New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

First topic message reminder :

"Rugby Union is too complicated to understand to attract a mass audience in the first place."

which is the problem for union fans..

because otherwise league or NFL could overtake rugby and kill it.

Off course the reality is it isnt to complicated and by far the best form, but if union doesn't progress(as at the moment it is by far the biggest global rugby type game) others will over take

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

Notch wrote:The guarantee has to be given though, that there can be no relegation from the Six Nations. Any change in format should come on the back of notable test success and not risk ending professional rugby in Scotland or Italy.

They it won't be the Six Nations, it will have to be the Seven or Eight Nations. For that, you'll need a bigger international window and there's no room in the calendar.

Why is professional rugby so sacrosanct Notch? Football thrives internationally by being an open sport. If professional rugby is not viable in Scotland, Italy (and arguably Wales) why not just accept it and move on (even if it may be considered backwards as a consquence of ill-considered, poor past decisions)?

Who benefits from that then? Surely we should be trying to expand the professional game, not scale it back?

The benefits won't be felt in the promoted nation as they won't be able to establish themselves before relegation. All we'd have is three or four countries on the brink and four established countries. It would damage professional structures in Scotland or Italy, but it would not provide a platform for long-term professional structures in other countries so its the worst of both worlds.

If we decide to add to the Six Nations, we need a complete rethink of the tournament structure and also likely a complete change in the structure of the European season. The 6 Nations is the financial engine that powers rugby in 4 out of 6 nations- a replacement tournament has the potential to power rugby right across Europe. Why limit it to 6 Nations at a time? If other Unions are to be added to the fold, allow the format to change to accommodate them in the same way Italy have been accommodated- given time to grow into it without the Sword of Damocles hanging over their heads.

Expansion of the international window would be desirable and necessary, but ultimately problematic when the French and English clubs are allowed to wield so much influence.

Exactly lets bring Georgia, Russia, Rumania, Canada, USA etc up

Pushing Scotland, Italy, Wales, Argentina, Ireland etc down makes no sense

Notch wrote:Expansion of the international window would be desirable and necessary, but ultimately problematic when the French and English clubs are allowed to wield so much influence.

Just to add to that, thats the biggest problem I see with the expansion of the international game and even the game at every level. To bring the other nations into the frame outside Rugby World Cups we will need larger international windows. Resistance is likely.

Would it be possible to get Rominia and Georgia into the under age competitions.

1. It will get them use to playing against the bigger teams earlier while not putting the financial burden to achive on them or on Scotland & italy.

2. There better players can be picked up by the professional clubs and give these two countries a full international squad playing at top level.

Of course Rominia & Georgia would have to have the their u20s be their B team.

After five years we look to make the full national sides ready for acceptance.

More top teams in europe is better for europe.

I would exclude russia currently as the two above are head and shoulders the next best two.

Bringing 1 eastern European team in to the fold is key- because they will drag others up with them- Italy was the wrong market if we were only interested in growing the game. It was just another western nation with similar culture(basically a safe easy friendly bet)

These countries are already playing each other in the European nations cup (ENC), so perhaps you should utilise that structure.

The 6 nations development (currently u20) teams should all be offered the chance to enter the ENC (although the old farts will be probably be against it!!)

Restructure the existing ENC divisions with the top2 6N U21 teams going into DIV A, next 2 DIV1B and so on:

Taking last seasons results for DIV1A, 1B and the 6N U20's:

Instead of the current:
Div1A: Georgia, Romainia, Russia, Portugal, Belgium, Spain.
Div1B: Germany, Moldova, Poland, Sweden, Ukraine, Czech Rep.

You could have:
Div1A: Georgia, Romainia, Russia, Portugal, Eng U20, Wales U20
DIV1B  Belgium, Spain. Germany, Moldova, Ire U20, Scot U20
DIV1C  Poland, Sweden, Ukraine, Czech Rep, Fra U20, Italy U20

Then just let promotion and relegation continue as before.

I'm sure the RWC qualifying structure could be tweaked to accommodate such an idea.

