Should The Regions Tell The WRU To Shove The PA & Join The Jeff?

First topic message reminder :

Welsh clubs look for Premiership future claims Wray wrote:Saracens boss Nigel Wray claims the Welsh regions want to join the English Premiership to secure their long-term future.


The four regions - Cardiff Blues, Newport Dragons, Ospreys and Scarlets - have been at loggerheads with the WRU for some time and Wray has told the Rugby Paper that they are looking east for their best hope.

"They'd love to play in the Aviva Premiership and we'd love it too," Wray said. "English and Welsh rugby has an enormous history, a rich culture of big club matches. What could be better than the restoration of the traditional fixtures, guaranteeing massive matches of real importance?

"We play each other anyway in the LV=Cup so why not make the fixtures really meaningful? An enlarged Aviva Premiership can be created with no extra fixtures to be squeezed into the calendar. It would be good for the WRU because it would provide their teams with tougher competition.

"There are fantastic old rivalries there and games would sell-out. Games like Leicester v Cardiff and Scarlets v Northampton would have real bite and meaning, which would appeal to the customers who often get forgotten in all of this.

"Bring in the Welsh, go to 16 teams and play 30 games plus the play-offs. You'd have to agree on promotion and relegation but that's not too difficult, so let's move forward and give our customers meaningful games."

The four regions have been given until the end of December to agree a new deal with the WRU. If they do not then they face an uncertain future, all the more so with this week's Heineken Cup news.

Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/story/207777.html#uSiW3b7Qz9z2MrTW.99

There have been various posts on numerous supporters forums claiming that it may be in the regions, and welsh supporters, best interests to tell the WRU to take their Participation agreement and place it in a very specific orifice. Now that Wray has come out and said that he believes the regions would be welcomed into the Aviva, some fans are wondering if not only would it help the regions to keep hold of their stars, but it would also help to boost the regional attendances, because we would get more away supporters coming in etc etc.

Seeing as this has hi-jacked other threads I thought I would set up this thread to try and keep it all in one place.

Well, it's significant in that it suggests strongly that the regions aren't making things up.

Meanwhile, Roger Lewis has said this:

"We sincerely hope that our professional regional organisations are able to retain their best players in Wales."

Someone is lying here, and I doubt it's Regional Rugby Wales.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Well, it's significant in that it suggests strongly that the regions aren't making things up.

Meanwhile, Roger Lewis has said this:

"We sincerely hope that our professional regional organisations are able to retain their best players in Wales."

Someone is lying here, and I doubt it's Regional Rugby Wales.

I see. You meant he was effectively confirming the WRU was encouraging him not to sign for the Blues yet? That is significant.

Whatever is happening it's a complete cluster  and hopefully something good will come from this.

I think the following should be read.

The Newport football case which I have seen some mention predates Arts 81 and 82 EC sports which contains justification for such restraints where the beneficial effects outweigh the restraint.

http://ec.europa.eu/sport/white-pape...s_en.htm#2_1_6

Essentially it states that restaint in sport is justified for the greater good.
It takes precedence over the Newport soccer case
The WRU wouild win the any case on that basis .

Also the legalise seems to imply that the Regions are bound by the WRU contractural arrangement with the Pro12 and as such are obligated to give notice.

I think its moments like these you can start to see how incompetent the management at our regions is.

Bottom line even if they win the case and manage to self govern, have they really spent enough research into the likely outcomes of joining the Aviva. Firstly Aviva will always have relegation, so with our current form how can they not rule themselves out from getting relegated. All Division 1 clubs in England are semi professional and only receive a very small sum of money from the RFU. The Welsh Regions would never get out of Division 1 again without significant backing from a benefactor.

There is also this urban myth their attendances will go through the roof by playing English sides. Again, clearly they haven't spoken to ex-fans. Ive spoken to countless Ospreys & Blues supporters over my time who became disheartened by the way their teams had been playing. Bottom line players support either winning teams or flashy teams. To be perfectly brutal here our regions have failed to deliver on both counts (with a slight exception to the Scarlets who do actually play entertaining stuff at times).

