New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

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But didn't the WRU and its regions capitulate and join their English Masters? Have they done a U-turn now? Looks like it.

Unless they want to hype up the Low Value Cup...

But how does it control the purse strings? If the deal was £X goes into the pot for X games. What more is needed to know? I understand why the PRL are not willing to show their entire domestic contract and if some is redacted then that would satisfy the unions.

Saru subsidise Aus and NZ in the way the prl subsuidise the rabo unions - ie not at all. The contest sold is the super 15. Without the other teams SARU have nothing to sell. Similarly the PRL are discovering that without the rest of the teams they have nothing to sell. there is no subsidy in either case. Subsidy is a transfer of money from one entity to another. there is no transfer of money

broadlandboy wrote:Sin e depends whether they take a short or long view. How long could ARU/NZRFU last without SA money?

How long would the SARU & England (kicked out of the Six Nations) last without international rugby.

Remember, thats what pays the big bucks.

I'd imagine some old style touring would be very popular in Ireland and France. 1.2m people in Ireland alone watched Munster v the All Blacks in Thomond Park. Sky (& BT) would pay big money for games like that.

Then you could have Leinster v the Blues, Ulster v Chiefs & Munster v the Crusaders.

I'd love that!

broadlandboy wrote:Just saying but if the English/French & SA decided to leave the IRB & set up an alternative who would fund the IRB? Not saying that they would or are even looking at but just a Question

the rest of the unions - and the breakaway wouldn't have anything much to sell and would have no WC representation for example

broadlandboy wrote:Just saying but if the English/French & SA decided to leave the IRB & set up an alternative who would fund the IRB? Not saying that they would or are even looking at but just a Question

The World Cup is the main source of funds for the IRB. It actually don't need a lot of money to fund itself. Some activities would suffer - ie - grants to developing nations, probably wouldn't be a U20s world cup every year - that kind of thing.

Luckily, they also run Rugby 7s which is now an Olympic sport.

Do you really think the IRB will not take sanctions if the PRL ruin both the eruopean cup and the super 15? I could forsee the rfu being thrown out of the IRB unless they acted against the PRL to stop a breakaway like this

TJ wrote:Do you really think the IRB will not take sanctions if the PRL ruin both the eruopean cup and the super 15?  I could forsee the rfu being thrown out of the IRB unless they acted against the PRL to stop a breakaway like this

They really are out of control now.

One part of me is sorry that the PRL, WRR & LNR won't be getting together. I'd say it would be soap opera entertainment to try and get all of them working together.  

The more this goes on the more the prl are getting isolated and desperate! The game is up and it's all about how they are going to save face! The sa thing is absolute pie in the sky and just a measure of desperate they are becoming!

Nobody knows how this is going to end but I reckon the hc will go ahead with all nations except the English and quiet frankly I don't think it will take to much from the tournament! All the big guns will sti be there Toulouse Clermont Munster Leinster Ospreys Toulon etc.

broadlandboy wrote:Just saying but if the English/French & SA decided to leave the IRB & set up an alternative who would fund the IRB? Not saying that they would or are even looking at but just a Question

Just a Question? Surely you're aware that they are the biggest nations financially. You could get a job with the PRL.

What I see from the latest developments
1) the French union are confident that they have enough teams willing to go into a reconfigured European cup under ERC control
2) the french union are confident in their legal ability to prevent a breakaway from any french clubs
3) the PRL have refused to compromise an inch on any aspect unlike all the rest of the stakeholders
4) the PRL are isolated and desperate
5) all the unions apart from the RFU are completely solid and the RFU still cannot come off the fence

My guess is that some english clubs will breakaway from the PRL and / or McCaffrey will be removed

Can anyone confirm that some PRL clubs are community / fan / trust owned?

Leicester and Exeter I think are the only ones

HammerofThunor wrote:Leicester and Exeter I think are the only ones

Ta. Leicester? they could end up being pivotal in this then.

I don't think any of the premiership teams will break ranks.

