England Squad for NZ Tour and 6N

First topic message reminder :

And I've posed it in that order for a reason. England have already said that their objective is to win the 6N (with France away first up, that's a pretty big ask...) but thy also have a 3 game tour to NZ coming up in which the first game will be played without the AP finalists.

So the challenge is - how do you put together the 6N squad so that whoever makes the final, you have enough players who've played together by the end of the 6N that England can field a half-decent side with players from the top two sides missing? I suppose the good news is that for once the EPS is a nice mix of players from various teams, but a Saints-Sarries final would be a serious hindrance.

The EPS on 1 Aug looked like this. Who would be your squad? And how would you prepare them?

England senior EPS:

Forwards: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs: Chris Ashton (Saracens), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Marland Yarde (London Irish), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

England Saxons:

Forwards: Calum Clark (Northampton Saints), Jordan Crane (Leicester Tigers), Paul Doran Jones (Harlequins), Will Fraser (Saracens), James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), George Kruis (Saracens), Kearnan Myall (London Wasps), David Paice (London Irish), George Robson (Harlequins), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers), Luke Wallace (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)

Backs: Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Elliot Daly (London Wasps), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Ugo Monye (Harlequins), Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Simpson (London Wasps), David Strettle (Saracens), Mathew Tait (Leicester Tigers), Joel Tomkins (Saracens), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

I'm not one to usually go overboard on early form but Charlie Walker just played two quality European games and looked to the manor born. He's scored a try a game so far and has looked absolutely devastating. Just ask Lydiatte how hard he is to tackle!

This guy needs to be fast tracked into the Saxons pronto, he has pace to burn, experience playing center, wings and 15 and has been comfy with any thing that's thrown at him. For once lets drop out hang ups about young players and use the Saxons for what it's meant for!

Ah. Step up the latest saviour of English rugby.

I. Can't. Wait.   

 

Come on! The guy has scored TWO tries. Get him in to the EPS! Fast track him in for Ashton (he's finished rewriting the book on wing place, and Walker has read it!)

yappysnap wrote:I'm not one to usually go overboard on early form but Charlie Walker just played two quality European games and looked to the manor born. He's scored a try a game so far and has looked absolutely devastating. Just ask Lydiatte how hard he is to tackle!

This guy needs to be fast tracked into the Saxons pronto, he has pace to burn, experience playing center, wings and 15 and has been comfy with any thing that's thrown at him. For once lets drop out hang ups about young players and use the Saxons for what it's meant for!

Actually i agree with this Yappy, one of my bug bears is the number of pointless players taking up spots like Paice at hooker, Quins Second Row Robson...etc etc etc.

I appreciate experience in the Saxons...it gives the youngsters a little help, but they should be players who can play 1st team in the 6n etc in case of injuries...and the likes of Paice, Robson, Waldrom, PDJ etc shouldnt be there.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Come on! The guy has scored TWO tries. Get him in to the EPS! Fast track him in for Ashton (he's finished rewriting the book on wing place, and Walker has read it!)

Actually in later came to light that Walker was Ashton's ghost writer all along, and a lot of the ideas in there were his own.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I'm not one to usually go overboard on early form but Charlie Walker just played two quality European games and looked to the manor born. He's scored a try a game so far and has looked absolutely devastating. Just ask Lydiatte how hard he is to tackle!

This guy needs to be fast tracked into the Saxons pronto, he has pace to burn, experience playing center, wings and 15 and has been comfy with any thing that's thrown at him. For once lets drop out hang ups about young players and use the Saxons for what it's meant for!

Actually i agree with this Yappy, one of my bug bears is the number of pointless players taking up spots like Paice at hooker, Quins Second Row Robson...etc etc etc.

I appreciate experience in the Saxons...it gives the youngsters a little help, but they should be players who can play 1st team in the 6n etc in case of injuries...and the likes of Paice, Robson, Waldrom, PDJ etc shouldnt be there.

Yep that is exactly what I meant.

Here's a lad that's in good form, has stood up well to top level club rugby and has performed better then a fair few seasoned veterans around him. Why not get him in to the A team for experiences sake asap?

I wouldn't put Walker anywhere near the EPS yet. This is his first year of first team rugby and he needs a little while to get used to this level before putting him in a more intense environment! Saxons however would be fine

It can't really be much different to Tom Youngs playing hooker after 6 months of practice (might not be the best example!).

