New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

First topic message reminder :

But didn't the WRU and its regions capitulate and join their English Masters? Have they done a U-turn now? Looks like it.

Unless they want to hype up the Low Value Cup...

You are not listening to 2fm lads.

I feel sorry for the English fans that love seeing their team in the HC. They are the real losers here.

Lol nothing solved yet then

To use a PRL turn of phrase.

The RCC is dead.

The details that will come out, and are crucial to how big this is, are about what the FFR is bringing to the table.

The FFR has obviously guaranteed some French participation. That could be all the Top14 sides, some Top14 sides or new sides made up of centrally contracted players.

But the fact that a competition will take place means that's it for the RCC. It's not going to happen. I just hope the ERC competition is strong and not a paper tiger.

so they are still hoping the PRL join?

Notch wrote:

WRU, IRFU, SRU, FRU, FIR wrote: A meeting was held in Dublin today, attended by FFR, FIR, IRFU, SRU and WRU, to discuss the on-going issues surrounding European club competitions.
 
All five Unions believe that it is critical to the interests of the game in Europe that the Unions are at the heart of the governance of cross-border club competitions given that rugby in each country is organised in a pyramidical structure.

Clubs, provinces and regional organisations form an integral part of the development of the game throughout this structure, from grassroots to the international game. Cross-border club competitions must not conflict with the development of the sport in Europe by Unions, this being in the best interest of players, spectators and the sport in general.

The five Unions reconfirmed:
• Their agreement with the new competition formats and financial distribution formula previously agreed by the six Unions who attended the mediated meeting in Dublin on 23-24 October (http://www.ercrugby.com/news/25300.php ).

Following today's discussions, the five Unions have agreed the following:

• A European club competition is to take place during the 2014/2015 season following an optimised sporting and economic format with 20 teams, no matter how many countries are involved.

• The competition will be driven by the existing organisation (currently named ERC) which will remain in charge of the centralised sale and management of all commercial rights, amongst other things.

• Discussions over governance will be pursued in order to optimise the internal functioning of the existing organisation (currently named ERC).

• The common aim is to move eventually towards the integration of European competitions within an all-encompassing European rugby framework.

So, sorry if dense. What does it all mean? Still working out details between the 5 nations involved?

(Thanks Notch for posting.)

It means absolutely nothingquinns.

Nothing has changed

The common aim is to move eventually towards the integration of European competitions within an all-encompassing European rugby framework.

What does that mean?

Euro super league?

The leagues acting as conferences within a larger tournament?

So does this mean we can finally get Russian teams involved in the Amlin?

quinsforever wrote:so they are still hoping the PRL join?

I think that ship has sailed. I'm sure the door will be open in 2015/2016.

The PRL have been the first to say they can't be forced to take part in ERC competitions and we've finally got the message and got on with organising next years competition without them. Sad, but also sensible and the only option left in the circumstances.

It tells me that it eventually wants something like Uefa( a solid European association that has all power and can't be challengend) and to also get England back in the tournie

observations:

it only mentioned 2014/15. Not a new ERC participation agreement and 7 year extension.

it doesnt mention english clubs not playing

it doesnt mention which or whether french clubs are playing

"optimised sporting and economic format" - wtf does that mean, particularly the economic bit?

quinsforever wrote:so they are still hoping the PRL join?

If McCafferty is to be believed then PRL are not able to join whilst tied to their BT contract. Maybe there's a way out of it for them. I don't know, but it's a real shame for the players, and the fans, if PRL are out.

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:so they are still hoping the PRL join?

If McCafferty is to be believed then PRL are not able to join whilst tied to their BT contract. Maybe there's a way out of it for them. I don't know, but it's a real shame for the players, and the fans, if PRL are out.

i agree its pretty clear prl cant join. so why isnt that addressed or mentioned?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:You are not listening to 2fm lads.

What are they saying McLady?

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:so they are still hoping the PRL join?

If McCafferty is to be believed then PRL are not able to join whilst tied to their BT contract. Maybe there's a way out of it for them. I don't know, but it's a real shame for the players, and the fans, if PRL are out.

i agree its pretty clear prl cant join. so why isnt that addressed or mentioned?

Because just maybe there's a way back for them. A slim chance perhaps. I'm sure more details will follow shortly to fill the gaps.

The major thing to come out of this is that we are moving towards pan-European competition- by that I assume they mean season long competition not just a Cup.