Not even if they have no european rugby and are not beholden to a single owner?  Its only a possibility but I have heard grumblings from PRL teams over the nature of the PRLs actions - but only grumblings

I could see this leading to the collapse of the PRL How anyone could have confidence in McCaffrey after this debacle is beyond me.

Nah I can't see it either

Like I said they are the ones losing out and frankly look stupid! Tigers are the only English team with real European pedigree! But if they don't break ranks then they are as silly as the rest

Mainly because they're signed up until 2016 and would be done for breach of contract. But I don't think they would anyway.

The only ones who have baulked against the PRL has been Bath and Saracens. If they want to break ranks you're welcome to them. I'm sure they'll be ecstatic to work without a salary cap or foreign player quotas like Toulon.

Signed up for what tho?  Would they be in breach of contract for joining the ERC run euro cup?  Perhaps a few heads will roll and that will be enough.

Edit - ta for that Hammer

TJ wrote:What I see from the latest developments
1) the French union are confident that they have enough teams willing to go into a reconfigured European cup under ERC control
2) the french union are confident in their legal ability to prevent a breakaway from any french clubs
3) the PRL have refused to compromise an inch on any aspect unlike all the rest of the stakeholders
4) the PRL are isolated and desperate
5) all the unions apart from the RFU are completely solid and the RFU still cannot come off the fence

My guess is that some english clubs will breakaway from the PRL and / or McCaffrey will be removed

Can anyone confirm that some PRL clubs are community / fan / trust owned?

A lot of the PRL club owners have remained very quite. Its really Wray & Craig doing most of the talking. I thought it was interesting that in the comments section of the ESPN article about Wray talking about the PRL being serfs (the relationship is landlord/tenant and lord/serf by the way), a member of the Wasps staff (facebook login) posted this comment.

Rob Smith · Academy Manager at London Wasps
Yes, let's stop making anything in the UK and put all our workers out of jobs 'cos it's cheaper to make everything aboard....stuff the quality it's just the money and profit that counts. Get out of the game you do not understand sport.

http://www.espn.co.uk/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/206899.html

Other interesting comment:

The restraint of trade case won't stand up in court. His small business is basically a franchise reselling a patented product. The product can only be sold within HQs guidelines. End of!

The IRB/Unions are the patent holders for Rugby Union.

TJ wrote:Signed up for what tho?  Would they be in breach of contract for joining the ERC run euro cup?  Perhaps a few heads will roll and that will be enough.

Edit - ta for that Hammer

Signed up to the PRL. The PRL negotiates with the unions on the behalf of the clubs and they've agreed to act collectively.

Actually 2016 is the EPS agreement with the RFU. Not sure what period the PRL thing covers. Possible 2018 as that what the current TV covers up until. Or it could be next year.

But what benefit would Leicester have? And why would them not having an owner have to do with anything? As Sin e already said we've only really heard from two and everyone thinks they're knobs and they hate the PRL restrictions. Much like Toulon. So you really want these guys on your side?

The benefit to leicester would be playing in the European cup. If they are fan owned the fans might have a different viewpoint to that of a single owner IE more rugby orientated less money orientated - pure speculation from me but I would be very suprised if there was not some fallout for this within the english clubs

So they benefit from being in a European cup but possibly lose the premiership? Or at least their share of any TV deals, etc. I think they'll find the Tigers fans would be more aggrieved if they put the league in danger than a European cup.

Also just speculation.

They've already said they're prepared for playing in no European game so I'm hoping they're not surprised.

I bet a lot of club chairmen / CEOs are looking very closely at the agreements right now. That quote from Rob Smith shows a lot of anger and I bet he is not the only one appalled at the behaviour of McCaffrey and Wray

Don't mistake anger at Saracens and Bath with anger at the PRL. Especially considering Saracens have just bought Vunipola from Wasps. Teams like Wasps get the most out of the PRL.

TJ wrote:I bet a lot of club chairmen / CEOs are looking very closely at the agreements right now.  That quote from Rob Smith shows a lot of anger and I bet he is not the only one appalled at the behaviour of McCaffrey and Wray

As many have pointed out, the PRL had some valid issues with the existing set up. It's not what they wanted, it's how they've gone about it that is so incompetent.