Not sure about internationals. ButI think the NFL model for domestic European rugby is best. because

a. With the three major leagues we have, a conference system is already partially built and functioning before we've done anything.

b. No differing qualification rules because everybody just plays in one tournament.

c. It accomadates all existing 6 nations.

d. It's expandable, without kicking out existing entrants. Of course a future Eastern Conference would be massively weaker than the other three, but at least they'd finally be involved. And once they are, they could possibly surprise us.

e. Equal share of TV money across all teams would narrow the financial gap between France and the home nations, easing the financial strains that are causing so much of recent turmoil. More money would pour into Russia, Georgia, Romania, if they had a pro12 style conference with equal funding to the others.

d. In the more distant future there could be a western european conference with the likes of Spain, Belgium, Portugal, Germany?

e. There would be a fixed limit on games for every nation. Something sensible like, say at most 30, if you make it all the way to the final.

Rugby is not football. There is only a rugby tradition in little more than 10 nations in the whole world. Destroying pro rugby in some of those nations is idiotic. Everybody working together to make it work for everybody makes sense. And nobody has been doing that really.

By the way I know everything I've said is pie in the sky and is very unlikely to ever happen. I just think the above would be best.

I might be being a bit dim here but didn't the
PRL effectively suggest that? Effectively three conferences with the top 6 in each going on to the EC (playoffs). The rest of the teams playing in the CC. All money is split equally between the teams. And there is/was outrage at that suggestion.

Or are you saying the Irish (for example) should get a share of the English league money.

The NFL appears to be a closed shop. They're not interested in growing the game other than commercially because it's already pretty much saturated. In rugby we're still trying to grow the game in other countries. I understand why this set up appeals to you as professional team wise you're pretty much saturated (at least in the shorter/long term). And you want to keep a lid on the spread in England and France to stop them outstripping what the union support can keep up with.

Also it's not just about growing pro rugby. It's about growing rugby as a sport, which includes the amateur level. It is interesting that close shop should be maintained to keep pro rugby in Scotland. If the interest isn't there in Scotland to support pro rugby why should it be artificially maintained at the expense of other nations' development?

Not a word uttered regarding the smashing of the glass ceiling. Without a chance of gaining access to the key flow of funds, would it be possible for any nation in Europe to provide a sustainable challenge?

Italy (rather than my preferred Argentina) were allowed into the expanded 6Ns with little more effect than a party popper. Indeed Argentina were held back from their original entry to the SH5Ns because supposedly they were supposed to structure a pro game on the Pampas but that never happened.

Indeed if it were not for the French and to a lesser extent the English, both Italy and Argentina would most likely to remaining in the Dark Ages. Wales and Ireland are extremes of xenophobic protectionism and one of them can't make ends meet in the pro club game. OK neither can the Franglos - but at least their clubs develop overseas talent.

That's the one beauty of football - their glass ceilings are all but non-existent by comparison. It doesn't change the overall rankings overmuch - but there has been a slow, organic change over time.

Any talk of the need to retain professional teams in rugby is huff and puff.

And to take the NFL as a potential model where players generated of grotesque proportions by dubious means and teams can be transported thousands of miles as in an Orwellian nightmare is to me an anathema.

The NFL model is without a doubt a bad move for a global game. Its just wrong full stop. It cannot grow within that system. NFL like all other American sports are about one historic market with no intention of growing the game. I suppose sadly very similar to the 6 nations all ready. So what can we change to make it more like the NFL.

The worse teams get first draft off the new players..

Yeah that's gonna work.

/headsgone.

mystiroakey wrote:The NFL model is without a doubt a bad move for a global game. Its just wrong full stop. It cannot grow within that system. NFL like all other American sports are about one historic market with no intention of growing the game. I suppose sadly very similar to the 6 nations all ready. So what can we change to make it more like the NFL.

The worse teams get first draft off the new players..

Yeah that's gonna work.

/headsgone.

hilarious. You are so wrong with that analogy. The PRL want to follow the nfl model not the 6ns (even though they are not squeaky clean either). Regardless this discussion is just another version of your prl apologist drivel

HammerofThunor wrote: If the interest isn't there in Scotland to support pro rugby why should it be artificially maintained at the expense of other nations' development?

