New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

by Sin é Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:42 pm

First topic message reminder :

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:
Sin é wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
Sin é wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:I don't think any one is argueing that the HEC is not a great comp, some are saying that it is not be all & end all & there is more to rugby.
PRL/BT have not stated the amount for Aviva & Europe separately as this would give information to Sky. However PRL have stated that PRL clubs will be better off with just the Aviva under the BT deal than they are now with the present combined Aviva/Europe.
The BT deal is for Aviva with an agreement that BT will have PRL's rights in any European comp.
It sounds like they have. The quote from Sin e suggests the BT part is worth about 20-odd million per year. Assuming he's talking in Euros and that 20-odd is about 20 (certainly reads that way). Over three years so thats 60 million. So that's about £50MM. Assuming that's top amount and therefore releases the whole "up to" £152M it means there is between £102M for the Premiership over four years. So thats £25M per year. Previous Sky/ESPN deal was for around £54M for 3 years, or about £18M per year. So that's an extra £7M a year for the Premeirship.

About
Thats working out ok so for the AP clubs. They now have a little over £2m for tv rights this year. Last year they got £1.9m (between AP & ERC).

Down guarantee of 3 home sell-out games (plus corporate entertainment ect).
They weren't sell outs. Even Tigers didn't sell out all the ERC games. But they can replace it with an English cup. Won't make as much but will probably make enough. Would be great if the Championship sides got involved and got an equal share (per team).
I wouldn't expect Tigers to sell out as they have a fairly big stadium, but clubs like Exeter were selling out (average 10k for HCup). Average about 7K for Aviva Premiership last year.
No HC sell-outs at Sandy Park last year (not even for Leinster), and the AP average was a little higher.

Last season:

Sale Sharks 5,568
Saracens 6,141
Quins 8,472
Warriors 7,295
Wasps 7,557
L Irish 7,557
Bath 10,744
L Welsh 7,317

etc. etc..

Heineken Cup
Clermont 9,819
Scarlets 9,258
Leinster 10,198

At least 2k more per game (and tickets are also more expensive).

by mystiroakey Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:24 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:All probably true. But drops of 70% or whatever are guesswork. And would heavily depend if the English started something else and how successful it was.

As someone who only watches rugby (or at least it's the only thing I'd pay a subscription to watch) there is no way I would subscribe to Sky Sports for the LV, Pro12, S15, RC and HEC (without English) unless I had a massive pay rise and I couldn't be bother to go to the pub for the English AI. BT is a no brainer, cheaper and English league games (which is main interest). Especially since most of the Pro12 is on FTA.

Am I normal, average, typically? Not really in most things but no idea for this.

You raise a very good point actually.

about the specific demographic of your typical rugby fan..

Rarely do rugby fans talk about or watch other sports. I had an argument with a poster last night (presumably because I have talked about football on this section before), saying I knew nothing about rugby etc and putting down football(trying to tell me that a rugby ball wasn't round!!) Its that snobbish attitude- that split we have in the UK.. Rugby isn't actually like that in many other nations..

You could actually be a typical English rugby fan and to be honest I cant see why many English rugby fans would pay for sky- as you are really only paying the premium for football.

Now this poster wasn't English- He was Welsh. But the point remains.

But as I have mentioned earlier I cant actually see a massive viewing figure change in the HC without the English(in the short term), because it is so small anyway- And i doubt the majority of English rugby fans would pay for sky sports just to watch the odd Heino game even If the English were in it. Now that the AP is on BT.

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:31 pm

quinsforever wrote:no details exist yet ASBO. i posted Lapasset's comments from a Q&A session yday i think on this thread. He told FIRA-AER they need to come to him with a proposal for how to run all european club competitions. so clearly very early days. But the fact that Lapasset made it clear ERC is history (the wicked witch is dead ) and clubs need more involvement in the commercial aspect of leagues, does hold some hope of getting PRL clubs back into the fold from 2015.

Lapassat wasn't at some FIRA-AER conference by any chance? Where/who was that Q&A. FIRA-AER 's competition organisation skills are quite limited and mostly confined to semi amateur competitions. You seriously think they would be able to take on the organisation of the Six Nations?

Most everyone is talking about a FIFA type organisation anyway (where the Unions will strengthen their control of the game).

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:49 pm

http://www.theroar.com.au/2011/12/12/lapasset-beaumont-in-irb-election/

Interesting blog on the election of Lapasset and who his supporters are. Don't think he has too many Tier 1 friends (who were mostly supporting Beaumont).

by Dubbelyew L Overate Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:50 pm

Just came across this article on Octavian Morariu, President of FIRA-AER and newly elected IOC member. The content is dated, (he was pro-ERC back in september), but he seems to be quite a big-hitter.

http://www.insidethegames.biz/sports/summer/rugby-sevens/1016082-put-players-first-in-heineken-cup-dispute-says-new-ioc-member-morariu

by broadlandboy Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:52 pm

Part of the problem is the differing systems in place. England can accommodate a top level league( with most saying this needs to be at least 12 teams to be viable),trying to run 12 teams the RFU have realised would be nigh on impossible( look at the accusations of favouritism by IRFU & they only have 4 teams) so better to work with the clubs.

