New European Rugby cup (or whatever it is called) - Qualification agreed

First topic message reminder :

"Rugby Union is too complicated to understand to attract a mass audience in the first place."

which is the problem for union fans..

because otherwise league or NFL could overtake rugby and kill it.

Off course the reality is it isnt to complicated and by far the best form, but if union doesn't progress(as at the moment it is by far the biggest global rugby type game) others will over take

Football: Association Football[edit]

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Mystri - you have repeatedly made assertions and refuse to back  them up with anything  I can only assume because you can't.

football ( less competitive teams / less opportunities for smaller nations teams)- the champions league used to be the cup winners cup with the winners of every nations cup entered.  then it became the champions league.  Over the years the big countries have increased the number of entrants they have and the smaller countries now have to go thru a qualifying round.  so the biggest get more, the smaller get less.  this is your blueprint for rugby.  Also since the premier league in England the international game has taken a back set to the club game

You assert that somehow that the PRLs expansion of their market for the game will led to increased numbers of people playing.  I would like you to explain how this can happen.  i would also like you to explain why the PRL proposals will not concentrate power and money into the hands of those who have it already leading to a situation like football

Can you - or is it all empty rhetoric

Most of them are crap with the top players moving to big leagues overseas. Exactly what is happening in rugby, with movement of players to France in particular, and what we'd want to avoid seeing in rugby with, say, future Argentinean pro sides.

TJ wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

TJ wrote:Poorfour - I merely use the Fijian barbarians match as an example of the difference in attitude that belies the crys from some quarters of the PRL being magnanimous and wanted to expand the game.  this shows their actions do not match this rhetoric.

It could have cost Glasgow - Matwalo is a crucial player for them.  But they let him go anyway because its the right thing to do.  The prl refused to let any fijians play.  Its indicative of the attitude.  Only the PRL matters to the PRL

That's a weak argument, though, TJ. Well done Glasgow (though no threat of relegation or not qualfying for Europe makes it a different situation from that of most AP teams), but it's one isolated incident where "wanting to expand the game" would be actively detrimental to the teams' own interests, for little actual benefit to Fiji. That's very different from a strategic  commitment to help develop the game more widely.

It is indicative tho isn't it.  That could have been a fantasic celebration of fijian rugby but the PRL ruined it

No, it's not indicative, for the reasons I gave. And it's not reasonable to lay all the blame at the door of the PRL. An essentially amateur game was scheduled in conflict with competitive matches. They were put in a difficult position where they were being asked to do something they had no legal requirement to do and that would have set a potentially dangerous precedent (e.g. it might have made it easier for Wales to demand player release for their outside IRB window games).

I get that you are disappointed that Fiji weren't allowed to play at full strength. But it really has nothing to do with support of the wider game. Fiji would not have gained anything meaningful from having all their players available to play against a scratch Barbarians side in a game that means something only to die-hard rugby fans. You seem to be letting sentiment cloud your judgement.

mystiroakey wrote:

Massive falacy there SF-

The PL is the most exiting league out there.

Mystir.......... you'd be in the camp that wouldn't be impressed by the quality of Pro12, yes?  
You'd claim that AP is certainly Better?  
I'm not sure you'd go so far as saying AP quality is BEST in Europe though, you might be inclined to believe more well published propaganda that says Top14 is?  You can tell me which is which on that one.  

But I'd certainly assume you wouldn't have much hope for Pro12 in quality terms.  
Because?  It's small, it has less money, the crowds aren't big, TV isn't interested, many of the HEC Pro12 sides don't progress in the HEC competition?  All those reasons or some of them?  Yes?

So yes, if that's true, then your opinion on BEST is controlled by your emotions about large crowds, big sponsorship deals, big TV audiences, richest clubs etc - because it certainly wouldn't have much to do with the quality of rugby as it compares to that in either Top14 or AP.  

