England Squad for NZ Tour and 6N

And I've posed it in that order for a reason. England have already said that their objective is to win the 6N (with France away first up, that's a pretty big ask...) but thy also have a 3 game tour to NZ coming up in which the first game will be played without the AP finalists.

So the challenge is - how do you put together the 6N squad so that whoever makes the final, you have enough players who've played together by the end of the 6N that England can field a half-decent side with players from the top two sides missing? I suppose the good news is that for once the EPS is a nice mix of players from various teams, but a Saints-Sarries final would be a serious hindrance.

The EPS on 1 Aug looked like this. Who would be your squad? And how would you prepare them?

England senior EPS:

Forwards: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs: Chris Ashton (Saracens), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Marland Yarde (London Irish), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

England Saxons:

Forwards: Calum Clark (Northampton Saints), Jordan Crane (Leicester Tigers), Paul Doran Jones (Harlequins), Will Fraser (Saracens), James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), George Kruis (Saracens), Kearnan Myall (London Wasps), David Paice (London Irish), George Robson (Harlequins), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers), Luke Wallace (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)

Backs: Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Elliot Daly (London Wasps), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Ugo Monye (Harlequins), Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Simpson (London Wasps), David Strettle (Saracens), Mathew Tait (Leicester Tigers), Joel Tomkins (Saracens), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

Just out of curiosity who played in this year's final to give an idea as to how many players could be affected? I concede I know nothing about the AP.

Drop:
Flood, T youngs, Tomkins, Ashton, Foden

Promote:
Monye, Webber, Burrell, burns, Yarde

Keep the rest and Foden in squad.

Just a thought. How would you feel with 20min to go and T youngs comes on to throw in to a crucial lineout at the RWC final?

"Just a thought. How would you feel with 20min to go and T youngs comes on to throw in to a crucial lineout at the RWC final?"

Time to go to the bar.

Last year's final was Saints vs Tigers, so players like both Youngs, Manu, Cole, Parling, Croft, Foden, Lawes, Hartley, Dickson

At the moment Sarries and Saints are out ahead of the pack with Bath, Exeter, Quins, Tigers and Wasps separated by a handful of points.

On early season form, a Sarries - Saints final looks like the obvious outcome, which would be a real headache for Lancaster. But if the AP has taught us one thing it is that you should never, ever rule out Tigers. They've made the last 9 finals, I believe.

If I were Lancaster, though, I'd be secretly hoping for an Exeter-Bath final with Quins and Wasps going out in the semis. Can't see it happening, though.

Realistically, it means that he probably needs to be trying out Gloucester and Bath players over the 6N.

A team minus Saints and Sarries

Brown/Tait
Wade
Tuilagi or Trinder
36
Yarde
Burns/Flood
Care/Youngs
Morgan
Robshaw
Haskell/Johnson
Launchbury
Attwood/Parling
Cole/Wilson
Youngs/Webber
Marler/Mullan

Not too bad

Have I got this right, many people including Lancaster want to try players out during the 6 nations and not the AIs?

Shouldn't it be the other way around?


I would rather win the 6 nations than have a close game with NZ.

Poorfour wrote:So the challenge is - how do you put together the 6N squad so that whoever makes the final, you have enough players who've played together by the end of the 6N that England can field a half-decent side with players from the top two sides missing?

the simple and unfortunate answer is that you can't, really, without sacrificing the 6N. England's first choice team (going by the AIs plus injuries returning) looks something like this:
Corbs Hartley Cole
Lawes Launchbury
Wood Robshaw Vunipola
Dickson Farrell
Barritt Tuilagi
Wade Brown Yarde

If the prem final involves two of Sarries, Tigers and Saints, then that means you're missing:
- Saints vs Tigers: Corbs Hartley Cole Lawes Wood Dickson Tuilagi from the starting line-up, Youngs brothers, Flood, Croft (?), Parling, Foden, from likely squad.
- Sarries vs Tigers: Cole, Vunipola, Farrell, Barritt, Tuilagi from starting line-up: Youngs brothers, Flood, Croft (?), Parling, Vunipola, Tomkins (?), Goode (?), Ashton from squad.
- Sarries vs Saints: Corbs Hartley Lawes Wood Vunipola Dickson Farrell Barritt from starting line-up; Vunipola, Tomkins, Goode, Ashton, etc. from squad.

