New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

by Sin é Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:42 pm

First topic message reminder :

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:
Sin é wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
Sin é wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:I don't think any one is argueing that the HEC is not a great comp, some are saying that it is not be all & end all & there is more to rugby.
PRL/BT have not stated the amount for Aviva & Europe separately as this would give information to Sky. However PRL have stated that PRL clubs will be better off with just the Aviva under the BT deal than they are now with the present combined Aviva/Europe.
The BT deal is for Aviva with an agreement that BT will have PRL's rights in any European comp.
It sounds like they have. The quote from Sin e suggests the BT part is worth about 20-odd million per year. Assuming he's talking in Euros and that 20-odd is about 20 (certainly reads that way). Over three years so thats 60 million. So that's about £50MM. Assuming that's top amount and therefore releases the whole "up to" £152M it means there is between £102M for the Premiership over four years. So thats £25M per year. Previous Sky/ESPN deal was for around £54M for 3 years, or about £18M per year. So that's an extra £7M a year for the Premeirship.

About
Thats working out ok so for the AP clubs. They now have a little over £2m for tv rights this year. Last year they got £1.9m (between AP & ERC).

Down guarantee of 3 home sell-out games (plus corporate entertainment ect).
They weren't sell outs. Even Tigers didn't sell out all the ERC games. But they can replace it with an English cup. Won't make as much but will probably make enough. Would be great if the Championship sides got involved and got an equal share (per team).
I wouldn't expect Tigers to sell out as they have a fairly big stadium, but clubs like Exeter were selling out (average 10k for HCup). Average about 7K for Aviva Premiership last year.
No HC sell-outs at Sandy Park last year (not even for Leinster), and the AP average was a little higher.

Last season:

Sale Sharks 5,568
Saracens 6,141
Quins 8,472
Warriors 7,295
Wasps 7,557
L Irish 7,557
Bath 10,744
L Welsh 7,317

etc. etc..

Heineken Cup
Clermont 9,819
Scarlets 9,258
Leinster 10,198

At least 2k more per game (and tickets are also more expensive).

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:24 pm

Where does that leave the poor aul Welshies?

by HammerofThunor Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:30 pm

It's on BBC now.(edit: website)

Regions will be in ERC or they carry out seppuku.

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:34 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
Sin é wrote:I know I keep banging on about it. The reason is that it is a major issue.

England cannot have global rights to their games because it takes two teams to play a game. How do they have global rights to Northampton v Leinster when that game could be sold to Sky NZ, Fox Sports, Canal+, etc. etc. Have Northampton a greater right than Leinster just because they are English?
Yes they can. The IRB regulation specifically state that the rights are entirely owned by the hosting union. The RFU give control over domestic rights to the PRL. It's been stated, IRB regs quoted and reference several times by myself and other but you keep ignoring it.

And who is actually going to flog the game in the first place.

You still haven't given a reason as to why the PRL won't sign up for collective selling like FIFA do for Champions League? Why do England have to be treated differently even though the money is all going into the one pot and divided up equally (We have McCafferty who threatened oblivion to the Celts & Italians word to do that)!
Here's one reason. Because they've already sold their rights for 3 years. After that they can do what they (or the RFU) wants. England don't have to be treated differently. The Welsh could sell their games if they want or join and sell them collectively. As for it going in the pot, you know what's been said. If you don't believe it there's no discussion there so fine.

The Union has control over its own broadcasting rights within its own territory provided no other country's teams are involved, but when it comes to cross border competitions, they can't do that without the consent of the other Union involved. For Union run tournaments (like World Cup, Six Nations, Rugby Championship, Super Rugby & Heineken Cup).

So the PRL got themselves into a bind by selling their broadcasting rights for a cross border competition and we all have to suck it up.

by HammerofThunor Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:43 pm

Sin é wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
Sin é wrote:I know I keep banging on about it. The reason is that it is a major issue.

England cannot have global rights to their games because it takes two teams to play a game. How do they have global rights to Northampton v Leinster when that game could be sold to Sky NZ, Fox Sports, Canal+, etc. etc. Have Northampton a greater right than Leinster just because they are English?
Yes they can. The IRB regulation specifically state that the rights are entirely owned by the hosting union. The RFU give control over domestic rights to the PRL. It's been stated, IRB regs quoted and reference several times by myself and other but you keep ignoring it.

