New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

First topic message reminder :

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:I don't think any one is argueing that the HEC is not a great comp, some are saying that it is not be all & end all & there is more to rugby.
PRL/BT have not stated the amount for Aviva & Europe separately as this would give information to Sky. However PRL have stated that PRL clubs will be better off with just the Aviva under the BT deal than they are now with the present combined Aviva/Europe.
The BT deal is for Aviva with an agreement that BT will have PRL's rights in any European comp.

It sounds like they have. The quote from Sin e suggests the BT part is worth about 20-odd million per year. Assuming he's talking in Euros and that 20-odd is about 20 (certainly reads that way). Over three years so thats 60 million. So that's about £50MM. Assuming that's top amount and therefore releases the whole "up to" £152M it means there is between £102M for the Premiership over four years. So thats £25M per year. Previous Sky/ESPN deal was for around £54M for 3 years, or about £18M per year. So that's an extra £7M a year for the Premeirship.

About

Thats working out ok so for the AP clubs. They now have a little over £2m for tv rights this year. Last year they got £1.9m (between AP & ERC).

Down guarantee of 3 home sell-out games (plus corporate entertainment ect).

They weren't sell outs. Even Tigers didn't sell out all the ERC games. But they can replace it with an English cup. Won't make as much but will probably make enough. Would be great if the Championship sides got involved and got an equal share (per team).

I wouldn't expect Tigers to sell out as they have a fairly big stadium, but clubs like Exeter were selling out (average 10k for HCup). Average about 7K for Aviva Premiership last year.

No HC sell-outs at Sandy Park last year (not even for Leinster), and the AP average was a little higher.

Last season:

Sale Sharks 5,568
Saracens 6,141
Quins 8,472
Warriors 7,295
Wasps 7,557
L Irish 7,557
Bath 10,744
L Welsh 7,317

etc. etc..

Heineken Cup
Clermont 9,819
Scarlets 9,258
Leinster 10,198

At least 2k more per game (and tickets are also more expensive).

Erm no just trying to work out who you are.

Come on tell us..

rodders wrote:OK I'm lost can anyone please summerize where things are at?

All the Unions bar the RFU have backed the heino.

The PRL have left the heino. The RFU are sitting on the fence.

The LNR have committed to the Heino, if the English play.

The Welsh Regions previously backed the RC.

Have I missed something?

It is quite simple. All the teams that have any independence want out of the ERC. It looks like the Unions have forced all but the English to play in it. However the French teams have said this is dependent of the English playing. So next years Heineken Cup might involve Rabo and French but possibly just Rabo.

Does anyone actually believe the french wont play.

They were saying that to be nice to us English dudes. But the truth is they will play. There are wrong uns and will not stand up for what there thought was right( I am not arguing what is right or wrong btw)

By all means do the regional thing... four English regions, four French regions.  I'd be more than happy with that.  It would cut out the garbage of club relegation, as if you relegate 2 regions then you'd be relegating half of England!!!  But so too would it genuinely level the playing field in terms of the limitations of four sides and what you might like to get out of them playerwise in terms of International standard players.

Yeah, regionalism is the modern way to go... just get rid of the acient old private ownership clubs that are old-fashioned, anachronistic, holding modernism back and not fit for purpose in a new world order of big corporate owned superclub rugby!

There! - how's'at for inverted McCafferty-speak??!!

Sorry strokes, just being over-familiar it's a problem that was raised in my last professional tribunal as well, apparently some people don't want to be sniffed!

mystiroakey wrote:Does anyone actually believe the french wont play.

They were saying that to be nice to us English dudes. But the truth is they will play. There are wrong uns and will not stand up for what there thought was right( I am not arguing what is right or wrong btw)

At least someone has some sense. Goze has already admitted that he was using the English clubs to get a better deal for themselves. That was just a bit of a sop to the english clubs about wanting the English because they had just dumped them.

Facts are, they want the 2m that Camou is offering to play in the Heinken Cup. Now I doubt Camou will be giving that for just one year's participation.