I get none of this is set in stone, but if two of those three contest the final we'll be without at least one third of our starting line-up and several other squad members. To take the Sarries vs Saints example, the best team we could field without these two teams involvement looks something like:
Marler Youngs Cole
Launchbury Parling
Croft/Johnson/Haskell Robshaw Morgan
Youngs Flood
Twelvetrees Tuilagi
Wade Brown Yarde
Bench: Mullan Webber Wilson Attwood Backrower Care Burns A.N. Other

not a bad squad at all, provided no one gets injured, but still a weakened team, and that's provided no one gets injured. The simple fact is, the best English players play at the best English clubs (or conversely, the best English clubs are those with the best English players) as a rule, hence the teams involved in the final will in all likelihood contain a sizeable chunk of those who are involved with the national team.

The positive is that with so far Gloucester and Quins off the pace, guys like Morgan, Care, Burns, Twelvetrees, Brown should be available.

Yeah, but we are going to make the playoffs anyway. It's not where you start, it's where you finish

I guess trying them in a game against Italy is seen as an easier step into internationals than one against NZ ..

Although I would have played any such players against Argentina

It wasn't a blip by Youngs... its a pattern.

2013 6N - England have the worst retention rate in lineouts out of all 6 sides. England got smashed in scrum by Wales... Marler & Cole are half decent scrummagers.

2013 Lions tour - next to Adam Jones and vs. the worst scrum in 6N & RC combined. Lineout did ok but only other option was a Best in worst form of life and Hibbard who couldn't hit a barn door all tour.

2013 AIs -  Was turned over in lineout constantly vs. AUS. When Hartley came on England all a sudden looked smooth. When he came on vs. ABs he lost 4 lineouts in a row, was turned over once and the scrum started to creak (all in 20 mins).

You hear it all the time... oh but look at his work off the ball and in the ruck. People said the same about Lee Mears. But if they can't hit their targets and can't hold a scrum then all that ruck work is pointless as ENG will never get the ball. If ENG were to reach the RWC final in 2015 what are the chances they face NZ or SA? Almost guaranteed.... so given those teams have very strong packs then its a waste of time to say, oh but against AUS he can hold his own.

The guy has been a hooker for only a few years I know its harsh.. but this is test rugby. You can't have sentiments at the highest level. Until he can hit 19/20 game upon game then all his ruck work is worthless. His appearance literally cost England the game.

englandglory4ever wrote:Drop:
Flood, T youngs, Tomkins, Ashton, Foden

Promote:
Monye, Webber, Burrell, burns, Yarde

Keep the rest and Foden in squad.

Just a thought. How would you feel with 20min to go and T youngs comes on to throw in to a crucial lineout at the RWC final?

Monye really!?

Some players, like Yarde and Wade, would have been played but for injury anyway. That's unfortunate but life

Other than at wing, we have an issue at 13 but only if Manu is unfit, at 10 where we will probably need to test someone for at least a bit of the 6N or off the bench, and trying Attwood would be a good idea. Otherwise, thanks to returning players , we don't have to trail many players in the 6N at all

BamBam wrote:I guess trying them in a game against Italy is seen as an easier step into internationals than one against NZ ..

Although I would have played any such players against Argentina

while I get where you're coming from, I disagree. Had we picked our best team vs Italy last year and smashed them we might well have won the 6N (there's a big difference between overturning an 8 point deficit, and say a 20 point deficit). Also clearly the AIs were about giving a few players (Dickson, Tomkins spring to mind) a few games to show what they could do. Chopping and changing twice wouldn't help that much.

I'm a fan of picking your best team whenever possible, with the rarest of exceptions. England mostly know at this stage what their best team is, and what their core squad looks like, so it's with these players we need to keep working for the next two years, turning last Saturday's defeat into future victories.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

BamBam wrote:I guess trying them in a game against Italy is seen as an easier step into internationals than one against NZ ..

Although I would have played any such players against Argentina

while I get where you're coming from, I disagree. Had we picked our best team vs Italy last year and smashed them we might well have won the 6N (there's a big difference between overturning an 8 point deficit, and say a 20 point deficit). Also clearly the AIs were about giving a few players (Dickson, Tomkins spring to mind) a few games to show what they could do. Chopping and changing twice wouldn't help that much.

