  You may or may not have noticed that Liverpool's reputation was so seriously compromised by the events at Heysel, that when the Hillsborough tragedy occurred, the club and its fans were a soft and easy target for their detractors, who were quick to jump on a bandwagon to unfairly tar them with a very big brush.

So no, criticism is not exclusive to Manchester United.  They are merely the latest manifestation of the general public's abhorrence of excessive behaviour in sport.    And in the case of Roy Keane, in my opinion, it is merited.



If one picture sums up Manchester United under Alex Ferguson, it is this one:




And just look who is front and centre in it all.    Look at Roy Keane in that picture:

The veins bulging in the neck.  The insane stare.  The spittle flecked mouth, shouting obscenities.  The sheer psychotic rage in his face.   And the Captain's armband, standing out almost as condemnatory proof of Alex Ferguson's footballing values.  If you'd give the captaincy to a man such as this, what would you not do..?    

And what did Andy D'Urso do to deserve this?    He had the temerity to (correctly, as TV evidence later proved) give Middlesbrough a penalty against Manchester United at that Holy of Holies, Old Trafford.

No other photograph condemns Manchester United and Roy Keane as that one does.

Great post.

Speaking as Boro fan, that was one of our better memories of our time in the Premier League.  

I never liked Keane either. Thought he was a thug and always seemed to be looking for any excuse for a fight. Remember his spat with Mick McCarthy, when his complaint about the ROI's training facilities at the 2002 World Cup escalated into an all-out row? Not the kind of behaviour you'd expect from a senior player, expected to play a major role for his national team.

Anyway, back on topic, I would agree you can't argue with Fergie's success, but his methods were certainly questionable.

fourth lion

cant argue at your points made against keane as a person, already said what i think about him off the pitch. my argument really is that on it he wasn't much different than many many others. take that picture for instance, there are plenty of other players who did/do this. ballack, drogba and terry for instance were just as aggressive to a certain mr overbo.

rooney is hardly a saint with harassing refs either.

finally think you missed the main reason behind keane printing of the haaland incident, £££££. he knew full well what controversy it would cause and as a result would sell many more books for it

My opinion for what it's worth is that Keane was an utterly fantastic player but one who Ferguson as his manager should perhaps have reigned in on occasion. Fact that it probably suited Swalex not to just adds to my dislike of Ferguson.

As a Forest fan I watched Haaland on many occasions and he wasn't nicknamed the "Hatchet Man" because he sat on eggs. Several training ground bust ups most notably with Stan.

Oh and Fourth Lion the Damned United is most definitely not about Dirty Leeds "years of excess" it is a hideously fictitious and very unpleasant account of the brief period Brian Clough managed them. Check it with your wife's niece if you don't believe me.

Hibbz wrote:My opinion for what it's worth is that Keane was an utterly fantastic player but one who Ferguson as his manager should perhaps have reigned in on occasion. Fact that it probably suited Swalex not to just adds to my dislike of Ferguson.

As a Forest fan I watched Haaland on many occasions and he wasn't nicknamed the "Hatchet Man" because he sat on eggs. Several training ground bust ups most notably with Stan.

Oh and Fourth Lion the Damned United is most definitely not about Dirty Leeds "years of excess" it is a hideously fictitious and very unpleasant account of the brief period Brian Clough managed them. Check it with your wife's niece if you don't believe me.

Hmmmm.  Splitting hairs a bit, and after your attempts to knock more than thirty years off my age (which I would heartily approve of, if it were possible), but in the process change my gender  (which I'm afraid my wife would most certainly not), then I suppose it is a case of one extreme to another.   Rather like the way Roy Keane changed after leaving Nottingham Forest, perhaps.

Yes, you are quite correct when you say the film and book were principally about Brian Clough, but I got the general impression whilst watching it that Leeds United (the clue is in the name:  "The Damned United") had something to do with the issue.

Be that as it may, The whole point of this discussion is about why there is a perception that Manchester United are particularly disliked.  I have cited a number of reasons now, as to why I think that may be.  I think I have made few pretty reasonable points.   Take them or leave them as you will.

Jenny sends her regards.  I did mention your little faux pas when we spoke recently.  She said she would check it out for a laugh.  She emailed me later, after reading your comment about Sherlock-esque investigations, and suggested that in future, references to Sherlock Holmes, be read as coming from Inspector Clouseau.

Oh, and she also said "Joyeux Noel".   It's French for Merry Christmas.  But of course, you knew that, eh m'sieu...? <wink>   

compelling and rich wrote:fourth lion

cant argue at your points made against keane as a person, already said what i think about him off the pitch. my argument really is that on it he wasn't much different than many many others. take that picture for instance, there are plenty of other players who did/do this. ballack, drogba and terry for instance were just as aggressive to a certain mr overbo.

rooney is hardly a saint with harassing refs either.

finally think you missed the main reason behind keane printing of the haaland incident, £££££. he knew full well what controversy it would cause and as a result would sell many more books for it

CS.... I think you make cogent arguments for your case and I see where you're coming from, believe me.    I am at great pains to stress that I truly don't hate Manchester United..... but.

Do you think that saying the things he did in that book, just to squeeze a few more sales out of it.... or even a lot more sales out of it..... is clever publicity, or would you agree that it is yet another example of a cynical man for whom any excess is justified in the pursuit of his own ambition and greed...?

You make a valid point, but I can't think that a desire to sell more books in order to line his pockets with greasy money would be worth saying such things.  And if he said those things without there being any truth to them then that means that the entire biography must be considered suspect (at the very least) and is therefore invalidated as a reputable chronicle of his playing career.

Going further.... who would trust such a man to manage their club in the future..?   Well, Sunderland and Ipswich did, but not for long.  Perhaps they were seduced by his image as a "winner" when they hired him, but if that was the case, then it didn't take them long to see through the façade, did it..?   How long before he clashes with Martin O'Neill and the FAI before the FAI have cause to consider they have made a mistake in making him the national team assistant coach...? Time will tell.

Football management is the ultimate results driven profession. Unlike a banker or an accountant or any other of the professions where perhaps a little creative bookwork can hide the real picture perhaps for many years, a football manager's results are published instantly, every week, for millions to see.  There is nowhere to hide.

When it came to stepping up to the plate without Sir Alex to sort things out when the going got tough, Roy Keane came up short and all the spitting, snarling and in-yer-face-intimidation couldn't hide it.

Perhaps that, in the end, was the real mark of the man.