The PRL have given Goze his out anyway by saying they didn't want to play in the Heineken Cup anyway, so its pointless saying they will play only if the English are involved because the English say they won't.

The "no" English Goze put in difficulty
English clubs meeting yesterday , confirmed their refusal to participate next season in European Cups organized by today's society, the ERC. The English Premier League (PRL ) released later in the day a press release stating that " the clubs had unanimously decided to camp on their position ," thus rejecting proposed by the French federation , Italian and Celtic transitional solution.

This announcement puts an end to hopes of Paul Goze get by March a shift of PRL . And situates the League President in a very uncomfortable situation. Last week , it had indeed conditioning the presence of French clubs participation of English . Probably unwisely . Because in fact , the Federation Convention - League should force them.

TV rights also ...
Paul Goze How will he deal with the bad mood of the club presidents who favored a hard line against the FFR (Toulouse, Stade French , Racing Metro and Toulon) ? Last night they were together. To discuss Europe but also to comment on the decision of the Steering Committee of the NRL launched a tender on the television rights of the Top 14, the risk of losing exposure Canal +. Wind challenge may rise by the AG NRL December 19 . Can it shook the president of the League ?

Google translate of article quinners posted above

Cant help feeling that just when we think its all over that we'll realize its only just begun...

Manofthematch wrote:Sorry strokes, just being over-familiar it's a problem that was raised in my last professional tribunal as well, apparently some people don't want to be sniffed!

 

Yes sin e the French clubs will roll.

I wouldn't be so sure about them rolling for ever without the English though.

But that in it self will not materialize as come the off year the English will be back,

I do think there will be certain governance changes though. I cant see the PRL clubs coming back without something in regards to the commercial dealings

mystiroakey wrote:Yes sin e the French clubs will roll.

I wouldn't be so sure about them rolling for ever without the English though.

But that in it self will not materialize as come the off year the English will be back,

I do think there will be certain governance changes though. I cant see the PRL clubs coming back without something in regards to the commercial dealings

As other have already pointed out, strokey, the clubs already effectively had control of the commercial activities sub-committee of the ERC

So what's the problem with making it official? The ERC are willing to destroy the HEC over a technicallity?

HammerofThunor wrote:So what's the problem with making it official? The ERC are willing to destroy the HEC over a technicallity?

The issue is that the PRL really want control over the whole shooting match, not just the commercial sub-committee

If the clubs are confined to running Marketing and Sponsorship there will not be a problem.

nah, mostly they just dont want ERC to be anywhere involved.

i bet they would settle for something supervised in the interest of all club rugby (FIRA-AER with expanded mandate), modelled on UEFA, where the clubs have far more ownereship of commercial aspects of the competition.

the non-starter is not the governance structure, it's that fact its still within ERC. this has been clear for 18months. nothing, absolutely nothing has changed about english clubs willingness to go back into ERC.

quinsforever wrote:nah, mostly they just dont want ERC to be anywhere involved.

i bet they would settle for something supervised in the interest of all club rugby (FIRA-AER with expanded mandate), modelled on UEFA, where the clubs have far more ownereship of commercial aspects of the competition.

the non-starter is not the governance structure, it's that fact its still within ERC. this has been clear for 18months. nothing, absolutely nothing has changed about english clubs willingness to go back into ERC.

quins, I guess you didn't follow my link to the FIRA-AER site then? It's like the ERC, but with clubs nowhere to be seen!! Even more union oriented

that is its existing charter ASBO. Lapasset told FIRA-AER last friday he wants them to come up with proposals for running european club competitions. and Lapasset said any european tournament MUST have the english clubs in.

and it's nothing like the ERC. no JP LUX cronyist appointment scandals. no cosy voting arrangements with shares changing hands faster than money in a brothel. no allegiance to preserve the 6N status quo, in fact the opposite, a mandate to grow the game. and most importantly, it isnt currently reviled by AP or top14 clubs who provide 2/3 of the teams and significantly more of the commercial value. i would say those are meaningful, relevant differences ASBO.

