Ireland v New Zealand

First topic message reminder :

Right what's done is done regarding Aus. Time to move on and look forward to the ABs. This could be one to watch from behind the couch.

I don't expect any major changes in the team. Murray for Redden being the only obvious change, possibly at tighthead, possibly in the second row. Sexton is doubtful, maybe Earls is available.

My only expectation for this game is for an improved performance as the required level of aggressiveness was just non existent last Saturday. Otherwise we are looking at some hammering.

Without stating the obvious...I would like to see our players try to copy the All Blacks in certain aspects of the game. Namely
1. Passing the ball to another Irish player who is moving forwards and preferably in space
2. When running with the ball try to avoid the opposition players as much as possible instead of seeking out contact.
that is all.

Suas an bothair agus ar aghaidh an tarbh.

Updated with Teams
All Blacks
15 Dagg,14 jane, 13 B Smith, 12 Nonu, 11 Savea, 10 Cruden, 9 A Smith
8 Read, 7 McCaw, 6 Luatua, 5 Whitelock, , 4 Romano, 3 Faumoina, 2 Hore , 1 Crockett

Ireland
R Kearney; T Bowe, B O’Driscoll, G D’Arcy, D Kearney; J Sexton, C Murray; C Healy, R Best, M Ross, D Toner, P O’Connell, P O’Mahony, S O’Brien, J Heaslip.
Replacements: S Cronin, J McGrath, D Fitzpatrick, M McCarthy, K McLaughlin, I Boss, I Madigan, L Fitzgerald.

No

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think we showed last week that the Ab's pack is beatable. Ireland need to just have 80 mins of putting their body on the line, hitting every ruck ferociously, making every carry count - ie getting over that gainline continuously.

Then i think you have more in the backs than we have and can make the most of it.

Do you think your pack is able to do that?

I'm guessing you missed the Australia game ....

We wernt great against them either...a week to regroup, who better to come out fighting against....have faith in your lads!

Hoping for this team (with these guys on standby if the injury doubts don't make it; don't expect it but it's what I think is fair.

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Tuohy
5. O'Connell
6. O'Mahony
7. O'Brien
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton (Jackson)
11. D. Kearney
12. Marshall
13. BOD (Cave)
14. Trimble
15. R. Kearney

16. Cronin 17. McGrath 18. Fitzpatrick 19. Toner 20. McLaughlin 21. Reddan 22. Madigan 23. Bowe

How long is earls out for?

What a bunch of defeatists everyone is turning into..

Too right.

Im expecting us to come out all guns blazing and full of fire and commitment at least. The shirt was shamed last week. I fully expect it to shine brightly by Sunday night, come what may. I reckon Joe tore them asunder on Monday morn. He's famous for his vicious video sessions. And that one was brutal. As were they. But if they use it positively...  Learn from it...

Believe.

I don't believe.................... we'll lose yet.
Neither do I believe we'll play badly............yet.

All those instinctive feelings hit me as my body gets into battle mode sometime on Friday usually.

I'll give an honest hit at it then.  Maybe I'll surprise myself and call it as a win for us!

I've already called it. Ireland by 1. They've been saving themselves for this one. The All Blacks will choke.

GeordieFalcon wrote:We wernt great against them either...a week to regroup, who better to come out fighting against....have faith in your lads!

Howya Geordie lad! Long time no jive an ting. Always liked de cut of yer jib man.  We have to believe or we're bollixed from the off.  

So final score will be Ireland 3 - ABs 2?

That can't work.  Em.. ABs 3 - Ireland 4

No...em..... Ireland 8 - ABs 7

Yeah, that works.  So we let the basterauds in for a try???? - Marshall to blame again!!! And Jackson missed a conversion??!!!

God, the Irish Indo ain't gonna be happy on Monday, even with the win.

Well. Missing BOD wouldn't be a disaster (just as the ABs could do without McCaw thse days).

Sexton would be a huge loss though.

Ireland have never replaced their golden generation player for player.

ABs by phrwww 35?