Key thing, GE, is that one of the things everyone bemoans in the English side is pace or the lack thereof. Walker has as much outright pace as any player in the UK, and he's a good rugby player, just too inexperienced yet

That was out of necessity. At wing, May is similar and next in line

Definitely, and I wouldn't want him to suddenly be starting for England in the 6N's but I would like to see him in the Saxons over guys like Strettle, Monye or Biggs.

As you say May is very similar and should be further ahead in the pecking order. Then next year Tait might come back on to the scene as well ( I doubt it).

Let the guy develop at a sensible pace. More AP and HC matches for at least 1 more season before Saxons. 1 or 2 good games against an "expensively but not playing well as a team" French club side do not make him ready for exposure at a higher level.

Just to be clear, i wasnt talkling about Walker for the full squad...we were talking potentially for the Saxons.

Personally i dont think Lancaster uses the Saxons well enough. Its supposed to be a development squad of players performing well and that should be looked at for future honours...but also a team with players that backs up the first team squad in case of injuries.

Young guys playing well should be in there, gaining experience by training and being around the 1st team, but also at a level that should the situation arrive they can be promoted to the seniors to cover injuries.

I welcome experience in there, but for me a player like George Robson or David Paice, or Thomas Waldrom offer nothing.

I guess we need to decide if the Saxons is there as a development squad for the 1st 15, or if it is there to win games outright.
Or is it just an extension of the senior squad as a whole.

If its there just to win then you have justification for a few of the more experienced players in there. Perhaps players that are good club men but aren't ever going to be world class etc.
If its a development squad then you really want to fill it with the exciting talent that need the exposure to senior setup.
If its an extension of the senior squad then we need to look at any and all players that could be stepping up to the 1st 15 and be great or even world class.

As a preference - I wouldn't be upset if the Saxons lost a game or 2 against say an experienced wolfhounds side if we fielded a load of youngsters.
I would like guys like Paice, Strettle, Robson, Allen, Crane, Waldrom, Paul Doran Jones to all be left out. Biggs will be out anyway as he's left the sport.

These guys have had a chance but have failed to deliver in the past. Happy to keep in a few of the older heads like Haskell, Monye, May, Sharples, that are guys that can still step up and do a good job for the national side. Easter needs to be involved - he is a country mile better than Waldrom/Crane.

But we need to get - Anthony Watson, Burrell, Charlie Walker, Charlie Matthews, Jack Nowell, Collier, Jamie George, Henry Sloan, George Ford, Luke Wallace, Eliot Daly all in there. Jamie Gibson recently has had good performances.

Some are already in the Saxons but these are the guys that are performing in the Premiership and Europe now and should be there for the Saxons too. They are making positive impacts for their clubs.

I guess its important as a large part of this Saxons squad will be touring to NZ in the summer, and with the fixture timings these guys could be starting against the Kiwi's.

Sorry GF - basically said the same as you.

We think along the same lines mate. The Saxons isnt there just to win as many games.

Its a development squad, and a means for testing players who might be worth a look at , without subjecting them initially to full international games. Everything is geared towards the 1st team squad, and the identification, development and progression of talent.

As you've said, i would settle for a few defeats if it lets us see how players cope.

EDIT: You also make an important point...We both say that they should also be back up for the 1st squad / team...so are these young kids like Watson, Matthews etc good enough to slot in for a 6n game due to injuries...well they are playing premiership and european rugby already, so there shouldnt be a problem...

Jack Nowell should be in the Saxons though. Not EPS. Can't understand why people want to throw him in the deep end so early. It would be madness to do likewise with Walker.

May needs to be in the EPS.

propdavid london not sure how you can advocate the return of the likes of Monye and Easter yet criticise the likes of Strettle and Waldrom. Perhaps your Quins bias is rearing it's head.

Strettle has scored a lot more tries than Monye in the last year and Easter is 35.

6 tries vs 0 in the AP. I wonder which winger has more potential to perform......

Surely it would madness to play the current top try scorer in the AP for England......

Instead let's play some rookie with little to no experience and virtually no tries to their name like Walker or Nowell.

beshocked wrote:Jack Nowell should be in the Saxons though. Not EPS. Can't understand why people want to throw him in the deep end so early. It would be madness to do likewise with Walker.