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:03 pm

broadlandboy wrote:Part of the problem is the differing systems in place. England can accommodate a top level league( with most saying this needs to be at least 12 teams to be viable),trying to run 12 teams the RFU have realised would be nigh on impossible( look at the accusations of favouritism by IRFU & they only have 4 teams) so better to work with the clubs.

What accusations of favouritism? If you are talking of Connacht - its doesn't have the population/support base that the others have.

I wouldn't doubt that any decisions made have the best interests of the sport at heart even though I might think they are misguided at times.

by quinsforever Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:05 pm

Sin é wrote:
quinsforever wrote:no details exist yet ASBO. i posted Lapasset's comments from a Q&A session yday i think on this thread. He told FIRA-AER they need to come to him with a proposal for how to run all european club competitions. so clearly very early days. But the fact that Lapasset made it clear ERC is history (the wicked witch is dead ) and clubs need more involvement in the commercial aspect of leagues, does hold some hope of getting PRL clubs back into the fold from 2015.
Lapassat wasn't at some FIRA-AER conference by any chance? Where/who was that Q&A. FIRA-AER 's competition organisation skills are quite limited and mostly confined to semi amateur competitions. You seriously think they would be able to take on the organisation of the Six Nations?

Most everyone is talking about a FIFA type organisation anyway (where the Unions will strengthen their control of the game).

not being proposed that they take on 6N. european club competition only (for now).

these comments came from a press conference q&a session that Lapasset did directly with journalists. parts of the q&a form the basis of midi olympique artice from 2 days ago, parts of it were reproduced in rugbynistere.

by quinsforever Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:06 pm

Sin é wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:Part of the problem is the differing systems in place. England can accommodate a top level league( with most saying this needs to be at least 12 teams to be viable),trying to run 12 teams the RFU have realised would be nigh on impossible( look at the accusations of favouritism by IRFU & they only have 4 teams) so better to work with the clubs.
What accusations of favouritism? If you are talking of Connacht - its doesn't have the population/support base that the others have.

I wouldn't doubt that any decisions made have the best interests of the sport at heart even though I might think they are misguided at times.

no, they have the best interests of irish rugby at heart. as they should do.

by broadlandboy Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:11 pm

IIRC Ulster supporters used to feel that they got looked upon less favourable to Munster/Leinster (although changed now), so not just Connacht. Imagine trying to manage 12 teams rather than 4. There are accusations that some players get looked upon more favourably to play for England because of who they play for.

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:22 pm

quinsforever wrote:
Sin é wrote:
quinsforever wrote:no details exist yet ASBO. i posted Lapasset's comments from a Q&A session yday i think on this thread. He told FIRA-AER they need to come to him with a proposal for how to run all european club competitions. so clearly very early days. But the fact that Lapasset made it clear ERC is history (the wicked witch is dead ) and clubs need more involvement in the commercial aspect of leagues, does hold some hope of getting PRL clubs back into the fold from 2015.
Lapassat wasn't at some FIRA-AER conference by any chance? Where/who was that Q&A. FIRA-AER 's competition organisation skills are quite limited and mostly confined to semi amateur competitions. You seriously think they would be able to take on the organisation of the Six Nations?

Most everyone is talking about a FIFA type organisation anyway (where the Unions will strengthen their control of the game).
not being proposed that they take on 6N. european club competition only (for now).

these comments came from a press conference q&a session that Lapasset did directly with journalists. parts of the q&a form the basis of midi olympique artice from 2 days ago, parts of it were reproduced in rugbynistere.

Well, that would be a mad suggestion then if it was just European Cup. Just moving from one Union controlled organisation to another Union controlled organisation with no structural change in how European rugby is organised would be pointless and really only a bit of window dressing so as the PRL would save some face.

Do you have a link please?

by Standulstermen Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:24 pm

broadlandboy wrote:IIRC Ulster supporters used to feel that they got looked upon less favourable to Munster/Leinster (although changed now), so not just Connacht. Imagine trying to manage 12 teams rather than 4. There are accusations that some players get looked upon more favourably to play for England because of who they play for.

Nope we still feel that way Wink

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:26 pm

broadlandboy wrote:IIRC Ulster supporters used to feel that they got looked upon less favourable to Munster/Leinster (although changed now), so not just Connacht. Imagine trying to manage 12 teams rather than 4. There are accusations that some players get looked upon more favourably to play for England because of who they play for.

Everyone complains about IRFU favouritism, which suggests they are getting it right!

(You'll hear lots of complaints from Munster & Leinster fans about how Ulster seems to have gotten some of their signings)!

by quinsforever Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:28 pm

Sin é wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
Sin é wrote:
quinsforever wrote:no details exist yet ASBO. i posted Lapasset's comments from a Q&A session yday i think on this thread. He told FIRA-AER they need to come to him with a proposal for how to run all european club competitions. so clearly very early days. But the fact that Lapasset made it clear ERC is history (the wicked witch is dead ) and clubs need more involvement in the commercial aspect of leagues, does hold some hope of getting PRL clubs back into the fold from 2015.
Lapassat wasn't at some FIRA-AER conference by any chance? Where/who was that Q&A. FIRA-AER 's competition organisation skills are quite limited and mostly confined to semi amateur competitions. You seriously think they would be able to take on the organisation of the Six Nations?

