New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

First topic message reminder :

"Rugby Union is too complicated to understand to attract a mass audience in the first place."

which is the problem for union fans..

because otherwise league or NFL could overtake rugby and kill it.

Off course the reality is it isnt to complicated and by far the best form, but if union doesn't progress(as at the moment it is by far the biggest global rugby type game) others will over take

Quins, in what way would it be great for Leeds, Bristol, Bedford, London Welsh, or any other English club with ambitions to progress to the top level ?

it wouldnt change anything for those clubs other than making it more lucrative if and when they did get promoted.

if the welsh clubs couldnt cut the mustard then they would get relegated.

thats what was proposed i believe back in 2007 so i dont see why now would be any different

HammerofThunor wrote:I agree Thomas was a tool and no good to take English rugby forward. I don't think Richie will do the IRB's bidding, what they (RFU) do will be in the best interests of English rugby, in their opinion.

Regarding the benefits to English rugby, as someone who's primary rugby interests are in English and Welsh rugby, and someone who's always enjoyed the Anglo-Welsh cup, I think the potential of a English/Welsh league would be very good. But not this 16 team freak of a league. And not if it meant putting the championship clubs on the backburner. If we're going to do it it needs to be done properly not some (media suggested as far as I know) massive 16 team league in the long term (also think it's pointless if it's just for a couple of season while things get sorted out).

i agree it needs to be done right. a proper path to 2 x 14 team anglo-welsh leagues? would neatly fit with fixture schedules for top14.

anyway, i dont see RFU as the blockage, that's clearly the WRU who want to call the regions to heel. But it does intrigue me that the IRB are trying to pressure the RFU. that does make me think they dont want this to go to court in either a RRW vs WRU battle, or RFU+WRU vs IRB battle. otherwise why get the RFU to do the dirty work?

Dunno if this has been discussed

Former England prop Jeff Probyn does not believe that a new Anglo-Welsh competition is a solution for Welsh rugby's financial troubles.

"[They think] that they're going to get huge crowds and they're going to generate millions of pounds more.

"Most of the Premiership fail to make a profit, they rely heavily on the funding they get from the RFU [Rugby Football Union]. So it's not as if the Premiership is paying its way and is self-sustaining in terms of its funding.

"The Premiership doesn't generate that amount of fans and that amount of money."

Probyn, 57, capped 37 times by England, also points to the lack of interest in the LV= Cup, a current Anglo-Welsh competition that has been largely used by both English and Welsh teams as a proving ground for players who are not first-team regulars.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25621306

i am 100% confident the welsh regions would accept the possibility of relegation from an AW league in exchange for escaping the WRU yoke.

quinsforever wrote:it wouldnt change anything for those clubs other than making it more lucrative if and when they did get promoted.

Depends. If the 16 team league was created it would require an extra 8 games a season and something would have to happen to make the lower positions have a point (top 4 playoff won't be enough). So basically it would mean there was no way of going to an European Cup. Would have the Welsh teams in the Premiership be more lucrative than a decent European competition structure?

I think this article was the thing that confirmed the idea of an Wenglo league

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/domestic-club-rugby-union/english-rugby-premiership/13343/welsh-will-be-safe-from-aviva-premiership-relegation/

Note there is not a single quote that suggests a Wenglo league is on the cards. More likely they're talking about the RCC that the Regional guys are saying they've negotiated a better deal for Pro12 teams in.

Also the rugby paper was the one that said the European part of the BT deal worth £100M   

Really quins? its not going to be very attractive to anyone welsh clubs playing in the 2nd tier.

TJ wrote:Dunno if this has been discussed

Former England prop Jeff Probyn does not believe that a new Anglo-Welsh competition is a solution for Welsh rugby's financial troubles.

"[They think] that they're going to get huge crowds and they're going to generate millions of pounds more.