May needs to be in the EPS.

propdavid london not sure how you can advocate the return of the likes of Monye and Easter yet criticise the likes of Strettle and Waldrom. Perhaps your Quins bias is rearing it's head.

Strettle has scored a lot more tries than Monye in the last year and Easter is 35.

6 tries vs 0 in the AP. I wonder which winger has more potential to perform......

Surely it would madness to play the current top try scorer in the AP for England......

Instead let's play some rookie with little to no experience and virtually no tries to their name like Walker or Nowell.

Chill out BS!

I agree with you that Monye should be anywhere near the Saxons, but it doesn't need 4 paragraphs on it! As to Strettle I imagine he'll be in and around the EPS training squad as cover. He knows what he's doing at Int level anyway so I wouldn't have him wasting a place in the Saxons either.

Likewise the talk about Walker is for the flaming Saxons! No one here is saying that he should play for England in the 6N's. Just that he should be in the Saxons and so by extension in and around training with the team.

BS,

This makes it even more important that Lancaster gets the selections of both squads right...something i still am not convinced he and his team are doing.

Id be happy with Strettle as one of the experienced guys over Monye etc...and also as someone who is playing well and scoring...but should he not be in the seniors if thats the case? (Though this goes back to Englands current style not helping the wingers...another story altogether)
The likes of Easter would offer more than Waldrom...in my opinion...offering top class experience to the young pretenders coming through.

It should be predominantly development with a cluster of experienced guys to guide them. For example Borthwick would be a far better pick than Robson..due to Borthwicks world class lineout abilities..would be great for the young Saxons second rows coming through...and the seniors like Lawes etc...

GeordieFalcon wrote:We think along the same lines mate. The Saxons isnt there just to win as many games.

Its a development squad, and a means for testing players who might be worth a look at , without subjecting them initially to full international games. Everything is geared towards the 1st team squad, and the identification, development and progression of talent.

As you've said, i would settle for a few defeats if it lets us see how players cope.

EDIT: You also make an important point...We both say that they should also be back up for the 1st squad / team...so are these young kids like Watson, Matthews etc good enough to slot in for a 6n game due to injuries...well they are playing premiership and european rugby already, so there shouldnt be a problem...

I genuinely think one or two youngsters can easily slot in to the team at the moment. Right now the simple game plan that we play is perfect for new players to come in to. Add to that Lancaster's built a team based around hard grafters and there should be plenty of guys to help manage any newbies. Remember most of these youngsters have already played European rugby against a lot of the players they'd be running out against in the 6N's.

My feeling is that players in the EPS should be all given a one season sabatical to go play some super rugby. If they can get selected they'd get invaluable experience playing in sides with experience and coaching set up for open, running, expansive rugby (provided they can avoid the Bulls).

They'll never learn these skills in the GP, and with the withdrawal from European rugby, the leap from english club rugby to the international stage is just too great.

What's the GP?

Yappysnap I was referring more to Nowell than Walker. Some England fans want to see Nowell as a starter already! If Monye was scoring tries, I wouldn't begrudge him being back on the England radar.

Perhaps I am a traditionalist but I see wingers first and foremost as finishers, try scorers.

Geordiefalcon I wouldn't pick Borthwick, sure he's a class lineout operator but he's retiring at the end of the season plus need to look to the future. Strettle deserves a look in simply because Yarde and Wade are injured, he's the most experienced winger other than Ashton.

Personally I would rather see May,Ashton and Brown back three in the 6 nations as things stand anyway. May is scoring tries too.

Instead of Easter, let's look at a no 8 like Ewers or Dickinson.

Hi Beshocked - I was simple referring to the Saxons squad here - not talking about the EPS at the moment.
Perhaps you are right Beshocked - there is a little bit of Quins bias in the names that I mentioned. But I can only comment on the players I've seen.
Some of those youngsters can really do with the Saxons experience, not only to experience the England set up but also mentally to know that they are on the radar should give them the mental incentive to push on and reach new levels. The Nowell's, Watsons and Sloans, Georges and Walkers are the real stars of the future and I would rather see them trialled in an A game then someone like David Paice.