I'm a fan of picking your best team whenever possible, with the rarest of exceptions. England mostly know at this stage what their best team is, and what their core squad looks like, so it's with these players we need to keep working for the next two years, turning last Saturday's defeat into future victories.

I agree Mad for Chelsea

When Wales looked at that match they saw that victory alone would almost guarantee the 6N title. A real incentive... had they put 20-30 points into the matter it would have been unrealistic (in their minds at least) and England would have been more assured (i.e. lose and you'll still be 6N champs so relax).

Fair points, I'd forgotten (almost on purpose) about the circumstances before the Wales game

I don't think it's necessarily about massive chopping and changing, but careful use of substitutes, particularly against Scotland and Italy, might give Lancaster a little more confidence that he can field some strong combinations.

I agree...sod the tour....we go to WIN the 6n!

Any who cant make the tour can then be replaced suitably...

Hopefully Wade and Yarde and Hask and Attwood might have a role to play in the 6N anyway?

Actually, this is probably why Quins have been playing so poorly, we are being patriotic! And why we decided to beat Tigers to help ensure their players would be available too!

Personally I wouldn't change much for the Six Nations, just slot the injured players back in. Do you reckon they’ll rest any players this summer, would they dare against the All Blacks? For the tour down to NZ I'd take:

01. Alex Corbisiero (fitness permitting), Mako Vunipola and Joe Marler
02. Dylan Hartley, Rob Webber, Tom Youngs (I'd like to give Youngs a chance; he stepped into the squad when there was a major gap in it and I don't want to jettison him. Besides, who else is putting their hands up?)
03. Dan Cole, David Wilson and Henry Thomas (Need to start developing depth here)

04. & 05: Joe Launchbury, Courtney Lawes, Geoff Parling and Dave Attwood.

Flankers: Chris Robshaw, Tom Wood, Will Fraser & Matt Kvesic
No.8: Ben Morgan & Billy Vunipola (Although it would be tempting to bring along another youngster like Jack Clifford / Dave Ewers for the experience).

09. Lee Dickson, Ben Youngs & Danny Care
10. Owen Farrell, Freddie Burns, Toby Flood (Although I’m Ford is a tempting pick)

Centres: Brad Barritt, Manu Tuilagi, Billy Twelvetrees and Luther Burrell

Wings: Christian Wade, Marland Yarde, Jonny May and Jack Nowell

Fullback: Mike Brown and Ben Foden

Picked 35, but could probably lose a spare FH, SH or prop.

personally i would like to see england treat the 6N like a RWC warmup. the wales game will be a rwc group rehearsal. we should start practicing the intensity and intent from the first game.

screw the NZ tour. it is their union that moved the dates forward a week, knowing there was a clash with the AP final. i would use it as an opportunity to rest any players with niggling injuries, as the series is already devalued for me, and SL needs to be long term greedy and focus solely on mental and physical preparation for RWC after the 6N is over.

who knows, we have such decent strength in depth in the forwards that maybe we could nick a test without our starting xv - we almost did it last week.

Let's just win all our matches up to the RWC (and then all the matches in it too)

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Just out of curiosity who played in this year's final to give an idea as to how many players could be affected? I concede I know nothing about the AP.

Any chance of some insight, please?  

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Just out of curiosity who played in this year's final to give an idea as to how many players could be affected? I concede I know nothing about the AP.

Any chance of some insight, please?  

Kia, Saints played Leics in this year's AP final; also expect Sarries to be in the mix this time around, plus one other maybe

Cheers ASBO. One less google search to see gown many players that might affect. 

Well for example if its a Sarries v Saints final you would be missing potentially:

Sarries
Vunipola x 2, Farrell, Barritt, Tomkins, Ashton, Goode

Saints
Corbs, Hartley, Lawes, Wood, Dickson, Foden

Saints might be a bigger issue than Sarries playing in the final...

Cheers GF. That is a lot! Much worse than France.

