England Squad for NZ Tour and 6N

First topic message reminder :

And I've posed it in that order for a reason. England have already said that their objective is to win the 6N (with France away first up, that's a pretty big ask...) but thy also have a 3 game tour to NZ coming up in which the first game will be played without the AP finalists.

So the challenge is - how do you put together the 6N squad so that whoever makes the final, you have enough players who've played together by the end of the 6N that England can field a half-decent side with players from the top two sides missing? I suppose the good news is that for once the EPS is a nice mix of players from various teams, but a Saints-Sarries final would be a serious hindrance.

The EPS on 1 Aug looked like this. Who would be your squad? And how would you prepare them?

England senior EPS:

Forwards: David Attwood (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs: Chris Ashton (Saracens), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints), Alex Goode (Saracens), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Christian Wade (London Wasps), Marland Yarde (London Irish), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

England Saxons:

Forwards: Calum Clark (Northampton Saints), Jordan Crane (Leicester Tigers), Paul Doran Jones (Harlequins), Will Fraser (Saracens), James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers), George Kruis (Saracens), Kearnan Myall (London Wasps), David Paice (London Irish), George Robson (Harlequins), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers), Luke Wallace (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby), Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)

Backs: Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Elliot Daly (London Wasps), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Ugo Monye (Harlequins), Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Simpson (London Wasps), David Strettle (Saracens), Mathew Tait (Leicester Tigers), Joel Tomkins (Saracens), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

beshocked wrote:Chequeredjersey how much of his rugby has he played at 7? Plus even if you're right - by taking out Robshaw you change the whole dynamic of the England backrow. Balance is so important.

I feel that if you take out either Wood or Robshaw you significantly weaken it.

Wood has played quite a lot of rugby at 7, when SL took the job the debate was whether Wood or Robshaw would get the 7 shirt not just the captaincy as Croft was considered to be nailed on for 6.

The difference between a 6/7 is not as much as that of 8. Wood failed at 8, not because he played badly but the back row was unbalanced without a BV or Morgan as a ball carrier, we had three 6.5s

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:...

The difference between a 6/7 is not as much as that of 8. Wood failed at 8, not because he played badly but the back row was unbalanced without a BV or Morgan as a ball carrier, we had three 6.5s

Well 2 6.5's and a 6/11....

ENGLAND SENIOR EPS (33)

Forwards (17)

David Attwood (Bath Rugby)

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)

Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)

Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)

Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)

Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)

Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)

Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)

Joe Marler (Harlequins)

Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)

Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)

Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs (16)

Chris Ashton (Saracens)

Brad Barritt (Saracens)

Mike Brown (Harlequins)

Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)

Danny Care (Harlequins)

Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)

Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)

Owen Farrell (Saracens)

Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)

George Ford (Bath Rugby)

Alex Goode (Saracens)

Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)

Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Christian Wade (London Wasps)

Marland Yarde (London Irish)

Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Could be worse. Training squad for 6N-

Forwards (18)
David Attwood, Dan Cole, Dylan Hartley, Matt Kvesic, Tom Johnson, Joe Launchbury, Courtney Lawes, Joe Marler, Ben Morgan, Matt Mullan, Chris Robshaw, Ed Slater, Henry Thomas, Billy Vunipola, Mako Vunipola, Rob Webber, Tom Wood, Tom Youngs

Backs (17)
Chris Ashton, Brad Barritt, Mike Brown, Luther Burrell, Danny Care, Lee Dickson, Kyle Eastmond, Owen Farrell, George Ford, Alex Goode, Jonny May, Stephen Myler, Jack Nowell, Billy Twelvetrees, Ben Youngs, Anthony Watson, Richard Wigglesworth.

And the Saxons aren't too bad either!!