"Most of the Premiership fail to make a profit, they rely heavily on the funding they get from the RFU [Rugby Football Union]. So it's not as if the Premiership is paying its way and is self-sustaining in terms of its funding.

"The Premiership doesn't generate that amount of fans and that amount of money."

Probyn, 57, capped 37 times by England, also points to the lack of interest in the LV= Cup, a current Anglo-Welsh competition that has been largely used by both English and Welsh teams as a proving ground for players who are not first-team regulars.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25621306

saw this one thanks TJ.

all very true, but i guess that is why the clubs want to be in charge of their own financial destinies if they think it gives them a shot at not losing money any longer.

TJ wrote:Really quins?  its not going to be very attractive to anyone welsh clubs playing in the 2nd tier.

i think they would risk it if it meant not being ground into the dust by Roger Lewis.

and to be honest, attendance for regions matches is hardly good at the moment, so i think they are willing to try anything to help their financial situation.

i dont think its going to happen mind, especially not ahead of a world cup year, but there is plenty of will there from welsh and english club fans and players and owners.

Never fear, quins, plenty of sensible fans of English clubs would prefer to only have Welsh clubs or regions involved in European club cup competition - not in the AP, or any league competition, thanks very much

Thing is on other forums the Welsh fans seem a lot more on board with a Wenglo than on here. But everywhere the majority of English fans seem to be largely against it. They see either stay the same, expand with English sides or full B&I league all better than a Wenglo.

Depends which site you visit

ScrumV is a very different viewpoint from Gwlad

HammerofThunor wrote:Thing is on other forums the Welsh fans seem a lot more on board with a Wenglo than on here. But everywhere the majority of English fans seem to be largely against it. They see either stay the same, expand with English sides or full B&I league all better than a Wenglo.

Hammer, as someone else has said the AW league is the RRW fall back position, what they really WANT is the RCC competition in which THEY have negotiated a much better deal than what the WRU within ERC could manage, and if it came to it THEY would prefer to play in the AW league than sign on for another 5 years of the existing PA, and I can assure you that is the overwhelming position of the fans on the Ospreys forum, can't vouch for other Regions forums.

quinsforever wrote:it wouldnt change anything for those clubs other than making it more lucrative if and when they did get promoted.

quins, the RFU will not sanction the regions moving to the AP. I doubt that even the PRL seriously want that either. Geoff Irvine certainly doesn't:

ESPN:

"Championship chairman Geoff Irvine has said the English game 'would go beserk' if the Premiership's mooted 16-team Anglo-Welsh league came into being.

The Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) has been given a new deadline of January 31 by the regions to agree a new participation agreement before they pursue 'other options' - widely interpreted to mean agreeing to merge with the Premiership. Plans for a 16-team league appear to be at an advanced stage, with Welsh sources suggesting a deal would guarantee three of the four regions immunity from relegation.

The proposals have angered England's second tier clubs, who feel they should be granted first refusal in the event of any Premiership expansion. And Irvine has made his feelings perfectly clear on what he feels are 'scandalous' plans, though he admits he doubts the expanded league will become a reality.

"I really cannot see the RFU admitting four Welsh clubs - the English game would go beserk," Irvine told The Rugby Paper.

"What's the point? The whole system that we've developed over English-qualified players seems to be working well. As for agreeing to give Welsh clubs immunity from relegation, they simply can't do that. The regulations over promotion and relegation are governed by the RFU, not Premiership Rugby, and they can't just make the rules up as they go along.

"It's scandalous, but it's just typical of the way this game is at the moment. We [the Championship] ask Premiership Rugby every year if they want to go to 14 teams and every year they tell us they don't. But now all of a sudden, because they're in the mire over Europe, they're talking about going to 16. It's nonsense."

Is there any word from the RFU yet as to whether or not they would sanction a wanglo premiership? Or are they having too much fun watching the Welsh regions and the WRU ripping into one another...

