HC round 2 - Munster vs Perpignan and Toulouse vs Connacht

by Artful_Dodger Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:45 pm

No thread, so thought I might as well make one.

Munster: Felix Jones; Keith Earls, Casey Laulala, James Downey, Johne Murphy; Ian Keatley, Conor Murray; Dave Kilcoyne, Damien Varley, Stephen Archer; Donncha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell; Peter O'Mahony (capt), Sean Dougall, James Coughlan.
Replacements: Duncan Casey , James Cronin, BJ Botha, Billy Holland, CJ Stander, Cathal Sheridan, JJ Hanrahan, Denis Hurley

Perpignan: James Hook (capt); Joffrey Michel, Tommaso Benvenuti, Watisoni Votu, Sofiane Guitoune; Camille Lopez, Tom Ecochard; Sebastien Taofifenua, Romain Terrain, Paulica Ion; Luke Charteris, Guillaume Vilaceca' Jean-Pierre Perez, Alasdair Strokosch, Justin Purll
Replacements: Maxime Delonca, Kisi Pulu, Jean Baptiste Custoja, Sebastien Vahaamahina, Dewaldt Duvenage, Tommy Allan, Richard Haughton, Dan Leo,

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:50 pm

That was a fantastic try. Scored by Sean Dougall.

by Artful_Dodger Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:54 pm

Very impressive from Dougall throughout that move, he came through the Ulster academy didn't he?

by Nachos Jones Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:57 pm

Munster playing very well Very Happy

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:59 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:Very impressive from Dougall throughout that move, he came through the Ulster academy didn't he?

Yeah I think so.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:04 pm

Fantastic break by Earls but a poor pass inside.. honestly if he can sort that out he would be an exceptional player.

One of the best line breakers in Ireland.

by KiaRose Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:05 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:Very impressive from Dougall throughout that move, he came through the Ulster academy didn't he?

Just for info - from the Munsetr site

He was born in Perth, Scotland

A former Ulster Academy and Ulster Ravens player who represented Ireland at U19s level. He featured on the Ulster Ravens side beaten by Munster in the 2010 British & Irish Cup semi final at Thomond Park.

Injury interrupted his progress and he moved to Rotherham Titans where he enjoyed two successful seasons before joining Munster at the start of the 2012/13 season.

Made the step up to Heineken Cup rugby look easy in October 2012 scoring a try in rounds one and two, against Racing Metro and Edinburgh Rugby.

Dougall's impressive displays came to a halt at the the start of November when he picked up a knee ligament sprain which saw him out of action until mid-December.

Following a return from injury and game time at senior and A level, Dougall sustained further knee ligament damage against Connacht in Musgrave Park in March 2013, ruling him out for a month.

During his first season with Munster, Dougall agreed a two year extension.

by Artful_Dodger Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:05 pm

Dougall started that off with another great break. Ulster could use a good 7 Whistle

by Nachos Jones Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:06 pm

Scrappy but very open match...

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:07 pm

Murray off. What a shame, he has been in sublime form.

by Golden Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:27 pm

The 3rd Irish team of the weekend to have 3 tries before half time.

by **Notch** Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:38 pm

Hopefully Munster follow the example of Ulster and Leinster in breaking 40 points, and Ulster in holding them to nil!

That would be brilliant with all the uncertainty about the Heineken Cup. Really send out a strong message to the rest of Europe.

by LeinsterFan4life Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:07 pm

Rediculous that a great try isn't rewarded because of a slightly forward pass.

by formerly known as Sam Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:09 pm

Harsh call on Charteris there. Looked like the ball went back from my tv. Much better second half from Perpignan, shame they waited 40 minutes to show any intensity.

Munster are all over the contact area, must be a nightmare to play against.

by Golden Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:17 pm

by **Rugby Fan** Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:19 pm

I went off to make a cup of tea thinking Perpignan will be relieved to have at least got a try...