And who is actually going to flog the game in the first place.

You still haven't given a reason as to why the PRL won't sign up for collective selling like FIFA do for Champions League? Why do England have to be treated differently even though the money is all going into the one pot and divided up equally (We have McCafferty who threatened oblivion to the Celts & Italians word to do that)!
Here's one reason. Because they've already sold their rights for 3 years. After that they can do what they (or the RFU) wants. England don't have to be treated differently. The Welsh could sell their games if they want or join and sell them collectively. As for it going in the pot, you know what's been said. If you don't believe it there's no discussion there so fine.
The Union has control over its own broadcasting rights within its own territory provided no other country's teams are involved, but when it comes to cross border competitions, they can't do that without the consent of the other Union involved. For Union run tournaments (like World Cup, Six Nations, Rugby Championship, Super Rugby & Heineken Cup).

So the PRL got themselves into a bind by selling their broadcasting rights for a cross border competition and we all have to suck it up.

Wrong. Read the IRB regs. It's very clear.

by broadlandboy Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:48 pm

Sin é could you please show evidense of your statement
"The Union has control over its own broadcasting rights within its own territory provided no other country's teams are involved, but when it comes to cross border competitions, they can't do that without the consent of the other Union involved. "
As to most the IRB regs seem to state that it is the host union who has the rights regardless who is playing. So 2 non english teams playing in England would come under the RFU unless there is an agreement between those teams & the RFU.

by HammerofThunor Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:54 pm

IRB wrote:REGULA TION 13.

13.1 For the purpose of this Regulation; Broadcasting Rights means the transmission and/or recording and/or otherwise stor ing of coverage of or other reproduction of a Match or Matches in any med ium and any use or exploitation of the same by any means in any electr onic media now known or at any time in the future developed, including, but not limited to, all forms of television (which will include, without li mitation, all forms of analogue, digital, free, pay, pay-per view and on-d e mand systems) and all other audio-visual media (which will include, witho ut limitation, video, DVD, CD-Rom and/or other audio-visual recorded view ing medium) and all forms of interactive and/or on-line transmissio ns via the Internet or any other syste m, radio and all other audio only media (which will include all forms of recording and/or interactive and/or on-lin e audio transmissions via the Internet or any other system) whether live or deferred and whether in whole or in part throughout the world or any par t thereof.

13.2 No Rugby Body, Club or Person or any combination thereof may negotiate or enter into or benefit from any contrac t for the grant of any Broadcasting Rights in respect of any Match or Matches except with the express written consent of the Union within whose t erritorial jurisdiction such Match is or Matches are to be played, such con sent to be in the absolute discretion of the Union.

13.3 No Rugby Body, Club (or Person with knowledge of such breach) may take part in any Match to which Broadcasting Rights have been granted in breach of the provisions of Regulation 13.2.

by Intotouch Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:01 pm

What happens if (a) the PRL can't deliver a cross-border competition to BT or (b) they rejoin the h-cup?

Either way they'd be breaking their BT contract. What would then happen? What is the least bad option now for the PRL?

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:03 pm

The rule says that you need the written permission of the Union in which the transmission is coming from.

We know that the PRL did not have the written permission of the RFU for the RCC.

And we also know that the RFU were present at the meeting that agreed that the ERC should sell the rights to the Heineken Cup to Sky.

As a matter of interest, do you think England will want to be able to sell the rights of their world cup games since they are mostly in England ... and do Wales get to sell the rights of the ones that are in the Mellenium?

by HammerofThunor Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:04 pm

Intotouch wrote:What happens if (a) the PRL can't deliver a cross-border competition to BT or (b) they rejoin the h-cup?

Either way they'd be breaking their BT contract. What would then happen? What is the least bad option now for the PRL?

The BT contract was released as for any future European competition. Not sure how not having one is a breach of contract. It sounds like it was rather none specific and the leaked rumours are likely to be related to the European side of it (rather than the league side as suggested). So X for 6 countries, Y for 4, etc.

by HammerofThunor Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:12 pm

Sin é wrote:The rule says that you need the written permission of the Union in which the transmission is coming from.

We know that the PRL did not have the written permission of the RFU for the RCC.

And we also know that the RFU were present at the meeting that agreed that the ERC should sell the rights to the Heineken Cup to Sky.