The interest quite clearly is there for games against Ireland, Wales, England etc- similar to Italy. I don't think it's a great leap to say if they don't get those matches interest may flag if they go a season without any of those fixtures and that will have financial repercussions for their regional sides. And what does the promoted team gain? Quick relegation again most likely- they'd need several years of stability to really benefit.

Now if it was going to lead to another nation taking a step forward permanently to the level of Scotland/Italy but all I can see it doing is creating a situation where we have some sides yo-yoing back and forth every year and no-one in that group actually moving forward. Not just the Scots and the Italians, but the Georgians and Romanians and whoever else. They'll be thrust into Tier 1 and out again with no ability to plan long-term.

Relegation would be the path of least resistance for the Six Nations but if we want to truly smash the glass ceilings and open the game up we'd be better advised to reconsider the format entirely.

Me.. Are you drunk?

That makes less sense than a orange cow..

What the heck are you gibber gabbering about.

mystiroakey wrote:Me.. Are you drunk?

That makes less sense than a  orange cow..

What the heck are you gibber gabbering about.

no, not tonight for a change (later maybe). Doesn't it get tiring for yourself and QF to just come up with the same Shiite in different form every discussion?

ME

You have no idea what is being said and that is proved by your nonsense. I suggest you leave the discussion to people that can remain civil and have an uderstanding of the topic.

mystiroakey wrote:ME

You have no idea what is being said and that is proved by your nonsense. I suggest you leave the discussion to people that can remain civil and have an uderstanding of the topic.

Ah now, that's not very friendly at all at all. Don't you want a frank and open discussion or not? All i am saying is your views and t'other fella's are in every shape or form apologist drivel of the prl kind. All i am doing is getting to the point unlike your poor propaganda for the aforementioned league.

it would be better for you to enjoy the holiday season rather than getting all upset over these things...

There is only one person getting upset. You have some grudge. Its beyond sad.

You have just come on this thread to attack and lack any form of comprehension or understanding about the situation. Its nonsense of the highest order and I suggest you get of the net for a bit. That or just get over what ever it is that is eating you up . if me and quins can cause you too only come on here to talk about us that is pretty unhealthy lad. Give it a break.

Count to ten and walk away lads.

He just needs to concentrate on the topic rather than stalking posters.

It strikes me that if the Welsh regions join the Aviva then those extra fixtures are permanent. How can they ever come back to a European Cup?

Do away with LV Cup? Would that create enough space Feckless?

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

I still have to hope this is all brinksmanship. But, increasingly, this seems a fool's hope.  

This is now really all effed up.  How can good Rugby people on all sides screw this up so royally?  Everyone is to blame.  Even us.  As fans most people had the knee-jerk reaction to presume our union or teams were right and the others wrong.  Not just here on this forum, but I see the nonsense every-effing-where.  

I bet no one is remotely happy with the situation we find ourselves in today.  It also seems no one in the Rugby hierarchy anywhere has the skills, brains, or ability to throw off the emotional baggage to stop the madness and find the right compromise.  To say someone tried and someone else failed is yesterday's news.  And that would be wrong in any case.  The time for that, of course, was a year ago.  Everyone failed.  Everyone.
Sad.

I think that just about covers it doc - and as you say very very sad. I was really hopeful of things moving forward when qualification/money was successfully negotiated. Thought that things were starting to look more rosy then but how wrong can you be?

Apparently the welsh clubs have been offered 4million each to join in with the english league

doctor_grey wrote:I still have to hope this is all brinksmanship. But, increasingly, this seems a fool's hope.  

This is now really all effed up.  How can good Rugby people on all sides screw this up so royally?  Everyone is to blame.  Even us.  As fans most people had the knee-jerk reaction to presume our union or teams were right and the others wrong.  Not just here on this forum, but I see the nonsense every-effing-where.  

I bet no one is remotely happy with the situation we find ourselves in today.  It also seems no one in the Rugby hierarchy anywhere has the skills, brains, or ability to throw off the emotional baggage to stop the madness and find the right compromise.  To say someone tried and someone else failed is yesterday's news.  And that would be wrong in any case.  The time for that, of course, was a year ago.  Everyone failed.  Everyone.
Sad.