In quality of the game itself the Pro12 has its bad games for sure (just like AP and Top14) and then it has its classics when Provinces or Regions clash with an intensity that would certainly not be out of place at the highest levels of HEC.  And it's also the most successful (on the field) League in HEC terms for the last number of years.  And not all Top14 or AP HEC teams progress in that competition either (something many English people forget to remember when rubbishing the Scottish and Italians).

So - yes, I'd say your views on BEST are coloured by others things that don't always include the quality of the sport taking place on the field itself.

Thats exactly the point the PRL wouldn't do it because they didn't have to and were afraid of setting as precedent. A magnanimous gesture would have been nice. a lot of the fijians involved are only fringe players anyway. I believe some of them didn't even play for the clubs that weekend ( not sure tho)

Its not about letting sentiment cloud judgement. its about putting the wider interests of the game before your own narrow interests

TJ wrote:Mystri - you have repeatedly made assertions and refuse to back  them up with anything  I can only assume because you can't.

football ( less competitive teams / less opportunities for smaller nations teams)- the champions league used to be the cup winners cup with the winners of every nations cup entered.  then it became the champions league.  Over the years the big countries have increased the number of entrants they have and the smaller countries now have to go thru a qualifying round.  so the biggest get more, the smaller get less.  this is your blueprint for rugby.  Also since the premier league in England the international game has taken a back set to the club game

You assert that somehow that the PRLs expansion of their market for the game will led to increased numbers of people playing.  I would like you to explain how this can happen.  i would also like you to explain why the PRL proposals will not concentrate power and money into the hands of those who have it already leading to a situation like football

Can you - or is it all empty rhetoric

Its been explained 5 times.

more people that watch sport, more people will play sport.

What is it that you cannot understand?

" i would also like you to explain why the PRL proposals will not concentrate power and money into the hands of those who have it already leading to a situation like football"

why are you asking this question? I haven't denied that at all. Could you please refer me to a point i have made that makes you ask that question. But what i have said is that football Internationally is getting closer and closer - and one of the reasons for that is because the domestic leagues are so open.

Erm, Fly, I'd read it as Mystir was talking about the English Association Football Premier League, not rugby.

Personally, I have almost no time for football but the Premier League certainly attracts a lot of money and talent. I am not in any position to judge the quality of the football itself. I don't get it, regardless of which league is playing.

SecretFly wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

Massive falacy there SF-

The PL is the most exiting league out there.

Mystir.......... you'd be in the camp that wouldn't be impressed by the quality of Pro12, yes?  
You'd claim that AP is certainly Better?  
I'm not sure you'd go so far as saying AP quality is BEST in Europe though, you might be inclined to believe more well published propaganda that says Top14 is?  You can tell me which is which on that one.  

But I'd certainly assume you wouldn't have much hope for Pro12 in quality terms.  
Because?  It's small, it has less money, the crowds aren't big, TV isn't interested, many of the HEC Pro12 sides don't progress in the HEC competition?  All those reasons or some of them?  Yes?

So yes, if that's true, then your opinion on BEST is controlled by your emotions about large crowds, big sponsorship deals, big TV audiences, richest clubs etc - because it certainly wouldn't have much to do with the quality of rugby as it compares to that in either Top14 or AP.  

In quality of the game itself the Pro12 has its bad games for sure (just like AP and Top14) and then it has its classics when Provinces or Regions clash with an intensity that would certainly not be out of place at the highest levels of HEC.  And it's also the most successful (on the field) League in HEC terms for the last number of years.  And not all Top14 or AP HEC teams progress in that competition either (something many English people forget to remember when rubbishing the Scottish and Italians).

So - yes, I'd say your views on BEST are coloured by others things that don't always include the quality of the sport taking place on the field itself.

when have i claimed the AP is better?


I unlike others watch a lot of sport and I unlike others care about all sport, and i appreciate quality. I think you need to seriously look at your self for talking such nonsense and look at your own outlooks.

You only care when an irish rugby team wins a game.

Poorfour wrote:Erm, Fly, I'd read it as Mystir was talking about the English Association Football Premier League, not rugby.