Whatever the outcome now, McCaffrey and Wray have done a Ratner-esque job of destroying their own 'personal brands'. Their days must be numbered.

A pair of Geralds.

Its ngher at McCaffrey and Wray - Wray in that quote "Get out of the game you do not understand sport" I can see that anger causing great trouble in the PRL unless heads roll

I think they'd be more annoyed with calls from Wray and Craig to increase or get rid of the salary cap.

The PRL teams can survive without Europe but cant without the Aviva, so cant see any putting that at risk to play in europe

But would playing in an ERC run euro cup put them in breach of ap agreements?

TJ wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:How is what PRL did selling their rights any different to allowing the French & Italians to sell theirs?

Because the PRLK sold the rights to something that did not exist and that required other s to agree to for it to exist.  Nor did the PRL discuss this with anyone including their supposed allies the RFU and the LNR

Each country originally controls the TV rights to any games held in their territory irrespective of who they are playing and in whatever competition.  Under the ERC accord the ability to negotiate those club rights as a block were passed on to it by its members.  When France and England announced they were leaving the ERC the ability to negotiate the rights for their future home games reverted back to them.

HammerofThunor wrote:Don't mistake anger at Saracens and Bath with anger at the PRL. Especially considering Saracens have just bought Vunipola from Wasps. Teams like Wasps get the most out of the PRL.

Would Saracens have paid a transfer fee to Wasps?

For a guy they don't have a contract with? No. Why would they?

No as he was out of contract

niwatts wrote:

TJ wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:How is what PRL did selling their rights any different to allowing the French & Italians to sell theirs?

Because the PRLK sold the rights to something that did not exist and that required other s to agree to for it to exist.  Nor did the PRL discuss this with anyone including their supposed allies the RFU and the LNR

Each country originally controls the TV rights to any games held in their territory irrespective of who they are playing and in whatever competition.  Under the ERC accord the ability to negotiate those club rights as a block were passed on to it by its members.  When France and England announced they were leaving the ERC the ability to negotiate the rights for their future home games reverted back to them.

But the RCC did not exist and cannot without the other unions teams involved and the PRL "sold" the rights to all games including those between other unions teams not involving english teams and not on english soil. If they had only sold the rights to PRL teams home games then there would have been no huge issue

Did they? Everything they've said suggests otherwise. Browne said they had sold the other games but he hasn't seen the contract.

Where is the evidence that PRL sold rights to matches outside of England?

What the PRL said. They were saying how much the RCC was worth and how much each union would get from it. That implies they had "sold" all the games.

TJ wrote:

niwatts wrote:

TJ wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:How is what PRL did selling their rights any different to allowing the French & Italians to sell theirs?

Because the PRLK sold the rights to something that did not exist and that required other s to agree to for it to exist.  Nor did the PRL discuss this with anyone including their supposed allies the RFU and the LNR

Each country originally controls the TV rights to any games held in their territory irrespective of who they are playing and in whatever competition.  Under the ERC accord the ability to negotiate those club rights as a block were passed on to it by its members.  When France and England announced they were leaving the ERC the ability to negotiate the rights for their future home games reverted back to them.

But the RCC did not exist and cannot without the other unions teams involved and the PRL "sold" the rights to all games including those between other unions teams not involving english teams and not on english soil. If they had only sold the rights to PRL teams home games then there would have been no huge issue

Find me a quote where it states that they sold the rights to "all games including those between other unions teams not involving english teams and not on english soil".  There aren't any, because that would make no sense at all.

It doesn't matter whether the RCC existed or not, if the French and English don't pass on their TV rights to another body they are ultimately in charge of all future games held on their soil, they don't need any permission from who they are playing.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm less clear than I thought as there is so much conjecture but the numbers bandied about for the money that would come to the rabo unions teams is the BT deal money

 Could the figures quoted by PRL not include anything for other games so would be a minimum? Or valueing the games at 0:whistle: 

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