As a matter of interest, do you think England will want to be able to sell the rights of their world cup games since they are mostly in England ... and do Wales get to sell the rights of the ones that are in the Mellenium?

IRB will control the TV for the World Cup I would imagine. Otherwise the WRU would need to sign off the deal, yes. They may have have to sign it over as part of the hosting agreement. Who knows?

The regulation specifically says it's the union who's territory the match is played in who controls the rights. Nothing about transmission (not sure why you used that term).

The press release for the EPS deal (from the RFU) said that "As part of the Agreement, PRL shall be solely responsible for negotiating the sale of their own TV, media & Sponsorship rights and giving directions to ERC in respect of England's position on the sale of the TV, media and sponsorship rights related to the European Rugby Cup and European Challenge Cup."

Since the PRL aren't involved in the European Rugby Cup or European Challenge Cup, and no other specifications are made, I can understand why the PRL believe(d) they had control of the rights to any other competition they play in. And everything done for the sky deal was for the ERC and ECC, which the PRL aren't involved in and have no bearing the PRL teams.

by broadlandboy Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:15 pm

We do not know that PRL didnt have the rights as it seems there may be dispute over the ESP agreement & how it is worded(PRL have taken legal advice & seem confident that they have them).
I would have thought that in applyling to host a WC part of the agreement would be that IRB gets the rights.
It was legal for RFU to sell the home games for 6 Nations to Sky but the other Unions didn't like it so forced them to change with the threat of not playing.

by broadlandboy Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:17 pm

On the Beeb PRL say No to ERC 2014/2015

by Artful_Dodger Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:21 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25228509

by quinsforever Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:33 pm

now things will start to get interesting.

camou is losing the support of the IRB after railroading everyone into ERC (which is what excluded the english clubs)

FFR and LNR need to finalise their new "Convention" by tomorrow evening, would love to be a fly on that wall after this vote by PRL club owners

SKY are going to be gutted.

I am thrilled for England's chances in RWC 2015. proper rest and extra training for the squad members. fantastic. and the RFU is clearly going to help them out financially by paying extra for extra squad training time.

And the PRL's bluff has been called, unsuccessfully. Camou is going to have some pretty tough questions to answer now.

by Artful_Dodger Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:35 pm

Lol quins you are a funny guy Laugh

by quinsforever Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:40 pm

that's the way i see it. and it may be funny to you.

but you probably see the english clubs being out of europe as another opportunity to win an HC. and thats funny to me. Run

by HammerofThunor Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:41 pm

This was hardly a surprise right? I was confused why all the headlines were about English coming back because they said really suggested it.

It'll interesting to see the LNR response but I'm expecting them to be on board

by Artful_Dodger Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:42 pm

quinsforever wrote:that's the way i see it. and it may be funny to you.

but you probably see the english clubs being out of europe as another opportunity to win an HC. and thats funny to me.

You can do a bit better than that, maybe you'd like to make another sweeping racial generalization about Irish posters being delusional perhaps?

by HammerofThunor Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:42 pm

Quins, there will be an extra competition to generate funds so I doubt there will be more rest time. Probably just English involvement.

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:45 pm

quinsforever wrote:

I am thrilled for England's chances in RWC 2015. proper rest and extra training for the squad members. fantastic. and the RFU is clearly going to help them out financially by paying extra for extra squad training time.

And the PRL's bluff has been called, unsuccessfully. Camou is going to have some pretty tough questions to answer now.

Ben Cohen ‏@RugbyBenCohen 51m
Thats crazy!! @WillGreenwood what a total shocker re English clubs not playing in Europe 12 months ahead of World Cup. Huge Blow. Shocker!

by Artful_Dodger Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:47 pm

You would really have to be rather delusional to try and construe this as a victory for English rugby. But hey ho, thats what somebody in this thread is doing. I'm not suggesting this is a victory for anybody, it isn't, I think everyone in Europe has lost something here. But the above post by quins was comedy gold dust.

by quinsforever Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:47 pm

i highly doubt there will be an extra competition. no mention of it in the press release. they already have the LV cup. and why organise an extra competition in RWC year? no, pretty sure it wont happen. RFU would rather pay money to get access to players than approve a nonsense 1 year tournament with no tradition or history.

by quinsforever Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:49 pm

Sin é wrote:
quinsforever wrote:

I am thrilled for England's chances in RWC 2015. proper rest and extra training for the squad members. fantastic. and the RFU is clearly going to help them out financially by paying extra for extra squad training time.