Most everyone is talking about a FIFA type organisation anyway (where the Unions will strengthen their control of the game).
not being proposed that they take on 6N. european club competition only (for now).

these comments came from a press conference q&a session that Lapasset did directly with journalists. parts of the q&a form the basis of midi olympique artice from 2 days ago, parts of it were reproduced in rugbynistere.
Well, that would be a mad suggestion then if it was just European Cup. Just moving from one Union controlled organisation to another Union controlled organisation with no structural change in how European rugby is organised would be pointless and really only a bit of window dressing so as the PRL would save some face.

Do you have a link please?

i am trying not to get annoyed. i translated this yesterday and posted on this thread. did you not bother to read it?

is the link to the original q&a in french really going to help you?

are you implying that i deliberately misrepresented the q&a in the press conference?

by HammerofThunor Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:41 pm

Sin é wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:IIRC Ulster supporters used to feel that they got looked upon less favourable to Munster/Leinster (although changed now), so not just Connacht. Imagine trying to manage 12 teams rather than 4. There are accusations that some players get looked upon more favourably to play for England because of who they play for.
Everyone complains about IRFU favouritism, which suggests they are getting it right!

(You'll hear lots of complaints from Munster & Leinster fans about how Ulster seems to have gotten some of their signings)!

If the IRFU have managed to get everyone complaining the same amount they've got it pretty much nailed. It's like referees. If one side complains and the other says he was fair it suggests biased ref. If both start complaining he was probably pretty fair. If both are happy the universe collapses into a singularity.

by broadlandboy Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:42 pm

But you don't hear many saying Connacht are getting their signings

by geoff999rugby Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:45 pm

Sin é wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:IIRC Ulster supporters used to feel that they got looked upon less favourable to Munster/Leinster (although changed now), so not just Connacht. Imagine trying to manage 12 teams rather than 4. There are accusations that some players get looked upon more favourably to play for England because of who they play for.
Everyone complains about IRFU favouritism, which suggests they are getting it right!

(You'll hear lots of complaints from Munster & Leinster fans about how Ulster seems to have gotten some of their signings)!

Well to be accurate Ulster did use to get less money because the IRFU did not trust the previous regime - quite rightly.
Ulster currently get no more financial help than the other 2 main provinces - Leinster have far more central contracts.
Munster have slightly more and need help financing Thomond park.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:45 pm

The FIRA-AER website is worth a visit: http://www.fira-aer-rugby.com/

as are a quick perusal of its Bye-laws & Regulations: http://www.fira-aer-rugby.com/upload/file/1287089731_NH_JUR_Statuts_et_Reglement_Interieur_EN.PDF

This stood out for me near the top of p.5: "The FIRA-AER will safeguard the overall interests of the Unions"

It may not quite be the organisation that the PRL will feel it can do business with

by fa0019 Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:46 pm

Sin é wrote:
fa0019 wrote:I wonder what the money will be like without England in the competition? Sure they will get the same from Sky etc with the existing contract but when its up for renewal, without England it will lose perhaps 40-50% of its value.

England will probably come out victorious in the end... they are too big a market for it not too but at what cost to the national team and can they stick it out for as long as it might take? 1 season out may not be enough... it has to last until the next contract renewal.
It would be like SR without SA.... it supplies about 50% of the revenue for SR which is split evenly 1/3 each. It would kill the game in AUS for sure.

I personally think that the Rabo may have won the battle but they may lose the war... without the funding of an England included market it would literally be an amateur competition.

England have quite a strong league so I don't know if they will suffer too much from not playing in the HC for one season... they play each other so many times in the HC anyhow so whats the difference. Over time though, the longer it goes on, the worse the development for up & coming players.... 2015 won't be a problem.. 2017-2019 maybe.

It could help though as it will obviously attract less foreigners and mean more options for English players to get regular game time.

The England team aren't going to lose sharpness or development in 1 season without HC rugby. If anything they will probably be more fit, more fresh for the 6N and the RWC.
Lose 40-50% of its value. Not a hope. Sky are still going to broadcast the Heineken Cup in the UK (which is England, Scotland, Wales & NI). You seriously think that no one is going to watch it in England now because there are no English teams in it? You seriously think that English people won't be watching Jonny playing for Toulon (and what is likely to be a lot more English players) playing in France over the next couple of years?

The Heineken Cup is broadcast in New Zealand and they have no teams in it.

broadcast in NZ, and SA too but for how much? Probably pennies. They can't exactly ask for much can they... and NZ isn't exactly a growth market given its population is akin to that of Wales. People in the SH aren't interested in European rugby. If its on they watch it, if it means missing 7 De Laan or Varsity Cup highlights (i.e. uni rugby) then thanks but no thanks.

People in England will watch Leinster vs. Ospreys in the HC because it impacts their teams.... and often probably because their team has just finished playing or just about to play. Why do they need to pay their £100 a month sky fees when they can get the same match on BBC for free? Its the same players... the only diff, English teams aren't involved.

Its the same the world over. Its nothing to do with the quality of the rugby. People here in SA are passionate about rugby.... millions will tune in to see the Lions vs. the Rebels (i.e. a terrible match in all probability) and most will probably not be Lions fans.... but if the Reds vs. the Crusaders are on (i.e. a classic waiting to happen) its "sorry, I'm busy scrubbing my weber".