I can see there being a Union run competition with French, Italian, Scottish, Irish and Welsh teams and then private leagues with English and French clubs- a schism that may never be mended.

We simply can't go down the private route- we are not making up ground on the SH sides and the answer could be to develop a European version of Super Rugby with Union run sides with strict limits on foreign players. I genuinely believe new French regions with central contracts are a real possibility now and long-term.

The priority for European rugby simply has to be to close the gap in quality on the SH and improve the standard of our test sides and thats just not happening right now because our structures below test level are sub-optimal- particularly in France.

and presumably the welsh regions are somehow back in the fold in spite of not being mentioned explicitly?

quinsforever wrote:so they are still hoping the PRL join?

Honestly not sure Quins. I was trolling through other forums thought and there was a tweet from Leicester CE Simon Cohen which stated that the BT deal meant they were not able to participate in erc run tournaments

Notch wrote:The major thing to come out of this is that we are moving towards pan-European competition- by that I assume they mean season long competition not just a Cup.

I can see there being a Union run competition with French, Italian, Scottish, Irish and Welsh teams and then private leagues with English and French clubs- a schism that may never be mended.

We simply can't go down the private route- we are not making up ground on the SH sides and the answer could be to develop a European version of Super Rugby with Union run sides with strict limits on foreign players.

I genuinely believe new French regions with central contracts are a real possibility now and long-term.

terrible idea if thats where they are going. english and french rugby like their local and national rivalries. takes decades to build that.

euro super rugby is completely barmy idea that could only be arrived at by control freaks who want to destroy the strength of english and french club rugby, like WRU did to wales.

quinsforever wrote:and presumably the welsh regions are somehow back in the fold in spite of not being mentioned explicitly?

You can assume that they will go where the money is. No money in the RCC if it doesn't happen.

Remember they need the WRUs permission to join a new competition, same as the French clubs need the FFRs permission, and they don't have it.

Standulstermen wrote:

quinsforever wrote:so they are still hoping the PRL join?

Honestly not sure Quins. I was trolling through other forums thought and there was a tweet from Leicester CE Simon Cohen which stated that the BT deal meant they were not able to participate in erc run tournaments

Isn't there some line in the release that say "currently called the ERC?"

Loophole?

Yeah I noticed that.. And thought it was strange,. You might be on to something

Potentially lads but I suspect BT don't give two hoots about what the erc is called, only that they have already a deal agreed with sky

quins, last year Clermont and Toulon contested the Heineken Cup final and the France test team were dire. The FFR can see that the system is failing.

Test rugby is our only measure of success and the SH Unions with their central contracts and cross-border league have been kicking our arses for years. If the PRL and LNR aren't going to be part of the solution then whats the point in it all?

Its also stipulated in the Unions announcement:

"The competition will be driven by the existing organisation (currently named ERC)"

Will they just change name to get the English clubs in?

stub wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

quinsforever wrote:so they are still hoping the PRL join?

Honestly not sure Quins. I was trolling through other forums thought and there was a tweet from Leicester CE Simon Cohen which stated that the BT deal meant they were not able to participate in erc run tournaments

Isn't there some line in the release that say "currently called the ERC?"

Loophole?

i think that refers to their ambitions for ERC to do more than just run the European Rugby Cup. don't think that's there to give PRL wiggle room.

Standulstermen wrote:

quinsforever wrote:so they are still hoping the PRL join?

Honestly not sure Quins. I was trolling through other forums thought and there was a tweet from Leicester CE Simon Cohen which stated that the BT deal meant they were not able to participate in erc run tournaments

Perhaps something to do with the ongoing discussions re cross-channel wholesale deals between BT Sport and Sky?

Notch wrote:quins, last year Clermont and Toulon contested the Heineken Cup final and the France test team were dire. The FFR can see that the system is failing.

Test rugby is our only measure of success and the SH Unions with their central contracts and cross-border league have been kicking our arses for years. If the PRL and LNR aren't going to be part of the solution then whats the point in it all?

and you think a euro super rugby league is the answer? comparing SA, AUS, NZ (invariably 3 of top 4 in IRB rankings, each w 5 teams in SR) with clubs in Eng, Fra, Ire, Wal, Sco, Ita should highight the issue for you.

absolutely zero chance of it happening. zippo. zero. the profesional genie is out of the bottle and much as Camou might like it there is no chance of him creating an entirely new clubs landscape and league in france. nor ritchie in england.

quinsforever wrote:

stub wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:

quinsforever wrote:so they are still hoping the PRL join?