The RFU are saying nothing as far as I can see - in their attempt to alienate no one perhaps

16-team premiership has only been mentioned in the media.

a true anglo-welsh set of leagues could have, for example, 4 welsh pro and 24 english pro teams in 2 leagues.

no reason why something couldnt be created that works for everyone. does seem unlikely that the media-touted 16 team league has been seriously proposed anywhere other than in the media.

Intotouch wrote:                                                                                                    Is there any word from the RFU yet as to whether or not they would sanction a wanglo premiership? Or are they having too much fun watching the Welsh regions and the WRU ripping into one another...                                          

Nothing yet, Intotouch, altho it would be interesting to hear the view of the organisation charged with running and developing the game for the thousands of rugby clubs in England rather than the one covering just 12

Intotouch wrote:                                                                                                    Is there any word from the RFU yet as to whether or not they would sanction a wanglo premiership? Or are they having too much fun watching the Welsh regions and the WRU ripping into one another...                                          

It might be that RFU are hoping that IRB will take the pressure off them a bit, and make the decision for them.

i would hope that the RFU, if pressed, would say that they are open to all proposals which contribute to the improvement of the game of rugby in england, at all levels.

in other words, they won't veto anything until they can understand the practical and financial implications of something firmer than a media re-rumour.

Munchkin wrote:

Intotouch wrote:                                                                                                    Is there any word from the RFU yet as to whether or not they would sanction a wanglo premiership? Or are they having too much fun watching the Welsh regions and the WRU ripping into one another...                                          

It might be that RFU are hoping that IRB will take the pressure off them a bit, and make the decision for them.

that's funny, cause a few posts earlier, the opposite was being suggested....ie that the IRB want the RFU to take the pressure off them for a bit, and make the decision for them

The RFU are not going to comment on a fabricated competition of any kind. IF the PRL put forward a new competition of any kind the RFU will consider it and either approve or not.

For people who WANT them to comment I suggest just stop worrying about speculation. This has come from the rugby paper who in the past have put in some mighty WUMs or howlers depending on whether they're believed them or not. I don't know who their source is but they don't have any credibility as far as I'm concerned.

Interesting from Geoff Irvine that the Championship clubs are the ones who want it to be 14 teams. I would have thought that would benefit a couple of their teams and mean the rest are in a devalued competition.

quinsforever wrote:16-team premiership has only been mentioned in the media.

a true anglo-welsh set of leagues could have, for example, 4 welsh pro and 24 english pro teams in 2 leagues.

no reason why something couldnt be created that works for everyone. does seem unlikely that the media-touted 16 team league has been seriously proposed anywhere other than in the media.

14 teams in each, the regions in at the top, and without relegation? Not going to happen.

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Intotouch wrote:                                                                                                    Is there any word from the RFU yet as to whether or not they would sanction a wanglo premiership? Or are they having too much fun watching the Welsh regions and the WRU ripping into one another...                                          

It might be that RFU are hoping that IRB will take the pressure off them a bit, and make the decision for them.

that's funny, cause a few posts earlier, the opposite was being suggested....ie that the IRB want the RFU to take the pressure off them for a bit, and make the decision for them

Well it wasn't me that posted the earlier comments, quins. The RFU are under a tremendous amount of pressure to make a call on this fiasco. If the IRB step in, and make the decision for them then pressure off. Makes sense. It's just a possibility I'm playing with, quins. Nothing more.
Not sure it makes sense the other way around though...

I have to say this thread does make me laugh. m Nothing new has happened for ages but there is still much debate and many folk clinging to ridiculous and hopeless positions.

What we actually know.
The RCC is not going to happen in any form but the european cup will continue based on the 5N blueprint. England have a take it or leave it option. Everyone wants them in but not at any price.