As GF mentioned - I really do advocate Easter being in the Saxons over Waldrom/Crane. I think he could really offer a lot to the youngsters. I believe he works well with the young Quins back rowers and could offer that to many others in the Saxons.
My reason for Monye was the same (although currently irrelevant as he isn't playing).

Easter? Lets not be silly. I firmly believe he was dumped by England too soon, but only if he was actually going to play in the first team.
If you want the youngsters to learn from him get him in as a coach, but I suspect his prior attitude wouldnt fit with Lancasters evangelism anyway.
What Waldrom offers more than Easter is still being under 30 (no not stone years. Im not utterly convinced he really deserves a spot in the squad either tbf but Easter is a ridiculously retrograde suggestion now. Maybe if the world cup was tomorrow and England didnt have two players of a similar type established as test forces. But they do.


With the Saxons dont forget that Lancaster has changed its role and focus. Its no longer a "B" squad of players not good enough to play for the real side. Its and additional 32 elite players who they have slightly less direct control over. It may sound like just semantics but hes made it quite clear he isnt just picking kids to teach them how to play rugby, but picking players to fill specific roles in the wider squad understanding that they should be ready for inclusion in first team squads as cover.
On that basis there is space for more experienced heads in there as well as this months internet heroes.
Strettle and Waldrom probably will be in the next elite squad somewhere.

Geordiefalcon I wouldn't pick Borthwick, sure he's a class lineout operator but he's retiring at the end of the season plus need to look to the future.

BS, I was merely highlighting if we're going to have an experienced guy in there have someone of Borthwicks class over someone not as good likght Robson.

But hopefully as you say someone like Kruis or Barrow etc can take away the need for an experienced older guy in there.

On that basis there is space for more experienced heads in there as well as this months internet heroes.

Peter,

As both myself and Prop David have said...this squad should be a development squad...but one that fully backs up the senior squad covering injuries etc.

But there are many cases at the moment where the younger players are massively outplaying "the old experienced guys"...many of which have never impressed at international level when they had their chance. Why keep players like that in the squad??
Age doesnt concern me...Simon Shaw showed you can be great up to an older age...i would have picked him easily over the new pretenders.

But you have to pick on ability...if the youngsters are playing better they must be picked. And i just feel this whole selection area is one Lancaster isnt that good at.

Yep agreed. Wont he wont be so interested in doing though is picking players just because they are young, and then when theres a couple of injuries looking outside his squad of 64 for cover as happened under previous regimes.
I guess Id disagree that its a development squad in that sense, its really what hes trying to get away from. All the players should be continuously developing and if you arent good enough you dont a place within the england system. The age group squads are too some extent development sides, and of course the coaches will be working on long and short term goals with all players ...but that goes as much for the Simon Shaws as it does the cheeky young imps.
The theory should be that the match day side is made up of players who have only ever not been in and England squad because they got injured, stepping straight into the seniors from age group level and training at a higher level than their club colleagues as a unit.

The reality of course will be slightly different but you can already see it bearing fruits with guys like the Vunipola brothers.

On the specific question my argument would be that Waldrom would be in the top 6 EQ number 8s, especially if we discount Easter. As such he would deserve a spot somewhere in the set up. I wouldnt exactly be gutted if he wasnt mind.

The Saxons don't play any matches so winning them can't be a useful aim

Will the poms be allowed to tackle Dan Carter ?
Andrew Hore was just asking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lDUSoR8ZK8

Re Example Waldrom...this is where Lancaster needs to use some intelligence.

Waldrom is not good enough to start...and we have two cracking young 8's in the seniors BIlly and Ben.

The questions then are who backs them up in case either gets injured...and whos coming through for the Saxons.

Having Nick Easter in the Saxons, or Jordan Crane if he was playing top form rugby gives you a few things. It gives you experience and leadership to the whole squad...a also a player who potentially is good enough to cover 6n games if an injury crisis happens so we dont have to move Wood to 8.

Alongside him you can include someone like Ewers or Dickinson (last months internet hero) or which ever other young 8 is ready to come through.

The thing is though, i only think there should be a couple of old heads in there...3-5 in the squad...the rest should be ones who have played to prem or HC rugby for a season or more and played consistantly well...

As i have said before players like Robson, Paice, Waldrom etc should all be moved out.