Honestly not sure Quins. I was trolling through other forums thought and there was a tweet from Leicester CE Simon Cohen which stated that the BT deal meant they were not able to participate in erc run tournaments

Isn't there some line in the release that say "currently called the ERC?"

Loophole?

i think that refers to their ambitions for ERC to do more than just run the European Rugby Cup. don't think that's there to give PRL wiggle room.

It might be, but I doubt it. I think 'if' PRL want in then their hope rests in BT releasing them from the contract.

They don't have to, but they do have to listen to the other four out of six Unions who want this- or go their own way for good, leave Rugby Union.

Why didn't the ERC speak to the prl and try to sort this out before signing the sky deal?

quinsforever wrote:

Notch wrote:quins, last year Clermont and Toulon contested the Heineken Cup final and the France test team were dire. The FFR can see that the system is failing.

Test rugby is our only measure of success and the SH Unions with their central contracts and cross-border league have been kicking our arses for years. If the PRL and LNR aren't going to be part of the solution then whats the point in it all?

and you think a euro super rugby league is the answer? comparing SA, AUS, NZ (invariably 3 of top 4 in IRB rankings, each w 5 teams in SR) with clubs in Eng, Fra, Ire, Wal, Sco, Ita should highight the issue for you.

absolutely zero chance of it happening. zippo. zero. the profesional genie is out of the bottle and much as Camou might like it there is no chance of him creating an entirely new clubs landscape and league in france. nor ritchie in england.

I think it has to happen, quins, to counter any future threat from breakaway clubs operating under a new code.

it's so depressing that these unaccountable blazers want to actually increase their stranglehold on rugby at all levels. it is so contrary to everything i believe in. i want no part of an organisation that sees control as its primary mandate, piggy-backing on top of commercial leagues.

i hope that prl and lnr clubs decline to join and just focus on their own domestic leagues. A domestic knockout cup and expanding the league by a couple of teams would do wonders for their finances, especially in france.

Notch wrote:They don't have to, but they do have to listen to the other four out of six Unions who want this- or go their own way for good, leave Rugby Union.

why? please explain. who is the "they" that you are referring to?

quinsforever wrote:it's so depressing that these unaccountable blazers want to actually increase their stranglehold on rugby at all levels. it is so contrary to everything i believe in. i want no part of an organisation that sees control as its primary mandate, piggy-backing on top of commercial leagues.

i hope that prl and lnr clubs decline to join and just focus on their own domestic leagues. A domestic knockout cup and expanding the league by a couple of teams would do wonders for their finances, especially in france.

Someone will always be in control. If not the Unions then the likes of PRL/LNR.

Leave rugby union. What is he talking about?

quinsforever wrote:

Notch wrote:They don't have to, but they do have to listen to the other four out of six Unions who want this- or go their own way for good, leave Rugby Union.

why? please explain. who is the "they" that you are referring to?

The French and English. I become more and more convinced that the best solution is for private French and English clubs to form their own competitions, external to the IRB, with players in those competitions ineligible for international rugby whilst we focus on coming up with the pan-European structure that best prepares us for test rugby.

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Notch wrote:quins, last year Clermont and Toulon contested the Heineken Cup final and the France test team were dire. The FFR can see that the system is failing.

Test rugby is our only measure of success and the SH Unions with their central contracts and cross-border league have been kicking our arses for years. If the PRL and LNR aren't going to be part of the solution then whats the point in it all?

and you think a euro super rugby league is the answer? comparing SA, AUS, NZ (invariably 3 of top 4 in IRB rankings, each w 5 teams in SR) with clubs in Eng, Fra, Ire, Wal, Sco, Ita should highight the issue for you.

absolutely zero chance of it happening. zippo. zero. the profesional genie is out of the bottle and much as Camou might like it there is no chance of him creating an entirely new clubs landscape and league in france. nor ritchie in england.

I think it has to happen, quins, to counter any future threat from breakaway clubs operating under a new code.

the rabo is a poopie. and you can't polish a poopie. making it a super-sized poopie is not going to alter that fact. only the irish clubs do well out of the current situation. i can see why you would be keen, but just because you've won this battle doesn't mean that the war is over at all. in anything camou has left a poison chalice for his successor and the only person with any credibility or integrity in many people's eyes is ian ritchie.

mystiroakey wrote:Why didn't the ERC speak to the prl and try to sort this out before signing the sky deal?