quinsforever wrote:that is its existing charter ASBO. Lapasset told FIRA-AER last friday he wants them to come up with proposals for running european club competitions. and Lapasset said any european tournament MUST have the english clubs in.

and it's nothing like the ERC. no JP LUX cronyist appointment scandals. no cosy voting arrangements with shares changing hands faster than money in a brothel. no allegiance to preserve the 6N status quo, in fact the opposite, a mandate to grow the game. and most importantly, it isnt currently reviled by AP or top14 clubs who provide 2/3 of the teams and significantly more of the commercial value. i would say those are meaningful, relevant differences ASBO.

Quins, honestly, you haven't done your research on this one - up until fairly recently, FIRA-AER was French dominated, with French administrators all over it. Lapasset is as keen as the rest of us to have the English clubs involved in European competition, but he made no mention on any changes in governance or even remotely similar.

I'm also not at all sure what the 'cosy voting arrangements' are? Do you mean the one whereby each participant union has an equal vote, but tilted more heavily so that France and England actually get more than that? As for 'shares changing hands faster than money in a brothel', perhaps you should be asking your former French friends about their internal arrangements?

Interesting that you mention votes changing sides, Quinners. Lapassat is still paying for FIRA-AER's votes to make him IRB President.  

Could you provide the link to where Lappaset made that statement? Was he at some event that FIRA-AER are organising?
(Not that I don't trust what you say, but you did miss some important information in your interpretation of where the LNR are at at the moment).

i.e., you failed to mention that the clubs are extremely worried and annoyed with Goze for the way he has handled the the Broadcasting rights (alienating Canal+) and the repercussions of moving the Top 14 from them as Canal+ has a massive audience. They even mention that the President of the LNR's head (Goze) is on the line.

By the time this comes up again there'll be a host of new acronym companies in the mix.

There'll be PRL and LNR of course - "we haven't gone away, you know" - to paraphrase someone somewhere!
But in order to ensure that votes count, I envisage a new Pro12 PRL type body.... which doesn't currently exist.  I also think the IRFU itself might give a modicum of autonomy to the Provinces and that might mean a National Provincial body to join the IRFU in running Irish rugby.

So, if PRL think that 'club' run rugby is the best method for them to gain a defining controlling position in any future Euro contest three or four years down the line, they might get a surprise at that point when they add up those prospective voting numbers again....

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

quinsforever wrote:that is its existing charter ASBO. Lapasset told FIRA-AER last friday he wants them to come up with proposals for running european club competitions. and Lapasset said any european tournament MUST have the english clubs in.

and it's nothing like the ERC. no JP LUX cronyist appointment scandals. no cosy voting arrangements with shares changing hands faster than money in a brothel. no allegiance to preserve the 6N status quo, in fact the opposite, a mandate to grow the game. and most importantly, it isnt currently reviled by AP or top14 clubs who provide 2/3 of the teams and significantly more of the commercial value. i would say those are meaningful, relevant differences ASBO.

Quins, honestly, you haven't done your research on this one - up until fairly recently, FIRA-AER was French dominated, with French administrators all over it.  Lapasset is as keen as the rest of us to have the English clubs involved in European competition, but he made no mention on any changes in governance or even remotely similar.

I'm also not at all sure what the 'cosy voting arrangements' are?  Do you mean the one whereby each participant union has an equal vote, but tilted more heavily so that France and England actually get more than that?   As for 'shares changing hands faster than money in a brothel', perhaps you should be asking your former French friends about their internal arrangements?

lapasset asked them to come up with a proposal.

i would say fira-aer represents a clear change of governance. no more privately owned company (ERC). fira-aer is quite different in name, structure and governance.

the brothel is as you refer to.

cosy arrangement is the ability to enforce a status quo in spite of the unhappy participants providing 2/3 of the teams and more of the financial value.