The Saxons was and always will be a difficult team to select. Getting a decent balance of players who can step up to the first team at a moment's notice and brining on some quality young talents is difficult.

That is compounded by the fact that the Saxons only actually ever play two games a year. The reason for some players such as Robson and Palmer being in there initially was to give some semblance of a platform for the team to play from. If you've only got two games you need to be able to rely on a good line-out and stable scrum otherwise the whole exercise becomes redundant and pastings are dished out.

On the Easter point can anyone actually give me an international match where Easter's 'worldclass' talent shone throughout? Across 47 caps I can think of only some excellent control at the base of a retreating scrum. Has he ever won an international MOTM?

As regards the wingers it starts becoming a question of who's fit rather than who should be there. David Strettle has had some pretty poor games for England recently and the last in Argentina was woeful. I'd have little confidence in him adding very much to the backline at present.

Chjw131 wrote:
On the Easter point can anyone actually give me an international match where Easter's 'worldclass' talent shone throughout? Across 47 caps I can think of only some excellent control at the base of a retreating scrum. Has he ever won an international MOTM?

Australia 2010 and France 2008 are the two mentioned on his profile, Id guess he also got one for the 4 trys against Wales? Probably others too.
Considering hes usually up against 29 other players in a given game to get 2 from 47 (and some of those he wasnt starting) is not a bad return.
So using that as the sole statistic to judge if he ever had any really good displays for England the answer would be yes he did. And a hell of a lot for his club.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:
On the Easter point can anyone actually give me an international match where Easter's 'worldclass' talent shone throughout? Across 47 caps I can think of only some excellent control at the base of a retreating scrum. Has he ever won an international MOTM?

Australia 2010 and France 2008 are the two mentioned on his profile, Id guess he also got one for the 4 trys against Wales? Probably others too.
Considering hes usually up against 29 other players in a given game to get 2 from 47 (and some of those he wasnt starting) is not a bad return.
So using that as the sole statistic to judge if he ever had any really good displays for England the answer would be yes he did. And a hell of a lot for his club.

Its also worthwhile checking the stats on the 6N tournaments in which he took part. Things like offloads and carrys (and meters) he was always there or there abouts, and his lineout stats are pretty good. He actually did a hell of a lot, and in my mind the only thing he really lacked was any kind of pace beyond glacial. He wasnt exactly a media darling. Also his record as captain was very poor (which may have been down to being unlucky - e.g. things out of his control) but there you go. He was and is a very effective no.8, and is the type of player who will still have a few years left despite his age.

I think we are in a better place right now with BV and Morgan, but in their absence we would have done better last year to have pulled him back than played Wood at 8.

Well ok the arguement for having an experienced 8 could also be cancelled then...pick Ewers and Dickinson for the Saxons. 2 young lads playing very well.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well ok the arguement for having an experienced 8 could also be cancelled then...pick Ewers and Dickinson for the Saxons. 2 young lads playing very well.

I think you'd find it hard to find anyone to disagree with that.

One other point about Easter was that he didn't often play for England in a back row that was at all balanced. IIRC he mainly had Moody, Worsley, Haskell and Croft around him - all talented players, but worked better with a dynamic 8 like Dallaglio than a trundler like Easter.

I think he would probably go better with Robshaw and Wood than Morgan currently does, though not as well as Vunipola.

Anyway, Easter won't make either squad next year. But if we get to RWC training camp, there are injury worries over the other 8s and he's still playing well, I'd give you even money he gets a call.

Assuming Ewers wants to play for England

Someone really needs to ask him!

I dont think there is any love lost there for the Zimbabwean regime. Maybe more to do with does he want international rugby, does he want to wait for some time in the future when Zimbabwe has changed, or are there other options?

If SA is an option and one he wants to pursue playing for Exeter isnt going to help, so we can probably ignore that.

Ive suggested SA on other threads, but yes indeed he would need to be playing in SA for 3 years to qualify...something he already has with regards to England.

Its an interesting one.

Regardless we have a good stock in Morgan, Vunipola and Dickinson at Saints.

As romantic as it might sound I cant imagine in a billion years he'd turn down the chance of an EPS spot in the dream of one day representing a major international force like err zimbabwe. Indeed Id be hard pressed to believe any qualified player getting regular Jeff rugby wouldnt already have been offered the chance to play for them, one would imagine hes already politely declined at some point.

