Scotland Post AIs

by reallybored Sun 24 Nov 2013, 1:30 pm

First topic message reminder :

So overall a pretty disappointing series for us, performances weren't great and we missed a great opportunity to beat Australia. But we were short a number of our best players in Rennie, Hogg, Scott & Visser, so some perspective is perhaps needed considering we were playing two of the top sides in the world.

Personnel wise there were some positive performances;

Dickinson & Low both performed, solid back-ups to Grant & Murray
MacArthur and Gilchrist both showed they are more than capable of playing Test level rugby
Jonny Gray looks a gem of a player and it was a shame we didn't see Swinson again
Denton carried willingly and got his hands on the ball but wasn't as effective as hoped
Beattie showed glimpses of his old self, needs a run with out injuries for Montpellier
Laidlaw was poor against SA but has a good game against Oz, and great to see Cusiter back in blue
Weir had a decent run against Oz, definitely has the cojones to play Test matches but needs to settle
Taylor had a tough one against SA but better against Oz, not a long-term 12 option but maybe 13
Seymour looked lively but struggled to find space, decent back-up though
Maitland is a classy player, looked comfortable at 15 but never really broke free in attack

Negatives;

Line-out seems to have imploded under pressure, not sure who's at fault but GET IT SORTED
Directionless in attack, no-ones seems to know what we're trying to do
Territory, pretty much played both games in our own half for 70 minutes and paid the price
Concentration, we switched off once or twice in defence and got punished ruthlessly
Didn't turnover much ball to play off, odd penalty but not many chances to hit on the break
No tries, rarely got into positions to score and when we did the ball was slow and ideas sparse
Didn't get a chance to see Welsh, Harley, Fusaro, Bennett

So Johnson has now had 6 Test matches to look at a lot of players, it's now time to get our perceived strongest XV out and start building some consistency. I firmly believe at full-strength we have a XV capable of competing with the best but it needs a chance to develop, not getting mixed about every week.

Get the core of our RWC 2015 in place so when Cotter comes in he doesn't have to start from scratch.

1 - Grant
2 - ? (MacArthur or Ford)
3 - Murray
4 - ? (Swinson, Gray or Gilchrist)
5 - ? (Hamilton or Gray)
6 - Brown
7 - Rennie
8 - ? (Beattie or Denton)
9 - Laidlaw
10 - ? (Weir, Jackson or Heathcote)
11 - Visser
12 - Scott
13 - ? (Dunbar, De Luca, Taylor, Grove or Bennett)
14 - Maitland
15 - Hogg

Hooker and lock needed to get sorted out pronto, hardly surprising our line-out has misfired with the constant turnover in those two positions.

Johnson needs to nail his colours to the mast and stick with a fly-half for more than 2 games at a time, personally I'd like to see Weir get the entire 6 Nations to settle and see how he goes.

Outside centre is the dilemma position; with Scott, Dunbar and Horne we're well stocked at 12, plus Scott looks like he could develop into a very handy player indeed. Outside is tougher, had we not had injuries to both Scott & Dunbar I'd have been confident Bennett would have played at somepoint. But would Scott & Dunbar have been considered 1st choice to begin with or is De Luca perceived to be ahead of Dunbar.

Need to start playing with some confidence, we've always had a decent pack but for the 1st time in over a decade we've got some genuinely exciting backs. But that doesn't mean we should throw it about aimlessly hoping someone will do something good and break a defence. Play sensible rugby in the right areas, put pressure on the opposition rather than ourselves and the chances will come, our pack is good enough to create opportunities and the backs are good enough to take them.

I'm confident we're heading in the right direction but Johnson can't waste this 6 Nations, Cotter will only have 14/15 Tests before RWC 2015, so he needs the foundations in now. Set-piece, defence & effective kicking game.

What's everyone elses assessment of where we are right now?

by Captain_Sensible Mon 25 Nov 2013, 5:00 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Unless we significantly improve it's gonna be a tough 6N, considering we've only got England and France at home.

And let's face it, we've not exactly done well away from home against Italy recently...

On the topic of the 6N, Tommasso Allan has now played more times for Italy than he has played professional rugby for his club.

He was pretty poor versus Argentina by all accounts. Rushed in too early, it seems, but hard to blame the Italians given the other options.

by tigertattie Mon 25 Nov 2013, 5:02 pm

I reckon we will beat

England
Ireland
Italy

by funnyExiledScot Mon 25 Nov 2013, 5:16 pm

That's some pretty bold predicting there Tigertattie!!

We have a chance with our home games, we always do, and I expect us to beat Italy on any pitch anywhere, but I think we are a long shot against Ireland in Dublin and Wales in Cardiff. Sure, both of those sides can be inconsistent, but no more or less than us, and man-for-man they have better players in almost every position.

by reallybored Mon 25 Nov 2013, 6:40 pm

At full strength with Rennie, Beattie, Laidlaw, Scott, Maitland & Hogg performing we're capable of beating any NH team on our day.

