Arise, Sir Warren and mind your head.

by Scratch Mon 16 Dec 2013, 10:11 pm

So the glass ceiling of Welsh rugby has been set by Roger Lewis.

6 Nations dominance is all we can expect from our team. Gone is the principle that we can beat anyone on our day but never do, to be replaced with the proviso that 'we punch massively above our weight'. How we revel in being the underdog, how that psyche will hold us back.

I recently called for debate over Gatland's future and I stand by my position. That is why I am frankly staggered and disappointed by the hubristic announcement that he is now nailed on until 2019 with yet another option to take a holiday from his job and pursue the Lions.

I was skeptical about the first sabbatical, feeling it sent the wrong message about his commitment to Wales. One can only guess at the impact on Wales of his Lions venture but had Howley not saved the day it would have been clear that Gatland's break was a mistake. It is also abundantly clear the man's personal agenda, with the chummy complicity of Lewis, is being put above that of Welsh success; one interpretation is that if he does well for Wales, the steeping stone, then the real prize will naturally follow. Is Welsh rugby his vehicle to achieve personal ambitions?

To those who will rabidly defend him, I respect WG immensely for what he has achieved with Wales in the 6 Nations and the Lions. It is unprecedented in NH rugby since SCW. But I respect Welsh rugby much more and I think WG has failed repeatedly to capitalize on domestic success or indeed to even show he is capable of challenging the Big 3. 'Punching above our weight' is a great way of bracketing potential success in the future, by juxtaposing past success with the prospect of maintaining it in future what he is saying is, that will be my excuse when we don't kick on, that strength in depth held us back, we had too few players but didn't i do well with that tiny group. But he does not punch above his weight. He has mastered his weight class but jabs and misses time and again at the big boys.

Gatland's failure in World rugby is well documented, obvious and cannot be denied. No wonder he has done a Mr President on his NZ ambitions, the NZRFU would choke on their kiwis if he applied for the job now (one hopes they do this in the UK as the NZ Health service is over run with sheep related illnesses currently)

To give him carte blanche at this point - a 6 year commitment - is to give tacit approval to his Autumn record and confirms the principle that as long as the 6 Nations is in order, a Wales coach is untouchable.

So, Sir Warren, when you pick up your gong in January, don't punch above your weight and smash the glass ceiling.

by **Notch** Mon 16 Dec 2013, 10:41 pm

For me, this has shades of Eddie O'Sullivan getting a massive contract renewal before the 2011 RWC- cost the IRFU a bomb to get rid of him.

All coaches stagnate and run out of ideas eventually. Gatland arguably has begun to stagnate already. Most sides know what to expect from Wales and the best sides in world rugby have figured out how to beat them with a very high degree of consistency.

by Totallybiasedscarlet Mon 16 Dec 2013, 10:53 pm

To be fair Notch, he's been here before and surprised us with a change of tactics and done rather well (2011 RWC) I don't agree with the op though I've been highly critical of old rabbits in the head in the past (Pre-2011 RWC!)

I know we've had 1 win in 20-odd vs SH opposition but take a look at the margins. I remember the good old 80's/90's where we used to go and watch the likes of Australia teach us exactly what you're meant to do with an oval shaped ball whilst sticking 60-odd points on us (whatever happened to Ron Waldron). England were in a similar position at the end of the 90's. Dominant in the NH, good Lions tour behind them, consistently failed against the SH. We all know what happened next.

And yes we do punch above our weight. That doesn't mean we have to be defeatist. Just be proud of the achievements so far and kick on to the next. Gatland has expressed a lot of faith in these players and has not mentioned limits on what they could achieve - quite the opposite.

Look he ain't perfect but the op has his knickers in a twist over Gatland. He's entitled to his views but I think most Welsh fans are glad to hold on to Gatland whilst the game in Wales goes through one of the worst if not the worst crisis we've seen.

by LeinsterFan4life Mon 16 Dec 2013, 10:54 pm

Just so long as he doesn't get the lions job ever again I'm happy.

by Totallybiasedscarlet Mon 16 Dec 2013, 10:56 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Just so long as he doesn't get the lions job ever again I'm happy.

Crud, the thanks you get for coaching the Lions to victory eh?

by Scratch Mon 16 Dec 2013, 11:01 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Just so long as he doesn't get the lions job ever again I'm happy.