But both sides need multiple retirements when this autumn season closes.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Well. Missing BOD wouldn't be a disaster (just as the ABs could do without McCaw thse days).

Sexton would be a huge loss though.

Ireland have never replaced their golden generation player for player.

ABs by phrwww 35?

But both sides need multiple retirements when this autumn season closes.

This is true. He doesn't play, it lessens our chances considerably.

He and BOD will play is my guess. Phhoke Racing.

[quote="SecretFly"]So final score will be Ireland 3 - ABs 2?

That can't work.  Em.. ABs 3 - Ireland 4

No...em..... Ireland 8 - ABs 7

Yeah, that works.  So we let the basterauds in for a try???? - Marshall to blame again!!! And Jackson missed a conversion??!!!

God, the Irish Indo ain't gonna be happy on Monday, even with the win.[/quote
]



Fly come Monday, and Ireland win, this place will be insane.

Will be insane? Haven't you read some of the Irish provincialism articles? We're Irish man, we'll do ourselves in before anyone else does. Its our mad genius birthright.  

Gibson wrote:Will be insane? Haven't you read some of the Irish provincialism articles?   We're Irish man, we'll do ourselves in before anyone else does. Its our mad genius birthright.  

Sexton will be Inseine and his wife/gf enciente (probably).

Gibson wrote:Too right.

Im expecting us to come out all guns blazing and full of fire and commitment at least. The shirt was shamed last week. I fully expect it to shine brightly by Sunday night, come what may. I reckon Joe tore them asunder on Monday morn. He's famous for his vicious video sessions. And that one was brutal. As were they. But if they use it positively...  Learn from it...

Believe.

Shirt was also shamed in this game in 2012:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_IJtVmUThY

But we need a performance like this instead:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXeOMKpa6CY

#Believe

Besides your doing it for the rest of the world to stop those pesky AB's getting the unbeaten season. Id love to see the Irish lads come out after one of O'Connells team talks with fire in their eyes...

aucklandlaurie wrote: Fly come Monday, and Ireland win, this place will be insane.

We're Irish, we keep the insane rolling all season long with double portions for Lions Tours!

And I wouldn't have it any other way- I think we're gonna go out and do ourselves proud. Don't know if it will be enough to win, but I genuinely think we'll have a good performance.

aucklandlaurie wrote:Fly come Monday, and Ireland win, this place will be insane.

The insanity comes first. Then the belief that Ireland could beat the All Blacks. Then the affirmation that they won by 2-16 to 149 for 5 and Mary Robinson set up the winning score. Then the conspiracy theory...

In that parallel universe Ireland are invincible - honest they are.

Good man Quinny.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/after-a-total-non-performance-getting-ready-for-the-all-blacks-is-a-matter-of-attitude-1.1600231?page=1

Honestly the attitude of some posters here is terrible. Does everyone really just want performance from Ireland? I'm totally fed up with 'performances' against NZ. I want Ireland to win, nothing less. The attitude of some pundits, sheehan, byrne who just want a performance to keep the all blacks (who they claim are on a different planet to us!) from destroying us, it says a lot about the country and our lack of confidence. Look at england last saturday, they wanted to win, they had full confidence in doing so but their backline just couldn't get them over the line. Look at england's pack. There were moments where they destroyed the all blacks. The other suggestion from that moron sheehan is that we have to 'tuck the ball up the jumper' and make it as 'boring a game as possible.' How on earth will that work? We have a genuine innovator of highly skilled back play yet people are suggesting we don't utilise his talents for this game. Ridiculous. The all blacks are not on a different planet, they are just rugby players, france know that, england know that, but WHEN WILL IRELAND WAKE UP AND REALISE THIS, AFTER WE NEVER BEAT THEM?