Personally, I have almost no time for football but the Premier League certainly attracts a lot of money and talent. I am not in any position to judge the quality of the football itself. I don't get it, regardless of which league is playing.

Nope...we were discussing the concept of BEST and him accusing me of suggesting he only thinks of Money issues as being BEST. So I was getting to the reasons why I'd suggest that is probably so.

Its been explained 5 times.

more people that watch sport, more people will play sport.

this is an assertion not an explanation.  an explanation explains why one thing leads to another.

I'll give you a counter example

American football got a large european TV audience in the 80s / 90s the NFL tried a couple of times to set up a european league on the back of this. Failed fairly dismally. No UK american pro level football team left. Barely viable very limited contracting european league.

mystiroakey wrote:

when have i claimed the AP is better?


I unlike others watch a lot of sport and I unlike others care about all sport, and i appreciate quality. I think you need to seriously look at your self for talking such nonsense and look at your own outlooks.

You only care when an irish rugby team wins a game.

Meaning you don't want to deal with the BEST concept you yourself were happily discussing above through many posts.
You don't have an answer for me. Grand then. We'll leave it then. But if I see you discuss the concept again at any time in the future I'll repeat most of the above.

If you want to debate issues, debate them, don't evade them.

TJ wrote:

Its been explained 5 times.

more people that watch sport, more people will play sport.

this is an assertion not an explanation.  an explanation explains why one thing leads to another.

you just need to look at the correlation between viewing figures and participation. Its simple stats

SecretFly wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

when have i claimed the AP is better?


I unlike others watch a lot of sport and I unlike others care about all sport, and i appreciate quality. I think you need to seriously look at your self for talking such nonsense and look at your own outlooks.

You only care when an irish rugby team wins a game.

Meaning you don't want to deal with the BEST concept you yourself were happily discussing above through many posts.
You don't have an answer for me.  Grand then.  We'll leave it then.  But if I see you discuss the concept again at any time in the future I'll repeat most of the above.  

If you want to debate issues, debate them, don't evade them.

I am debating.

But you however are not/ I cant keep debating with you when you keep saying i have said certain things.

I have not once mentioned the AP,

you however are making stuff up and also now trying to say that i dont appreciate quality.

Nonsense, listen to your own advice.

mystiroakey wrote:

TJ wrote:

Its been explained 5 times.

more people that watch sport, more people will play sport.

this is an assertion not an explanation.  an explanation explains why one thing leads to another.

you just need to look at the correlation between viewing figures and participation. Its simple stats

Evidence - read my edited post above. Its clear you assert without anything to back it up - no reasoning or evidence. Shows the weakness of your position

"Nope...we were discussing the concept of BEST and him accusing me of suggesting he only thinks of Money issues as being BEST. So I was getting to the reasons why I'd suggest that is probably so."

what a load of fricking nonsense.

Come on then explain away.

You are clueless

 

TJ wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

TJ wrote:

Its been explained 5 times.

more people that watch sport, more people will play sport.

this is an assertion not an explanation.  an explanation explains why one thing leads to another.

you just need to look at the correlation between viewing figures and participation. Its simple stats

Evidence - read my edited post above.  Its clear you assert without anything to back it up - no reasoning or evidence.  Shows the weakness of your position

no TJ you need to prove your claim that the PL has limited professional teams?>

this all stems from your nonsense claim.

COME ON BACK IT UP!!

I did not claim that at all.  Mystri - you have been called on a number of dubious assertions, you clearly do not read anyones posts.  You are unable to back up anything you assert.  Busted flush

My comment from above which shows the fallacy of your assertion

tj wrote:I'll give you a counter example

American football got a large european TV audience in the 80s / 90s the NFL tried a couple of times to set up a european league on the back of this. Failed fairly dismally. No UK american pro level football team left. Barely viable very limited contracting european league.

TJ wrote:I did not claim that at all.  Mystri - you have been called on a number of dubious assertions, you clearly do not read anyones posts.  You are unable to back up anything you assert.