Rennie and Hogg especially, both are potential World Class when on form but they need to have the platform to do it.

Ireland first up at aviva will be tough after their performance against the all blacks. But if that game showed anything, if you're direct and put pressure on the opposition you can rattle anybody. It's not like anyone in their back-line didn't anything particularly special, they were direct and didn't screw up the little bits.

by Scratch Mon 25 Nov 2013, 6:50 pm

I see the 'on our day' tag has moved from Wales who obviously haven't had their day for a while and may in fact never have their day…... until this weekend when i hope it's their day at last!

Scotland have very high quality players but they seem to lack the ability to maintain intensity and to finish their opportunities. I want to see them target England in Edinburgh in february, if England lose in Paris the week before i can really see an opportunity to be taken

by reallybored Mon 25 Nov 2013, 7:18 pm

We've got to win our first game, the tournament is all about momentum and we haven't had any in a decade.

Tough assignment in Dublin, their backs aren't the force they were but they're powerful upfront. Stop them getting momentum and they're beatable, we did it last year and played awful.

by teh_Dingmeister Mon 25 Nov 2013, 8:15 pm

I don't know if anyone else had the impression that I got but watching Weir against South Africa it seemed like on the few occasions that he looked to attack the line he never had anyone else in the back line close by offering a line off him. This of course meant that he had to ship it on, usually to the backline that was standing a lot deeper than him. Subsequently, the defence didn't have to focus on him as much.

Really disappointed to not see Bennet get at least an appearance off the bench, what more do we need to know about de Luca? Enough has already been said about Lamont and his finishing... I do feel that with Scott, Hogg, Visser and hopefully Rennie back we should be a credible threat in the 6 nations.

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Mon 25 Nov 2013, 8:38 pm

Scotland may avoid the wooden spoon but only just. That is the best we can hope for.

by TJ Mon 25 Nov 2013, 9:14 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:Agree the article was poor, however you are well off the mark with Lamont, effort certainly 10/10, but the pish poor distribution he has received (including Matty Scotts who is not as world class as my fellow brethren are making out who this season for club or country, he has being "good" at best).

I am forever the optimist after the AIs normally and after the Summer tour I thought that maybe we would have a fairly balanced team, but this Autumn has seen me wanting a refund on the damn tickets I bought.

Too many players have been treading water, Scott hasn't raised the bar this season, Grant, Laidlaw, Denton have been poor, Jackson his usually inconsistent self, Weir is not good enough as is Lawson, Maitland seems to have lost a yard of pace. Why are we talking about Rennie when he has played 40 mins very well, and the rest of the time has been less than average for us then got injured again. Gilchrist did ok, Gray Jnr like his bro has exploded onto the scene but the jury is still out there.

We are writing off Schlong but he has been one of the rare breeds this AIs series "a player who is willing to give 100% of every minute he is on the pitch"

I honestly fear for our central midfield when they face Roberts & Davies in the 6Ns, ditto with any combo of half backs

Glass a bit half empty?

Lamont again butchered chances and lost the ball because of trying too hard. How you can say Duncan weir is not good enough he has hardly had a chance. 3 starts only. Scotts been injured.

by TJ Mon 25 Nov 2013, 9:17 pm

IO have been following Scottish rugby since the 70s. this is the just about the best group of players I have ever seen taken as a whole. Maybe 1990 was better - but its close. Most of these guys are young and have a lot to give yet. Sure we are short of options in some areas but in some areas we have riches many teams would wish for. 3 wins in the 6 N if we get most folk back from injury.

by GLove39 Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:02 pm

Speaking of a tough 6 Nations, we kick things off in Dublin Shocked

Which after the way Ireland took things to the All Blacks is mightily daunting!

Ireland (away)
England (home)
Italy (away)
France (home)
Wales (away)

Very tricky schedule.

by **RDW** Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:09 pm

Don't think there's ever an easy schedule.

I like not having Italy at the end - it means if we beat them then the pressure is off for the final 2 games.

If we lose though...

by flyhalffactory Mon 25 Nov 2013, 10:09 pm

TJ wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:Agree the article was poor, however you are well off the mark with Lamont, effort certainly 10/10, but the pish poor distribution he has received (including Matty Scotts who is not as world class as my fellow brethren are making out who this season for club or country, he has being "good" at best).

I am forever the optimist after the AIs normally and after the Summer tour I thought that maybe we would have a fairly balanced team, but this Autumn has seen me wanting a refund on the damn tickets I bought.

Too many players have been treading water, Scott hasn't raised the bar this season, Grant, Laidlaw, Denton have been poor, Jackson his usually inconsistent self, Weir is not good enough as is Lawson, Maitland seems to have lost a yard of pace. Why are we talking about Rennie when he has played 40 mins very well, and the rest of the time has been less than average for us then got injured again. Gilchrist did ok, Gray Jnr like his bro has exploded onto the scene but the jury is still out there.