And the PRL's bluff has been called, unsuccessfully. Camou is going to have some pretty tough questions to answer now.
Ben Cohen ‏@RugbyBenCohen 51m
Thats crazy!! @WillGreenwood what a total shocker re English clubs not playing in Europe 12 months ahead of World Cup. Huge Blow. Shocker!

remind me, who does will greenwood do his punditry for? oh yes, SKY.

by quinsforever Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:52 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:You would really have to be rather delusional to try and construe this as a victory for English rugby. But hey ho, thats what somebody in this thread is doing. I'm not suggesting this is a victory for anybody, it isn't, I think everyone in Europe has lost something here. But the above post by quins was comedy gold dust.

i think it's a victory for english rugby and english clubs in the medium and long term, because it means they are far more likely to get what they want. all the winds are blowing in that direction now. go up a few pages and read IRB chariman Lapasset's recent comments on replacing ERC and giving clubs commercial control.

i can't get too upset about a single season's HC being missed if it galvanises PRL and RFU to work together in a RWC year, and helps bring about much needed reform to the structure of international club rugby.

nothing delusional there. because i'm not obsessing over 1 year's worth of competition, just makes me less short term than many.

by HammerofThunor Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:55 pm

Each teams loses 3 home games. Average attendance so far is something like 10000. Assuming that continues that's 360000 tickets lost. So at £10 a ticket (because I'm being lazy) would be about £3.5M. The clubs are already only about even on the TV point of view so they're now out of pocket (not including all the sponsorship etc). And that's being conservative.

I am almost certain a new competition will be running for at least next year.

PRL wrote:The Chairmen and Shareholders of Premiership Rugby met today to consider amongst other matters the situation and options related to European club rugby issues.

The English Clubs have unanimously re-confirmed their position. Having served notice in June 2012, they will not participate in any competitions run by ERC from 2014-15 season.
ERC does not structurally recognise the role of the leagues and clubs in driving the success of club competitions, under the overall governance of Unions. The ERC voting structure is controlled by Unions even though the majority of commercial value is created by the independent clubs which represent 75 per cent of the participants.

Proposals put forward to address a new structure within a Rugby Champions Cup were agreed by a majority of the Unions in October, alongside meritocratic competition formats and equitable financial distributions. However, these have not been accepted by all.

The English Clubs have worked exhaustively over the last 18 months to propose solutions to the issues with the current European competitions and to provide a sustainable platform to grow the game in the various countries.

The English clubs are now pursuing other options.

by Artful_Dodger Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:57 pm

Really.... and you don't think that this could really end in disaster 10 months before the start of your own WC? You say there will be no replacement tournament for English clubs such as an English cup, so effectively you think you are in a good position with your players going into said world cup on the back of Aviva Premiership matches?

by HammerofThunor Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:58 pm

I'm glad they've reaffirmed their stance. If they were serious that they weren't willing to compete in the current competitions then they had to. If they were just bluffing for more money I would have been disappointed.

Now a year off May make them realise how much they love current structure and want back in (if invited). That would be fine.

by Artful_Dodger Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:58 pm

Above posted directed at quinsforever, not Hammer.

by HammerofThunor Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:59 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:Above posted directed at quinsforever, not Hammer.

I guessed

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:03 pm

quinsforever wrote:
Sin é wrote:
quinsforever wrote:

I am thrilled for England's chances in RWC 2015. proper rest and extra training for the squad members. fantastic. and the RFU is clearly going to help them out financially by paying extra for extra squad training time.

And the PRL's bluff has been called, unsuccessfully. Camou is going to have some pretty tough questions to answer now.
Ben Cohen ‏@RugbyBenCohen 51m
Thats crazy!! @WillGreenwood what a total shocker re English clubs not playing in Europe 12 months ahead of World Cup. Huge Blow. Shocker!
remind me, who does will greenwood do his punditry for? oh yes, SKY.

Will Greenwood has a gig to work on next year with Sky regardless of whether English clubs are in it or not.