Ledge the ledgebag wrote:Honestly the attitude of some posters here is terrible. Does everyone really just want performance from Ireland? I'm totally fed up with 'performances' against NZ. I want Ireland to win, nothing less. The attitude of some pundits, sheehan, byrne who just want a performance to keep the all blacks (who they claim are on a different planet to us!) from destroying us, it says a lot about the country and our lack of confidence. Look at england last saturday, they wanted to win, they had full confidence in doing so but their backline just couldn't get them over the line. Look at england's pack. There were moments where they destroyed the all blacks. The other suggestion from that moron sheehan is that we have to 'tuck the ball up the jumper' and make it as 'boring a game as possible.' How on earth will that work? We have a genuine innovator of highly skilled back play yet people are suggesting we don't utilise his talents for this game. Ridiculous. The all blacks are not on a different planet, they are just rugby players, france know that, england know that, but WHEN WILL IRELAND WAKE UP AND  REALISE THIS, AFTER WE NEVER BEAT THEM?

Ledge, I have to disagree entirely.This Irish team simply don't have the players to match the mighty All Blacks, I mean Heaslip against Read, it's almost laughable,Thus, this is why "morons" such as Sheehan say we need to play a dirty old school game, as we basically have to bring them down to our toddler level and hope for the best.
 

Rumour on Planetrugby the pack is retained. Murray in. Sexton or Jackson if the former is injured. D'arcy recalled. BOD or henshaw if injured. Bowe and the two kearneys at the back

That would be some inexperienced backline if Jackson and Henshaw start.

BOD will play, he might be on one leg but hell play.

jesus christ, fingers crossed sexton somehow recovers, I don't know how seriously the all blacs will take PJ

Heres my alternative team that hasn't been involved in the AIs. How do you think it would do against the current Ireland side?

15  Zebo
14  Gilroy
13  Olding
12  Griffin
11  Earls
10  Hanrahan
9  Marmion
8  Jordi Murphy
7  O'Donnell
6  Ruddock
5  Ryan
4  DOC
3  Moore
2  Varley
1  Kilcoyne

16  Herring
17  Black
18  Lutton
19  Copeland
20  Cave
21  P Marshall
22  Keatley

Needs more Henderson prof

Golden wrote:That would be some inexperienced backline if Jackson and Henshaw start.

BOD will play appear, he might be on one leg but hell play appear.

Now that's more like it...

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:
Sexton would be a huge loss though.

Ireland have never replaced their golden generation player for player.

Nonsense.

Some of the best retired players have been replaced by better players:

David Wallace out - Sean O'Brien in
Denis Hickey out - Tommy Bowe in
ROG out - Jonny Sexton in
Geordan Murphy out - Rob Kearney in
Jerry Flannery out - Best/Cronin/Strauss in
John Hayes out - Mike Ross in
Marcus Horan out - Cian Healy in
Stringer out - Murray in (ok Stringer was better)
O'Kelly out - Toner/McCarthy/Ryan
Leamy out - Heaslip in

Not sure what golden generation players you are referring to but seems to me most of our best players that have retired have been replaced by better or similar players.

Ledge the ledgebag wrote:jesus christ, fingers crossed sexton somehow recovers, I don't know how seriously the all blacs will take PJ

I wouldnt be too concerned if Jackson played. Actually Id nearly prefer if he did we are gonna lose either way and it would be good to see how he fares.

Just goes to show how big an impact BOD and POC had on the Irish team in their prime. They are surrounded by arguably better players but have had less success.
In fairness to BOD asking him to play 3 test matches in a row with no game time at all since the Lions tour is ridiculous. It's a miracle he has only looked mediocre. Would love to see him get his fitness back have a good winter and come in to the 6N in good form.
Unfortunately great players can't turn up for games with little or no training during the week and produce in a test match. There are no Paul McGraths in rugby. Ask Stephen Ferris. Wouldn't be surprised if this is BOD's last game. If it is I hope he can go out on a high.

GunsGerms wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:
Sexton would be a huge loss though.

Ireland have never replaced their golden generation player for player.

Nonsense.

Some of the best retired players have been replaced by better players:

David Wallace out - Sean O'Brien in
Denis Hickey out - Tommy Bowe in
ROG out - Jonny Sexton in
Geordan Murphy out - Rob Kearney in
Jerry Flannery out - Best/Cronin/Strauss in
John Hayes out - Mike Ross in
Marcus Horan out - Cian Healy in
Stringer out - Murray in (ok Stringer was better)
O'Kelly out - Toner/McCarthy/Ryan
Leamy out - Heaslip in

Not sure what golden generation players you are referring to but seems to me most of our best players that have retired have been replaced by better or similar players.