I agree but for different reasons, but he did Ireland's job for them by retiring a player who is past his best. thumbsup

by mr-bryns-attitude Mon 16 Dec 2013, 11:05 pm

when we heard the news on radio wales my work mate said,gatland and lewis are up to something! why would he commit another four years to the shambles that is welsh rugby?they have a plan noone is aware of, food for thought eh.

by Totallybiasedscarlet Mon 16 Dec 2013, 11:19 pm

mr-bryns-attitude wrote:when we heard the news on radio wales my work mate said,gatland and lewis are up to something! why would he commit another four years to the shambles that is welsh rugby?they have a plan noone is aware of, food for thought eh.

I think you're right there. This has all been coming a long time. It all smacks of being pre-arranged ... not just the Gatland contract announcement but the whole caboodle. I might be wrong - I don't even know if I want to be wrong - but I can't see the regions surviving. I think the WRU is turning the screw. I can't see where they are going to get enough money to be competitive unless the benefactors are going to suddenly produce vast amounts of money if we get an anglo-welsh league ... unlikely! Can anybody tell me how they can feasibly double their salary cap to £7m and at least have some semblance of being competitive? I can see the WRU creating new teams with central contracts, less teams with bigger budgets - that's financially feasible. I can see them insisting on lots of marketing. I can see them using stadia like the Liberty, CCS or even the MS. No problems finding somewhere to play! I'd bet my bottom shilling they'd be willing to start from scratch, but I can't figure how the current regions can survive much longer other than clinging on with a small playing budget, selling any player that establishes himself with Wales to the highest bidder ... a long slow death or taking up residence in mediocrity.

Lord save us!

by LeinsterFan4life Mon 16 Dec 2013, 11:24 pm

Scratch wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Just so long as he doesn't get the lions job ever again I'm happy.

I agree but for different reasons, but he did Ireland's job for them by retiring a player who is past his best.

The whole BOD thing has nothing to do with why I don't want Gatland to coach the lions ever again. It really is hilarious how whenever an Irishman has something bad to say about Gats, its because he dropped BOD.

by aucklandlaurie Mon 16 Dec 2013, 11:29 pm

I wish Gatty a merry Christmas and happy new year. a couple of weeks in the sun down at Waihi beach, and he'll return to Wales with fully charged batteries and ready to rip the 6N apart.

by Totallybiasedscarlet Mon 16 Dec 2013, 11:33 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
I wish Gatty a merry Christmas and happy new year. a couple of weeks in the sun down at Waihi beach, and he'll return to Wales with fully charged batteries and ready to rip the 6N apart.

As long as we beat the English! Yahoo

Ha ha, only joking ..... sort of Wink

by Toast Mon 16 Dec 2013, 11:36 pm

Shame Wales can't beat a proper team. The laughing stock of the SH.

by Totallybiasedscarlet Mon 16 Dec 2013, 11:38 pm

Toast wrote:Shame Wales can't beat a proper team. The laughing stock of the SH.

Are England not a proper team laughing

by mr-bryns-attitude Mon 16 Dec 2013, 11:44 pm

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
Toast wrote:Shame Wales can't beat a proper team. The laughing stock of the SH.

Are England not a proper team

you beat me to it scarlet,strange thing is we beat the teams who beat the SH teams? nothing is black and white in the crazy world of welsh rugby.

by GloriousEmpire Mon 16 Dec 2013, 11:59 pm

Mind your back, rather than head, I'd wager. If there's one thing that isn't tolerated up here; it's success.

by Scratch Tue 17 Dec 2013, 3:29 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Scratch wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Just so long as he doesn't get the lions job ever again I'm happy.

I agree but for different reasons, but he did Ireland's job for them by retiring a player who is past his best.
The whole BOD thing has nothing to do with why I don't want Gatland to coach the lions ever again. It really is hilarious how whenever an Irishman has something bad to say about Gats, its because he dropped BOD.

You are right, it's hilarious.

So, go on then, tell us why don't you want Gats to coach the Lions again?

by rainbow-warrior Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:38 am

Well done you Warran, ignore the dick heads . Well deserved for Wales. Well deserved for the Lion's too, just remember to pick BOD we need a good water boy:)

by majesticimperialman Tue 17 Dec 2013, 5:19 am

I could be wrong, but could they give Gatland a knight hood? Being a kIwi and not even being a resident of the British Isles.