We are writing off Schlong but he has been one of the rare breeds this AIs series "a player who is willing to give 100% of every minute he is on the pitch"

I honestly fear for our central midfield when they face Roberts & Davies in the 6Ns, ditto with any combo of half backs
Glass a bit half empty?

Lamont again butchered chances and lost the ball because of trying too hard. How you can say Duncan weir is not good enough he has hardly had a chance. 3 starts only. Scotts been injured.

Perhaps its half empty for a good reason.

Usually I am forever the optimist but we couldn't get any worse than the week before could we?.

Whilst we have got out mojo back in the pack and whilst I appreciate that SJ is no doubt looking at combos under instruction ready for Cotters arrival (20 forwards used this particular series), we have revealed very little imagination from 9-15 during November 2013. Offensively we have had numerous opportunities yet only the second half against a rapidly tiring Japanese side (who only seven days before had been on the wrong side of a 6-54 hammering by NZ in Japan) have we looked half decent and crossed the line with good movement, yet SA and Australia have gone past our backline with seriously worrying ease. Its no good having a naturally attack minded backline when they can't defend for toffee.

Scott hasn't been injured all season, I have watched his games this season and he hasn't hardly set the world alight even in our victory over Japan he was quite subdued particularly in the first half when he was outplayed by his opposite number.

I find it incredible to say but I feel more confident of some invention from the flyhalf channel when a certain Dan Parks was orchestrating the moves, the problem is Rhubarb is the only 10 who when at his best is the only halfback with enough qualities to unlock international defences.

I am flabbergasted we have concentrated on Heathcote whilst seeming letting Allan slip through our fingers.

Frustrated and disappointed is the Autumn assessment

by reallybored Tue 26 Nov 2013, 12:03 am

flyhalffactory wrote:
TJ wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:Agree the article was poor, however you are well off the mark with Lamont, effort certainly 10/10, but the pish poor distribution he has received (including Matty Scotts who is not as world class as my fellow brethren are making out who this season for club or country, he has being "good" at best).

I am forever the optimist after the AIs normally and after the Summer tour I thought that maybe we would have a fairly balanced team, but this Autumn has seen me wanting a refund on the damn tickets I bought.

Too many players have been treading water, Scott hasn't raised the bar this season, Grant, Laidlaw, Denton have been poor, Jackson his usually inconsistent self, Weir is not good enough as is Lawson, Maitland seems to have lost a yard of pace. Why are we talking about Rennie when he has played 40 mins very well, and the rest of the time has been less than average for us then got injured again. Gilchrist did ok, Gray Jnr like his bro has exploded onto the scene but the jury is still out there.

We are writing off Schlong but he has been one of the rare breeds this AIs series "a player who is willing to give 100% of every minute he is on the pitch"

I honestly fear for our central midfield when they face Roberts & Davies in the 6Ns, ditto with any combo of half backs
Glass a bit half empty?

Lamont again butchered chances and lost the ball because of trying too hard. How you can say Duncan weir is not good enough he has hardly had a chance. 3 starts only. Scotts been injured.
Perhaps its half empty for a good reason.

Usually I am forever the optimist but we couldn't get any worse than the week before could we?.

Whilst we have got out mojo back in the pack and whilst I appreciate that SJ is no doubt looking at combos under instruction ready for Cotters arrival (20 forwards used this particular series), we have revealed very little imagination from 9-15 during November 2013. Offensively we have had numerous opportunities yet only the second half against a rapidly tiring Japanese side (who only seven days before had been on the wrong side of a 6-54 hammering by NZ in Japan) have we looked half decent and crossed the line with good movement, yet SA and Australia have gone past our backline with seriously worrying ease. Its no good having a naturally attack minded backline when they can't defend for toffee.

Scott hasn't been injured all season, I have watched his games this season and he hasn't hardly set the world alight even in our victory over Japan he was quite subdued particularly in the first half when he was outplayed by his opposite number.

I find it incredible to say but I feel more confident of some invention from the flyhalf channel when a certain Dan Parks was orchestrating the moves, the problem is Rhubarb is the only 10 who when at his best is the only halfback with enough qualities to unlock international defences.

I am flabbergasted we have concentrated on Heathcote whilst seeming letting Allan slip through our fingers.

Frustrated and disappointed is the Autumn assessment

Bear in mind out backline were joint top-scores in last 6 Nations and out scored SA in the summer. Not overly concerned about tries to be honest as Scott, Maitland and Hogg are intelligent players with good skills and Visser is a top finisher given half a chance.

More concerned about getting in the right areas, we've got a horrible habit of playing deep in our half and making silly errors to keep the pressure on ourselves.

I thought Weir looked a little isolated too, no one giving him options on the line and as a result he ended up taking contact. Don't know if it's inexperience of Taylor standing too deep or a general lack of understanding about what we're trying to achieve.