Munster have just been awarded a penalty try. If they don't break 40 today, it'll probably be as a result of that injury to Conor Murray. I'd never really noticed him until the Lions. He's been great.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:26 pm

I have to say, O'Mahony has spent far too much of the game on the wing and has been largely anonymous because of it. I really don't understand why he plays like this at times, because he is at his absolute best when he is in the thick of the action.

by Golden Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:27 pm

Earls is playing well. It will be really interesting who plays in the 6 nations with Zebo to come back too

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:29 pm

Golden wrote:Earls is playing well. It will be really interesting who plays in the 6 nations with Zebo to come back too

He has been great. In the form of his life.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:30 pm

These forward pass calls are doing my head in. Extremely marginal, and depending on interpretation they are either given or not.

by Golden Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:30 pm

Frankie: "That looks fine to me"

No try laughing

nice to see an unbiased commentator

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:32 pm

Golden wrote:Frankie: "That looks fine to me"

No try

nice to see an unbiased commentator

It couldn't have been allowed after the Perpignan one being disallowed.

by SecretFly Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:33 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I have to say, O'Mahony has spent far too much of the game on the wing and has been largely anonymous because of it. I really don't understand why he plays like this at times, because he is at his absolute best when he is in the thick of the action.

Maybe he stays there until the game needs him to take on the action in the thick of it. Munster are never really a side that go for the jugular in the way that other sides might. Enough is enough tends to be their policy in many games. Not my favourite tactic but Munster seem to like that rhythm.

by Golden Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:34 pm

2 minutes to break 40 points

by Golden Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:35 pm

Instead its perpignan that score. Good hands there

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:40 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:I have to say, O'Mahony has spent far too much of the game on the wing and has been largely anonymous because of it. I really don't understand why he plays like this at times, because he is at his absolute best when he is in the thick of the action.
Maybe he stays there until the game needs him to take on the action in the thick of it. Munster are never really a side that go for the jugular in the way that other sides might. Enough is enough tends to be their policy in many games. Not my favourite tactic but Munster seem to like that rhythm.

It just frustrates me because he really is that sort of aggressive, fiery character that reminds me of Neil Best. With the added benefit of having a great rugby brain. Not to mention his leadership. He could be exceptional, if he plays as we know he can.

He needs to realise his running and playmaking game is a luxury, that is what he needs to wait for the game to call upon. The donkey work is always going to be needed though.

by Artful_Dodger Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:42 pm

By the way folks - where is Van Den Heever?

by LeinsterFan4life Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:43 pm

Broke his wrist or hand in his first game. Very unlucky.

by Pot Hale Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:45 pm

Notch wrote:Hopefully Munster follow the example of Ulster and Leinster in breaking 40 points, and Ulster in holding them to nil!

That would be brilliant with all the uncertainty about the Heineken Cup. Really send out a strong message to the rest of Europe.

What have the Irish provinces results got to do with sending a message about next season's competition? What message?

by Feckless Rogue Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:45 pm

With POM I just see a fiery character who doesn't have the strength or size, or the talent to back up his attitude. Personality can only take you so far. He's just not that good.

by The Saint Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:48 pm

Another class performance from Munster. Well done lads.

by **Notch** Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:54 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Notch wrote:Hopefully Munster follow the example of Ulster and Leinster in breaking 40 points, and Ulster in holding them to nil!

That would be brilliant with all the uncertainty about the Heineken Cup. Really send out a strong message to the rest of Europe.
What have the Irish provinces results got to do with sending a message about next season's competition? What message?

That the English leaving is bad for all six nations involved, but the top sides mainly remain in Ireland and France. That an English boycott will deprive them of the opportunity to compete with the best sides from around Europe- to be honest, games that most English fans probably want to see.

by Artful_Dodger Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:55 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:With POM I just see a fiery character who doesn't have the strength or size, or the talent to back up his attitude. Personality can only take you so far. He's just not that good.