I have backed up everything.

You stated that the Premier league has limited the number of profession players

You posted it for everyone to read. Your problem is you cant even read your own posts

Come on back it up

If I stated that you can quote it. I didn't. angry at being caought out making assertions you cannot provide even a reasoned arguement to back?

I think its time you quoted all the stuff you are acussing me of posting,

The argument is so reasoned and so logical that its bordering on insanity that you cant understand it.

right - so please explain how this miracle could happen. You think African boys wearing sarcens Poopie and paying to watch AP matches will suddenly mean more pro players in african nations? I'd love to hear how this will work. It hasn't in football - indeed the opposite is true

but there you go - in black and white for everyone to read. Now COULD YOU QUOTE WHAT YOU HAVE ACCUSED ME OF POSTING THAT I HAVE told you i havent.

You are just a wum mate, not worth the time.

TJ wrote:Mystri - you have repeatedly made assertions and refuse to back  them up with anything  I can only assume because you can't.

football ( less competitive teams / less opportunities for smaller nations teams)- the champions league used to be the cup winners cup with the winners of every nations cup entered.  then it became the champions league.  Over the years the big countries have increased the number of entrants they have and the smaller countries now have to go thru a qualifying round.  so the biggest get more, the smaller get less.  this is your blueprint for rugby.  Also since the premier league in England the international game has taken a back set to the club game

You assert that somehow that the PRLs expansion of their market for the game will led to increased numbers of people playing.  I would like you to explain how this can happen.  i would also like you to explain why the PRL proposals will not concentrate power and money into the hands of those who have it already leading to a situation like football

Can you - or is it all empty rhetoric

this is the rationale behind not wanting to concentrate power and money into a small number of hands - look what happened in football.

You always try to befuddle the arguments in cloud and mist when things get tight in the reasoning department, Mystir.

If you look at my comment, they were actually questions and then yes, an assumption.
The question was, Do you regard AP as being Better than Pro12?
My assumption was that you most probably do. It's still my assumption.

Prove me wrong and tell me which you regard as the better spectacle?

Tough one I know as you probably don't get to actually see much Pro12.  

But again, even when you go back to football - you did make a claim that the PL is the Best in the World.  Yes?  

It's a sweeping statement that is either highly subjective or it needs proof if you actually believe it's true.  

And hadn't I opened my mouth and warned you in advance about how I'd attack you (discussion-wise) on it, you probably would have given me answers along the lines of income streams, rich owners, TV rights deals, world's top players, large crowds etc as some of your reasons for thinking so.

But all that is for you to explain and set me right on IF you want to debate your own ideas on BEST.  It's not productive to just keep telling me that you didn't say this and didn't mean that.

Tell me - tell me what you DO mean by the word BEST in sport terms - and if you want, use the PL one.

Or.............................. let's just drop it

TJ

football is great, its doing really well and many international teams are getting to high levels becauyse of the global reach of the game.

The problem is you see football as evil- I dont

SecretFly wrote:You always try to befuddle the arguments in cloud and mist when things get tight in the reasoning department, Mystir.

If you look at my comment, they were actually questions and then yes, an assumption.
The question was, Do you regard AP as being Better than Pro12?
My assumption was that you most probably do.  It's still my assumption.

Prove me wrong and tell me which you regard as the better spectacle?

Tough one I know as you probably don't get to actually see much Pro12.  

But again, even when you go back to football - you did make a claim that the PL is the Best in the World.  Yes?  

It's a sweeping statement that is either highly subjective or it needs proof if you actually believe it's true.  

And hadn't I opened my mouth and warned you in advance about how I'd attack you (discussion-wise) on it, you probably would have given me answers along the lines of income streams, rich owners, TV rights deals, world's top players, large crowds etc as some of your reasons for thinking so.

But all that is for you to explain and set me right on IF you want to debate your own ideas on BEST.  It's not productive to just keep telling me that you didn't say this and didn't mean that.