Kia, your union is to blame for the change of dates. was agreed at irb and rfu meetings in 2008/9 that there would could be no intl matches on the first weekend in june...NZRU have chosen to count may31/jun1 as the first weekend in june, so they bumped the matches forwards from 14/21/28 to 7/14/21. and hence england are going to be without at least a 1/3 of their squad for the first test.

Quins (Roughly)
Brown, Marler, Robshaw, Care

Leicester
Flood, Cole, Youngs x 2, Tuilagi (If fit), Croft (If fit)

Bath -
Attwood, Webber, Eastmond, Joseph, C.Fearns, A.Watson, D.Wilson - mostly fringe players I know, but they could be tested in the 6N and taken to NZ!

Yes it's unfortunate quins. I have no insight as to how the error came about so it's difficult to say it was intentional or not but it will hopefully not happen again.

i will assume its not intentional. cant imagine when the dates were set that NZ would have been too worried about playing Eng in NZ

unless they moved the dates last december

real shame though.

Picking 2 or 3 players in each position -
1.Corbis/Vaunipola/Marler
2.Hartley/Youngs/Webber
3.Cole/Wilson
4.Launchbury/Parling/Kruis
5.Lawes/Attwood/Kitchener
6.Wood/Fraser
7.Robshaw/Kvesic
8.B.Vauipola/B.Morgan

9.B.Youngs/Care/Dickson
10.Farrell/Burns/Flood
11.Ashton/Wade
12.Twelvetrees/Barritt/Eastmond
13.Tuilagi/Burrell/Tompkins
14.Yarde/May/Sharples
15.Brown/Foden/Goode

Yes definitely especially as NZ no longer take a slice of the gate revenue up north and need to maximize the attendance if their home games.

Like the Mealamu Coles name sheet fiasco, a mistake hopefully never to be repeated and someone is still wearing slap marks like Crockett for their part in the error.

How long is Croft out for? Not that I would have him in the team ahead of Wood anyway, think he has been outstanding in the past 3 games and one of our biggest problems against Wales was having Croft at 6 and Wood at 8. Lancaster can't quite seem to shake his preference for certain players even if it means playing them out of position. I know it can work in certain circumstances (Ben Smith for NZ played wing in the summer, centre now; the Aussies seem to interchange whenever they want) bit it should be an exception rather than happening every game.

Croft is out for the season....likewise George Lowe who could have been an interesting one at 13...

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Yes definitely especially as NZ no longer take a slice of the gate revenue up north and need to maximize the attendance if their home games.

Like the Mealamu Coles name sheet fiasco, a mistake hopefully never to be repeated and someone is still wearing slap marks like Crockett for their part in the error.

i missed that. what happened?

I agree with others that the most likely candidates for the final are Saints, Sarries & Tigers (not on current form, but we all know how they tend to finish).

I wouldn't be making too many changes to the starting line up for most games because of that, but it would dovetail with a few opportunities I'd like to see given priority from the bench:

Webber
Attwood
Burns
Eastmond/Daly


My EPS would be:

David Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)
Carl Fearns (Bath Rugby)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (London Wasps)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby) / Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Christian Wade (London Wasps)
Marland Yarde (London Irish)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Quins in the Ellis Park test Mealamu came off the bench even though Coles was listed as the replacement on the official team sheet. The NZ official called over laughingly suggested it was a typo as Coles and Mealamu were names that invited easy confusion. In the end SA were sporting about it and play resumed but it's the type of error that's inexcusable and yet alarmingly has precedent in NZ sport like our Olympic gold shot putter not being registered to throw at the Olympics.

Will the Premiership final definitely interfere with all of the NZ tour matches?  The first test match is a week after the Premiership final and the second and third test are on subsequent weeks.  Will the squad not remain largely the same?

pretty bad kia. i think i remember seeing a video of it...wasn't jean de villiers involved in the discussion somehow? can you imagine what would have happened if he hadnt been allowed on!

Yeah he was good about it. If it had been the RWC I think they wouldn't have allowed him on and fair enough. As it stood, the RC trophy was up for grabs so it was sporting from SA. Not as bad as 16 men on the field but still a ruck up.

cumbrian, all i have read so far is that anyone involved in the AP final will not play in the first test. assume they can still be part of the squad for matches 2 and 3.

seriously challenging for planning. lets say its saints/sarries/tigers/quins in the semis. means SL will have question marks over 20+ players for the first test until its clear who is in the final.

