Australia vs England 1st test match thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

The Ashes - 1st Test, Brisbane
21-25 November, 2013

Australia:
CJL Rogers, DA Warner, SR Watson, MJ Clarke*, SPD Smith, GJ Bailey,
BJ Haddin†, PM Siddle, MG Johnson, NM Lyon, RJ Harris.

England:
AN Cook*, MA Carberry, IJL Trott, KP Pietersen, IR Bell, JE Root,
MJ Prior†, SCJ Broad, GP Swann, JM Anderson, CT Tremlett

Umpires: Aleem Dar (Pakistan) and HDPK Dharmasena (Sri Lanka)
TV umpire: M Erasmus (South Africa)
Match referee: JJ Crowe (New Zealand)
Reserve umpire: P Wilson (Australia)

[VTR]

I think you both have a point on Root. He has played more than one good innings having done well at 6 with an important 70-odd on debut and a fluent century vs NZ. Following those good performances he was promoted up the order, that really didn't work out very well so he is back down the order to hopefully re-discover the form and confidence he had before.

Long-term the management definitely hope he will come through as Cook's opening partner.

[Mike Selig]

I like Root, but for me he is far better suited to number 6 than opening. However because he hangs back, he will struggle to pick up the slightly fuller length balls, and that is exacerbated when against real pace, because he doesn't fully transfer his weight into the ball so is somewhat caught on the move. His dismissal today as well as the 1st innings at Lords are indicative of this.

This is not trying to be overly critical: the guy is very good mentally, very organised, has a wide range of strokes but can also keep things ticking over, and is technically England's best player of spin bowling (I rate KP marginally better overall, because he can scare the bowlers in a way which Root can't). He has, in other words, many many attributes, but he also has weaknesses.

Whether these technical issues turn out to be something he can play with and still be successful (there is no batsman in the history of the game since I've been watching who doesn't have technical issues), something he'll have to go away and address, or something which ultimately defeats him remains to be seen. I wouldn't be overly concerned yet, but a couple more scores and the pressure is definitely on - that will be a good test of character (and I believe the guy has plenty of it).

Also, for those arguing that he should be dropped (if that's what you're arguing) who would you pick ahead of him? Bairstow has looked consistently less good than Root since the pair started playing; Ballance has about 4 runs in 3 innings for England so far; Stokes at 7 is surely not an option with the way Prior is batting. Is Bairstow going to become the latest example of someone who improves in the eyes of the fans with every game he doesn't play (most notable recent example being Onions)?

Trott, IMO, is far more of a concern. I agree with Mysti that it seems like he has let the criticism of his SR get to him; I commented a couple of times in the previous tests that he had played uncharacteristically impatient knocks, and gotten out as a result. However the main concern for me is he doesn't seem to have worked out how to play the short ball yet, and I'm not sure this is something he can figure out during the series - for something major like this he probably needs time away to work on his muscle memory.

[KP_fan]

Dare I say, the stage is set for Kevin Pietersen on his 100th Test...

 
 
when the match state borders on realms of impossible.......put it on KP "stage set for him".....
and then blame it on him "for not delivering when it matters"  

we did that to SRT forever

[mystiroakey]

I disagree with your opinion. I 100% disagree with your 1 in 10 maths!

I however have no problem with people disagreeing and thinking root wont make it.

But I have been in the same boat before mate with other players that we put in the team to develop, for example Broad back in the BBC days.

Root has proved on many times that he can accelerate or shut it down(mix it up and a full range of shots). He hasnt proved constancy.

I made a point that England have allways had at least one place for a growth player, and that we allways need to stick by that strategy.

Not only is root that project player but he is actually performing at a level that is better than many other batsman and also is a decent part time bolwer option

[TRUSSMAN66]

My opinion is my opinion.........Wasn't looking to offend or start an argument...

1 in 10 was probably an exaggeration..........But my guess is had he shined he'd be opening now..

Have a good weekend.......and you no doubt have more cricket experience than me...

cheers..

[mystiroakey]

if he had shined yes he would still be opening. He didnt- we saw what he can do granted- but we also saw a lot of inexperinece

many thought he was pushed up the order to soon, and they were probably right to think so.. (COMPTON especially)


But the fact that we have gone with another ageing opener and have retained root shows us that Root is still the desired first choice opener in time.