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:52 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Sin é wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:IIRC Ulster supporters used to feel that they got looked upon less favourable to Munster/Leinster (although changed now), so not just Connacht. Imagine trying to manage 12 teams rather than 4. There are accusations that some players get looked upon more favourably to play for England because of who they play for.
Everyone complains about IRFU favouritism, which suggests they are getting it right!

(You'll hear lots of complaints from Munster & Leinster fans about how Ulster seems to have gotten some of their signings)!
Well to be accurate Ulster did use to get less money because the IRFU did not trust the previous regime - quite rightly.
Ulster currently get no more financial help than the other 2 main provinces - Leinster have far more central contracts.
Munster have slightly more and need help financing Thomond park.

Just on the financing of Thomond Park - Munster have a repayable loan which they are meant to have paid back by about 2018/19. There is about 10m still outstanding and at the moment they are paying back about 500K per annum.

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:06 pm

fa0019 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
fa0019 wrote:I wonder what the money will be like without England in the competition? Sure they will get the same from Sky etc with the existing contract but when its up for renewal, without England it will lose perhaps 40-50% of its value.

England will probably come out victorious in the end... they are too big a market for it not too but at what cost to the national team and can they stick it out for as long as it might take? 1 season out may not be enough... it has to last until the next contract renewal.
It would be like SR without SA.... it supplies about 50% of the revenue for SR which is split evenly 1/3 each. It would kill the game in AUS for sure.

I personally think that the Rabo may have won the battle but they may lose the war... without the funding of an England included market it would literally be an amateur competition.

England have quite a strong league so I don't know if they will suffer too much from not playing in the HC for one season... they play each other so many times in the HC anyhow so whats the difference. Over time though, the longer it goes on, the worse the development for up & coming players.... 2015 won't be a problem.. 2017-2019 maybe.

It could help though as it will obviously attract less foreigners and mean more options for English players to get regular game time.

The England team aren't going to lose sharpness or development in 1 season without HC rugby. If anything they will probably be more fit, more fresh for the 6N and the RWC.
Lose 40-50% of its value. Not a hope. Sky are still going to broadcast the Heineken Cup in the UK (which is England, Scotland, Wales & NI). You seriously think that no one is going to watch it in England now because there are no English teams in it? You seriously think that English people won't be watching Jonny playing for Toulon (and what is likely to be a lot more English players) playing in France over the next couple of years?

The Heineken Cup is broadcast in New Zealand and they have no teams in it.
broadcast in NZ, and SA too but for how much? Probably pennies. They can't exactly ask for much can they... and NZ isn't exactly a growth market given its population is akin to that of Wales. People in the SH aren't interested in European rugby. If its on they watch it, if it means missing 7 De Laan or Varsity Cup highlights (i.e. uni rugby) then thanks but no thanks.

People in England will watch Leinster vs. Ospreys in the HC because it impacts their teams.... and often probably because their team has just finished playing or just about to play. Why do they need to pay their £100 a month sky fees when they can get the same match on BBC for free? Its the same players... the only diff, English teams aren't involved.

Its the same the world over. Its nothing to do with the quality of the rugby. People here in SA are passionate about rugby.... millions will tune in to see the Lions vs. the Rebels (i.e. a terrible match in all probability) and most will probably not be Lions fans.... but if the Reds vs. the Crusaders are on (i.e. a classic waiting to happen) its "sorry, I'm busy scrubbing my weber".

That would not explain why Gloucester made a Top 10 when playing Munster and didn't make the top 10 when playing USAP.

People who like watching rugby probably also like looking at golf, which will draw in an awful lot more subscribers than rugby.

by fa0019 Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:11 pm

There are a lot of Irish people in England yes who will have an impact but overall cut out the biggest union in the world, cut out the biggest pool of fans from one nation and a nation of 50MM people and you will see a significant reduction in fees.... and it will be more then their net worth i.e. a competition with 6-7 less teams will see a reduction of >6-7 teams share. How much is it, we can only speculate but I would worry for those who don't go with the biggest contributors.

It won't happen with the existing contract but over time the interest will drop. Its like a Fifa world cup when England don't qualify/get KO'd.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:13 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:The FIRA-AER website is worth a visit: http://www.fira-aer-rugby.com/

as are a quick perusal of its Bye-laws & Regulations: http://www.fira-aer-rugby.com/upload/file/1287089731_NH_JUR_Statuts_et_Reglement_Interieur_EN.PDF

This stood out for me near the top of p.5: "The FIRA-AER will safeguard the overall interests of the Unions"

It may not quite be the organisation that the PRL will feel it can do business with

Yep, there's the rub. There's no info about how much latitude the clubs would be given in controlling what they see as their own affairs within the Unionista framework. I suspect that all PRL have at the moment is assurances from Goze, Lapasset's vision and possibly some grunts from Camou (and maybe the odd "merde" coming from Toulon way).

However, it'll work both ways - "Unions" in FIRA-AER terms would mean all Unions, not just the Big Six. FIRA-AER would be obliged to consider the needs of the Polish federation as much as the French. (How long do we think that'll last?)

by quinsforever Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:21 pm

i agree Dub. just like UEFA uses Champions League money to subsidise the smallest entrantss, so i suspect would FIRA-AER. And i actually dont think PRL or LNR would have a problem with that - they would certainly prefer it to the current situation where they are economically supporting their closest rivals in club and international competition within the HC structure. And the smaller rugby playing nations (including italy but especially those outside HC competition) get hosed.