Doc, the problem with all that is that the main protagonist in this whole debacle is NOT a rugby man he is a SONG and DANCE man, hes never played the game and nobody within his elder family did either,

TBJ9625 wrote:Apparently the welsh clubs have been offered 4million each to join in with the english league

Is that 4m a year? Because a once off payment of 4m is nothing.

Id be in favor or more internationals, I'd either add Germany and Spain to the 6 Nations or bring in a 4 yearly European Cup to run when the Lions are playing.

If Germany ever start to achieve good results they would be thrown into the Six Nations quickly. England Vs Germany and France Vs Germany would be huge in terms of interest for those countries. Rugby has always enjoyed a surge popularity in Germany during the World Cup but the big problems they have had since 1999 is the Germans wonder why they aren't in it, and then wonder why they can't play it! Then forget about it and lose interest over time.

wayne wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I still have to hope this is all brinksmanship. But, increasingly, this seems a fool's hope.  

This is now really all effed up.  How can good Rugby people on all sides screw this up so royally?  Everyone is to blame.  Even us.  As fans most people had the knee-jerk reaction to presume our union or teams were right and the others wrong.  Not just here on this forum, but I see the nonsense every-effing-where.  

I bet no one is remotely happy with the situation we find ourselves in today.  It also seems no one in the Rugby hierarchy anywhere has the skills, brains, or ability to throw off the emotional baggage to stop the madness and find the right compromise.  To say someone tried and someone else failed is yesterday's news.  And that would be wrong in any case.  The time for that, of course, was a year ago.  Everyone failed.  Everyone.
Sad.

Doc, the problem with all that is that the main protagonist in this whole debacle is NOT a rugby man he is a SONG and DANCE man, hes never played the game and nobody within his elder family did either,

I hear you, but you are assuming there is more right on one side and wrong on the other. If there is a protagonist, then equally there are people who effed up dealing with him. Blaming the idiot only makes it easier to go down on the sinking ship feeling right was on your side. The ship is still sunk. We can't have degrees of trying to get it right or wrong. This is why there is too much emotional baggage in the way of a solution. The pooch has been screwed. Gotta swallow some pride and fix it now.

doctor_grey wrote:

wayne wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I still have to hope this is all brinksmanship. But, increasingly, this seems a fool's hope.  

This is now really all effed up.  How can good Rugby people on all sides screw this up so royally?  Everyone is to blame.  Even us.  As fans most people had the knee-jerk reaction to presume our union or teams were right and the others wrong.  Not just here on this forum, but I see the nonsense every-effing-where.  

I bet no one is remotely happy with the situation we find ourselves in today.  It also seems no one in the Rugby hierarchy anywhere has the skills, brains, or ability to throw off the emotional baggage to stop the madness and find the right compromise.  To say someone tried and someone else failed is yesterday's news.  And that would be wrong in any case.  The time for that, of course, was a year ago.  Everyone failed.  Everyone.
Sad.

Doc, the problem with all that is that the main protagonist in this whole debacle is NOT a rugby man he is a SONG and DANCE man, hes never played the game and nobody within his elder family did either,

I hear you, but you are assuming there is more right on one side and wrong on the other.  If there is a protagonist, then equally there are people who effed up dealing with him.  Blaming the idiot only makes it easier to go down on the sinking ship feeling right was on your side.  The ship is still sunk.  We can't have degrees of trying to get it right or wrong.  This is why there is too much emotional baggage in the way of a solution.  The pooch has been screwed.  Gotta swallow some pride and fix it now.  

Doc, I'm a an Os ST holder, so you can see where my allegiance lies, I'm absolutely sick and tired of coming on here and keeping on explaining where IMO the WRU are shafting the Regions. In 2003 when Regional Rugby was brought in the WRU was in the Poopie financially and they needed the BENEFACTORS to subsidise these entities. Now they have money and want CONTROL, as an example I think it was around 2007, we (Os) played Oz in a match which drew a CAPACITY Crowd, I believe it was 2011 and we wanted to play Tonga, the WRU REFUSED permission, citing player burnout, they went on to play Newcastle (I think). This was all done after the MS renegotiation took place with the debt lowered, yet with higher payments over a shorter period/. To me it stinks, I'm 66 years of age with heart,sight and hearing difficulties and if the Os fold, so would my support for ANYTHING below International level and this would also apply to very many of Os supporters.