This is what your friend Goze is saying:

Clarification from LNR revealed its desire to implement a transitional season so that an alternative European competition could be organised for 2014-15.

"Given the amount of work that has to be done to set up the new format from the 2015-16 season the notion of a period of transition of one year is a valid one," said Goze, who referenced UEFA when discussing what type of body should replace ERC.

Last Thursday the Welsh, Scottish, Irish, French and Italian unions issued a joint statement declaring they stood "side by side" in driving a format overseen by ERC.

As the shareholders of ERC Ltd are the Unions, its clearly not a privately owned company like Saracens or Quins!

Would you be happy with a UEFA style organisation?

edit: any chance of a link to Lapassat's statement please?

no more links for you sin e. it's on this thread. go back. find it yourself. read it.

sin e. no need to thank me for translating it. google translate is awful. impossible to make sense of. it was a long article and i missed a few bits all the way through that were irrelevant or seemed more journo opinion than anything else. but i translated if faithfully and fairly. the bit u object to, that i posted above, is here

"The english "NO" puts Goze in a tough spot:
English said no yday. makes it to8ugh for Goze to get PRL to change course between now and march which he indicated previously that he wanted. Seems unlikely that the FFR-LNR deal will allow the french clubs to pull out. On the other side, Goze is going to have to deal with the hardline top14 owners of Toulouse, Stade, Racing Metro and Toulon who were ranged against the FFR. All the owners all met last night to discuss the european situation, and also the initiation by Goze of an auction for the top14 TV rights. There is clearly some risk still of the top14 clubs not falling into line between now and the LNR general assembly 19th december. Could Goze be forced to backtrack?"

there is nothing in the original article about goze's head being on the block. stop making stuff up again. vaciller means vacillate ie, change opinion. neither does the article say the clubs are "extremely worried and annoyed" with goze re TV rights. stop making stuff up.

Sin é wrote:This is what your friend Goze is saying:

Clarification from LNR revealed its desire to implement a transitional season so that an alternative European competition could be organised for 2014-15.

"Given the amount of work that has to be done to set up the new format from the 2015-16 season the notion of a period of transition of one year is a valid one," said Goze, who referenced UEFA when discussing what type of body should replace ERC.

Last Thursday the Welsh, Scottish, Irish, French and Italian unions issued a joint statement declaring they stood "side by side" in driving a format overseen by ERC.

As the shareholders of ERC Ltd are the Unions, its clearly not a privately owned company like Saracens or Quins!

Would you be happy with a UEFA style organisation?

edit: any chance of a link to Lapassat's statement please?

in fact, it is exactly the same, just incorporated under irish company law and not the company law of england and wales.

you have just revealed the depth of your lack of understanding. ERC is precisely and exactly a privately owned company.

sin e

dude u look like a reality denier

quinsforever wrote:

Sin é wrote:This is what your friend Goze is saying:

Clarification from LNR revealed its desire to implement a transitional season so that an alternative European competition could be organised for 2014-15.

"Given the amount of work that has to be done to set up the new format from the 2015-16 season the notion of a period of transition of one year is a valid one," said Goze, who referenced UEFA when discussing what type of body should replace ERC.

Last Thursday the Welsh, Scottish, Irish, French and Italian unions issued a joint statement declaring they stood "side by side" in driving a format overseen by ERC.

As the shareholders of ERC Ltd are the Unions, its clearly not a privately owned company like Saracens or Quins!

Would you be happy with a UEFA style organisation?

edit: any chance of a link to Lapassat's statement please?

in fact, it is exactly the same, just incorporated under irish company law and not the company law of england and wales.

you have just revealed the depth of your lack of understanding. ERC is precisely and exactly a privately owned company.

Quins, and what exactly do you think FIRA-AER is? It is simply an association (or representative body that operates much like a corporate) acting under French law. And that's what you want to govern European club competition? I'm not entirely convinced you've thought this through very well?