The RRW bosses are proving to be as deluded as the PRL guys

Some folk simply cannot face reality

A ridiculous non starter of a concept - the wanglo league is being promoted as the saviour of welsh rugby when actually it would be disastrous as any sensible person knows - and is impossible anyway

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:16-team premiership has only been mentioned in the media.

a true anglo-welsh set of leagues could have, for example, 4 welsh pro and 24 english pro teams in 2 leagues.

no reason why something couldnt be created that works for everyone. does seem unlikely that the media-touted 16 team league has been seriously proposed anywhere other than in the media.

14 teams in each, the regions in at the top, and without relegation? Not going to happen.

why wouldnt there be relegation or promotion? the Regions would take whatever deal they can get away from roger lewis at this point.

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Intotouch wrote:                                                                                                    Is there any word from the RFU yet as to whether or not they would sanction a wanglo premiership? Or are they having too much fun watching the Welsh regions and the WRU ripping into one another...                                          

It might be that RFU are hoping that IRB will take the pressure off them a bit, and make the decision for them.

that's funny, cause a few posts earlier, the opposite was being suggested....ie that the IRB want the RFU to take the pressure off them for a bit, and make the decision for them

Well it wasn't me that posted the earlier comments, quins. The RFU are under a tremendous amount of pressure to make a call on this fiasco. If the IRB step in, and make the decision for them then pressure off. Makes sense. It's just a possibility I'm playing with, quins. Nothing more.
Not sure it makes sense the other way around though...

i agree. only plausible explanation is that the IRB doesn't fancy their chances of blocking a competition using its amateur-era regulations for cross-border competitions, so wants RFU to do it.

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:16-team premiership has only been mentioned in the media.

a true anglo-welsh set of leagues could have, for example, 4 welsh pro and 24 english pro teams in 2 leagues.

no reason why something couldnt be created that works for everyone. does seem unlikely that the media-touted 16 team league has been seriously proposed anywhere other than in the media.

14 teams in each, the regions in at the top, and without relegation? Not going to happen.

why wouldnt there be relegation or promotion? the Regions would take whatever deal they can get away from roger lewis at this point.

The 'no relegation' thing has been discussed for an age, quins. You say that the regions would take whatever deal to get away from Lewis. Not true. Their plan A is to remain in Rabo....

The wanglo cup will not happen. the championship clubs are against it, the WRU are against it, there is no space in the schedules for an expanded aviva unless no one ever enters any european cup from the aviva again. Relegation would mean the end of the region being relegaed as a competative team again unless the PRL give them parachute payments.

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:16-team premiership has only been mentioned in the media.

a true anglo-welsh set of leagues could have, for example, 4 welsh pro and 24 english pro teams in 2 leagues.

no reason why something couldnt be created that works for everyone. does seem unlikely that the media-touted 16 team league has been seriously proposed anywhere other than in the media.

14 teams in each, the regions in at the top, and without relegation? Not going to happen.

why wouldnt there be relegation or promotion? the Regions would take whatever deal they can get away from roger lewis at this point.

Whatever about the Regions wanting away from Lewis, I doubt if any of the players who have aspirations to play rugby for Wales want to get away from him!

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Intotouch wrote:                                                                                                    Is there any word from the RFU yet as to whether or not they would sanction a wanglo premiership? Or are they having too much fun watching the Welsh regions and the WRU ripping into one another...                                          

It might be that RFU are hoping that IRB will take the pressure off them a bit, and make the decision for them.

that's funny, cause a few posts earlier, the opposite was being suggested....ie that the IRB want the RFU to take the pressure off them for a bit, and make the decision for them

Well it wasn't me that posted the earlier comments, quins. The RFU are under a tremendous amount of pressure to make a call on this fiasco. If the IRB step in, and make the decision for them then pressure off. Makes sense. It's just a possibility I'm playing with, quins. Nothing more.
Not sure it makes sense the other way around though...

i agree. only plausible explanation is that the IRB doesn't fancy their chances of blocking a competition using its amateur-era regulations for cross-border competitions, so wants RFU to do it.

You think the likes of Manchester United etc. can play games in China etc. without the permission of their Associations. I seem to recall one of the small league of Ireland clubs being refused permission to host Real Madrid for a preseason friendly by the FAI.