Wayne,
I really sympathise with you. To me, the WRU come across as an organisation which is all and only about the WRU. It seems clear the WRU needed the benefactors at one time and now appear to want to toss them out. To create businesses and bring in partners then chuck them out when apparently no longer needed is unprincipled and unethical. If those businesses are not performing, the right approach is to partner to make them better. Frankly, the person(s) who would toss them are pieces of merde. In addition, that action would destroy the credibility of the WRU and no one with any sense would ever trust or deal with them in the future. How can that not be clear to the WRU is beyond me. And overall Rugby in Wales gets screwed. And the ripple effect hits us all. Simply bad.

Shifty wrote:Id be in favor or more internationals, I'd either add Germany and Spain to the 6 Nations or bring in a 4 yearly European Cup to run when the Lions are playing.  

If Germany ever start to achieve good results they would be thrown into the Six Nations quickly.  England Vs Germany and France Vs Germany would be huge in terms of interest for those countries.  Rugby has always enjoyed a surge popularity in Germany during the World Cup but the big problems they have had since 1999 is the Germans wonder why they aren't in it, and then wonder why they can't play it!  Then forget about it and lose interest over time.      

Germany are well down the pecking order and rugby is a tiny blot on the landscape in Germany.

Just because its Germany doesn't mean it would be a big game against England or France, it would be a one sided 100pt plus thrashing.
Its the same as suggesting that Germany-England at Handball (which is massive in Germany unlike Rugby) or Cricket would generate huge interest, they wouldn't

Georgia, Romania and Russia have a far better claim for inclusion than Germany!!

I've played against Germany and Holland whilst in the forces and the standard was below English town sides

Germany have improved greatly over the last couple of years, but I think what the IRB are doing with the Nations cup is working and a far better way to go about promoting the sport than a total thrashing by a 6 nations side.

I read an article a while ago about the tour that killed rugby in the USA. It was a popular university sport until a particular NZ tour where they wiped the floor with them. Arranging matches between two countries of different standards can be a disaster for rugby.

Professionalism hit Wales at pretty much their game was at an all-time low and there were desperate nights of long knives before the regions were created as a means of keeping the dragon buoyant.

I often wonder, had English rugby been in such a low at that time, a natural consequence may well have forced clubs like the Saints and the Tigers (probably too, Rugby, Bedford, Nottingham, Nuneaton and Coventry) to have merged into a East Midlands franchise.

I reckon that their cumulative EM gate would be no better than the Tigers' one now. Probably less. Heaven knows where (what town/city) though.

Times and economics are now irredeemably changed and different, but had the boot be on the other foot, my guess would be that Welsh league club be a different, stronger animal than the regions in terms of local support and identity.

Such a sh!t time for Wales to be forced into unnatural alliances - just as it would have been for England.

Anything new?

On regions - Wales like the rest of the pro 12 cannot afford to run a full pro league themselves - and talent would be too diluted amongst 10 teams.

Is it time to expand the pro 12? 4 more welsh teams? (in which case you could ditch the regions ?) More Italians? couple of scots teams. Can the Irish provide any more? then anyone else who wants a game - Georgia. Romania etc Play 2 divisions with promotion and relegation?

Wales would be daft to throw their lot in to the english league.

In what way daft. It Seems like a very obvious choice.

Leinster fan
Ive just re read the artical and it doesnt say. But you would think its a year or as you say its a pointless offer

The Rugby Paper article says that an 'insider/source' has said they think they'll be around £2M better off each per year in a AW league. That includes attendence increase projects.

I think it was the Rugby Paper that claimed the BT deal for Europe was for £100M over 3 years. Which is complete and utter nonsense and doesn't tie up with what anyone is saying.

One of the more objective articles on the future of European rugby:

Here’s looking forward to the best Super Duper year ever

Irish Times rugby correspondent Gerry Thornley has a whimsical look at what the next year holds for players, clubs and countries

January

Leinster, Munster and Ulster reach knockout stages of the Heineken Cup but are all paired away from home in the quarter-finals. The Welsh regions confirm their split from the WRU to join revolutionary new Anglo-Welsh-South African League. Before they go, they discover a fan behind the posts at one of their games and launch an inquiry.