Now, why would Ben Cohen tweet the above?

by quinsforever Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:04 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Each teams loses 3 home games. Average attendance so far is something like 10000. Assuming that continues that's 360000 tickets lost. So at £10 a ticket (because I'm being lazy) would be about £3.5M. The clubs are already only about even on the TV point of view so they're now out of pocket (not including all the sponsorship etc). And that's being conservative.

I am almost certain a new competition will be running for at least next year.

PRL wrote:The Chairmen and Shareholders of Premiership Rugby met today to consider amongst other matters the situation and options related to European club rugby issues.

The English Clubs have unanimously re-confirmed their position. Having served notice in June 2012, they will not participate in any competitions run by ERC from 2014-15 season.
ERC does not structurally recognise the role of the leagues and clubs in driving the success of club competitions, under the overall governance of Unions. The ERC voting structure is controlled by Unions even though the majority of commercial value is created by the independent clubs which represent 75 per cent of the participants.

Proposals put forward to address a new structure within a Rugby Champions Cup were agreed by a majority of the Unions in October, alongside meritocratic competition formats and equitable financial distributions. However, these have not been accepted by all.

The English Clubs have worked exhaustively over the last 18 months to propose solutions to the issues with the current European competitions and to provide a sustainable platform to grow the game in the various countries.

The English clubs are now pursuing other options.

i assume the reason you put ticket prices at £10 and attendance10k is because you are averaging HC and Amlin across 12 teams? there is on the other hand a cost-saving of the expenses not incurred for 12 teams traveling to 36 away games which generate no gate receipts. i think £300k per team sounds about right for lost gate receipts across the 12 teams.

RFU grossed over £150m last year. chucking £3.5m the PRL club's way for extra squad training seems like a no-brainer to me as a one-off for 2014-15. Would also show nice solidarity between union and clubs.

by quinsforever Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:06 pm

Sin é wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
Sin é wrote:
quinsforever wrote:

I am thrilled for England's chances in RWC 2015. proper rest and extra training for the squad members. fantastic. and the RFU is clearly going to help them out financially by paying extra for extra squad training time.

And the PRL's bluff has been called, unsuccessfully. Camou is going to have some pretty tough questions to answer now.
Ben Cohen ‏@RugbyBenCohen 51m
Thats crazy!! @WillGreenwood what a total shocker re English clubs not playing in Europe 12 months ahead of World Cup. Huge Blow. Shocker!
remind me, who does will greenwood do his punditry for? oh yes, SKY.
Will Greenwood has a gig to work on next year with Sky regardless of whether English clubs are in it or not.

Now, why would Ben Cohen tweet the above?

everyone has the right to an opinion. does being a professional dancer these days mean that Ben Cohen's is somehow more valid than those of the AP club owners who voted not to take part?

by HammerofThunor Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:10 pm

Remember all the tweets from current and ex players when Warburton was red carded in the World Cup? Saying it was ridiculous?

by quinsforever Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:10 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:Really.... and you don't think that this could really end in disaster 10 months before the start of your own WC? You say there will be no replacement tournament for English clubs such as an English cup, so effectively you think you are in a good position with your players going into said world cup on the back of Aviva Premiership matches?

no i dont. irish national team players already play far less competitive matches due to the demands of the IRFU. wont hurt Eng squad players to have a similarly balanced season ahead of RWC.

and they will still have 3 matches in NZ vs NZ
3AIs (who knows they could even do an WRU and squeeze in a 4th)
5 6N's

and 22 AP matches

plus Eng squad training

it's not nothing. i think players get injured so often because they are overplayed, apart from in coutries like NZ who have the luxury of meaningful central contracts. will be good to see england's options in the back line be what they should be, rather than what they are currently. we could field an injured-15 that would have a decent shot of winning the 6N's this year!

by HammerofThunor Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:12 pm

10000 was averaged for the premiership so far. £10 was just to make the numbers easy. Fair point about the travel costs. Butt they make a lot more on it than just covering so I think they'll go for it. I'd love something with the Russian pro sides, even if the quality is :cuss:

by HammerofThunor Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:13 pm

EPS players are already limited to about the same number of games as the IRFU players.

by quinsforever Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:15 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:10000 was averaged for the premiership so far. £10 was just to make the numbers easy. Fair point about the travel costs. Butt they make a lot more on it than just covering so I think they'll go for it. I'd love something with the Russian pro sides, even if the quality is :cuss:

i guess the PRL would need to decide, if they do do something, whether it will be to i) make money or ii) try to take the moral high ground - as you say, developmental or exhibition games against teams usually excluded from HC/Amlin - to get in IRBs good books.