No funding from the WRU, a likely ban to any future welsh hopefuls, would surely ruin any chances of signing talent in wales as well.

Bottom line is that the regions offer far to higher salaries to mediocre players. With the 16 million the WRU pay them they could easily pay 90 players an average of 178K per year (which obviously would be scaled depending on your experience and importance) so I can see the WRU are coming from when they don't have the players signed up that they actually use.

For me I see to many uncompetitive squads and I just don't see Wales being able to support 4 regions if they want to become competitive in the Pro 12 and the HC.

"If at first you don't secede, try try again"

Shove the PA. The 2nd civil war is on and i'm a rowdy rebel.

http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/208207.html

If RRW get locked into a legal battle will they be able to enter AP before any legal action is concluded? That's assuming AP vote in favour of them entering.

It strikes me that the WRU has a nuclear option; if the Welsh regions move into the Premiership, make all regional players ineligible for Wales.

The remaining quality players the Welsh regions have would be gone overnight.

Lets hope to god it doesn't come to that. It would literally tear Welsh rugby apart.

Welshmushroom wrote:I think its moments like these you can start to see how incompetent the management at our regions is.  

All 4 of them? Even your region?

Notch wrote:It strikes me that the WRU has a nuclear option; if the Welsh regions move into the Premiership, make all regional players ineligible for Wales.

The remaining quality players the Welsh regions have would be gone overnight.

Notch, that would explain why the WRU are encouraging the international players to leave the regions - at the same time saying things like this:

"We sincerely hope that our professional regional organisations are able to retain their best players in Wales." (Roger Lewis)

Contemptible duplicity. Reprehensible behaviour from the supposed guardians of the game in Wales.

A poster on Dragged Up sums it up nicely:

'You can hardly blame the regions for their stance. No increase in money in, what, 9 years is it, and getting less and less access to international players that they are expected to pay wages for with the WRU posting record profits on the back of the success of those international players.'


http://draggedup.co.uk/chat/viewtopic.php?t=5223&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:A poster on Dragged Up sums it up nicely:

'You can hardly blame the regions for their stance. No increase in money in, what, 9 years is it, and getting less and less access to international players that they are expected to pay wages for with the WRU posting record profits on the back of the success of those international players.'


http://draggedup.co.uk/chat/viewtopic.php?t=5223&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Partly right as there are other issues too. Fingers crossed and touch wood, all will be sorted on Wednesday.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:A poster on Dragged Up sums it up nicely:

'You can hardly blame the regions for their stance. No increase in money in, what, 9 years is it, and getting less and less access to international players that they are expected to pay wages for with the WRU posting record profits on the back of the success of those international players.'


http://draggedup.co.uk/chat/viewtopic.php?t=5223&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Partly right as there are other issues too. Fingers crossed and touch wood, all will be sorted on Wednesday.

It won't be sorted, not fully. Meanwhile English clubs have said they want the Welsh in the aviva.

If the regions split I can't see how they'll survive. Furthermore, what will their purpose be? I think it's a case of a colossal family feud being played out behind the scenes and Joe Public getting a glimpse now and again as Mum and Dad argue in front of the neighbours again.

My genuine belief is that the WRU hierachy never got the deal it wanted in terms of the regions and is biding it's time now so it can put it's own WRU controlled, centrally contracted teams in place of the regions. I also think it's likely to be 2+1 ... East, West + North (development side). That way they'll keep their 60-70 top players plus blood the U20's at Parc Eirias where they're based any way. Looking at the £16m the WRU pay out at regional level we could imagine a £7m/£7m/£2m split? That would certainly give 2 financially competitive sides!

One thing is for certain - if things carry on as they are the current regions are dead in the water .... and I don't see the WRU doing a dang thing to help.

The Welsh would be missed from the Rabo but it would also probably mean Irish teams would have 9 local rivalry games each instead of 6 which by all accounts can only be a good thing.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:If the regions split I can't see how they'll survive. Furthermore, what will their purpose be? I think it's a case of a colossal family feud being played out behind the scenes and Joe Public getting a glimpse now and again as Mum and Dad argue in front of the neighbours again.