Tell me - tell me what you DO mean by the word BEST in sport terms - and if you want, use the PL one.

Or.............................. let's just drop it

i just said best at the time that is an opinion, but it is tagged as the most exiting league and it is also the most watched league ion the world.

Best is a funny word- I should have said in my and many others opinion

"the Premier league has limited the number of profession players" is not the same as you highlight above. subtle but differnt.

I am not a WUM - I am able to find huge holes in your argument and to show how its empty rhetoric. You are unable to back up anything you assert. Lose the arguement and get insulting, shout WUM and look silly
Look at dubbleyews posts in reply to mine as an example of backing up what you claim

game set match?

mystiroakey wrote:TJ

football is great, its doing really well and many international teams are getting to high levels becauyse of the global reach of the game.

The problem is you see football as evil- I dont

Two more assertions without anything to back them

So the fact its now much harder for the smaller teams to get into the champions league. the fact successive england football mangers bemoan the difficulty in getting acces to the players 'cos clubs come first means nothing?

No you have asserted that the PL has limited the amount of professionals

Can you please back up your assertion?

I have answered my assertion and it is 100% backed up, perhaps you have a problem with understanding the way sports gain popularity. and the relationship between viewing figures , global reach and participation.

but its all out there. You really should google it yourself- You clearly have a lot to learn

TJ wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:TJ

football is great, its doing really well and many international teams are getting to high levels becauyse of the global reach of the game.

The problem is you see football as evil- I dont

Two more assertions without anything to back them

So the fact its now much harder for the smaller teams to get into the champions league. the fact successive england football mangers bemoan the difficulty in getting acces to the players 'cos clubs come first means nothing?

So the world game is getting better at possibly the cost of big nations like england and you think thats bad!

The international game is closer than it ever has been-= the amount of quality teams are right up there is staggering.

The irony of your words are also staggering

And TJ can you please back up your assertions?

anyway i am out of this. Its not exactly fun is it.

Peace out , we wont agree

mystiroakey wrote:And TJ can you please back up your assertions?

Which ones? - You will find a couple of bits of reasoning for my positions - the american football one and the champions league one.

TJ sometimes I am not the best at explaining myself. I am dyslexic.

Although I admit my faults, I do believe you are misinterpreting a lot of what i say and are pretty close minded to what you feel is the best for rugby union.

And it wont all be doom and gloom if the money men get there way. There are a lot of pluses and a lot of negatives from both sides.

That is the last I am going to talk about on this subject today.

See you later

Mysrti - fair enough Thanks

I fundamentally disagree with you tho. Its not that I don't understand, I do understand your position. I simply disagree with it

Looks like Ian Richie wants the English clubs in the HEC next season.

maestegmafia wrote:Looks like Ian Richie wants the English clubs in the HEC next season.

Ritchie wants clubs from all unions in a competition, doesn't have to be the HEC
The PRL wants to keep its BT deal and for the unions (they're looking at you, FFR) not to be able to bollix up the commercial side of things
The FFR wants the HEC and thinks it's got it, albeit without the English (but it doesn't care about that, apparently)
The LNR wants its TV deal and thinks it's got it, and wants a European tournament with the Enlgish if possible
Various LNR club owners want something different but it's not clear what
The French reserve the right to change their minds at any time. Except about the TV deal
The WRU seemingly want to destroy the regions one way or another, and start again
RRW want enough money to keep going and think they might be able to get it in England (perhaps they have been speaking to George North)
The ERC wants to survive and doesn't seem to mindwhat faustian bargains it has to make to do so.

The thing is, we all want a european competition next season with everyone involved including the English clubs should they be dragged in kicking and screaming. It would never be the same without some of the classic rivalries that exist in the competition. The reforms have been agreed and everyone should take things on the chin and carry on for the good of the players, the fans and the wider rugby community.

Please, please lets all be friends

Pete330v2 wrote:The thing is, we all want a european competition next season with everyone involved including the English clubs should they be dragged in kicking and screaming. It would never be the same without some of the classic rivalries that exist in the competition. The reforms have been agreed and everyone should take things on the chin and carry on for the good of the players, the fans and the wider rugby community.