The PRL's position from the word go has been "we will not negotiate with the Unions."

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:it's so depressing that these unaccountable blazers want to actually increase their stranglehold on rugby at all levels. it is so contrary to everything i believe in. i want no part of an organisation that sees control as its primary mandate, piggy-backing on top of commercial leagues.

i hope that prl and lnr clubs decline to join and just focus on their own domestic leagues. A domestic knockout cup and expanding the league by a couple of teams would do wonders for their finances, especially in france.

Someone will always be in control. If not the Unions then the likes of PRL/LNR.

of course someone's in control. but for the clubs its about money. for the unions (ex ian ritchie) it's about tightening their vice like grip on every level of rugby they can, its about ego and power, not money.

Notch wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Notch wrote:They don't have to, but they do have to listen to the other four out of six Unions who want this- or go their own way for good, leave Rugby Union.

why? please explain. who is the "they" that you are referring to?

The French and English. I become more and more convinced that the best solution is for private French and English clubs to form their own competitions, external to the IRB, with players in those competitions ineligible for international rugby whilst we focus on coming up with the pan-European structure that best prepares us for test rugby.

What another code of rugby. Omg are you for real dude.. That would kill rugby union.. There are already to many codes

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Notch wrote:quins, last year Clermont and Toulon contested the Heineken Cup final and the France test team were dire. The FFR can see that the system is failing.

Test rugby is our only measure of success and the SH Unions with their central contracts and cross-border league have been kicking our arses for years. If the PRL and LNR aren't going to be part of the solution then whats the point in it all?

and you think a euro super rugby league is the answer? comparing SA, AUS, NZ (invariably 3 of top 4 in IRB rankings, each w 5 teams in SR) with clubs in Eng, Fra, Ire, Wal, Sco, Ita should highight the issue for you.

absolutely zero chance of it happening. zippo. zero. the profesional genie is out of the bottle and much as Camou might like it there is no chance of him creating an entirely new clubs landscape and league in france. nor ritchie in england.

I think it has to happen, quins, to counter any future threat from breakaway clubs operating under a new code.

the rabo is a poopie. and you can't polish a poopie. making it a super-sized poopie is not going to alter that fact.  only the irish clubs do well out of the current situation. i can see why you would be keen, but just because you've won this battle doesn't mean that the war is over at all. in anything camou has left a poison chalice for his successor and the only person with any credibility or integrity in many people's eyes is ian ritchie.

I really feared we were going to see this sort of reaction from you as it became increasingly likely that the RCC was never going to happen.  Maybe you should take a break from the boards until you've calmed down a bit as you are looking silly referring to the Rabo as such.

Guardian take on the meeting:

English clubs' hopes of forming a breakaway European tournament next season are in danger of being shattered by the French Rugby Federation's attempts to persuade its clubs to abandon the idea.

If a majority of the Top 14 teams can be convinced to pull out of the planned rival competition, the Heineken Cup will go ahead without any English involvement and Premiership teams will have no European rugby next season.

The Six Nations unions minus England agreed in Dublin on Thursday that they would try to save the current tournament at the expense of the proposed Rugby Champions Cup after the president of the French federation, Pierre Camou, said he was confident enough of his clubs would side with him to make the Heineken Cup commercially viable. Those clubs will be offered financial incentives to do so.

The English and French clubs announced two months ago that they were setting up the Rugby Champions Cup next season having last year given notice that they were pulling out of European Rugby Cup Ltd, the body that organises the Heineken Cup. It would be a tournament run by clubs, not unions.

Five of the six unions that control ERC met on Thursday after agreeing that they would not give in on the issue of governance. The Rugby Football Union, which in the past three months has tried to broker a deal, was not invited. Neither were representatives from Premiership Rugby or Ligue Nationale de Rugby.

Camou told the meeting he was confident five Top 14 would remain in ERC and that he was looking for three more to join with the 12 RaboDirect Pro 12 teams in a 20-strong Heineken Cup. The Amlin Challenge Cup would be shelved, both on grounds of cost and because there would not be enough teams to take part.

ERC officials were at the meeting and told the unions that although there would be a decrease in revenue without the English, no one would take a financial hit because the 24% of the proceeds that Premiership Rugby receives would be shared by the other five countries. Sky, which last season signed a four-year extension to its contract to televise the tournament, would be the broadcast partner.