TJ wrote:I have to say this thread does make me laugh. m Nothing new has happened for ages but there is still much debate and many folk clinging to ridiculous and hopeless positions.

What we actually know.  
The RCC is not going to happen in any form but the european cup will continue based on the 5N blueprint.  England have a take it or leave it option.  Everyone wants them in but not at any price.

The RRW bosses are proving to be as deluded as the PRL guys

Some folk simply cannot face reality

A ridiculous non starter of a concept - the wanglo league is being promoted as the saviour of welsh rugby when actually it would be disastrous as any sensible person knows - and is impossible anyway

Actually the last we heard the 5 union cupsn't sorted. FFR stormed out of the meeting supposedly.

Nope - its sorted. Its the only way a european cup will be held. A couple of hotheaded french club owners were unhappy yes - but the outline was agreed by the french union and the clubs. there will be a european cup and it will be based on that blueprint.

No TJ, the problem isn't with the LNR its with Camou; they want one year of the ERC competition without the English only and then completely new structures under FIRA-AER. The failure of other parties to agree to this means the 5 Unions competition with the French is very likely a dead duck.

TJ wrote:Nope - its sorted.  Its the only way a european cup will be held.  A couple of hotheaded french club owners were unhappy yes - but the outline was agreed by the french union and the clubs.  there will be a european cup and it will be based on that blueprint.

Actually think you have got this wrong.

Infact I'll go further a European Cup under 6N management without the French is at least as likely as an ERC competition without the English.
It is not only Wales tearing itself apart - happening in France as well, albeit at a slightly less intense level.

I smell compromise in the air between the Pro12 Unions and the eRFU/PRL.
France and the Welsh Regions may be the ones to lose out.

There is a basic agreement agreed by all except the English for next years european cup. a one year holding agreement pending proper renegotiation / restructuring. This was agreed by all the 5 unions, the LNR and I think the RRW. Notyhing else is dependent upon this nor is this dependent on anything else. Its agreed. downplayed by the pro PRL media tho and vbarious attempts to muddy the waters by some but its what is going to happen.

I wouldn't count on anything until it is signed. But carry on if you want to consider it a done deal. Personally I'm all for the AER control so hope things go the French way.

TJ wrote:There is a basic agreement agreed by all except the English for next years european cup.  a one year holding agreement pending proper renegotiation / restructuring.  This was agreed by all the 5 unions, the LNR and I think the RRW.  Notyhing else is dependent upon this nor is this dependent on anything else.  Its agreed.  downplayed by the pro PRL media tho and vbarious attempts to muddy the waters by some but its what is going to happen.

If you want to believe that go ahead - I think you are only choosing to believe what you want to.

There is no further compromise between the Pro 12 unions and the PRL. They have gone as far as they possibly can and were rejected by the PRL out of hand. End of negotiations. PRL have a take it or leave it option.

Who manages next years european cup is not fixed in stone. However the basic format is as are the fact 5 nations will be represented, the english are invited and its basic structure is agreed ( but will need modifying if the english still refuse to play)

geoff999rugby wrote:

TJ wrote:There is a basic agreement agreed by all except the English for next years european cup.  a one year holding agreement pending proper renegotiation / restructuring.  This was agreed by all the 5 unions, the LNR and I think the RRW.  Notyhing else is dependent upon this nor is this dependent on anything else.  Its agreed.  downplayed by the pro PRL media tho and vbarious attempts to muddy the waters by some but its what is going to happen.

If you want to believe that go ahead - I think you are only choosing to believe what you want to.

I have been 100% right so far on this. Everything I have said will happen has happened. This is agreed by the 5 unions, the LNR and I think the RRW. Its the only game in town for next year and is simply a holding exercise while a new comp is sorted out. A new comp that will not be a dictat of the PRL

HammerofThunor wrote:I wouldn't count on anything until it is signed. But carry on if you want to consider it a done deal. Personally I'm all for the AER control so hope things go the French way.