My genuine belief is that the WRU hierachy never got the deal it wanted in terms of the regions and is biding it's time now so it can put it's own WRU controlled, centrally contracted teams in place of the regions. I also think it's likely to be 2+1 ... East, West + North (development side). That way they'll keep their 60-70 top players plus blood the U20's at Parc Eirias where they're based any way. Looking at the £16m the WRU pay out at regional level we could imagine a £7m/£7m/£2m split? That would certainly give 2 financially competitive sides!

One thing is for certain - if things carry on as they are the current regions are dead in the water .... and I don't see the WRU doing a dang thing to help.

I am not sure what you mean when you ask what their purpose will be. It is the same as any rugby team - to play rugby. What is the purpose of say Leicester - it is to play Rugby. Rugby teams, whether professional or amateur, do not exist just to produce international players.

Welsh Magician wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:A poster on Dragged Up sums it up nicely:

'You can hardly blame the regions for their stance. No increase in money in, what, 9 years is it, and getting less and less access to international players that they are expected to pay wages for with the WRU posting record profits on the back of the success of those international players.'


http://draggedup.co.uk/chat/viewtopic.php?t=5223&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Partly right as there are other issues too. Fingers crossed and touch wood, all will be sorted on Wednesday.

It won't be sorted, not fully. Meanwhile English clubs have said they want the Welsh in the aviva.

No it's just that looney Nigel Wray talking...

How naive are Welsh thinking that a 16 teams aviva would be better for them than rabo + Hec + LV cup?

How niave are the Welsh that they think they will be fully integrated into the Aviva.

The English are jsut using them as a negotiating tool.
As soon as they have served their purpose they will be discarded

geoff998rugby wrote:How niave are the Welsh that they think they will be fully integrated into the Aviva.

The English are jsut using them as a negotiating tool.
As soon as they have served their purpose they will be discarded

It is not the welsh who are disillusioned I don't think anyone in Wales actually thinks Nigel Wray is to be taken seriously.

Eddie Butler wrote:This... has been a long time coming. It is all about control – as in who controls the professional game in Wales. The WRU seems prepared to withhold the funds that might allow the regions to remain competitive.

That is, it is prepared to underfund the four businesses it created – the Blues, Dragons, Ospreys and Scarlets – and see them off, either into exile or oblivion, in order to start again. And to have absolute control over what emerges.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/dec/07/heineken-cup-welsh-civil-war

Exiledinborders wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:If the regions split I can't see how they'll survive. Furthermore, what will their purpose be? I think it's a case of a colossal family feud being played out behind the scenes and Joe Public getting a glimpse now and again as Mum and Dad argue in front of the neighbours again.

My genuine belief is that the WRU hierachy never got the deal it wanted in terms of the regions and is biding it's time now so it can put it's own WRU controlled, centrally contracted teams in place of the regions. I also think it's likely to be 2+1 ... East, West + North (development side). That way they'll keep their 60-70 top players plus blood the U20's at Parc Eirias where they're based any way. Looking at the £16m the WRU pay out at regional level we could imagine a £7m/£7m/£2m split? That would certainly give 2 financially competitive sides!

One thing is for certain - if things carry on as they are the current regions are dead in the water .... and I don't see the WRU doing a dang thing to help.

I am not sure what you mean when you ask what their purpose will be. It is the same as any rugby team - to play rugby. What is the purpose of say Leicester - it is to play Rugby. Rugby teams, whether professional or amateur, do not exist just to produce international players.