Lapasset specifically mentions that he wants FRIA-AER to look at growing participation at multiple levels of the club game. and that can only mean less money for the tier2 clubs and more for tier3 and 4.

by quinsforever Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:26 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:The FIRA-AER website is worth a visit: http://www.fira-aer-rugby.com/

as are a quick perusal of its Bye-laws & Regulations: http://www.fira-aer-rugby.com/upload/file/1287089731_NH_JUR_Statuts_et_Reglement_Interieur_EN.PDF

This stood out for me near the top of p.5: "The FIRA-AER will safeguard the overall interests of the Unions"

It may not quite be the organisation that the PRL will feel it can do business with

i suspect PRL would rather do business with a genuinely representative body like FIRA than a private company which effectively represents the interests of a very select few unions.

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:33 pm

fa0019 wrote:There are a lot of Irish people in England yes who will have an impact but overall cut out the biggest union in the world, cut out the biggest pool of fans from one nation and a nation of 50MM people and you will see a significant reduction in fees.... and it will be more then their net worth i.e. a competition with 6-7 less teams will see a reduction of >6-7 teams share. How much is it, we can only speculate but I would worry for those who don't go with the biggest contributors.

It won't happen with the existing contract but over time the interest will drop. Its like a Fifa world cup when England don't qualify/get KO'd.

The problem with the market in England is that the Football crowd hate rugby. A similar situation doesn't apply in most other countries.

There are going to be 20 teams in the competition anyway (a reduction sought by the PRL & LNR to anyway).

For some reason, Sky has purchased the broadcasting rights to the Rabo Pro 12 (30 games) even though it is broadcast on FTA in all the Pro 12 countries. Apparently, they want it for the English market.

Are England friendlies and tours going to be on BT as well?

by broadlandboy Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:35 pm

It isn't just the PRL teams out of the Hec that will reduce the media Rights. Reducing to 20 teams means 2 less matches each round & no Amlin means the loss of those matches as well. But then according to some those matches have no value anyway.

by mystiroakey Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:38 pm

Sin é wrote:
fa0019 wrote:There are a lot of Irish people in England yes who will have an impact but overall cut out the biggest union in the world, cut out the biggest pool of fans from one nation and a nation of 50MM people and you will see a significant reduction in fees.... and it will be more then their net worth i.e. a competition with 6-7 less teams will see a reduction of >6-7 teams share. How much is it, we can only speculate but I would worry for those who don't go with the biggest contributors.

It won't happen with the existing contract but over time the interest will drop. Its like a Fifa world cup when England don't qualify/get KO'd.
The problem with the market in England is that the Football crowd hate rugby. A similar situation doesn't apply in most other countries.

There are going to be 20 teams in the competition anyway (a reduction sought by the PRL & LNR to anyway).

For some reason, Sky has purchased the broadcasting rights to the Rabo Pro 12 (30 games) even though it is broadcast on FTA in all the Pro 12 countries. Apparently, they want it for the English market.

Are England friendlies and tours going to be on BT as well?

English or the UK market!!!

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:42 pm

broadlandboy wrote:It isn't just the PRL teams out of the Hec that will reduce the media Rights. Reducing to 20 teams means 2 less matches each round & no Amlin means the loss of those matches as well. But then according to some those matches have no value anyway.

I wonder why they are not running the Amlin - you'd think Fira-Aer would have a load of teams that they would want to play in it from Georgia, Romania, Russia and Spain that you all think should be playing in the Heineken Cup Rolling Eyes

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:45 pm

mystiroakey wrote:
Sin é wrote:
fa0019 wrote:There are a lot of Irish people in England yes who will have an impact but overall cut out the biggest union in the world, cut out the biggest pool of fans from one nation and a nation of 50MM people and you will see a significant reduction in fees.... and it will be more then their net worth i.e. a competition with 6-7 less teams will see a reduction of >6-7 teams share. How much is it, we can only speculate but I would worry for those who don't go with the biggest contributors.

It won't happen with the existing contract but over time the interest will drop. Its like a Fifa world cup when England don't qualify/get KO'd.
The problem with the market in England is that the Football crowd hate rugby. A similar situation doesn't apply in most other countries.

There are going to be 20 teams in the competition anyway (a reduction sought by the PRL & LNR to anyway).

For some reason, Sky has purchased the broadcasting rights to the Rabo Pro 12 (30 games) even though it is broadcast on FTA in all the Pro 12 countries. Apparently, they want it for the English market.

Are England friendlies and tours going to be on BT as well?
English or the UK market!!!

English market - the PRO 12 is FTA everywhere else - BBC Wales, BBC NI, Alba & RTE & TG4.

I'm sure some games can be got in England on BBC Wales etc.

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:46 pm

broadlandboy wrote:It isn't just the PRL teams out of the Hec that will reduce the media Rights. Reducing to 20 teams means 2 less matches each round & no Amlin means the loss of those matches as well. But then according to some those matches have no value anyway.