AER control for the following year is a possibility as it is an outside possibility for this year.  The deal is done tho on an interim year for next year - structure, entrants etc.

TJ you continue to live in your ivory tower - you are delusional if you believe this is all done and dusted

TJ wrote:There is a basic agreement agreed by all except the English for next years european cup.  a one year holding agreement pending proper renegotiation / restructuring.  This was agreed by all the 5 unions, the LNR and I think the RRW.  Notyhing else is dependent upon this nor is this dependent on anything else.  Its agreed.  downplayed by the pro PRL media tho and vbarious attempts to muddy the waters by some but its what is going to happen.

Yes TJ it was agreed but now the temperature has changed yet again and there is a good chance it won't happen. Not unless the other unions give Camou everything he wants

Nope - not delusional simply able to understand. Its only an outline agreement but it is there. Next year there will be a european cup played based on the 5N agreement and run by the unions. this is a fact. the only issue is will the PRL join in. Its only a holding agreement for one year to get negotiating time for future comps but that is what is going to happen. When almost allteh stakeholders agree an outline agreement you can be pretty certain it is what will happen. all 5 unions and the french clubs agreed it.

Notch wrote:

TJ wrote:There is a basic agreement agreed by all except the English for next years european cup.  a one year holding agreement pending proper renegotiation / restructuring.  This was agreed by all the 5 unions, the LNR and I think the RRW.  Notyhing else is dependent upon this nor is this dependent on anything else.  Its agreed.  downplayed by the pro PRL media tho and vbarious attempts to muddy the waters by some but its what is going to happen.

Yes TJ it was agreed but now the temperature has changed yet again and there is a good chance it won't happen. Not unless the other unions give Camou everything he wants

You are confusing Camous wishlist for future years. this is an entirely separate issue from next years structure which Camou agreed.

TJ wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

TJ wrote:There is a basic agreement agreed by all except the English for next years european cup.  a one year holding agreement pending proper renegotiation / restructuring.  This was agreed by all the 5 unions, the LNR and I think the RRW.  Notyhing else is dependent upon this nor is this dependent on anything else.  Its agreed.  downplayed by the pro PRL media tho and vbarious attempts to muddy the waters by some but its what is going to happen.

If you want to believe that go ahead - I think you are only choosing to believe what you want to.

I have been 100% right so far on this.  Everything I have said will happen has happened.  This is agreed by the 5 unions, the LNR and I think the RRW.  Its the only game in town for next year and is simply a holding exercise while a new comp is sorted out.  A new comp that will not be a dictat of the PRL

TJ, according to some reports, Camou walked out of a meeting that was arranged by Richie, and the reason, it's alleged, is because the home Unions would not agree to a new Euro competition being run by FIRA. It is also further alleged that FFR have now withdrawn their support of the 5 unions agreement because of this. I don't know how much truth there is to these reports, but it is true that FFR/IRB want a FIRA run competition.

That is for future comps - not next years.  This is where you are getting confused.  Next years is agreed.

Edit

Ritchie may have been attempting to reopen negotiations on next years comp - if so thats not happening. the PRL / RFU have nothing to bargain with or room for negotiation on next years comp.

TJ wrote:Nope - not delusional simply able to understand.  Its only an outline agreement but it is there.  Next year there will be a european cup played based on the 5N agreement and run by the unions.  this is a fact.  the only issue is will the PRL join in.  Its only a holding agreement for one year to get negotiating time for future comps but that is what is going to happen.  When almost allteh stakeholders agree an outline agreement you can be pretty certain it is what will happen.  all 5 unions and the french clubs agreed it.

No, just no.

TJ wrote:That is for future comps - not next years.  This is where you are getting confused.  Next years is agreed.

It is next seasons competition that FFR have allegedly withdrawn their support from.