Far from ideal, but looking at the more likely finalists I don't think the starting XVs we would put out in the first test would contain any players that far off a match day 23.  The benches would be a bit more questionable, but it would be interesting to see some of them tested.


Saints-Sarries Final

Marler
Webber
Cole
Launchbury
Attwood
Fearns/Robshaw
Robshaw/Kvesic
Morgan

Care/Youngs
Burns
Yarde
36
Tuilagi
Wade
Brown

Youngs, Mullan, Wilson, Parling, Dickinson/Ewers, Care/Youngs, Flood, Eastmond



Saints-Tigers Final

Vunipola
Webber
Wilson
Launchbury
Attwood
Fearns/Robshaw
Robshaw/Kvesic
Vunipola

Care
Burns/Farrell
Yarde
36
Barritt
Wade
Brown

Lindsay/George, Marler, Thomas, Kruis/Myall, Morgan, Simpson, Burns/Farrell, Eastmond



Sarries-Tigers Final

Corbisero
Hartley
Wilson
Launchbury
Lawes
Wood
Robshaw
Morgan

Care/Dickson
Burns
Yarde
36
Burrell
Wade
Brown

Webber, Marler, Thomas, Attwood, Dickinson/Ewers, Care/Dickson, Ford, Eastmond

Wing and centre would be the only places I'd look to make changes as they are the positions which haven't looked good this autumn.

Prop - Corbs, Marler, Vunipola, Cole, Wilson
Hooker - Hartley, Youngs, Webber
Second row - Launchbury, Lawes, Parling, Attwood
Flanker - Robshaw, Wood and two of Kvesic, Fraser and Haskell depending on form
Number 8 - Vunipola, Morgan

Scrum half - Youngs, Care, Dickson
Fly half - Farrell, Burns, Flood
Inside centre - Twelvetrees, Barritt, Eastmond
Outside centre - Trinder, Daly
Wing - Wade, Yarde, May
Full back - Brown, Foden

1.Corbs 2.Hartley 3.Cole 4.Launchbury 5.Lawes 6.Wood 7.Robshaw 8.Vunipola/Morgan
9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.Yarde 12.Twelvetrees 13.Daly/Trinder 14.Wade 15.Brown

The above would be very strong in the forwards and would finally have a backline with some attacking potential to get excited about.

A few people have put the blame at the feet of the NZRFU but surely it doesn't decide the schedule by itself. Surely the English union and the IRB have to sign off on it.

Far too early to decide selection given form and fitness will likely change an awful lot pre 6N. I think we should rest the Lions over the summer as well otherwise we risk burn out before the RWC.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Far too early to decide selection given form and fitness will likely change an awful lot pre 6N. I think we should rest the Lions over the summer as well otherwise we risk burn out before the RWC.

Agreed it's pretty arbitrary naming squads already given injuries, form, etc to come before the 6N, still it's interesting to see the sorts of players most want playing and what that tells us about what people want from the gameplan.

Resting players for the summer tour would be a good shout and fortunately in most of our Lions players positions we have cover. Personally I'd make decisions about resting nearer the end of the season when we've seen how players stand up in the 6N and when we know how much rugby they've played with Heineken and play-offs.

Corbs - No doubt our best LH but is injury prone and could use a summer off - covered by Marler and Mako

T Youngs - Fallen behind Hartley in the pecking order so will be very keen to travel but could well be looking tired by the end of the season

Cole - Personally I'd put him slightly above Wilson at the moment but the problem wouldn't be the first replacement more the one after that. To succeed during a tour of NZ you need strength in depth and without Cole we lose that.

Parling - With Parling looking a bit tired in the Prem and strength in depth a lot could be said for giving him some recovery time.

B Youngs - Looked off the pace so far this season so could get a lot out of a full pre season.

Farrell - First choice at the moment but will have played a lot of rugby by then. Could be interesting to see how others fare in a baptism of fire in NZ.

Tuilagi - Will have had a long time out already and if fit we have no other 13s that come close so should probably travel.

From the above I'd say Cole is the biggest debating point as I definitely think he'll need a rest by then but after Wilson we're struggling for a third choice who would fare too well vs the All Blacks.