Please, please lets all be friends

The thing is, the English clubs can't do that unless there is a pathway to accommodating the BT deal, and won't do it unless the governance model gives the clubs commercial control (and stops the FFR sticking its oar in when it feels like it). The Welsh regions are probably now in a similar position and feel it even more strongly - except you have to substitute the WRU for the FFR.

The SRU and FIR are probably open to either a non ERC or an ERC-run competition as long as their revenue is protected. So at the moment it looks like the IRFU, FFR, WRU (and Sky) against the PRL, RRW (and BT) with the LNR's position unclear and the RFU trying to mediate. Not an easy situation at all.

Poorfour wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Looks like Ian Richie wants the English clubs in the HEC next season.

Ritchie wants clubs from all unions in a competition, doesn't have to be the HEC
The PRL wants to keep its BT deal and for the unions (they're looking at you, FFR) not to be able to bollix up the commercial side of things
The FFR wants the HEC and thinks it's got it, albeit without the English (but it doesn't care about that, apparently)
The LNR wants its TV deal and thinks it's got it, and wants a European tournament with the Enlgish if possible
Various LNR club owners want something different but it's not clear what
The French reserve the right to change their minds at any time. Except about the TV deal
The WRU seemingly want to destroy the regions one way or another, and start again
RRW want enough money to keep going and think they might be able to get it in England (perhaps they have been speaking to George North)
The ERC wants to survive and doesn't seem to mindwhat faustian bargains it has to make to do so.

and last, but possibly not least

IRB want all European rugby unified under FIRA-AER (or the French IRB chairman wants to shift control to the franco-centric FIRA-AER, notwithstanding the European "anglosphere" having 8 seats on the IRB council).

Poorfour wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:The thing is, we all want a european competition next season with everyone involved including the English clubs should they be dragged in kicking and screaming. It would never be the same without some of the classic rivalries that exist in the competition. The reforms have been agreed and everyone should take things on the chin and carry on for the good of the players, the fans and the wider rugby community.

Please, please lets all be friends

The thing is, the English clubs can't do that unless there is a pathway to accommodating the BT deal, and won't do it unless the governance model gives the clubs commercial control (and stops the FFR sticking its oar in when it feels like it). The Welsh regions are probably now in a similar position and feel it even more strongly - except you have to substitute the WRU for the FFR.

The SRU and FIR are probably open to either a non ERC or an ERC-run competition as long as their revenue is protected. So at the moment it looks like the IRFU, FFR, WRU (and Sky) against the PRL, RRW (and BT) with the LNR's position unclear and the RFU trying to mediate. Not an easy situation at all.

Poorfour, are you English?
If so what, as a rugby fan, do you want to see happening?
I'm just wondering as I've not followed this thread from start to finish.
Do English fans in general want the PRL's way?

Pete330v2 wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:The thing is, we all want a european competition next season with everyone involved including the English clubs should they be dragged in kicking and screaming. It would never be the same without some of the classic rivalries that exist in the competition. The reforms have been agreed and everyone should take things on the chin and carry on for the good of the players, the fans and the wider rugby community.

Please, please lets all be friends

The thing is, the English clubs can't do that unless there is a pathway to accommodating the BT deal, and won't do it unless the governance model gives the clubs commercial control (and stops the FFR sticking its oar in when it feels like it). The Welsh regions are probably now in a similar position and feel it even more strongly - except you have to substitute the WRU for the FFR.

The SRU and FIR are probably open to either a non ERC or an ERC-run competition as long as their revenue is protected. So at the moment it looks like the IRFU, FFR, WRU (and Sky) against the PRL, RRW (and BT) with the LNR's position unclear and the RFU trying to mediate. Not an easy situation at all.

Poorfour, are you English?
If so what, as a rugby fan, do you want to see happening?
I'm just wondering as I've not followed this thread from start to finish.
Do English fans in general want the PRL's way?