England Saxons EPS (32)
Forwards (17)

Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Will Collier (Harlequins)
Sam Dickinson (Northampton Saints)
Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs)
Will Fraser (Saracens)
James Haskell (London Wasps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Matt Mullan (London Wasps)
David Paice (London Irish)
George Robson (Harlequins)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
Luke Wallace (Harlequins)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)

Backs (15)

Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Elliot Daly (London Wasps)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Joe Simpson (London Wasps)
Mathew Tait (Leicester Tigers)
Joel Tomkins (Saracens)
Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

Can someone post the squad, i haven't seen it yet   

Take it this signals Ewers intentions to represent England. Will be interesting to see where Daly plays as well.

Biggest disappointment is no Jamie George in the Saxons instead of Paice.

Any idea who will temporarily step up in the Saxons for Watson etx?

No Cipriani, a missed opportunity to bring back a class player who is way ahead of anything else england have in one of their most problem positions, lanacaster's working men's club approach just doesn't allow for characters who may not toe his line and who get labelled as egos. Seems the biggest ego in the England camp may be the Head coach

Cips will come in for Myler in Saxons in for the Tournakent?

Hold on I thought Corbisiero, Manu Tuilagi, Parling and tom Croft were all injured for most or all of the championship?

EPS =/= 6N training squad. That is why both have separately been posted

Agree - not sure why Paice is still there!
Pretty happy with the rest - I wasn't sure that Tait had played enough to merit his inclusion.
Cipriani is still inconsistent and I'm glad he's not included.
Callum Clarke - still in there, after 1 good performance against Leinster.

Clarke was good against us last week too

Spot on really with the changes I think it's an excellent set of squads. Everyone I wanted to see come in either as injury cover or replacement is there.

Bringing George Ford into the EPS for Flood was the progressive choice as I had feared he may go for Myler's superior place kicking.

Nice to see Ed Slater get the rewards for his consistently excellent lock performances for Tigers, plus he can play in the back row.

Watson, Nowell and May with the 6N squad was the right call across the board. Surprised Lancs dropped Strettle from both squads completely but in the round I think it's the right call.

Some excellent additions to the Saxons as well with Catt, Dickinson and Dave Ewers coming in all excellent calls. PDJ drops out for Collier and deservedly so. I think Waller can feel a little aggrieved however.

On the whole excellent squads and I don't have an issue with a single pick.

Pretty happy with that. Is David Wilson injured? If he is we will be up the creek if Dan Cole picks up an injury

4 scrum halfs is excessive, and many people seemed to think Trinder was almost a shoe in after Tomkins struggles? Also what happened to Joseph, was he not in good form recently too?

beshocked wrote:Biggest disappointment is no Jamie George in the Saxons instead of Paice.

Yep agree, i'd actually missed that. The only thing I can say for George is that he needs maybe until the end of the season but that's the only poor call I would say. What's your opinion on Strettle being dropped Beshocked?

I think we know what the centre picks will be for the France game! 12. L Burrell 13. B Barritt

BamBam wrote:Pretty happy with that. Is David Wilson injured? If he is we will be up the creek if Dan Cole picks up an injury

I believe he is, still in the EPS mind.

Scrumpy wrote:

BamBam wrote:Pretty happy with that. Is David Wilson injured? If he is we will be up the creek if Dan Cole picks up an injury

I believe he is, still in the EPS mind.

Calf injury apparently. Henry Thomas will be the bench option as he was 24th man for a long time. Be interesting to see how his scrummaging holds up at this level. With Joe Marler or Mako on the other side I think he'll be ok.

No Kieran Brookes. He's been going pretty well for Falcons, excellent carrying game as well.

He might be called up to Saxons for 6N

How's this for a Saxons 6N squad, admittedly young!

1. M Mullan
2. R Webber
3. W Collier
4. E Slater
5. G Kitchener
6. D Ewers
7. L Wallace
8. S Dickinson
9. R Wigglesworth
10. H Slade
11. J May
12. L Burrell
13. E Daly
14. J Nowell
15. M Tait

16. D Paice 17. N Catt 18. H Thomas 19. G Kitchener 20. C Clark 21. J Simpson 22. S Myler 23. J Joseph

ChequeredJersey wrote:He might be called up to Saxons for 6N

Ah yes I hadn't thought about those extra call-ups.