I thought only NZ goverment could give a knight hood to a New Zealander.

by aucklandlaurie Tue 17 Dec 2013, 5:36 am

Wouldnt the Prince of Wales be able to give him a knighthood?

by kiakahaaotearoa Tue 17 Dec 2013, 6:06 am

I thought hoodies were banned in the UK...

by jimmyinthewell68 Tue 17 Dec 2013, 11:40 am

well for gats too sign another six year contact he obviously in the know about what's going to happen with our club sides .Im a little excited and scared at the same time

by Knowsit17 Tue 17 Dec 2013, 12:01 pm

Notch wrote:For me, this has shades of Eddie O'Sullivan getting a massive contract renewal before the 2011 RWC- cost the IRFU a bomb to get rid of him.

All coaches stagnate and run out of ideas eventually. Gatland arguably has begun to stagnate already. Most sides know what to expect from Wales and the best sides in world rugby have figured out how to beat them with a very high degree of consistency.

I agree it is a danger but in fairness to Gats he's been here about 6 years now and while he has overseen some stagnant periods there have also been resurgences during his time as Wales coach. To sketch it roughly, he had a very successful first year in charge with a GS and his only win to date over one of the big 3. This was followed by fairly mediocre campaigns through 2009 and 2010 during which time Wales looked in a worse position than we do now imo. Then... a very good showing at the WC followed by another GS. It may also be worth mentioning that the side Gatland inherited at the start of his tenure was different in nearly every position to that of today. He has shown an ability to engineer a measure of success with various groups and types of player.

All that said, his consistent failure and painfully limited approach to SH sides genuinely worry me. Wales' latest attempts have shown less intent or ambition to improve than ever in that respect. Imo it would be foolish to deny him credit as a good coach and to deny that he has taken Wales forward to some extent but, unless he (hopefully!) proves me wrong in the next couple of seasons, Gats seems to have reached the limit of his potential as Wales coach.

by **rodders** Tue 17 Dec 2013, 2:37 pm

I think Gats is a good coach and Wales have done well to nail him down. His boneheaded, uncompromising approach is perfect for the Welsh psyche, plus Shaun Edwards brings the brains to the operation.

He made a shambles of the Lions though, turning a fairly routine exercise into a skin of the pants 2-1 victory by being more focused on his own ego than the rugby. Thankfully Halfpenny, Corbiesero and Sexton got him over the line and saved his bacon.

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 17 Dec 2013, 3:14 pm

rodders wrote:I think Gats is a good coach and Wales have done well to nail him down. His boneheaded, uncompromising approach is perfect for the Welsh psyche, plus Shaun Edwards brings the brains to the operation.

He made a shambles of the Lions though, turning a fairly routine exercise into a skin of the pants 2-1 victory by being more focused on his own ego than the rugby. Thankfully Halfpenny, Corbiesero and Sexton got him over the line and saved his bacon.

This has become received wisdom now, hasn't it. When has a series win in Australia ever been a case of just turning up?

by **rodders** Tue 17 Dec 2013, 3:23 pm

When the bookies odds make the touring side unbackable for a 3-0 whitewash.

by GunsGerms Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:01 pm

rodders wrote:I think Gats is a good coach and Wales have done well to nail him down. His boneheaded, uncompromising approach is perfect for the Welsh psyche, plus Shaun Edwards brings the brains to the operation.

He made a shambles of the Lions though, turning a fairly routine exercise into a skin of the pants 2-1 victory by being more focused on his own ego than the rugby. Thankfully Halfpenny, Corbiesero and Sexton got him over the line and saved his bacon.

Yes he really did make hard work of the Lions tour against a hopeless Australia team. Hopefully he wont be the next Lions coach. Shouldnt ever be a national coach anyway for obvious reasons.

Giving any coach a six year ticket is a daft idea for lots of reasons even if he has been a great sucess for Wales. Just shows you how much he is worshiped there. Love the way the Welsh are so passionate about rugby but the fallout will be interesting when they realise that Gatland is not infallible.

by **rodders** Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:06 pm

What you mean when they realise?? Sure the whole country wanted him sacked just before the 2011 RWC!

What a difference a trip to Poland makes! It cost poor Eddie his job but has put Gats in line for a knighthood! king

by GunsGerms Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:09 pm

rodders wrote:What you mean when they realise?? Sure the whole country wanted him sacked just before the 2011 RWC!

What a difference a trip to Poland makes! It cost poor Eddie his job but has put Gats in line for a knighthood!