You say that GG.
Why then is Ireland as a nation nothing to be feared at the elite level?

In the period 2004-2007 we had a gameplan that everyone understood and executed with confidence, that was effective at winning us games. Same in 2009.

Now we don't, we're on our way back but we still haven't arrived.

GunsGerms wrote:Nonsense.

Some of the best retired players have been replaced by better players:

David Wallace out - Sean O'Brien in
Denis Hickey out - Tommy Bowe in
ROG out - Jonny Sexton in
Geordan Murphy out - Rob Kearney in
Jerry Flannery out - Best/Cronin/Strauss in
John Hayes out - Mike Ross in
Marcus Horan out - Cian Healy in
Stringer out - Murray in (ok Stringer was better)
O'Kelly out - Toner/McCarthy/Ryan
Leamy out - Heaslip in

I'm not being mischevous, Guns....but well, maybe I am but I just couldn't let that one past because, genuinely, I'm just not so certain about most of that.  I certainly wouldn't be inclined to hands-down declare all those replacements 'better'.  Indeed, I really couldn't agree with most of them:

David Wallace out - Sean O'Brien in:  Sean great explosive player but I'd have David Wallace who I feel would be considered more consistent if not as 'cinematic'


Denis Hickey out - Tommy Bowe in:  I know Bowe scores but, again, I'd have Hickie for his creativity from further away from the opposition tryline.  Bowe also tends to have wing handling issues that continue to plague him


ROG out - Jonny Sexton in:  I believed Sexton had the edge with his running game and physical presence but he'll need a few more productive years to be seen to have matched ROG.  He really needs form to return


Geordan Murphy out - Rob Kearney in:  So so.  I'd have neither if I'm beng honest.  Kearney isn't hitting International levels anymore than Murphy was for much of his International tenure.


Jerry Flannery out - Best/Cronin/Strauss in:  Agree

John Hayes out - Mike Ross in:  Ross better in the scrums - so much better elsewhere on the field?  Passion puts Hayes above him.

Marcus Horan out - Cian Healy in:  Agree

Stringer out - Murray in (ok Stringer was better):  Correct, Stringer was better


O'Kelly out - Toner/McCarthy/Ryan:  Kelly was of his time.  Are McCarty and Toner really International standard in their time?  We've yet to really call it on them.


Leamy out - Heaslip in:  Heaslip once was better but like Sexton, needs to really begin to prove it again.

Just my counter thoughts on that one, Guns.  We all have our opinions and I'm sure my ten cents won't come remotely close to changing yours.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:
Why then is Ireland as a nation nothing to be feared at the elite level?

We're having a rest? Didn't England have a 'rest' in the last decade?

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Nonsense.

Some of the best retired players have been replaced by better players:

David Wallace out - Sean O'Brien in
Denis Hickey out - Tommy Bowe in
ROG out - Jonny Sexton in
Geordan Murphy out - Rob Kearney in
Jerry Flannery out - Best/Cronin/Strauss in
John Hayes out - Mike Ross in
Marcus Horan out - Cian Healy in
Stringer out - Murray in (ok Stringer was better)
O'Kelly out - Toner/McCarthy/Ryan
Leamy out - Heaslip in

I'm not being mischevous, Guns....but well, maybe I am but I just couldn't let that one past because, genuinely, I'm just not so certain about most of that.  I certainly wouldn't be inclined to hands-down declare all those replacements 'better'.  Indeed, I really couldn't agree with most of them:

David Wallace out - Sean O'Brien in:  Sean great explosive player but I'd have David Wallace who I feel would be considered more consistent if not as 'cinematic'


Denis Hickey out - Tommy Bowe in:  I know Bowe scores but, again, I'd have Hickie for his creativity from further away from the opposition tryline.  Bowe also tends to have wing handling issues that continue to plague him


ROG out - Jonny Sexton in:  I believed Sexton had the edge with his running game and physical presence but he'll need a few more productive years to be seen to have matched ROG.  He really needs form to return


Geordan Murphy out - Rob Kearney in:  So so.  I'd have neither if I'm beng honest.  Kearney isn't hitting International levels anymore than Murphy was for much of his International tenure.