A statement from the five unions is expected on Friday morning and it will include an invitation to Premiership Rugby to remain in the Heineken Cup and ERC. The English clubs have been unequivocal in their refusal to play in the tournament as it is currently structured, and although the unions this season made concessions over the number of teams involved, qualification and the division of money, they baulked over handing over control.

Ian Ritchie, the chief executive of the RFU, has held several meetings with European rugby's main stakeholders in the past couple of months, producing models of how a tournament could be run commercially and on a day-to-day basis by clubs with unions in charge of administrative aspects such as discipline, anti-doping and the appointment of match officials.

Ritchie was making progress until Camou, under pressure from his compatriot Bernard Lapasset, the chairman of the International Rugby Board, who is opposed to clubs running a cross-border tournament, said he would prevent the Top 14 clubs from taking part in the Rugby Champions Cup and made financial overtures to tempt them into remaining in ERC.

Yet it was only five months ago that the FFR, which had served notice of pulling out of ERC with its clubs last year, agreed with LNR that a new company should be set up to replace ERC and be based in Lausanne. The future of the Heineken Cup now hinges on the French union while the RFU, which did not give notice to leave ERC, has been left on the outside in a move that may come to haunt the Celtic unions.

If Camou succeeds and the Heineken Cup goes ahead next season without the English, it will be a repeat of 1998-99 when the English clubs pulled out of the Heineken Cup, along with Cardiff and Swansea, but returned to the fold the following season. It is that prospect which is convincing Sky to remain involved, although any more than a year without the Premiership sides would test their resolve.

Premiership Rugby has insisted that its members would be able to absorb the financial blow a lack of European rugby would bring. Its television deal with BT Sport includes provision from next season for a cross-border tournament and it remains to be seen whether the company would be prepared to pay some of the extra with the long-term goal of getting the Rugby Champions Cup running.

It is all down to the French clubs, as it was in 1998 when they saved the Heineken Cup. Premiership Rugby and LNR officials met in Paris on Wednesday when the Top 14 sides said they would stand firm with the English, but as the last 18 months have shown, the French can be as changeable as the weather.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/nov/21/english-clubs-unions-save-heineken-cup

quinsforever wrote:it's so depressing that deep pocketed money-men aren't allowed increase their stranglehold on rugby at all levels. it is so contrary to everything i believe in. i want no part of an organisation that doesn't see money as its primary mandate, piggy-backing on top of a hundred years of rugby history.

Fixed that for you....

Artful_Dodger wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Why didn't the ERC speak to the prl and try to sort this out before signing the sky deal?

The PRL's position from the word go has been "we will not negotiate with the Unions."

While all the time stating that the Erc were refusing to negotiate with them. The Erc kept it in their pants and didn't shoot their mouth off in the hope that something could be worked out behind closed doors.

Prl however kept up their mouth and trousers the whole time and backed themselves into a corner.

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:it's so depressing that these unaccountable blazers want to actually increase their stranglehold on rugby at all levels. it is so contrary to everything i believe in. i want no part of an organisation that sees control as its primary mandate, piggy-backing on top of commercial leagues.

i hope that prl and lnr clubs decline to join and just focus on their own domestic leagues. A domestic knockout cup and expanding the league by a couple of teams would do wonders for their finances, especially in france.

Someone will always be in control. If not the Unions then the likes of PRL/LNR.

of course someone's in control. but for the clubs its about money. for the unions (ex ian ritchie) it's about tightening their vice like grip on every level of rugby they can, its about ego and power, not money.

Its about ego and power????? Or saving the game from being the mess that football has become???

mystiroakey wrote:

Notch wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Notch wrote:They don't have to, but they do have to listen to the other four out of six Unions who want this- or go their own way for good, leave Rugby Union.

why? please explain. who is the "they" that you are referring to?

The French and English. I become more and more convinced that the best solution is for private French and English clubs to form their own competitions, external to the IRB, with players in those competitions ineligible for international rugby whilst we focus on coming up with the pan-European structure that best prepares us for test rugby.

What another code of rugby. Omg are you for real dude.. That would kill rugby union.. There are already to many codes

It seems like the PRL just aren't willing to play ball. I want the English and French involved- but not with a gun to everyone else's head all the time.

The Grauniad (mouthpiece of PRL, etc) reckons that Camou has 5 T14 clubs in his pocket, and is looking for 3 more to join with the 12 rabo clubs in a 20 team HC, with no Amlin.
 
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/nov/21/english-clubs-unions-save-heineken-cup

Edit: Repeat of Stub's post