[Guest]

Recent history tells us that England will fight back, longer history tells us that the Aussies will start hammering England again  

Of course recent history tells us that England are also capable of being white-washed on tour:  Pakistan v England Test Series (in United Arab Emirates) 2011/12  Pakistan 3-0 (3).

One of the worries for me in this test is that the Aussies seem to have found a method of getting Carberry out (& he may have to be replaced).

[Guest]

ps the fact that none of the English batsmen were clean bowled (they were all caught) suggests they at least are doing something right

[mystiroakey]

Nore- all the aussies were caught as well though.

[Guest]

 

Looking at the Aussies first innings it was the Haddin - Johnson partnership that saved them.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Trott lost the ability to play test cricket about 6 months ago.

The press and social media constant attack of his low SR got to him. He mentioned it in interviews a lot and he was talking about trying to play more shots etc

His SR has increased but his Ave is diminishing.

Oh dear #headsgone

[mystiroakey]

It doesnt mean he wont get it back olly!

But yes i stand by that assesment

[Guest]

Trott lost the ability to play test cricket about 6 months ago.

The press and social media constant attack of his low SR got to him. He mentioned it in interviews a lot and he was talking about trying to play more shots etc

His SR has increased but his Ave is diminishing.

Oh dear #headsgone

That reminds me of some football managers comments when they get relegated.  The manager / team develop a style of play that is not pretty to watch but it gets them results and they tend to stay out of relegation trouble.  

The crowds & media start complaining they want to see a better, more entertaining style of play, and want the team to move on to the next level.  The manager (pushed on by the chairman no doubt), makes adjustments, brings in some players that can play pretty football (maybe).  

They then get flattened by the opposition and find themselves in the relegation zone throughout the season.

[Guest]

The analysis of the Carberry dismissal suggests that Johnson is just using a body line tactic - trying to break ribs and the head of the batsmen - with batters fencing at the balls for protection and getting out:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/25048225

Maybe the English bowlers can do the same? Then it will be a battle of the last man standing.

[Guest]

Nore- Johnson is quicker than any of the england bowlers..IMO our bowlers arent quick enough to properly execute bodyline.

[msp83]

English bowlers don't have the pace to create a Johnson like impact. Tremlett, if he could manage to produce some good pace, could be he best bet to do that job, his tall frame can generate extra bounce that can trouble the best of the batsmen. But is he really fit enough to perform such a role? He did come through OK in the first innings though that Tremlett spark of old wasn't really there, perhaps with overs under his belt, he could return to somewhere close to his best.
It shouldn't be forgotten that Steven Finn is the quickest of the lot in that England pace bowling unit.........

[Duty281]

English bowlers don't have the pace to create a Johnson like impact. Tremlett, if he could manage to produce some good pace, could be he best bet to do that job, his tall frame can generate extra bounce that can trouble the best of the batsmen. But is he really fit enough to perform such a role? He did come through OK in the first innings though that Tremlett spark of old wasn't really there, perhaps with overs under his belt, he could return to somewhere close to his best.
It shouldn't be forgotten that Steven Finn is the quickest of the lot in that England pace bowling unit.........

And the most inaccurate...

[KP_fan]

English bowlers don't have the pace to create a Johnson like impact. Tremlett, if he could manage to produce some good pace, could be he best bet to do that job, his tall frame can generate extra bounce that can trouble the best of the batsmen. But is he really fit enough to perform such a role? He did come through OK in the first innings though that Tremlett spark of old wasn't really there, perhaps with overs under his belt, he could return to somewhere close to his best.
It shouldn't be forgotten that Steven Finn is the quickest of the lot in that England pace bowling unit.........

very true msp,
Eng leave out their fastest; and best hit the deck hard bowler.
they continue to shoot themselves in the foot by picking medium pacers and trundlers.

and when pitches are not dry, brown, scruffed India type, their bowling is exposed by aussie no.7 and 8

[Gerry SA]

Steven Finn might be inaccurate, but he's a wicket taker.

Mitchell Johnson is wayward, but still gets backed by his skipper and management.

[Guest]

I was up at 4:30 am for work, and havent been to sleep yet, however i will be ploughing through and staying awake tonight to watch play!!!!! #mad

[KP_fan]

I was up at 4:30 am for work, and havent been to sleep yet, however i will be ploughing through and staying awake tonight to watch play!!!!! #mad

you are a true aussie fan  

[Guest]

Steven Finn might be inaccurate, but he's a wicket taker.  