I agree that Jackson is better attacking the line but Weir brings more control to proceedings, his attacking game isn't bad with good distribution and willingness to have a go plus a good array of chips or grubbers. He's got a great boot on him and when allowed to play his natural game, can keep the opposition on the back foot.

If the pack could get the finger out at the line-out, i'd just want to see us playing for position then look to disrupt the oppositions set-piece, look to counter loose kicks or force turnovers to attack on the break. Make the opposition do something special to get out their half, it's demoralising having to constantly clear your lines.

by flyhalffactory Tue 26 Nov 2013, 12:39 am

Captain_Sensible wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:It's a dreadful article. Full or errors and the ratings are quite ridiculous. Sean Lamont getting 8/10 is farcical. If the marks were for passion and effort he'd get 10/10, but I'd say a 6 would be more reflective of his contributions as an international winger, and I'm not just talking about the one incident against Australia where he demonstrated all the pace of a prop forward.

Also not sure why Pyrgos gets a 4 and Scott Lawson a 5 (given Pyrgos came off the bench against Japan and set up a try). Barclay at 5 looks low (when compared to the other scores) and I wasn't really impressed by Kieran Low at all (yet he gets the same score and Barclay and a higher score than Pyrgos).

Can't help but feel they didn't spend long doing this, as evidenced by the littering of silly errors.
Agree the article was poor, however you are well off the mark with Lamont, effort certainly 10/10, but the pish poor distribution he has received (including Matty Scotts who is not as world class as my fellow brethren are making out who this season for club or country, he has being "good" at best).

I am forever the optimist after the AIs normally and after the Summer tour I thought that maybe we would have a fairly balanced team, but this Autumn has seen me wanting a refund on the damn tickets I bought.

Too many players have been treading water, Scott hasn't raised the bar this season, Grant, Laidlaw, Denton have been poor, Jackson his usually inconsistent self, Weir is not good enough as is Lawson, Maitland seems to have lost a yard of pace. Why are we talking about Rennie when he has played 40 mins very well, and the rest of the time has been less than average for us then got injured again. Gilchrist did ok, Gray Jnr like his bro has exploded onto the scene but the jury is still out there.

We are writing off Schlong but he has been one of the rare breeds this AIs series "a player who is willing to give 100% of every minute he is on the pitch"

I honestly fear for our central midfield when they face Roberts & Davies in the 6Ns, ditto with any combo of half backs
Oh dear Lord, cheer up, man.

Why indeed are we talking about Rennie when he got an honourable mention in the IRB player of the year awards last year?

Matt Scott has been Embra's best player by a mile this season. I'm impressed he's managed to hold onto his form when he's surrounded by such garbage. He also did fine against the Welsh midfield at Murrayfield last year, and if you'd been paying attention, Davies and perhaps Roberts are injured for the 6N.

Duncan Weir is 22 - where you at the top of your profession at that age?

Gray Jnr is 19 - of course the jury is still out, what were you expecting? A fully-formed Martin Johnson replica to come bursting out of a teenager?

Yes, we didn't do brilliant this autumn but enough of the doom and gloom - especially when it is barely accurate in places.

Where have I been inaccurate?

I realise Roberts and Davies might be injured, but they are just an example, we could look at Tualagi and Twelvetrees and ask the same question..

If you had been paying attention my man you would have noticed that

Rennie - has been injured quite a bit, and even when he has been back he has only had one decent game (I should know as I have watched every game), I am his biggest fan and he is the NHs best flanker when on top of his game, but that hasn't been for a while due to his serious injuries, so yes when all things are peachy he is the first name you would pencil in but lets be sensible about it, he might come smack back into the form he was about 2-3 years ago but then again he might not.

Weir when he had the ligament problem when he was only 18 or 19 it was a disaster because he was so promising, and agree he is a grounded young guy who is always to improve on his game, but for me under pressure he doesn't have that innate quality to produce something out of nothing. His biggest strength to me is his kicking game which isn't going to bring Scott and Dunbar into play much. Hope I am proved wrong and we give him a decent run with all the 6Ns starts and assess him after that.

On the topic of Scotty, well I am a Embra season ticket holder and attempt to get to the away games as well, and if you want to tell me (even taking into account our rubbish season) when he has had a top drawer match against quality opposition "this season"...... not last season and yes he had a fine game against the Welsh but he certainly didn't boss the middle of the park. Yes he is class, and he is young but lets not go overboard about the guy.

We have a great forward platform in the offering, and with Hogg, Maitland, and Visser we have great attacking threat, I am just not confident about our 9/10/12 axis

by tigertattie Tue 26 Nov 2013, 9:38 am

Imagine it

Oz showed that if you take the game to Ireland and boss the breakdown, you can beat them. If you let Ireland boss the breakdown (like they did in the 1st half against NZ, then ouchies)

We then get England at home. We always raise our game for England at home.

Then it's Italy. A team not as good as they used to be. We should be beating Italy.