Jerry Flannery out - Best/Cronin/Strauss in:  Agree

John Hayes out - Mike Ross in:  Ross better in the scrums - so much better elsewhere on the field?  Passion puts Hayes above him.

Marcus Horan out - Cian Healy in:  Agree

Stringer out - Murray in (ok Stringer was better):  Correct, Stringer was better


O'Kelly out - Toner/McCarthy/Ryan:  Kelly was of his time.  Are McCarty and Toner really International standard in their time?  We've yet to really call it on them.


Leamy out - Heaslip in:  Heaslip once was better but like Sexton, needs to really begin to prove it again.

Just my counter thoughts on that one, Guns.  We all have our opinions and I'm sure my ten cents won't come remotely close to changing yours.

Fly, all of the replacements mentioned above are Lions bar some of the hookers and Ross who you agreed are better anyway. At least two of the replacements were Euro player of the year and Heaslip has been nominated for world player of the year.

Tommy Bowe has a better try scoring record than Hickey. Just 3 short and 9 less games.

O'Kelly is one of Irelands most over rated players of all time. Toner and McCarthy arent far off his level.

David Wallace was a great player but never quite reached the heights that O'Brien has.

This is the problem I feel - this backwards looking mind set.

It is irrelevant weather the Kearneys, Bowes, O'Briens etc. are as good or better than players they replaced because the game has moved on.

Other nations are producing bigger, stronger, faster, more skilful players than us - they are producing more of them and they are producing them at a younger age.

This is what we are competing against, the challenges of the present, not the ghosts of the past.

Like I admitted, Gun,  you have your reasons for giving your list... I'd still have my reasons for disagreeing with the gist of it.... except of course the ones I did agree with.  

Medals and medalions are sometimes an issue of being in the right place at the right time in history, and somebody needing a player to fill spaces (and/or national unspoken quotas - as can be the case with politically sensitive Lions selections)
As an example, saying Kearney was a Lion is not going to make me think he's any more capable of being our Irish 15 - unless and until he proves it.

Theres more quantity there today but its a bit of a mess really. You have old players, inexperienced young players and Ireland seems to be plagued by injuries. There are actually few fit players in the prime of their career.


Also Ireland is suffering because the coaches are not allowed build for the future. I'd like to see Schmidt start with a clean slate. I don't mind the likes of POC and BOD included but more 50/50s should be given to younger players. Instead of Reddan and McLaughlin why not Marmion and Ruddock? Gatland and Lancaster would select the young players and build for the future. Paul Marshall instead of Boss for instance or Kilcoyne instead of Court.

Standulstermen wrote:Needs more Henderson prof

I knew I forgot someone! Put him in instead of DOC.  

rodders wrote:This is the problem I feel - this backwards looking mind set.

Other nations are producing bigger, stronger, faster, more skilful players than us - they are producing more of them and they are producing them at a younger age.

Correct.  I did though mention such stuff a few times in the past (not remotely claiming I'm the only one who thinks our limitations are down those lines!!!!) but I do remember bringing it up on a number of threads and being shouted down by the hounds of rhyme and reason saying 'it's just a smokescreen and an excuse. We're as big, as fit, as agile and as skilled as all the rest"

NO WE'RE NOT.  

But it's about time (and hopefully Schmidt and his other coaches will now help out in this department) we took a real and honest look at how to create true International standard players in this country from the ground up - from youth.  None of this Mammy rubbish about "you can't be askin' childer to train harder or beef up earlier - it's not Christian to be thinkin' kids should be doing more field work than social networking work!"

You just have to look at the Junior WC during the summer.  The levels of professional readiness of sides like England and even Wales put Ireland's efforts at the same level to shame.

SecretFly wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:
Why then is Ireland as a nation nothing to be feared at the elite level?