Mitchell Johnson is wayward, but still gets backed by his skipper and management.  

Steven Thomas Finn, Born 4 April 1989 (age 24), English Bowler
Mitchell Guy Johnson, Born 2 Nov. 1981 (age 32), Australian Bowler

I thought Johnson was younger until I did the comparison.  I am a great believer in the "horses for courses" approach to team selection - but it seems to me this is not the approach recommended by others and actual approach taken by most teams in international cricket.

I am not really an advocate of bodyline tactics but if the Australians are going to use it I would want the English to be able to reply in kind (but maybe apart from Finn, they don't have the bowlers with test match experience to bring in for this purpose).

ps According to Geoff Boycott the British batsmen should have coped far better against the fast short ball aimed at them - mentioning that in his day he had to deal with the famed West Indies fast bowlers (& others) - who were deadlier and more accurate.

[guildfordbat]

English bowlers don't have the pace to create a Johnson like impact. Tremlett, if he could manage to produce some good pace, could be he best bet to do that job, his tall frame can generate extra bounce that can trouble the best of the batsmen. But is he really fit enough to perform such a role? He did come through OK in the first innings though that Tremlett spark of old wasn't really there, perhaps with overs under his belt, he could return to somewhere close to his best.
It shouldn't be forgotten that Steven Finn is the quickest of the lot in that England pace bowling unit.........

As pointed out by a poster on the Surrey supporters' website, George Dobell apparently suggested Tremlett looked like he was bowling with a shuttlecock.

[Gerry SA]

Steven Finn might be inaccurate, but he's a wicket taker.  

Mitchell Johnson is wayward, but still gets backed by his skipper and management.  

Steven Thomas Finn, Born 4 April 1989 (age 24), English Bowler
Mitchell Guy Johnson, Born 2 Nov. 1981 (age 32), Australian Bowler

I thought Johnson was younger until I did the comparison.  I am a great believer in the "horses for courses" approach to team selection - but it seems to me this is not the approach recommended by others and actual approach taken by most teams in international cricket.

I am not really an advocate of bodyline tactics but if the Australians are going to use it I would want the English to be able to reply in kind (but maybe apart from Finn, they don't have the bowlers with test match experience to bring in for this purpose).

ps According to Geoff Boycott the British batsmen should have coped far better against the fast short ball aimed at them - mentioning that in his day he had to deal with the famed West Indies fast bowlers (& others) - who were deadlier and more accurate.

But is Johnson really bowling 'body line'?

It was just hostile, accurate short pitched bowling.

Johnson's aided by his slingy action that make it hard to duck his deliveries.

[NickisBHAFC]

Woke up at 5 earlier to catch some cricket before work, could hardly believe my eyes. Huge dissapointment from England, but i must admit i did see it coming, our batting was poor in the summer and it was our superb bowling that digged us out of trouble throughout the series, we need more of that superb bowling to somehow save this test match.

Ill be up for an hour, got an early start tomorrow going to Wigan!

[mystiroakey]

Come on England..

Stop feiking about

[mystiroakey]

If it keeps going Oz's way- i wonder if they will make a decent timed Declaration for once.

[mystiroakey]

Sweet!

Gave his wicket away!

9 to go

[NickisBHAFC]

BOOM!!!!!

Broad at it again!!!!

[Pal Joey]

morning oakey.

Rogers out. He's looked very unsettled and struggled to score in this match.

[mystiroakey]

Morning/Night LB

Even though he didn't score- he did the most important job as an opener.(took a lot of balls)

I do have a feeling if an England batsman did that they would get targeted and called boring but hey ho

[Pal Joey]

yeah, he did his job occupying the crease yesterday arvo. Still, something doesn't seem right with him. I like him as a player but his confidence seems to have gone AWOL. Credit to the bowlers though for making his task difficult.

[mystiroakey]

after watching a team skittled for 136- all you want to do is bat the day out.

Crazy shot first thing though.

But I will take it

[Pal Joey]

have you got our ch9 commentators or your own ones?