Really? The regions were formed to concentrate Welsh talent, represent Wales in the HEC, prepare Welsh players for international rugby and provide a professional route into top rugby via the academies for the U20's. NWQ quota's consequently have long been the subject of much debate. Commentators in wales have remarked on the success of the regional system albeit in terms of 6N victories. If the Scarlets etc go to play in an Anglo-Welsh league the WRU will pull their funding. They will put together new regional franchises based on central contracts. They will demand that welsh squad players play for those sides. Who will then play for the "old" regions? Furthermore, who will support them after such a split? They aren't exactly pulling the crowds in now. Sounds like Hare Kare to me.

roger lewis is playing an extremely dangerous game. the regions have been backed into such a corner, and they have proud rugby roots (pre the regional mergers but there nonetheless), that they may well decide to risk the financial oblivion root rather than quietly slit their own wrists in the bath with roger handing them the razor.

quinsforever wrote:roger lewis is playing an extremely dangerous game. the regions have been backed into such a corner, and they have proud rugby roots (pre the regional mergers but there nonetheless), that they may well decide to risk the financial oblivion root rather than quietly slit their own wrists in the bath with roger handing them the razor.

I think if the money on offer for an Anglo-Welsh is not significantly above £4m each then the regions are done for. That's what they're getting now and they're doing a pretty good impression of the Titanic's last hurrah.

If we do get a rebel situation (like back in the 90's) I can see the WRU using the current regional cash pot (and more perhaps) to put the knife in and finish them off. All they have to do is form new teams, declare a new "Warren's Law" offer lucrative new central contracts and watch as the players jump ship sharpish.

There is the argument about the demand for Anglo-Welsh games. True, there is demand ... but how much? Enough to bring the regions playing budgets up to around £7m a year? I have my doubts. I think the WRU is about to torpedo the regions and will worry about playing arrangements afterwards.

At any rate its a blydi mess and us fans are wondering who exactly we'll be watching next season.

Llanelli vs Neath anyone? Neef, Neef, Neef ...... ah, I used to enjoy beating that lot   

lots and lots of hurdles and bridges to cross before it happens. undoubtedly. and financially there are lots of unknowns at this point.

i feel for the clubs. i hate the idea of omnipotent union power-grabbers, especially ones who dont even have a rugby background.

but mostly i feel for welsh fans of rugby as they must be hating this.

I think what we hate most is going to matches where everyone's moaning about the state of the game and watching the kids get stuffed by yet another decent Irish/French/English team despite a battling performance. It's depressing at the moment.

Honestly I could accept the demise of the Scarlets as a region if we could have a sustainable structure for welsh pro rugby. I'd be more than happy to watch the club game, even as a feeder to a pro regional setup, providing it was done well and for the right reasons. Painful, but for the sake of a sustainable game in Wales, worth it. Given the characters involved in this shambles I wouldn't put my house on a sensible outcome just yet. I mean Roger Lewis & Stuart Gallacher ... don't those two names just fill you with confidence   

With regards to regions jumping ship to the Aviva...can the Dragons actually be part of that? They're 50% owned by the WRU, how would that work?

Feasibly, you could only see the blues and ospreys making the jump and not feeling a massive hit in the wallet from losing WRU funding (i say the blues because while the Pieman has tightened the purse strings, he's still stinking rich).

There's not going to be any jumping ship. Let's assume that the PRL really are on board with it. The problems are:

1) If the WRU don't approve it then the PRL could only go ahead by stepping outside RU and the RFU. Why would they do that? They've never indicated that they would consider doing that. I certainly can't see them doing it to add the Regions.

2) Even if the WRU approve the RFU have got to approve.  The RFU are against ringfencing the top level. The RFU are against expanding the Premiership. The RFU is needed to sign off on both things (they've previously blocked PRL plans to expand the league).

There is only one possibility for this to 'work' IMO.

That would be for a 24 team, two tier, professional structure for England and Wales with licenses being awarded for participation. 4 would be Welsh, 20 would be English. There would be promotion and relegation between the tiers. Every X years the licenses are reviewed and potentially an English participant could be changed for another. This would have full WRU and RFU approval.

That's the only thing I could possibly see being set up. And that would take a lot of time and organisation and would have to wait until at least 2016 (WRU involvement with the PRO12 is signed up till then and the current PA for England that defines the competition structure also runs out then).

Thanks Hammer I think that is a good summary of where we are.

A lot of people making assumptions without realizing what is involved.

As a little extra spanner in the works the PRL will not want to go to 16 teams when 2015-16 is a World Cup year and there fixtures are further compressed.
As you say 2016 is a more realistic date

if this does go ahead - And I think its both a stupid idea and not going to happen - but how would it sit with the european cup? How could an expanded AP then find the time to play a european cup?