That was going to happen anyway.

by HammerofThunor Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:47 pm

Sin é wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:It isn't just the PRL teams out of the Hec that will reduce the media Rights. Reducing to 20 teams means 2 less matches each round & no Amlin means the loss of those matches as well. But then according to some those matches have no value anyway.
That was going to happen anyway.

Not in the original Sky deal.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:52 pm

It may be that the "5 Unions" refusal to run the Amlin next year was the last straw for Lapasset to dump his support for ERC and push his compatriots into a third way.

by Irish Londoner Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:54 pm

Sin é wrote:English market - the PRO 12 is FTA everywhere else - BBC Wales, BBC NI, Alba & RTE & TG4.

I'm sure some games can be got in England on BBC Wales etc.

If you have SKY you get access to the BBC local channels for the whole of the UK so BBC Wales and S4C , BBC Norn Iron and BBC Alba/Scotland so can see the FTA air games they show.

by geoff999rugby Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:56 pm

The Amlin has gone because there are not enough top flight clubs to sustain it without the English.

Only 6 to 8 left after places are filled in the HC.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:02 pm

Sin é wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:
Sin é wrote:
fa0019 wrote:There are a lot of Irish people in England yes who will have an impact but overall cut out the biggest union in the world, cut out the biggest pool of fans from one nation and a nation of 50MM people and you will see a significant reduction in fees.... and it will be more then their net worth i.e. a competition with 6-7 less teams will see a reduction of >6-7 teams share. How much is it, we can only speculate but I would worry for those who don't go with the biggest contributors.

It won't happen with the existing contract but over time the interest will drop. Its like a Fifa world cup when England don't qualify/get KO'd.
The problem with the market in England is that the Football crowd hate rugby. A similar situation doesn't apply in most other countries.

There are going to be 20 teams in the competition anyway (a reduction sought by the PRL & LNR to anyway).

For some reason, Sky has purchased the broadcasting rights to the Rabo Pro 12 (30 games) even though it is broadcast on FTA in all the Pro 12 countries. Apparently, they want it for the English market.

Are England friendlies and tours going to be on BT as well?
English or the UK market!!!
English market - the PRO 12 is FTA everywhere else - BBC Wales, BBC NI, Alba & RTE & TG4.

I'm sure some games can be got in England on BBC Wales etc.

BBC regionals and S4C can be had through a Skybox in England, dunno about other platforms. Terrestrially, BBC used to show a BBCWales Pro12 game on Friday evenings on the red button, perhaps they still do - no English commentary, though, just Welsh and Fanscene.

Edit - BBC stream a Region's game on their website now, and I think S4C do too.

by mystiroakey Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:12 pm

Sin é wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:
Sin é wrote:
fa0019 wrote:There are a lot of Irish people in England yes who will have an impact but overall cut out the biggest union in the world, cut out the biggest pool of fans from one nation and a nation of 50MM people and you will see a significant reduction in fees.... and it will be more then their net worth i.e. a competition with 6-7 less teams will see a reduction of >6-7 teams share. How much is it, we can only speculate but I would worry for those who don't go with the biggest contributors.

It won't happen with the existing contract but over time the interest will drop. Its like a Fifa world cup when England don't qualify/get KO'd.
The problem with the market in England is that the Football crowd hate rugby. A similar situation doesn't apply in most other countries.

There are going to be 20 teams in the competition anyway (a reduction sought by the PRL & LNR to anyway).

For some reason, Sky has purchased the broadcasting rights to the Rabo Pro 12 (30 games) even though it is broadcast on FTA in all the Pro 12 countries. Apparently, they want it for the English market.

Are England friendlies and tours going to be on BT as well?
English or the UK market!!!
English market - the PRO 12 is FTA everywhere else - BBC Wales, BBC NI, Alba & RTE & TG4.

I'm sure some games can be got in England on BBC Wales etc.

Well there is quite a few Irish in England as I Said, and the Irish regions are a religion as you know, and sky also buy Gaelic footy and stuff. There just wont pay massive money that's all.

Its still watched by enough to make it worth its while i suppose- Its just extra money for the Rabbo, whatever they sell it for

by Pot Hale Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:57 pm

It would appear that the PRL selected the wrong partner in French rugby to try to achieve what they want.

Where they should have started with was the other three Home unions and getting them on board.

That's what they need to do now.

by mystiroakey Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:07 pm

I think many that are concentrating on the PRL's mistakes and wrong doings are forgetting about the bigger elephant in the room which is france

by Poorfour Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:11 pm

quinsforever wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:The FIRA-AER website is worth a visit: http://www.fira-aer-rugby.com/

as are a quick perusal of its Bye-laws & Regulations: http://www.fira-aer-rugby.com/upload/file/1287089731_NH_JUR_Statuts_et_Reglement_Interieur_EN.PDF

This stood out for me near the top of p.5: "The FIRA-AER will safeguard the overall interests of the Unions"

It may not quite be the organisation that the PRL will feel it can do business with
i suspect PRL would rather do business with a genuinely representative body like FIRA than a private company which effectively represents the interests of a very select few unions.

I think it all depends on what's being proposed. To put the tournament under an organisation like FIRA would necessarily mean a review of governance, because I don't think FIRA currently has anything set up to administer a tournament with only those 6 unions involved. So there'd have to be a new structure and some elements of that will be negotiable.