You just dashed Mugabe's dreams of lifting a world cup like his old hero did next door.

I think he's said somewhere he wants to play for England should the opportunity arise. 

Be glad if he did , he's as good as Morgan and Billy V.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well ok the arguement for having an experienced 8 could also be cancelled then...pick Ewers and Dickinson for the Saxons. 2 young lads playing very well.

I think Dickinson is 27/28 GF.

I don't think he quite has that quality to make the step up to Int rugby, looked pretty decent at AP level though.

Yeah Dickinson has been around a bit hasnt he...similar to Easter come through from the Championship hasnt he and making big splashes for Saints now. Still if he shows consistency then he's worth a look.

But we dont have much issues with many forward positions now...

Chjw131 wrote:The Saxons was and always will be a difficult team to select. Getting a decent balance of players who can step up to the first team at a moment's notice and brining on some quality young talents is difficult.

That is compounded by the fact that the Saxons only actually ever play two games a year. The reason for some players such as Robson and Palmer being in there initially was to give some semblance of a platform for the team to play from. If you've only got two games you need to be able to rely on a good line-out and stable scrum otherwise the whole exercise becomes redundant and pastings are dished out.

On the Easter point can anyone actually give me an international match where Easter's 'worldclass' talent shone throughout? Across 47 caps I can think of only some excellent control at the base of a retreating scrum. Has he ever won an international MOTM?

As regards the wingers it starts becoming a question of who's fit rather than who should be there. David Strettle has had some pretty poor games for England recently and the last in Argentina was woeful. I'd have little confidence in him adding very much to the backline at present.

I seem to remember a hat trick against Wales a few years back, he ran the whole length of 3 yards to get them all.

Whilst I cannot think of too many games where he excelled to that extent. I cannot think of many bad ones either.

Easter, as well as of his jocular personality, was a victim of the misguided belief a lot of fans seem to have that a good backrow player needs to be a pace merchant. Easter's biggest genuine weakness was that he was not a "destructive carrier" for England although at Club level he is absolutely one, so in this England side the backrow would certainly need reshuffling if he played, or we'd need a big carrier at lovk

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well ok the arguement for having an experienced 8 could also be cancelled then...pick Ewers and Dickinson for the Saxons. 2 young lads playing very well.

I think Dickinson is 27/28 GF.

I don't think he quite has that quality to make the step up to Int rugby, looked pretty decent at AP level though.

As a Saints fan I'd be inclined to agree with that assessment.

beshocked wrote:King carlos I must say I am quite confused by your options at prop. Particularly the Gloucester ones. I thought there was the common feeling that their frontrow is very weak hence their poor form. Also Paul Doran Jones has barely played for Quins has he?

Surely someone like Waller from Saints should be in the Saxons? Also how has Collier done recently for Quins?

Of course I am biased but another loosehead to watch out for is Richard Barrington of Sarries. Signed from Jersey last season, he's made good progress since trial by fire vs Saints. Shouldn't necessarily be in the Saxons yet but I would say he's done more than the likes of Wood and Mullan.


Perhaps you just picked the likes of Wood and Mullan because you've heard of them.

Tait is injured, it would be ridiculous to put him in the EPS.

I'm well aware of Waller and Collier, Beshocked. Just feel both would benefit more from staying with their clubs at the moment given they that Waller is in his first full season as first choice (and playing very well) and Collier is in a similar position.

Knight I've selected as he's been someone who's impressed me when I've seen him and we need to keep bringing THs through to find the best option behind Cole and Wilson. Doran-Jones has been in and around the squads for a long time and has steadily improved in recent years so I'd like to keep him there whilst others aren't really throwing their hands up personally.

At both LH and TH we've got a chasing pack of players without much between many of them behind Cole, Wilson, Marler, Mako and Corbs (when he's available).

LH - Mullan, Wood, Waller
TH - Brookes, Thomas, Doran-Jones, Knight, Collier - Hopefully Scott Wilson can add himself to that list soon, looks a hell of a talent!

On the point of Tait I specified that I'd only have him in there if he returned from injury strongly. Otherwise I'd be looking at Watson backing up Brown.