HC round 2 - Munster vs Perpignan and Toulouse vs Connacht Fishing

by Pot Hale Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:55 pm

Great performance by Munster. You have to wonder though at some of the commitment displayed by French teams towards the comp. They seem very lacklustre.

by SecretFly Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:57 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Notch wrote:Hopefully Munster follow the example of Ulster and Leinster in breaking 40 points, and Ulster in holding them to nil!

That would be brilliant with all the uncertainty about the Heineken Cup. Really send out a strong message to the rest of Europe.
What have the Irish provinces results got to do with sending a message about next season's competition? What message?

Perhaps in the sense that all three of them deserve to be in a top European contest on merit? And given that fact, that they should also be there by right - as in three auto places as usual instead of being demoted to perhaps only one when the French and English would have sustained their auto 6 each?

That kinda thing.

by The Saint Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:57 pm

Notch wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Notch wrote:Hopefully Munster follow the example of Ulster and Leinster in breaking 40 points, and Ulster in holding them to nil!

That would be brilliant with all the uncertainty about the Heineken Cup. Really send out a strong message to the rest of Europe.
What have the Irish provinces results got to do with sending a message about next season's competition? What message?
That the English leaving is bad for all six nations involved, but the top sides mainly remain in Ireland and France. That an English boycott will deprive them of the opportunity to compete with the best sides from around Europe- to be honest, games that most English fans probably want to see.

That's the reality of the situation. Do the IRFU and Provincial teams have a good relationship? I wish another certain union would follow their example if that is the case...

by SecretFly Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:59 pm

Pot Hale wrote:Great performance by Munster. You have to wonder though at some of the commitment displayed by French teams towards the comp. They seem very lacklustre.

But if Munster had lost by the same margin, nobody here from Munster could make the same excuse though, Pot. Nope, they'd have just lost to a more potent French side who just had too much for them.

by **rodders** Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:00 pm

Great result for Munster - not the best performance though. There were a lot of errors and the attacking play still looks distjointed at times with too many players struggling to find the right depth and pick the right running lines and passes. Penny has had long enough now with these players to implement attacking patterns.

Individually some decent performances though - Dougal, Earls, Murphy, Keatley, Murray. Munster need a big improvement though next week I think.

by **Notch** Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:01 pm

There's not really a distinction Saint because the IRFU run the provinces. They are all part of the same organisation really.

The WRU now wish they had followed the same route at the outset of professionalism but if it is their plan to let the regions fail so they can control their successors its almost criminally negligent. And brain dead.

by asoreleftshoulder Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:02 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:With POM I just see a fiery character who doesn't have the strength or size, or the talent to back up his attitude. Personality can only take you so far. He's just not that good.

I think that's a bit unfair,the guy is only 24 and is Munster captain and has 19 Irish caps.There is some serious talent there although personally I think he might be better off at 8 long term.Sure he was massively hyped when he burst on the scene and maybe hasn't fully justified it but I'd be confident that he'll be playing at the top level for a long time and will only get better as he matures.

by **George Carlin** Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:02 pm

Will watch the highlights of this one.
Well done to the boys in red.

by **Notch** Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:02 pm

Saw a few Munster guys on twitter talking about how Sean Dougall was robbed of MotM. Have to agree- pretty gutted we missed out on him! Ulster Academy product who was passed over but came back stronger.

by The Saint Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:03 pm

Notch wrote:There's not really a distinction Saint because the IRFU run the provinces. They are all part of the same organisation really.

The WRU now wish they had followed the same route at the outset of professionalism but if it is their plan to let the regions fail so they can control their successors its almost criminally negligent.

I know they're under the same banner, but I thought the Provincial teams still had a fair bit of independence. It's what the WRU is trying to achieve now. But driving the Regions away, then convincing their top internationals to leave in the hope the Regions will go bust and come running back to hero WRU is not the best way to go about it. Such a mess.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:04 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:With POM I just see a fiery character who doesn't have the strength or size, or the talent to back up his attitude. Personality can only take you so far. He's just not that good.