We're having a rest?  Didn't England have a 'rest' in the last decade?

Absolutely. Only problem is that for about five years we had nobody of real international class to hide the cracks.
People who I consider to be underperforming by their own standards for Ireland are notably POC, SOB, Wallace and Bowe but then they don't have the players around them. Plus time is a cruel master.

How many Irishmen would make a World 23?
How many five years ago?

I really wish the Irish players weren't allowed these silly soundbites before a game (or more importantly after last weeks game). Heaslip/Bowe/Best all being quoted ah shure last week was disappointing, the ABs are only human. Any chance they could do there talking on the pitch?

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:
Why then is Ireland as a nation nothing to be feared at the elite level?

We're having a rest?  Didn't England have a 'rest' in the last decade?

Absolutely. Only problem is that for about five years we had nobody of real international class to hide the cracks.
People who I consider to be underperforming by their own standards for Ireland are notably POC, SOB, Wallace and Bowe but then they don't have the players around them. Plus time is a cruel master.

How many Irishmen would make a World 23?
How many five years ago?

But there you go.  You could play the same game with England players  - a then and now thing.  Life is linear but experiences can be cycular.  Sometimes you're up, sometimes you're down.  Sometimes that's all your responsibility (bad team), sometimes others have a hand in it (better/improved opposition).

I don't like cycular - I'd prefer linear growth upon growth upon success upon success.  But we're trying to manage the truth for now, and the truth is we're struggling to find players or shape or confidence... or all three.  
You never really can tell when all those things will happen again, as I believe a good percentage of it is outside the hands of even coaches and is more founded on chaos theory.  
But we're only trying to be in the best place possible, to hang in there, until that moment might hit us (the magic mix of the right players to the correct gameplans) and we'll be back running instead of crawling.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:
Why then is Ireland as a nation nothing to be feared at the elite level?

We're having a rest?  Didn't England have a 'rest' in the last decade?

Absolutely. Only problem is that for about five years we had nobody of real international class to hide the cracks.
People who I consider to be underperforming by their own standards for Ireland are notably POC, SOB, Wallace and Bowe but then they don't have the players around them. Plus time is a cruel master.

How many Irishmen would make a World 23?
How many five years ago?

Wallace? It would be hard to preform well when you are retired???

ME-109 wrote:I really wish the Irish players weren't allowed these silly soundbites before a game (or more importantly after last weeks game). Heaslip/Bowe/Best all being quoted ah shure last week was disappointing, the ABs are only human. Any chance they could do there talking on the pitch?

I guess, in a way, they're answering your question by choosing to talk away from the pitch, ME.  

The sum total of this side is that their eyes never look like they are ready to win anymore as they all stand in line for the anthems.  It's just not there, that glassy eyed readiness to move mountains to win.  They looked already defeated coming out for half-time against Australia despite Madigan's attempts at rabble rousing.

We've lost the ability to be manic for some reason.  Possibly too many players thinking about the techniques, impressing coaches and terrified of being the bloody 'fall-guy' in the papers and on twitter the next day.

I see that Marshall, Cave, Tuohy, Wilson and Trimble are all in the Ulster Team/bench for Friday night. So its Darcy Bod in the centres

GunsGerms wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:
Why then is Ireland as a nation nothing to be feared at the elite level?

We're having a rest?  Didn't England have a 'rest' in the last decade?

Absolutely. Only problem is that for about five years we had nobody of real international class to hide the cracks.
People who I consider to be underperforming by their own standards for Ireland are notably POC, SOB, Wallace and Bowe but then they don't have the players around them. Plus time is a cruel master.

How many Irishmen would make a World 23?
How many five years ago?

Wallace? It would be hard to preform well when you are retired???

He means Paddy. Would have been a different game against the Aussies with Paddy at 10 instead of these Leinster showboats.

Not better you understand. Just different.

Once again Tuohy comes away without a fair shot. That 'rotation policy' is working a treat, isn't it?

Given the released players I have to say I am very disappointed - same old same old.

Damage limitation with no consideration of the future.

We are going to get tonked