No, not all fans of English clubs support the PRL's position, Scotty

Glad to hear it Asbo, I would have thought we all want the same thing as fans, a great competition with rivalries, pulsating matches, upsets and a final that has no match in world sport IMHO where just about every club's fans are represented to some extent.

Pete330v2 wrote:Poorfour, are you English?
If so what, as a rugby fan, do you want to see happening?
I'm just wondering as I've not followed this thread from start to finish.
Do English fans in general want the PRL's way?

Not directed at me but I'll answer.

I think the English clubs should be able to leave if they aren't happy with the competition (as should anyone) as long as they follow the correct procedure.
I think any party should be free to set up whatever competition they like, as long as they have the relevant Unions' approval.
I think Unions should be free to make their own mind up about their (and their teams) participation in competitions.

I see no problem with the participants of a competition running the day-to-day within the framework specified by their unions. How much is delegated and under what conditions is up to the Unions.

My preferred solution would be to have something like the FIRA thing in overall control. And that goes for the 6 Nations too. That might be because England are in less danger of falling down the rankings because of player numbers, money, etc. but that's whay I think.

If the ERC winners, 6 Nations winners, want to claim the title 'Best in Europe' or 'European Champions' there HAS to be a process for anyone Europe getting in. It may just be a formality in the early days because the drop in standards is too great but it has to be there. Currently European rugby is effectively a closed shop.

And finally do I think Nigel Wray and Bruce Craig are gobby   ? Yes. Do I think the PRL stance in this is wrong? No.

Cheers Thunor, I do think good sense will see out and compromises will be agreed upon. It HAS to happen, we need a strong, meaningful and exciting competition that will be the heartbeat of european rugby for years to come. Bitter pills and all, as long as said bitter pills are equally shared out

HammerofThunor wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Poorfour, are you English?
If so what, as a rugby fan, do you want to see happening?
I'm just wondering as I've not followed this thread from start to finish.
Do English fans in general want the PRL's way?

Not directed at me but I'll answer.

I think the English clubs should be able to leave if they aren't happy with the competition (as should anyone) as long as they follow the correct procedure.
I think any party should be free to set up whatever competition they like, as long as they have the relevant Unions' approval.
I think Unions should be free to make their own mind up about their (and their teams) participation in competitions.

I see no problem with the participants of a competition running the day-to-day within the framework specified by their unions. How much is delegated and under what conditions is up to the Unions.

My preferred solution would be to have something like the FIRA thing in overall control. And that goes for the 6 Nations too. That might be because England are in less danger of falling down the rankings because of player numbers, money, etc. but that's whay I think.

If the ERC winners, 6 Nations winners, want to claim the title 'Best in Europe' or 'European Champions' there HAS to be a process for anyone Europe getting in. It may just be a formality in the early days because the drop in standards is too great but it has to be there. Currently European rugby is effectively a closed shop.

And finally do I think Nigel Wray and Bruce Craig are gobby   ? Yes. Do I think the PRL stance in this is wrong? No.

Thunor, agree with all of that, except for your final word which I'd change to 'Yes'

Sorry As. I might be a bit slow but the final word is 'No'.

My tuppence worth:

I'm not 100% behind PRL, but marginally more so than ERC (it's their conduct of Amlin that condemns them in my eyes).

I'm mostly supportive of the third way, FIRA-AER, at the moment. It's entirely logical that a single IRB body oversees all of European rugby, rather than 2 commercial bodies effectively running the professional international and club game. However, I'm nervous about its implementation, about which we have very little knowledge even to speculate on.

Apart from that, the Euromess is almost being sidelined by the threat that the wealth of French clubs may be offering.

Additionally, player welfare and club v country are two massive issues. A well-structured season would go a long way to resolving those, and would mitigate the apparent acrimony between Union and club that underlies the Euromess. Obtaining a distinct separation between a club season and the international season would allow each body to manage the players within each distinct season.