The minimum the PRL will look for is the right to negotiate their own tv deal / commercials for domestic games (so that they can accommodate the BT deal). The next priority is likely to be the question of how the voting rights are distributed. The key there is the FFR and LNR - if the FFR can continue to dictate terms to the LNR it's unlikely to fly from either a French or an English point of view. If there is some movement on those points, it might fly.

Pot Hale, I don't think it was a question of "selecting" a partner. The PRL and LNR wanted change, the other IRFU, WRU, SRU and FIR didn't. The PRL will have been aware of the risks they ran by working with the LNR from the outset and I assume will have decided that the risks - and the possible outcomes - were preferable to staying in a tournament they felt was unacceptable. As it stands they have achieved some significant changes and I wouldn't yet rule out them getting some of the governance changes that they want as a condition for joining some future tournament.

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:39 pm

Poorfour, going way back, a comment was quoted I think from Bruce Craig where he said that the English and French clubs were not on the same page from the start. The LNR wanted to stay with the present Heineken Cup with various reforms that they got, but that the PRL wanted a new competition.

From what was also said I gather that the PRL were dodging negotiations anyway (not turning up to ERC meetings, but the RFU were etc). What happened was that the rest of the Unions got fed up of them dodging the issue.

The English clubs will never get the right to make their own tv deal in a cross-border competition.

The PRL thought they could bully all the Unions like they have been bullying the RFU. They never thought they would have had the French turn their back on them because they thought they would have won the day long before now and the French would have had no options except to follow their lead.

It could have been fun watching the French & English clubs trying to outdo each other though!

by geoff999rugby Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:54 pm

mystiroakey wrote:I think many that are concentrating on the PRL's mistakes and wrong doings are forgetting about the bigger elephant in the room which is france

I don't necessarily disagree with that.

For what it is worth I think England, Ireland, Scotland and Italy can be accommodated in a new European cup it is Wales and France that worry me.

Obviously there will have to be some TV renegotiation and quite possible some vociferous individuals like McCafferty, Camos and Wray need to be sidelined but that should be possible if BT play ball.

Welsh regional rugby is a complete shambles and their relationship with WRU as joke.
Half a dozen french teams will suck everyone dry (have you seen the TV deal on the table - 3x the BT deal !) - Celts first then the English
We all need a European competition to help combat that.
I remain confident a European competition will be in place 2015-16
Everyone has looked over the abyss this year, insults have been freely exchanged, now we will enter a period of reconciliation however painful because in the last analysis it is in our mutual interest.

The worry for me is Welsh rugby could go into total melt down in the interim.

by quinsforever Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:57 pm

Sin é wrote:Poorfour, going way back, a comment was quoted I think from Bruce Craig where he said that the English and French clubs were not on the same page from the start. The LNR wanted to stay with the present Heineken Cup with various reforms that they got, but that the PRL wanted a new competition.

From what was also said I gather that the PRL were dodging negotiations anyway (not turning up to ERC meetings, but the RFU were etc). What happened was that the rest of the Unions got fed up of them dodging the issue.

The English clubs will never get the right to make their own tv deal in a cross-border competition.

The PRL thought they could bully all the Unions like they have been bullying the RFU. They never thought they would have had the French turn their back on them because they thought they would have won the day long before now and the French would have had no options except to follow their lead.

It could have been fun watching the French & English clubs trying to outdo each other though!

this is sooooo missing the point. all the money from everyone's tv deals goes into the central pot. so why on earth does it matter who does what and how, if the maximum amount of money possible gets raised, and it all goes into a pot to be shared out along pre-agreed lines?

so yes the prl are trying to cut a tv deal, but they dont get to keep the money from it. the money is divided 1/3 each league (current proposal anyway). so they are not making "their own" tv deal.

if more money would go into the pot by every country selling their own tv rights and putting them into the put then i am all for it. if there is a single bidder that would pay more than the sum of the parts for exclusive rights to everything, then make that an option too. i couldn't care less how it gets done, the important thing is that its gets done in a way that maximises the money and coverage coming to RUGBY, and not back-scratching deals with pre-existing comfortable partners.

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:14 pm

quinsforever wrote:
Sin é wrote:Poorfour, going way back, a comment was quoted I think from Bruce Craig where he said that the English and French clubs were not on the same page from the start. The LNR wanted to stay with the present Heineken Cup with various reforms that they got, but that the PRL wanted a new competition.

From what was also said I gather that the PRL were dodging negotiations anyway (not turning up to ERC meetings, but the RFU were etc). What happened was that the rest of the Unions got fed up of them dodging the issue.

The English clubs will never get the right to make their own tv deal in a cross-border competition.

The PRL thought they could bully all the Unions like they have been bullying the RFU. They never thought they would have had the French turn their back on them because they thought they would have won the day long before now and the French would have had no options except to follow their lead.

It could have been fun watching the French & English clubs trying to outdo each other though!

this is sooooo missing the point. all the money from everyone's tv deals goes into the central pot. so why on earth does it matter who does what and how, if the maximum amount of money possible gets raised, and it all goes into a pot to be shared out along pre-agreed lines?

so yes the prl are trying to cut a tv deal, but they dont get to keep the money from it. the money is divided 1/3 each league (current proposal anyway). so they are not making "their own" tv deal.

if more money would go into the pot by every country selling their own tv rights and putting them into the put then i am all for it. if there is a single bidder that would pay more than the sum of the parts for exclusive rights to everything, then make that an option too. i couldn't care less how it gets done, the important thing is that its gets done in a way that maximises the money and coverage coming to RUGBY, and not back-scratching deals with pre-existing comfortable partners.