February

While France beat England in Paris, Ireland and Wales set up second round shoot-out at the Aviva with opening home wins over Scotland and Italy. Warren Gatland is warmly applauded by Irish fans. To muted applause, Brian O’Driscoll scores match-winning injury-time try from Jamie Heaslip offload.

March

England, with a 60-point win in Rome, win Six Nations on points difference in four-way tie after injury-depleted Ireland (missing 23 players) lose in Paris. George Hook says Joe Schmidt must go. England are made favourites for the World Cup 2015 on home soil.

April

Leinster and Munster set up Heineken Cup final with semi-finals wins away to Saracens and Clermont. The PRL chief executive, Mark McCafferty, reaffirms Premiership Rugby’s intention to boycott the 2014-15 Heineken Cup and cites the weekend’s results as “endemic of everything that is wrong about an ERC-run Heineken Cup”.

May

In the last Heineken Cup final ever, Leinster lead Munster by 22-19 going into overtime, but after a 53-phase attack, JJ Hanrahan lands a drop goal to force extra-time. After Hanrahan converts his own try in the second period of extra-time, the game goes in to overtime in extra-time.
Nigel Owens awards Leinster three successive penalties and after 72 phases, in their farewell appearances, O’Driscoll scores off a Heaslip pass by the posts. However, Owens insists that the TMO goes through all 72 phases before the try can be confirmed. The 9.00 news is cancelled. Eventually, Owens decrees that although the final pass went forward by 10 metres, as Heaslip was standing on the back of a French removal van when it left his hands, the try is permitted. Ian Madigan lands the conversion. The trophy is shared for posterity in Munster and Leinster.

June

After week-long round-the-clock negotiations, a new European Cup is formed with Paul Goze of the LNR appointed the new competition president and Mark McCafferty its new chief executive. As part of the new television deals with BT and beIN sport, all games involving English and French clubs will be played in England and France so as to maximise their revenue and maximise the role of the Irish supporters
The financial share-out for the participating leagues will see the PRL and LNR each receive 49 per cent, because they are the biggest and bring the most revenue/most spectators/most TV audience/ most TV revenue/most everything and because, well, they’re English and they’re French, so might is right.

Ireland win the first Test against Argentina.

July

As part of the PRL/LNR revolutionary new tournament format for the new, rebranded European Cup, it will be called the Super Duper Rugby Champions Cup and the matches will be scattered over entire weeks so that Nigel Owens can referee every match.
The Lions announce Warren Gatland will coach the Lions in New Zealand in 2017.

August

In the Rugby Championship, the All Blacks begin the defence of their crown with back-to-back wins over Australia.

September

The All Blacks beat Argentina 76-0 in the Rugby Championship as the Pumas are still in Brazil celebrating their country’s World Cup victory.

October

The All Blacks complete a clean sweep in the Rugby Championship with victory over South Africa. The new European Cup begins with four Irish provinces winning on the opening weekend against Saracens, Northampton, Toulouse and Racing Metro. After the latter’s defeat to Munster, Jacky Lorenzetti threatens to buy the entire Munster squad. The IRFU, strapped for cash, say he can have them.
Mark McCafferty and Paul Goze announce changes to the tournament format whereby English and French sides will henceforth have two extra players on the pitch, giving them 17-a-side, as they are the biggest and bring the most revenue/most spectators/most TV audience/ most TV revenue/most everything and because, well, they’re English and they’re French. The Irish sides are warned as to their future conduct. The IRB say they are keeping a watching brief.
Ignoring the warning, the four Irish sides win again. The PRL/La Ligue announce that, as a punishment, all the Irish sides will play their remaining pool games with 13 players, all blindfolded.

November

England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales beat All Blacks, Springboks, Argentina and Australia on historic first Saturday of autumnal window. England harden to 1/3 odds-on favourites for World Cup.