Even the IMF is a privately owned company, we be nowt but ants to them.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Sin é wrote:This is what your friend Goze is saying:

Clarification from LNR revealed its desire to implement a transitional season so that an alternative European competition could be organised for 2014-15.

"Given the amount of work that has to be done to set up the new format from the 2015-16 season the notion of a period of transition of one year is a valid one," said Goze, who referenced UEFA when discussing what type of body should replace ERC.

Last Thursday the Welsh, Scottish, Irish, French and Italian unions issued a joint statement declaring they stood "side by side" in driving a format overseen by ERC.

As the shareholders of ERC Ltd are the Unions, its clearly not a privately owned company like Saracens or Quins!

Would you be happy with a UEFA style organisation?

edit: any chance of a link to Lapassat's statement please?

in fact, it is exactly the same, just incorporated under irish company law and not the company law of england and wales.

you have just revealed the depth of your lack of understanding. ERC is precisely and exactly a privately owned company.

Quins, and what exactly do you think FIRA-AER is?  It is simply an association (or representative body that operates much like a corporate) acting under French law.  And that's what you want to govern European club competition?  I'm not entirely convinced you've thought this through very well?

i will reserve judgement til i see the details of a proposal from FIRA-AER. they've been given their assignment.

asbo i wasnt the one claiming ERC was some kind of different thing to the premiership clubs. there are lots of body corporate actually, and in order to qualify for many of the dfferent and varied benefits associated with them, there are clear obligations on those who belong to them. for example, charities, social enterprises, co-ops. these all have different legal and fiduciary obligations to private companies. i am involved in a social enterprise and it is structurally, philisophically and organisationally quite different from a limited company.

Manofthematch wrote:Even the IMF is a privately owned company, we be nowt but ants to them.

interestingly, so is the Federal Reserve! and given it holds together the entire world financial system, that would surprise 99% of people to discover its not part of federal government.

in the meantime, anyone enjoy acrostics?

Nevermind, quins, I'm sure that nice Mr Lapasset will sort it all out for you

he's my new favourite frenchman

after gillian galan

who is still some way behind carla bruni

so............................... the result is that the Unions (those big bad hairy things with yellah teeth and bad breath and stuff) are just the very same thing as them clubs are (the nice young ambitious men in modern suits with the bizzness acumen and the professionally coiffed hairdos)???

Well, why didn't ya all say so in the first place.  McCaff though will be most displeased to hear it!  That's a lot of things he's not liking on 606 today.  Earlier some English lad said that profit wasn't everyting in running a successful sport...  

Sorry McCaff - just put it down to a day you shouldn't have gotten out of bed for.  Things will be better tomorrow.

quinsforever wrote:he's my new favourite frenchman

after gillian galan

who is still some way behind carla bruni

Hmm, quite some difference between gillian and carla?

Took me a while to know what acrostics was...

Regressive
Underhand
Global
Ball
Yanking

Morgan Schneiderlin is my favourite Frenchman. Isn't Carla Bruni Italian, she just had a dose of a frenchman's salt for a while?

This thread is becoming more and more irrelevant with ever post

If we kept to topic it could be a tad boring. After all this is the 3rd or 4th (lost count) rebirth of this thread with still no end in sight

Quinns, any link to any chance of a link to Lapassat's request to FIRA-AER please? I've asked you a few times now for them.

When I do a google search all I get is
FIRA-AER vote Bernard Lapasset as IRB Chairman

Then there is this Six Nations Accord with FIRA-AER. Only one dissenting Nation. Guess who?

Six Nations protocol agreement: France the only dissenting voice
Since January 2011 and following the Lisbon Treaty, the 6 Nations have been keen to participate in European institutions. A document implicating FIRA-AER, the IRB and the 6 Nations was drafted to help increase cooperation with the common aim of developing rugby and collaborating on field studies.