TJ wrote:if this does go ahead - And I think its both a stupid idea and not going to happen - but how would it sit with the european cup?  How could an expanded AP then find the time to play a european cup?

Thats exactly why it wont go ahead.

For all the bluster the PRL can see the big picture and a European competition is worth far more to them than an Anglo-Welsh league,
Until a European completition is dead and buried it wont happen, and we are a long way from that.

I have to say I can't see it happening. To me its an attempt by the welsh clubs to find a bargaining counter against their unions and mischeif making by the PRL / wishful thinking

Well an expanded league would simply result in the removal of the AW cup. It would mean that league games would have to be played during the internationals more but that could work.

But as I've already said what would happen (if anything) would be a 12 team top tier Wenglo league, with a 12 team second tier Wenglo league.

It's already been mooted that the RFU would prefer a 10/10 professional structure. Adding 4 Welsh teams to make it 12/12 wouldn't be a bad thing (in fact it would mean the clubs would be more likely to accept it overall as the number of games would be the same). But the WRU would have to accpet that all 4 of their teams 'may' be relegated to the 2nd tier (unlikely but the possibility would have to be there).

As a long term plan it could work for the benefit of English and Welsh rugby as a whole [from the RFU/WRU point of view]. But only as a long term plan, not a short term reactionary thing. It will be interesting to see what the new PA with the WRU will say about the Pro12.

But I don't honestly think it will happen (because of the number of cooks, Premiership clubs, Championship clubs, Regions, RFU and WRU). If they start discussing it now they might reach and an agreement in the next 20 years.

Dont do it Wales. The four Irish provinces are better than the AP teams combined. Add that to the decent challenge from Edinburgh and Glasgow and a tough Treviso there is no rugby reason to leave the best league in the NH.

Indeed - the rabo is a far better competition with better rugby. Money ain't everything

No, money isn't everything; but surely the regions could be forgiven for expecting their national union to help them, rather than sabotage them?

I've just had a look back at a previous BBC article from October and here's what Roger Lewis was saying then:

"Our squad is about to embark on a demanding autumn series of international games and it is vitally important all of their minds are completely focused on the task in hand."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24647172

If it's true that in fact there were whispers in the players' ears that they should not renew their contracts with the regions, then the WRU's actions were the complete opposite of their words.

Why should the regions commit themselves to working with the WRU when they act like this?

"Money ain't everything" is usually said by those with money.

The WRU set up these new entities to help the national game. They largely didn't have the traditional following and it was known it would take time for them to become 'stable'. The WRU give them now about £16.5M, £9M TV/Sponsorship, £6M player release/NWQ limits/etc, the rest for academies.

The Scottish teams had a recent boost in playing staff revenue to match the minimum English cap (£4.2M). They have lower attendances than the Welsh teams and they get less for the Pro12 TV deals. This suggests the SRU pump more of their own money in the Scottish teams than the WRU does for the Regions.

The IRFU report for 2013 says that they gave the Provinces about £18.5M (it was in Euros). On top of this they have the central contracts. The WRU suggested it would offer central contracts but it would stop the £6M payments. so if we assume that the £6M covers the central contracts that means the IRFU is giving the Provinces twice as much as the WRU are giving the Regions.

Now you can say these both have more control over their teams than the WRU has over the Regions but that's not really true. The contents of the PA can easily simulate the same requirements as the IRFU set to the semi-independent Provincial branchs.

Also, this is the funding that the IRFU give now, when the Provinces are all in a significantly better place than they were (Munster is arguable but they haven't dropped much). Has the IRFU funding dropped for these sides to compensate now that they are generating more of their own income? Or have the values stayed relatively the same?

Basically in the earily days the various benefactors/sugar daddies invested heavily in the regions to try and make them competative (in an environment where significant portions of the population weren't happy and didn't want them). They've seen the Welsh national team go one to success, and the WRU boasting of record profits, and the Provinces go on to be domestic success with heavy union financial backing, and they decided to pull the plug on their investment. Resulting in an implosion.