We could be looking at 3 wins out of 3. God knows what could happen

Ireland (away) - Winable
England (home) - Winable
Italy (away) - Winable
France (home) - momentum?
Wales (away) - GS decider?

Now, before folk get carried away saying that I am getting carried away. We could also see

Ireland (away) - Loss
England (home) - Loss
Italy (away) - heads are down, Wooden spoon decider
France (home) - Loss
Wales (away) - Loss

As a team we will need to do all the basics and play with intensity for the full 80 mins. it is possible for us to have a good 6ns but the boys will need to perform!

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 26 Nov 2013, 2:01 pm

From Kevin Ferrie in the Herald:

Character (noun): a set of qualities that is shared by many people in a group, team, country etc

The pre-match fireworks generated much smoke but it was the mirrors of potential illusion which sprang to mind at Murrayfield on Saturday.

Perhaps Scott Johnson, caretaker national coach and Scottish Rugby Union director of rugby, was justified in declaring his men's demonstration of character as the big positive to be gained.

Yet as the bluff Australian said, repeatedly, after Scotland had lost to his countrymen for the first time in three meetings, it raised the question of what we mean by character in sport.

It has, lately, been displayed by individuals and teams representing Scotland. When, for example, badminton player Kirsty Gilmour lost 13 successive points and the second set of her second-round tie at the Scottish International Grand Prix at The Emirates on Friday she faced a real test. An embarrassing defeat was avoided, however, as she duly worked her way through to yesterday's final.

Perhaps even more relevant was the way Scotland's rugby league team found themselves 8-0 down to the USA at half-time in their final pool match, after a series of bad breaks, yet came out after the interval to score 22 unanswered points. The spirit generated within that thrown-together squad by Steve McCormack, their head coach, and Danny Brough, their captain, was remarkable to witness close up.

Character is, of course, partly down to nature. But nurture plays a part - where parents, teachers and coaches need to set standards, then ensure they are maintained.

On Saturday Scotland was visited by a group of Australians whose off-field behaviour, in going out for a few drinks without any reported incident, has fallen far below the standards on which their new coach Ewen McKenzie is insisting.

His response has been to issue punishments considered draconian by some, but which ensured that no-one in the camp was in any doubt about what is going to be expected of them under this regime.

The on-field response has been impressive. Last week, just days after those indiscretions, they put in what is considered their best performance of the year to beat a high-class Ireland side.

Doubtless it was not, but it almost felt like a calculated insult that they suspended players not for that match but for their meeting with Scotland. Whether that was down to a calculation that they could still beat Scotland without several leading players, only they know, but they did.

The off-field behaviour of some Scottish internationalists has also come under scrutiny. The courts may yet decide they did no more than find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time, yet that alone raises questions, and the contrast with the Australian management's reaction is interesting. If any punishment has been issued it has not been made public, while the head coach continues to praise the collective character of his men.

That, in turn, brought to mind an interview with Kirsty Gilmour's coach, Yvette Yun Luo, who, drawing upon her upbringing in a ruthless sporting environment, explained: "In China we say if I praise you in front of you it means I lie to you because I want you to like me. If I praise you behind you that is true. It's not about trying to please you."

Since the alleged off-field incident involving Scotland players was exposed, they have been nilled by the Springboks and lost to the weakened Wallabies.

Amid those pre-match fireworks on Saturday, then, was something almost symbolic about the team being led out by Jim Hamilton - a player whose apparent aggression on and off the field has helped earn him selection in a career that has now reached 50 caps. He has been on the winning side just 14 times.

Hamilton has also repeatedly been selected ahead of Al Kellock, the Glasgow Warriors captain, who has won 25 times in just six more appearances.

Kellock's only autumn Test appearance having been against Japan, Scotland's World Cup captain started both the tryless wins in 2009 and 2012 over the Australians which were earned almost solely on strength of character. Hamilton played in neither.

No-one would argue that Kellock does not have shortcomings in his game, but he has done more than most to instil real character in Glasgow Warriors in recent years.

Admittedly theirs, too, is under examination right now with considerable effort required to ensure that the hard work of the seven years Kellock has been their captain is not undermined.

However, if Scotland's management truly mean what they say about character being valued as much as more statistically measurable factors, it may be time for all concerned to stop blowing smoke into players while taking a proper look at themselves.

Some of what he says rings true, altho we should all remember that he has previous with Jim Hamilton, and is as close to Al Kellock as any journo, so assume that we can take that part with a large spoonful of salt

by funnyExiledScot Tue 26 Nov 2013, 2:04 pm

The only game in the 6 Nations I genuinely can't see us winning is Wales in Cardiff. It's possible, most things are, but looking realistically at the two teams and factoring in home advantage (and that Wales traditionally finish strongly) then I just can't see it.

That is quite different of course from suggesting that we'll win the other games. The only game I expect to win is the Italy contest, we'll be underdogs for all the others.