Why do the PRL want to cut their own deal in the first place? If BT & Sky were competing for the UK & Ireland rights, you are going to get a bigger pot.

Its complicated for England because it is a 4th of the UK as England, Scotland, Wales and NI for broadcasting rights are regarded as one jurisdiction.

Anyway, we all know the real reason for England wanting to negotiate its own deal is so that they can do a joint deal for the Aviva & HCup and pretend that they are getting more money for the Aviva so keep it for themselves, whereas in reality BT want to get their hands on the HCup rights.

The ERC had no choice but to stay with Sky as the PRL had already sold their rights to BT. By the way, BT declined to bid for the Rabo coverage in the UK.

FIFA negotiate all cross-border broadcasting rights by the way, despite the moans of Man Utd etc.

by HammerofThunor Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:21 pm

Sin é wrote:Its complicated for England because it is a 4th of the UK as England, Scotland, Wales and NI for broadcasting rights are regarded as one jurisdiction.

Why does this complicate matters? You keep banging on and on about showing you're completely misunderstanding the issues. Either that or you're doing it deliberately. The PRL have control over the global rights to english club games.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:26 pm

Sooo. Lads. Can't be arsed wading through 5 pages (Since yesterday! Holy Jaysus Shocked

)

Any noises outa the PRL today? They seeing sense yet?

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:37 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
Sin é wrote:Its complicated for England because it is a 4th of the UK as England, Scotland, Wales and NI for broadcasting rights are regarded as one jurisdiction.
Why does this complicate matters? You keep banging on and on about showing you're completely misunderstanding the issues. Either that or you're doing it deliberately. The PRL have control over the global rights to english club games.

I know I keep banging on about it. The reason is that it is a major issue.

England cannot have global rights to their games because it takes two teams to play a game. How do they have global rights to Northampton v Leinster when that game could be sold to Sky NZ, Fox Sports, Canal+, etc. etc. Have Northampton a greater right than Leinster just because they are English?

And who is actually going to flog the game in the first place.

You still haven't given a reason as to why the PRL won't sign up for collective selling like FIFA do for Champions League? Why do England have to be treated differently even though the money is all going into the one pot and divided up equally (We have McCafferty who threatened oblivion to the Celts & Italians word to do that)!

by Sin é Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:38 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Sooo. Lads. Can't be arsed wading through 5 pages (Since yesterday! Holy Jaysus )

Any noises outa the PRL today? They seeing sense yet?

They have dug themselves into a very large hole. It will take time to get out of that one!

by Dubbelyew L Overate Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:57 pm

Sin é wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
Sin é wrote:Its complicated for England because it is a 4th of the UK as England, Scotland, Wales and NI for broadcasting rights are regarded as one jurisdiction.
Why does this complicate matters? You keep banging on and on about showing you're completely misunderstanding the issues. Either that or you're doing it deliberately. The PRL have control over the global rights to english club games.
I know I keep banging on about it. The reason is that it is a major issue.

England cannot have global rights to their games because it takes two teams to play a game. How do they have global rights to Northampton v Leinster when that game could be sold to Sky NZ, Fox Sports, Canal+, etc. etc. Have Northampton a greater right than Leinster just because they are English?

And who is actually going to flog the game in the first place.

You still haven't given a reason as to why the PRL won't sign up for collective selling like FIFA do for Champions League? Why do England have to be treated differently even though the money is all going into the one pot and divided up equally (We have McCafferty who threatened oblivion to the Celts & Italians word to do that)!

By order of IRB, the Union within whose territorial jurisdiction a match is played controls the global broadcasting rights of that match. The return game, Leinster v Northampton, is controlled by IRFU, who have ceded the broadcasting rights to ERC, as have RFU for the game at Franklins Gardens.

by HammerofThunor Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:12 pm

Sin é wrote:I know I keep banging on about it. The reason is that it is a major issue.

England cannot have global rights to their games because it takes two teams to play a game. How do they have global rights to Northampton v Leinster when that game could be sold to Sky NZ, Fox Sports, Canal+, etc. etc. Have Northampton a greater right than Leinster just because they are English?

Yes they can. The IRB regulation specifically state that the rights are entirely owned by the hosting union. The RFU give control over domestic rights to the PRL. It's been stated, IRB regs quoted and reference several times by myself and other but you keep ignoring it.

And who is actually going to flog the game in the first place.

You still haven't given a reason as to why the PRL won't sign up for collective selling like FIFA do for Champions League? Why do England have to be treated differently even though the money is all going into the one pot and divided up equally (We have McCafferty who threatened oblivion to the Celts & Italians word to do that)!

Here's one reason. Because they've already sold their rights for 3 years. After that they can do what they (or the RFU) wants. England don't have to be treated differently. The Welsh could sell their games if they want or join and sell them collectively. As for it going in the pot, you know what's been said. If you don't believe it there's no discussion there so fine.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:21 pm

...and the English clubs say "Non, merci" to the ERC (according to Twitter).

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