Exactly, a few losses and rugby fans can be quite fickle. Thats why you dont give a coach a lucrative 6 year deal. It doesnt make much sense. Particularly when Gatland isnt a particularly progressive coach. he has suceeded in getting to the level they should be at but will he be able to take them beyond?

by Knowsit17 Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:13 pm

Cut the generalisations boys, please. Not every Welshman "worships" Gatland and some are capable of having balanced opinions on him without being polarised to said worshipping or calling for his head. Whether in jest or not, it's rather insulting to be tarred with the same brush as some of the narrow-minded individuals who infest these boards.

by GunsGerms Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:16 pm

Knowsit17 wrote:Cut the generalisations boys, please. Not every Welshman "worships" Gatland and some are capable of having balanced opinions on him without being polarised to said worshipping or calling for his head. Whether in jest or not, it's rather insulting to be tarred with the same brush as some of the narrow-minded individuals who infest these boards.

So what do you think of him being offered a 6 year contract?

by Knowsit17 Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:17 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:Cut the generalisations boys, please. Not every Welshman "worships" Gatland and some are capable of having balanced opinions on him without being polarised to said worshipping or calling for his head. Whether in jest or not, it's rather insulting to be tarred with the same brush as some of the narrow-minded individuals who infest these boards.

So what do you think of him being offered a 6 year contract?

Please scroll up slightly and consult my earlier post if you wish to know.

by GunsGerms Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:18 pm

Knowsit17 wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:Cut the generalisations boys, please. Not every Welshman "worships" Gatland and some are capable of having balanced opinions on him without being polarised to said worshipping or calling for his head. Whether in jest or not, it's rather insulting to be tarred with the same brush as some of the narrow-minded individuals who infest these boards.

So what do you think of him being offered a 6 year contract?

Please scroll up slightly and consult my earlier post if you wish to know.

I did read it. You have said a lot of what you think about his tenure but didnt really comment on whether it is wise or not to offer him a six year contract.

No need to be a smart arse.

by Knowsit17 Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:27 pm

Who is being a smart arse? I'm not the one saying they think he's infallible in a way that makes it sound like a universal trait...

What more do you want me to say? I have admitted the six-year contract could be a danger without drawing any premature conclusions. I have given an account of what I think counts in his favour and what counts against him. I will certainly not go on to say with certainty how I think it'll end up as, to put it simply, I don't know. I would like to think I'm capable of admitting ignorance unlike some. There's certainly nothing conclusive to say it'll finish similarly to EOS or that it won't.

by Bullsbok Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:55 pm

The All Blacks ,Boks and Wallabies must be chuckling in their beers after hearing this. With Gatland at the helm they would rather lose to Italy than be the firsttri nations team to lose to Gatlands Wales.

by GloriousEmpire Tue 17 Dec 2013, 4:58 pm

Bullsbok wrote:...than be the firsttri nations team to lose to ~~Gatlands~~ Wales.

by GunsGerms Tue 17 Dec 2013, 5:00 pm

I think Australia have already lost to Wales a few years ago but their record against the SH isnt great alright.

by aucklandlaurie Tue 17 Dec 2013, 5:03 pm

neither is Ireland's..

by GunsGerms Tue 17 Dec 2013, 5:12 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
neither is Ireland's..

Completely irrelevant and off topic but actually its far superior to Wales'. God you are stupid. Three wins v SA and 3 and a draw v Australia in the last 10 years. Ireland have also been the team that has come closest to beating NZ twice in the last two years.

by **rodders** Tue 17 Dec 2013, 5:18 pm

In fairness England came pretty close to beating NZ....some people would even argue that they actually did.

by GunsGerms Tue 17 Dec 2013, 5:20 pm

rodders wrote:In fairness England came pretty close to beating NZ....some people would even argue that they actually did.

That doesnt count because the ABs have an excuse for that one remember.

by Scratch Tue 17 Dec 2013, 5:26 pm

It's amazing how many irish fans have jumped on the anti- Gatland -for- the- lions wagon on this thread….one wonders why?

Gatland's Lions record is superb, he is a winner. Not many coaches can say that.

I guess Irish fans would rather we had lost in Australia just as long as BOD played.

The bitterness is very sad. And the thread is not about Gatland's Lions record.

by Knowsit17 Tue 17 Dec 2013, 5:33 pm

It might make a nice change to actually address the objections in themselves rather than try and single out those making them. If you can that is.

All people do on here is treat each other like sheet

by GunsGerms Tue 17 Dec 2013, 5:33 pm

It shouldnt be a national coach full stop.

He won the series but made his fair share of errors in the process. There have been better lions coaches in my opinion.

by Scratch Tue 17 Dec 2013, 6:01 pm

Knowsit17 wrote:It might make a nice change to actually address the objections in themselves rather than try and single out those making them. If you can that is.