The one game where we really didn't do ourselves justice last year was the England game. We didn't turn up and we were blown off the park. I'd like us to remedy that next year, and really work hard at the breakdown and contact area. Getting Swinson, Brown and Rennie all on the park at the same time ought to be a big help in that regard.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 26 Nov 2013, 2:10 pm

The points made about Hamilton vs Kellock are embarrasingly stupid.

by **RDW** Tue 26 Nov 2013, 2:13 pm

You have got to wonder about Hamilton though - I can't remember the last time he didn't give away at least one stupid penalty that lead to 3 points. Does the rest of his game make up for 3-6 points a game? I'm not so sure. The one at the start of the game was incredibly stupid - the entire stadium could see he had no right to go for the ball - why did he??

I think we are majorly hampered by the fact that the only people who can call Scotland's lineouts are Hamilton and Kellock, which suggests one of them has to start.

It's probably too late now to get someone else up to speed and battle hardened, but it does pose a problem in that Hamilton or Kellock will have to start, which means Gray snr or Swinson won't - and that's not ideal.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 26 Nov 2013, 2:22 pm

Not sure I agree that it's too late. If the Scotland management have any sense they'll start work on both Jonny Gray and Richie Gray re: the lineout. Look at how quickly Courtney Lawes has managed to develop that aspect of his game.

Glasgow should play Swinson and Gray together a couple of times this season and give Gray a shot at calling the lineout with MacArthur. Let's be honest, both Swinson and Gray are better than Kellock at everything else (other than this intangible mythical leadership quality that can't be measured credibly).

by **RDW** Tue 26 Nov 2013, 2:24 pm

Richie Gray is 6ft 9 - how has he not been heavily involved in lineouts up until now??

If Gray or Swinson can learn to call a lineout I think those two are our ideal paring - Swinson has all the physicality of Hamilton without the penalties, and Gray is just a supreme athlete.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 26 Nov 2013, 2:29 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Richie Gray is 6ft 9 - how has he not been heavily involved in lineouts up until now??

If Gray or Swinson can learn to call a lineout I think those two are our ideal paring - Swinson has all the physicality of Hamilton without the penalties, and Gray is just a supreme athlete.

It's because he's been paired with Hamilton or Kellock, and they've assumed the role. It's the same at Edinburgh, because Cox calls the lineout Gilchrist doesn't have to. Personally I'd like to see that transitioned this season, to allow VDW to partner Gilchrist from time to time without the lineout going to pot.

Completely agree that Tim Swinson and Richie Gray are the ideal pairing in terms of allround skillset - with either Gilchrist or Jonny Gray on the bench. That's where I'd be aiming come the World Cup, and it has the benefit of being a settled group for the next World Cup as well!

by Tattie Scones RRN Tue 26 Nov 2013, 2:31 pm

Agreed.

It's simple. If they don't (can't) call the lineouts then train them. It's a verbal call, not a natural ability. You build on strengths, not work around weaknesses.

by **RDW** Tue 26 Nov 2013, 2:31 pm

I suspect in reality he will build the pack around Hamilton.

Unless Cotter comes in and has completely different ideas...

by Tattie Scones RRN Tue 26 Nov 2013, 2:33 pm

Was anybody else disappointed that Bennett didn't get any game time whereas NDL and Max Evans did?

by **RDW** Tue 26 Nov 2013, 2:35 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Was anybody else disappointed that Bennett didn't get any game time whereas NDL and Max Evans did?

On this forum that is like asking the question 'Does anyone like cake?' cake

by Tattie Scones RRN Tue 26 Nov 2013, 2:41 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Was anybody else disappointed that Bennett didn't get any game time whereas NDL and Max Evans did?
On this forum that is like asking the question 'Does anyone like cake?'

by flyhalffactory Tue 26 Nov 2013, 2:41 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Not sure I agree that it's too late. If the Scotland management have any sense they'll start work on both Jonny Gray and Richie Gray re: the lineout. Look at how quickly Courtney Lawes has managed to develop that aspect of his game.

Glasgow should play Swinson and Gray together a couple of times this season and give Gray a shot at calling the lineout with MacArthur. Let's be honest, both Swinson and Gray are better than Kellock at everything else (other than this intangible mythical leadership quality that can't be measured credibly).

Spot on
We have to have a mindset of winning every set-piece on our throw, and at least nicking a few of the opponents during the match. Transferring the key elements on the training ground to the match day is critical for putting pressure on opponents. Lineout, scrum, ruck, maul and quick redistribution is the foundations to win our games come the 6Ns.

We have players who individually are as good as any in the NH, but we have to crank it up a gear or two. MacArthur must be looked at, Swinson, Gray Snr, the Beattie, Barclay and Brown trio are our back row if Rennie is still out. Good good players who can become a fantastic unit of unyielding pressure.

by **RDW** Tue 26 Nov 2013, 2:44 pm

Relevant stat of the weekend - Scotland only had 60% of lineouts that led to clean, playable ball.

Australia had 100% .