[mystiroakey]

We have our own,

Nassir is on at the moment

[mystiroakey]

and bumble

[Pal Joey]

OK, bumble does a shift on ch9 too but no Nasser for us.  

(it's the first time in over 30 years without Greig, Benaud & Lawry for us)

[guildfordbat]

Morning / Night folks,

Yeah, surprised by Rogers' dismissal. Without ever being flashy, he's been a dependable and massive accumulator of runs in English county cricket. In theory, he should be ideally suited to 5 day cricket.

[guildfordbat]

OK, bumble does a shift on ch9 too but no Nasser for us.  

(it's the first time in over 30 years without Greig, Benaud & Lawry for us)

Linebreaker - any latest news on Benaud following his car accident? Met him once - even though it was only brief, will always be a personal highlight (for me I mean!).

[NickisBHAFC]

WATSON GONE!!!!

What on earth was he thinking!

Broad well taken, kept under pressure. Tremlett well bowled!!

[Pal Joey]

I'm living right now near where he grew up. About 10 mins away... same as the Waugh twins and Paul Keating, ex-PM and Jack Lang... the formidable Premier of NSW in the 30s.


From what I know - he stayed in hospital a little longer. Recovery going well but he will be back for the Melbourne Test along with BL.

Watson has another brain explosion. Patience is not one of his virtues. All he had to do was keep his lid on for a few more overs and not fall for the temptation of trying to bash his way out.

[guildfordbat]

Another dreadful shot. Watson falls to Tremlett's third ball of the day. Botham had contemptuously referred to his opening ball as 'a 77 miles per hour long hop'.

[liverbnz]

Watson was always going to give after blocking so many.

[guildfordbat]

Linebreaker - thanks for the Benaud update. All sensible cricket fans here wish him well.

Yes, a 'brain explanation' sums up Watson's shot.

Tremlett now out of the attack after that one over and Broad back on.

[alfie]

Hmm. Actually able to watch some of this live at last ...and I have managed to take two cheap wickets  

Unfortunately have to nip off again shortly to play my own match so I guess I will come back this evening to see them at 325/4...

Not giving the series away yet : we will find out in time if this is to be a re-run of 1958/9 and 1974/5 ...or 1954/5...

[Pal Joey]

Good evening, Guildford.

I wonder if skyeman has recovered from his gin and cookies?

The scoreboard seems to be ticking along now.
250 run lead up and a 50 for Davey "I only tapped him, Your Honour" Warner.

Rain.  

They'll get the covers on quickly. Don't think it will last too long.

[guildfordbat]

Linebreaker - my gin has to be with tonic or bitter lemon, not cookies! But if it works for Skye, good luck to him!

Warner has already played a good and valuable role. Sure he'll be looking to push on.

Assuming we don't take 10 wickets, any thoughts of a declaration late today? You could be north of a 500 lead by then. That also assumes no more rain today.

[Pal Joey]

Yeah, I'm thinking around about a 300 run lead at lunch.

If they can push on from there they can easily be around 380-420 runs ahead by tea. The weather will probably get the better of them in that last session. Maybe declare at around a 450 run lead?

[alfie]

If the forecast of rain tomorrow is accurate a declaration late today would be desirable from an Australian viewpoint. Unless Warner really does propel the run rate upwards the lead may be less than 500 , but surely anything over 400 would be sufficient ?

Too early in the day to be too prescriptive , perhaps. See what unfolds. England would love to nip one or both of these out before lunch...

[guildfordbat]

If the forecast of rain tomorrow is accurate a declaration late today would be desirable from an Australian viewpoint.  Unless Warner really does propel the run rate upwards the lead may be less than 500 , but surely anything over 400 would be sufficient ?

Too early in the day to be too prescriptive , perhaps.  See what unfolds.  England would love to nip one or both of these out before lunch...

Alfie - not 'too prescriptive' as I'm off to bed on the stroke of lunch and need to get the day's tactics and permutations sorted out now!!  

Linebreaker - thanks for your response. I don't know if this stat is at all misleading but SKY stated earlier that the highest successful 4th innings chase in the history of Test cricket at The Gabba is 236. I'm not for a moment suggesting that Australia should declare now on the strength of that but you do seem in an immensely strong position.

As I finish this post, Warne has just said he thinks Australia will be looking to have up to 200 overs to bowl at England. That would necessitate a declaration some time after tea today.

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