This unbiased document deals with all the relationship difficulties of the past and should prove beneficial to all parties involved. It does not involve signing with the Commercial Company but rather with the Chairmen of the Six Nations. It will be implemented on a trial basis for one year. The FIRA-AER Executive Committee was favourable to the initiative. Pierre Camou, however, expressed his discontent with the agreement stating that "In the name of France and of Liberty, in the name of 78 years of Europe and FIRA, I shall not oppose it; however I shall not sign it"
When put to a vote the protocol was accepted by all nations, with the exception of France.

Cheers Geoff, there's nothing like adding a little mischievous madness to the contemptible madness that is currently occurring. I prefer irreverent though, every opinion matters :-p

This place is only worthwhile when it goes off topic.

I am as guilty as others- But we are like a broken record, we have argued and debated the same stuff 1000 times over.

Its like we are stuck in a ground hog day

Have you documented proof that we've debated the very same issues 1000 times over, mystir?  We only have your word for it.

Were you at the meeting that decided what we actually were debating?

And if you were at the meeting, did you actually get an invite?  

What percentage of us debated the same issues and what percentage of us debated different issues?  

Do you want to break us up into 3 Leagues with 12 opinions and 6 good ones or 2 leagues with 20 opinions and all of them crud?

Who told you I'm a broken record?  

Was it the Guardian or the Irish Indo?  We all know the Guardian doesn't like me and the Irish Indo thinks my broken-recordism is a threat to their paid up jounalists.

So come now.... let's not be making things up.  Let's have proof that we'd all be better off if we didn't spoof so much on here and stopped adding mileage to this bloody over-played topic!

Plus there is always the gameplay finances and profit making to think about, and I think we're all adding mightily to the 606 account on that score Where is my share?????

Yes I agree.

I think

Good man Our European competition would be the bestest.

You see McCaff?? That's how compromise works.

As long as this thing I just agreed to doesn't include a 606 sex festival then I am ok with it

I'll handle that part. I've set up that department specially for my personal team of ..handlers... and feelers.

 Everything seems in order here then!

Manofthematch wrote:Took me a while to know what acrostics was...

Regressive
Underhand
Global
Ball
Yanking

Morgan Schneiderlin is my favourite Frenchman. Isn't Carla Bruni Italian, she just had a dose of a frenchman's salt for a while?

did you spot mine earlier then?

her mother's family is french. rich as croesus too. best way to get away with being a gorgeous slapper. she's awesome.

Sin é wrote:Quinns, any link to any chance of a link to Lapassat's request to FIRA-AER please? I've asked you a few times now for them.

When I do a google search all I get is
FIRA-AER vote Bernard Lapasset as IRB Chairman

Then there is this Six Nations Accord with FIRA-AER. Only one dissenting Nation. Guess who?

Six Nations protocol agreement: France the only dissenting voice
Since January 2011 and following the Lisbon Treaty, the 6 Nations have been keen to participate in European institutions. A document implicating FIRA-AER, the IRB and the 6 Nations was drafted to help increase cooperation with the common aim of developing rugby and collaborating on field studies.

This unbiased document deals with all the relationship difficulties of the past and should prove beneficial to all parties involved. It does not involve signing with the Commercial Company but rather with the Chairmen of the Six Nations. It will be implemented on a trial basis for one year. The FIRA-AER Executive Committee was favourable to the initiative. Pierre Camou, however, expressed his discontent with the agreement stating that "In the name of France and of Liberty, in the name of 78 years of Europe and FIRA, I shall not oppose it; however I shall not sign it"
When put to a vote the protocol was accepted by all nations, with the exception of France.

https://2img.net/r/ihimg/photo/my-images/547/olzo.jpg/

https://2img.net/r/ihimg/photo/my-images/132/6r9p.jpg/

i already translated this several pages ago. let me know how you get on with google translate  

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

quinsforever wrote:he's my new favourite frenchman

after gillian galan

who is still some way behind carla bruni

Hmm, quite some difference between gillian and carla?

one's young, strong, ready for rucking

the other's hot, dirty and really loves......

quinsforever wrote:he's my new favourite frenchman

after gillian galan

who is still some way behind carla bruni

Laetitia Casta for me