We used to be good at disrupting other teams lineouts!

p.s. in the avoidance of doubt - I like cake.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 26 Nov 2013, 2:50 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Relevant stat of the weekend - Scotland only had 60% of lineouts that led to clean, playable ball.

Australia had 100% .

We used to be good at disrupting other teams lineouts!

To be fair in Doddie Weir, Scott Murray and Nathan Hines we had three very good lineout operators indeed. Jason White was also pretty handy. In fact White is a good example of using your back row effectively in the lineout. Beattie used to be a great tail-end jumper for Glasgow back in the day. We just don't seem to be particularly imaginative anymore. It just seems to be front or middle, with a little shuffling ahead of the throw.

by **RDW** Tue 26 Nov 2013, 2:52 pm

Other point of interest is that the new forwards coach Humphries has torn up Scotland's lineout and started with a completely new system - think it's fair to say it hasn't had the best of starts!

by tigertattie Tue 26 Nov 2013, 2:54 pm

I'm sorry, what is this nonsense about Hamilton and The Ruck Inspector being the only one capable of calling lineouts?

Every single person in the lineout (and the scrum half) need to know the calls. once you know them (which all the Scotland forwards will do) it simplly becomes a case of knowing what call to give in which area of the pitch and then shout the bloomin code.

Back in my playing days it was out 2nd row captain that used to call the lineouts.

One day he didn't turn up. I called the lineouts. Never did it before, managed fine. I know 3rd division rugby is totlaly different to international, but the concept is the same.

Our lineouts were rather simple. In our 22 the ball would go to the first jumper (either going forward, straight up or back) Between our 22 and thier 10 would be either front jumper or 2nd jumper. From their 10 to their tryline it was any jumper.

Of course you've got off the top, take it down and maul, wee fancy position changes and all that jazz, but if you can speak, you can call a lineout.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 26 Nov 2013, 3:35 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Other point of interest is that the new forwards coach Humphries has torn up Scotland's lineout and started with a completely new system - think it's fair to say it hasn't had the best of starts!

Agreed - the stats are not a ringing endorsement of the new system. What's annoying is how simple other team make it look, and it still bothers me that we don't challenge more on the opposition lineout. I wish other teams afforded us the same courtesy!

by tigertattie Tue 26 Nov 2013, 4:07 pm

I've already asked but never saw an answer

What does Scott Murray do with himself these days? Could he be a lineout consultant for the SRU?

by funnyExiledScot Tue 26 Nov 2013, 4:25 pm

Is he not still playing in France?

Murray was a great player. Not just his lineout skills (which were awesome), but his anti-Kellockian approach to the ruck. He used to absolutely fling himself into rucks with zero regard for personal safety.

I will always remember his performance against Wales at Murrayfield in 1999. He wasn't the biggest player, but he punched well above his weight.

by alive555 Tue 26 Nov 2013, 4:42 pm

murray is forwards coach at Mont de Marsan French League div 2

by funnyExiledScot Tue 26 Nov 2013, 5:17 pm

Good knowledge. Now can you please inform me of their lineout stats this season??

by reallybored Tue 26 Nov 2013, 6:07 pm

tigertattie wrote:One day he didn't turn up. I called the lineouts. Never did it before, managed fine. I know 3rd division rugby is totlaly different to international, but the concept is the same.

Our lineouts were rather simple. In our 22 the ball would go to the first jumper (either going forward, straight up or back) Between our 22 and thier 10 would be either front jumper or 2nd jumper. From their 10 to their tryline it was any jumper.

Of course you've got off the top, take it down and maul, wee fancy position changes and all that jazz, but if you can speak, you can call a lineout.

Dude.

Seriously, you called a line-out once in the 3rd division and it went alright, so what's the big deal about calling the line-out at Test level? They'll have north of 30 variations at least and the team they're up against isn't some bunch of old duffers but 8 highly tuned athletes who have practiced all week to try and steal it.

It's a concern that R Gray is playing for Castre, unlikely he'll be calling the line-out in French but it's a string he could really do with adding to his bow considering competition at lock. He seems a pretty switched on guy and has good rugby intelligence when playing, no reason he shouldn't be able to do it.

Otherwise, I'd be pretty happy with Swinson and his younger brother. Have a sneaking suspicion that they'd provide the most shunt in the scrum too, whenever they've been together for Glasgow the scrum has been very powerful. Perhaps slightly shorter locks can provide more push (Brad Thorn) as it's easy to get lower and possibly got a stronger core. And obviously they'd give us the most in the loose.

Always wondered why a hooker didn't call their own throws, surely he can best gauge how his throw is feeling and where is most secure to hit. Possibly more difficult to judge where the opposition are going to put up a jumper to challenge though.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 26 Nov 2013, 6:38 pm

reallybored wrote:Always wondered why a hooker didn't call their own throws, surely he can best gauge how his throw is feeling and where is most secure to hit. Possibly more difficult to judge where the opposition are going to put up a jumper to challenge though.