Internet FACT

I think a dose of reality is needed here, according to a highly placed source within RRW has been mentioning £5M from PRL for each region, plus whatever Team Wales would have to pay RRW a lot closer to what the RFU pay PRL for release of players, the 4th AI they would have to pay a LOT more for and the same would apply to the 13 day before AI and the 6 Nations, do you honestly think the number of travelling fans from the Rabo teams would compare to the equivelant from the Aviva, from what I understand 63% of all AL games are played on a Saturday Afternoon and very few are actually broadcast LIVE, that would STOP the people I meet who say, WHY WOULD I GO TO THE LIBERTY WHEN I CAN WATCH IT ON THE BOX. The vast majority on the Ospreys Forum WANT this to happen, the only way they don't see this happening is if the DODGER goes and a decent NEW PA agreement is set up with much better financial compensation for RRW negotiated.

Well...
If I was I'd a Welsh virgin, I'd consider myself to be extremely well-advised not to get into bed with the PRL sheisters.[ed] Scheisters. I meant Scheisters. If you want to go down Soccer Alley, it's just off PRLLNR Avenue. To the right.

Why would the welsh union have to pay for player release?

the reality is that you can't just copy the model someone else has and expect it to work. the irish provincial structure has been around for ages. real fanbases. this is absolutely critical to being able to compete in a professional club tournament. IMO you need 3 things:

- big home crowds (money and helping get the victory, noisy home crowds intimidate players and refs - internet FACT)
- good, fair, sensible commercial and logistical relationship with the Union
- pride, which usually comes from history, tradition, nationality and success

if the WRU let the regions implode, they are going to have to replace them with something, and whatever they put in place will fail the first and third criteria i think are important. recipe for even greater failure than the current setup for me.

TJ wrote:Why would the welsh union have to pay for player release?  

Because it's outside the IRB window.

Looking back the welsh and the scots might well have done better to stay with clubs who had the following and let a small number of super rich clubs form - giving rise to a situation like in Scottish football where ( until recently) only 2 teams ever won anything or entered Europe. Unfortunatly that is not where we are now at all - we have to build from where we are

TJ wrote:Why would the welsh union have to pay for player release?  

do you think the WRU could stop paying the welsh regions for player release and insurance and still get access to them?

HammerofThunor wrote:

TJ wrote:Why would the welsh union have to pay for player release?  

Because it's outside the IRB window.

The suggestion was that they would have to pay for all player release.

They would, they would pay for the 3 weeks and then more for the 4th because it's outside of the IR window. The regions would go to the Aviva without a playing agreement or whatever it's called with the WRU so the WRU would have to shell out for welsh player release.

TJ wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

TJ wrote:Why would the welsh union have to pay for player release?  

Because it's outside the IRB window.

The suggestion was that they would have to pay for all player release.  

If you are saying I suggested that you need to read my piece properly.

gcBlues wrote:They would, they would pay for the 3 weeks and then more for the 4th because it's outside of the IR window. The regions would go to the Aviva without a playing agreement or whatever it's called with the WRU so the WRU would have to shell out for welsh player release.

I don't think they have to pay for the time that is in the IRB agreed window.

gcBlues wrote:They would, they would pay for the 3 weeks and then more for the 4th because it's outside of the IR window. The regions would go to the Aviva without a playing agreement or whatever it's called with the WRU so the WRU would have to shell out for welsh player release.

As sin e says, you can't charge for the release of players inside the window. The only way they could is if they went outside of the IRB, which would also require the English clubs going outside the IRB, which is a whole cluster    that simply won't happen. Not for the Regions sake.

But they can charge for the weekend before the AI and 6 Nations, the two off weekends during the 6 nations, and any additional training periods.

They can try to charge.  No need for Wales union to pay. Are the welsh clubs really going to try to destroy wales 6N competitivness?

TJ wrote:They can try to charge.  No need for Wales union to pay.  Are the welsh clubs really going to try to destroy wales 6N competitivness?

Well what are the WRU trying to do to the Regions?