Chjw131 wrote:How's this for a Saxons 6N squad, admittedly young!

1. M Mullan
2. R Webber
3. W Collier
4. E Slater
5. G Kitchener
6. D Ewers
7. L Wallace
8. S Dickinson
9. R Wigglesworth
10. H Slade
11. J May
12. L Burrell
13. E Daly
14. J Nowell
15. M Tait

16. D Paice 17. N Catt 18. H Thomas 19. G Kitchener 20. C Clark 21. J Simpson 22. S Myler 23. J Joseph

Clone Kitchener?

In regards to Strettle, it's evident he feels that Strettle has been given enough chances at international level. All Strettle can do is try and continue to score tries.

beshocked wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:How's this for a Saxons 6N squad, admittedly young!

1. M Mullan
2. R Webber
3. W Collier
4. E Slater
5. G Kitchener
6. D Ewers
7. L Wallace
8. S Dickinson
9. R Wigglesworth
10. H Slade
11. J May
12. L Burrell
13. E Daly
14. J Nowell
15. M Tait

16. D Paice 17. N Catt 18. H Thomas 19. G Kitchener 20. C Clark 21. J Simpson 22. S Myler 23. J Joseph

Clone Kitchener?

In regards to Strettle, it's evident he feels that Strettle has been given enough chances at international level. All Strettle can do is try and continue to score tries.

I meant G Kruis there, a long day that's still going.

I would have liked to have seen Fearns come back into the the Saxons. He's very much impressed me in the Bath games I've seen since his return from injury, and he's the bullish, gritty sort of backrow player that I think we need in the mix.

Squads need at least one backrow player that can cover 6,7,8 to a standard; often usefully employed on the bench with an element of physical impact. In the EPS & Saxons squads Johnson and Haskell would be the players that approximate that. Johnson had a great start to the season before his injury, Haskell hasn't been impressing at Wasps however. I think Fearns is a strong long term candidate for the role that should be brought in additionally if not in substitute.

How is Kitchener behind Slater for the Six Nations squad? Make no sense what so ever

Slater was due to go on the tour to Argentina before injury and isn't Kitchener more a lineout guy?

timhen wrote:I would have liked to have seen Fearns come back into the the Saxons.  He's very much impressed me in the Bath games I've seen since his return from injury, and he's the bullish, gritty sort of backrow player that I think we need in the mix.

Squads need at least one backrow player that can cover 6,7,8 to a standard; often usefully employed on the bench with an element of physical impact.  In the EPS & Saxons squads Johnson and Haskell would be the players that approximate that.  Johnson had a great start to the season before his injury, Haskell hasn't been impressing at Wasps however.  I think Fearns is a strong long term candidate for the role that should be brought in additionally if not in substitute.

I'd have had Fearns in as well. My Saxons backrow would be Fearns, Wallace, Ewers.

Haskell isn't in great form and I remain unconvinced Clark is more than a good club player. Are they not going to bother adding cover over the two upcoming Saxons matches for the injured Fraser and elevated Johnson?

What are Saints fans' opinions on Dickinson's selection? He showed good form at the beginning of the season, but seems to have dropped behind Manoa for the 8 shirt since being pulled off at half time in the first Leinster game.

Don't forget that there are 6 players in the EPS long term injured, he will probably call up replacements from the Saxons, but they do not have to be like for like, i.e. LHP for LHP. He can also call in other players from outside the Saxons if he so wishes so the EPS squad could change considerably and therefore the 6N training squad.

mbernz, I believe Dickinson has been injured and is coming back, Manoa is a better bet in the wet conditions adding bulk as well as guile. I suspect with Wood on EPS duty, Dickinson will come back in and Manoa will go into the second row to replace Lawes