Are you mad?? Can you only imagine the chaos that would ensure were we to allow Ross Ford to both call and throw??

by flyhalffactory Tue 26 Nov 2013, 7:03 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
reallybored wrote:Always wondered why a hooker didn't call their own throws, surely he can best gauge how his throw is feeling and where is most secure to hit. Possibly more difficult to judge where the opposition are going to put up a jumper to challenge though.
Are you mad?? Can you only imagine the chaos that would ensure were we to allow Ross Ford to both call and throw??

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Tue 26 Nov 2013, 8:09 pm

If we cannot beat an understrength Australia at home then how the hell does anyone expect us to beat England and France and Ireland away - no feckin chance !

by justified sinner Tue 26 Nov 2013, 8:48 pm

The lineout thing is interesting. Is there any coincidence between Scotland going from a good lineout to a really poor one and Humphreys being appointed as forwards coach?

by **RDW** Tue 26 Nov 2013, 9:07 pm

He was forwards coach of a pretty dominant ospreys pack, so I'd hope not

by TJ Tue 26 Nov 2013, 9:25 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
Captain_Sensible wrote:
Our forwards are still a work in progress, a
Grant, Dikcinson, Ford, Murray, Lowe, Cross, Hamilton, Gray Snr, Strokosh, Brown, Barclay, Beattie and Rennie are likely to form the core of our pack up until the world cup, and they are all experienced campaigners! If they aren't going to become top class now when will they?

Yes there is good young talent coming through but the above names aren't gonna change much any time soon.

the pack matched up pretty well in the Aus game - got the backs plenty of ball.

by GloriousEmpire Tue 26 Nov 2013, 9:26 pm

I thought the Duncan weir fellow was a find. Reminded me of Tony Brown in a kind of way.

by **RDW** Tue 26 Nov 2013, 9:52 pm

TJ wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
Captain_Sensible wrote:
Our forwards are still a work in progress, a
Grant, Dikcinson, Ford, Murray, Lowe, Cross, Hamilton, Gray Snr, Strokosh, Brown, Barclay, Beattie and Rennie are likely to form the core of our pack up until the world cup, and they are all experienced campaigners! If they aren't going to become top class now when will they?

Yes there is good young talent coming through but the above names aren't gonna change much any time soon.
the pack matched up pretty well in the Aus game - got the backs plenty of ball.

Yeah, slow crap ball having been dominated at the breakdown and in the lineout!

by TJ Tue 26 Nov 2013, 10:13 pm

Once again we have scots fans veering from outright optimism to doom and gloom. For me the forwards are not the worry - its the backs. However Weir got the start he needed and played OK, the pack got us plenty of ball. With a finisher or two we might just have won - but we didn't have them and didn't win.

Front row is still a concern but we have the locks and the back row to compete with anyone, Scrum halves we have - ten is an issue as is strength in depth in the backs

by flyhalffactory Tue 26 Nov 2013, 11:02 pm

TJ wrote:Once again we have scots fans veering from outright optimism to doom and gloom. For me the forwards are not the worry - its the backs. However Weir got the start he needed and played OK, the pack got us plenty of ball. With a finisher or two we might just have won - but we didn't have them and didn't win.

Front row is still a concern but we have the locks and the back row to compete with anyone, Scrum halves we have - ten is an issue as is strength in depth in the backs

Its not doom and gloom, its just adding a touch of realistic assessment of the AIs, going forward to the 6Ns

Japan. They had the stuffing knocked out them by NZ and let in 8 tries and 54 points the week before, flown 5,800 miles into a chilly Scotland, and trained for a few days. We are 11-3 up after 40 mins!...... I am a tad realistic not pessimistic about that first half performance, we didn't really improve that much in the second half, it was more to do with Japan becoming knackered, and us scoring two tries when they were down to 14 men. 6 Tries only 50% converted, 2 tries let in and 100% converted, but overall optimistic going into the second game.

SA. No Points, No Tries. We had plenty of opportunities but we couldn't convert a doubtful atheist, let alone the numerous opportunities that came our way

Aus. 5 pens, No Tries and probably I would be drawing my pension before could conjure one out of that.

Happy with the forwards, a lot of work to do with the backs

Happy with the offensive line of the following (but prefer the 10/12 axis of Rhubarb/Scotty especially the crossover and scissor play between the two agains't Japan)

15 Hogg
14 Maitland
11 Visser

13 Dunbar
12 Scott

10 Weir
9 Laidlaw

by tigertattie Wed 27 Nov 2013, 10:19 am

I don't think the forwards have been anywhere near as good as they were in the past few years.

Our lineout has gone to pot, Reallybored thinks its because at test level there are too many variations. I think it's because a communication block has occured.

At the breakdown, at least half the time we've turned into ruck inspector apprentices. If you've lost the ball then fair play, but at least try to slow the opposition ball down. Playing an out and out 7 may help here!

The forwards need to have more intensity/aggression

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