by HammerofThunor Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:17 pm

Make money

by quinsforever Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:28 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:EPS players are already limited to about the same number of games as the IRFU players.

i haven't seen either of the contracts with IRFU or EPS. so can only judge on actual number of games played for clubs. and there's a significant difference. i was led to believe by some leinster fans that the IRFU control the number of club games very tightly (available for HC, Rabo less so - no real excitement about winning it or getting relegated). Even if not strictly with contracts, the end result is when EPS players are released from Eng commitments, they immediately play when they are needed in the AP (subject to the club not wanting to injure etc). so whether its the contracts with the elite squad, the control of IRFU of the provincial branches, or the more competitive nature of the AP, it doesnt really matter - it's something and it shows up clearly in the appearance statistics.

hence why i would love to see a refreshed and relatively injury free england squad heading into RWC.

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:31 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Remember all the tweets from current and ex players when Warburton was red carded in the World Cup? Saying it was ridiculous?

What has that got to do with it?

by Welly Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:31 pm

Not getting to much into it but i'm just glad I can cancel my Sky sports sub, and Bt is free for me.

by geoff999rugby Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:32 pm

There is again

by Welly Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:32 pm

Sin é wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Remember all the tweets from current and ex players when Warburton was red carded in the World Cup? Saying it was ridiculous?
What has that got to do with it?

It means opinions are like bumholes I guess

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:35 pm

quinsforever wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:EPS players are already limited to about the same number of games as the IRFU players.
i haven't seen either of the contracts with IRFU or EPS. so can only judge on actual number of games played for clubs. and there's a significant difference. i was led to believe by some leinster fans that the IRFU control the number of club games very tightly (available for HC, Rabo less so - no real excitement about winning it or getting relegated). Even if not strictly with contracts, the end result is when EPS players are released from Eng commitments, they immediately play when they are needed in the AP (subject to the club not wanting to injure etc). so whether its the contracts with the elite squad, the control of IRFU of the provincial branches, or the more competitive nature of the AP, it doesnt really matter - it's something and it shows up clearly in the appearance statistics.

hence why i would love to see a refreshed and relatively injury free england squad heading into RWC.

Saracens rested about 12 players the week before the first HC game.

I think the Leinster fans were very glad to win it last season, particularly when they lost a couple of finals.

by HammerofThunor Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:36 pm

Sin é wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Remember all the tweets from current and ex players when Warburton was red carded in the World Cup? Saying it was ridiculous?
What has that got to do with it?

About as much as their comments have now.

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:38 pm

Welly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Remember all the tweets from current and ex players when Warburton was red carded in the World Cup? Saying it was ridiculous?
What has that got to do with it?

It means opinions are like bumholes I guess

If any ex-player or coach says it doesn't matter that there is no European competition for England players before the world cup in England, let me know.

by quinsforever Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:40 pm

apart from 6Ns or LV Cup obviously?

by quinsforever Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:46 pm

The governing body's chairman Quentin Smith told BBC Radio 5 live those options included "expanding domestic competitions and looking at things we can do in our own jurisdiction, and playing countries and other clubs in the northern and southern hemisphere".

by Intotouch Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:53 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
Intotouch wrote:What happens if (a) the PRL can't deliver a cross-border competition to BT or (b) they rejoin the h-cup?

Either way they'd be breaking their BT contract. What would then happen? What is the least bad option now for the PRL?
The BT contract was released as for any future European competition. Not sure how not having one is a breach of contract. It sounds like it was rather none specific and the leaked rumours are likely to be related to the European side of it (rather than the league side as suggested). So X for 6 countries, Y for 4, etc.

Thank you for the reply.

I keep reading in articles that the BT deal is what is stopping the PRL from being able to go back to the h-cup. That they sold the rights to European matches their clubs took part in. Is this not so? Are these only rumours?

by quinsforever Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:55 pm

hey i've got a good idea. with the extra availability of AP players, surely the RFU should add Australia as a 5th AI in 2014 on Nov 1st? even though england are playing them also on nov 29th, it will sell out completely. and that makes the RFU about £8-10m i would guess? split the profits with the AP clubs for the extra player release. hole...plugged.

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