Plenty of games he has played have proved otherwise. There are some games where he has been forced to literally carry the team for both Munster and the summer tour for Ireland. He can more than match the physicality (and this is where he seems to play best) against physical sides such as Samoa or America in the summer. He needs to realise that he must play like that every game though, and that his abilities in open play should be saved for opportune moments when the game does open up.

In terms of pure rugby talent, he is better than any other back row we have in Ireland. His playmaking is truly exceptional for a back row.

by **Notch** Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:06 pm

They do yeah, they each have their own individual CEO but they are beholden to the IRFU. The system is much more centralised than any other NH nation.

It's worked well- Munster, Leinster and Ulster are well run businesses now whilst the IRFU still have great access to players and support for the national team.

by Golden Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:07 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Feckless Rogue wrote:With POM I just see a fiery character who doesn't have the strength or size, or the talent to back up his attitude. Personality can only take you so far. He's just not that good.
Plenty of games he has played have proved otherwise. There are some games where he has been forced to literally carry the team for both Munster and the summer tour for Ireland. He can more than match the physicality (and this is where he seems to play best) against physical sides such as Samoa or America in the summer. He needs to realise that he must play like that every game though, and that his abilities in open play should be saved for opportune moments when the game does open up.

In terms of pure rugby talent, he is better than any other back row we have in Ireland. His playmaking is truly exceptional for a back row.

Wow and people wonder why he's so over rated

by **profitius** Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:12 pm

Odd kind of game. Munster looked comfortable but played badly.

The Charteris forward pass annoys me and I'm a Munster fan! I started a thread about it a while back that forward passes should not be called back if they're not obvious. The Downey pass to Earls was well forward so I've no problem with that.

by The Saint Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:12 pm

Heaslip is the best back-row in Ireland...

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:14 pm

I stand by my comment.

His awareness, playmaking ability and footwork are like that of a back. I don't know any irish back row with those attributes. Sean O'Brien has certainly developed into a great playmaker over time, but it doesn't come just as naturally to him.

Sean O'Brien is the better player of course, with an exceptional work rate, and O'Mahony will never be the explosive ball carrier like O'Brien, but they are different players with different strengths. Over time I expect O'Mahony to get similar recognition.

by SecretFly Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:14 pm

Okay...so I'm not sure how you could accurately compare the three Irish Provincial games so far. And ideally I wouldn't even want to as I'm delighted they all showed that they're up for the challenge. Nothing remotely close to being won yet, and still a long way to go. But the three of them are making a point that if other sides want to play rugby in this here HEC, then they'll have to play rugby with a capital R.

But just looking at how the three Provinces go about their business.

Ulster - in no mood give a sucker a break in their game against Treviso. Just how I like to see a team perform. It's not to insult the opponent (like some Irish sides seemed to have thought about these things in the past) but simply to ram home the idea that intensity lasts against any side - strong or weak.

Leinster - in no mood to let Saints back into their home game - again the importance of an 80 minute game attitude

..... and Munster - some heave ho! - a ciggie break...some more stuff - stop for sandwiches.... and *yawn* "yeah, let's go for another one" at the end.

And they get 36 without really having gotten too panicked or adrenalinised about it.

I really like the diversity of the Provinces styles, and I have a real soft spot for Munster's unique, almost apathetic, way of doing the business with perhaps less pomp and circumstance than the other two, but still lethargically signing in a performance that does enough for now.

I'm not saying I'd coach a side to play like them but I love their unique attitude and calm self belief - even through the fumbles.

A long way to go. Anything could and probably will happen; and it still could be a complete AP and Top14 show towards the closing stages. But for now - you couldn't be but happy at the levels the three Provinces got to this weekend.

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