December

In the first of the back-to-back fixtures, 13-man Leinster earn a bonus point in defeat against 17-man Bath at a packed Rec. The Bath owner Bruce Craig insists that all 13 Leinster starters should be forced to move to the Rec and the new PRL/La Ligue governing body agree. The IRB maintain their watching brief.
A week later the 17-man Bath, with their 13 new Leinster recruits, record a bonus point in beating 13-man, second-string Leinster, and similarly outnumbered, Munster, Ulster and Connacht suffer the same fate to French and English opposition. McCafferty and Goze declare this the best Super Duper Cup ever.

@ArnaudDavidSO: @simonrug Euro Crisis. The IRB is due to step in later this week. The PRL will be the target. Expect pressure on the RFU

@simonrug: @ArnaudDavidSO I've heard that too.

Also weren't the Italian's having a meeting today

Pressure on the RFU to do what? Not sure what the RFU can do other than not approve a cross-border competition, which they wouldn't as no-one else is going to.

They could threaten to not renew deals in 2016 but that would lead to an almightly Poopie storm and is also a relatively long way off.

That may well be all it is - you must not approve a cross border competition - but that is significant.

Heard the same from an internal Ulster source as well.

Not really significant if there is nobody to play across the borders with. I don't think the RFU would have approved a AW league anyway.

Interesting that the last spat were heard about was the FFR storming out for not getting their way (with the other 5 unions agreeing). Now the IRB (French lead) are potentially wading in against the RFU (who proposed a different set up than the French). Probably encourage the FIRA-AEC (French set up as a rival to the IRB orginally). Or is that reading too much into it?

Not really significant if there is nobody to play across the borders with. I don't think the RFU would have approved a AW league anyway.

Interesting that the last spat were heard about was the FFR storming out for not getting their way (with the other 5 unions agreeing). Now the IRB (French lead) are potentially wading in against the RFU (who proposed a different set up than the French). Probably encourage the FIRA-AEC (French set up as a rival to the IRB orginally). Or is that reading too much into it?

of course the RFU would approve the AW league if the PRL and clubs really wanted it.

would still require the WRU, and the IRB to approve it before it conformed to IRB rules.

why would RFU do the IRB's dirty work? let WRU or IRB do it.

in fact, if this is what IRB want, it shows how scared they are of vetoing a cross border competition themselves. must be worried about the courts over-ruling their archaic amateur-era regulations if they want the RFU to block it at the pass. can't think of any other reason for it.

quinsforever wrote:of course the RFU would approve the AW league if the PRL and clubs really wanted it.

would still require the WRU, and the IRB to approve it before it conformed to IRB rules.

why would RFU do the IRB's dirty work? let WRU or IRB do it.

No I don't think they would. The clubs 'really' wanted to expand the league a few years ago (to 14 using English clubs). The RFU said no. The RFU don't just 'do' whatever makes the clubs happy (regardless of what people say on here). They do what is best for English rugby as they are supposed to. I'm not sure what benefit to English rugby there is to having a 16 team Wenglo league. I can see some potential to a full on merging of the pyramids with a top two tier professional league structure with regional league below (possibly mixed Wenglo semi-pro fed into by English and Welsh divisions). But that's not what this is about and the WRU would never ever do that.

An improved Wenglo cup would be more feasible, potentially taking up the European rugby spots (although that on it's own isn't enough for the Regions so pointless on its own anyway). It would have more potential if it could replace the LV as well but that's tied up until 2016 I think.

ian ritchie is a very different beast to the maniacal martyn thomas, who liked to start every conversation with the clubs with the word NO.

he's not a union stooge, nor is he Lapasset's lapdog, so he certainly wont do the IRB's bidding. if it looks like a good plan, positive for english rugby, why wouldnt he approve?

if you think there is nothing in this for english rugby then that's your opinion. i personally think it would be great.

I agree Thomas was a tool and no good to take English rugby forward. I don't think Richie will do the IRB's bidding, what they (RFU) do will be in the best interests of English rugby, in their opinion.

Regarding the benefits to English rugby, as someone who's primary rugby interests are in English and Welsh rugby, and someone who's always enjoyed the Anglo-Welsh cup, I think the potential of a English/Welsh league would be very good. But not this 16 team freak of a league. And not if it meant putting the championship clubs on the backburner. If we're going to do it it needs to be done properly not some (media suggested as far as I know) massive 16 team league in the long term (also think it's pointless if it's just for a couple of season while things get sorted out).