All people do on here is treat each other like sheet

Stop being so over sensitive

It's nothing worse than the vitriol directed at the coach of a winning Lions tour!

I have documented my objections to his 6 year contract extension and personally do not wish him to be a Lions coach while he is still Wales coach, but unlike some i can be objective and i applaud his magnificent achievement as Lions coach. It is a shame some so called rugby fans can't acknowledge that and have to take shots because a sacred cow was slaughtered.

by GunsGerms Tue 17 Dec 2013, 6:06 pm

Re: "sacred cow"

You do realise that it is predominantly Welsh fans/non-Irish fans that keep bringing up Drico in these Gatland threads? Its pretty pathetic to be honest.

by Scratch Tue 17 Dec 2013, 6:12 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
rodders wrote:I think Gats is a good coach and Wales have done well to nail him down. His boneheaded, uncompromising approach is perfect for the Welsh psyche, plus Shaun Edwards brings the brains to the operation.

He made a shambles of the Lions though, turning a fairly routine exercise into a skin of the pants 2-1 victory by being more focused on his own ego than the rugby. Thankfully Halfpenny, Corbiesero and Sexton got him over the line and saved his bacon.

Yes he really did make hard work of the Lions tour against a hopeless Australia team. Hopefully he wont be the next Lions coach. Shouldnt ever be a national coach anyway for obvious reasons.

Giving any coach a six year ticket is a daft idea for lots of reasons even if he has been a great sucess for Wales. Just shows you how much he is worshiped there. Love the way the Welsh are so passionate about rugby but the fallout will be interesting when they realise that Gatland is not infallible.

Yes, what's pathetic is that those bitter Irish fans won't admit it, they just all of a sudden hate a winning Lions coach! No harm down we all know the score, would just be refreshing if those fans that bitch about him could explain why instead of making stupid remarks like this one in bold.

by aucklandlaurie Tue 17 Dec 2013, 6:25 pm

GunsGerms wrote:Re: "sacred cow"

You do realise that it is predominantly Welsh fans/non-Irish fans that keep bringing up Drico in these Gatland threads? Its pretty pathetic to be honest.

Now let me think of the reasons for the Irish anti Gatland attitude;

1. He picks too many welsh players for the Lions tour.

2. Wales have such a terrible record against Australia.

3. He doesnt have a plan B.

4. He only knows how to coach gatlandball.

5. He's a Kiwi.

But absolutely definitelty categorically nothing to do with his non selection of O'Driscoll.

by LeinsterFan4life Tue 17 Dec 2013, 6:26 pm

The players deserve the credit for the Lions victory not Gatland imo. Just like Trap doesn't deserve any credit for getting Ireland to the Euro's

by Knowsit17 Tue 17 Dec 2013, 6:47 pm

Scratch wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:It might make a nice change to actually address the objections in themselves rather than try and single out those making them. If you can that is.

All people do on here is treat each other like sheet

Stop being so over sensitive

It's nothing worse than the vitriol directed at the coach of a winning Lions tour!

I have documented my objections to his 6 year contract extension and personally do not wish him to be a Lions coach while he is still Wales coach, but unlike some i can be objective and i applaud his magnificent achievement as Lions coach. It is a shame some so called rugby fans can't acknowledge that and have to take shots because a sacred cow was slaughtered.

Then why prolong it? Why not just leave it and let it die quietly rather than revive the tension by bringing it up so often?

Furthermore, how does the fact that it's no worse justify it? If I went out with a gun and started randomly shooting people in the street you could argue it's no worse than what Anders Breivik did, that wouldn't make it right!

In any case, I have heard few if any Irish supporters still harping on about the BOD dropping after all these months. Some might have initially but for the most part they seem to have gotten over it. I would advise you to follow suit if you want to generate discussion that doesn't inevitably get drawn into a slanging match. Just my opinion.

by tatterd Tue 17 Dec 2013, 6:52 pm

I personally think he has taken us as far as he can with his limited gameplan. Seems to me he has changed in his attitude a fair bit since the early days with Wales. Back then I recall him being painfully honest in post match interviews after mediocre performances, saying things like - "that was unacceptable, we were not good enough, in training I'm going to break a few of these boys so we improve etc.........Nowadays after a crap performance (and I'm thinking particularly of the last game v Aus), he seems to be competely unable to admit that performances are unacceptable, preferring to blame the referee or say we were unlucky etc. I would really prefer him to admit that we have a shedload of work to do before we can hope to compete with a top 3 team consistently and then get on with it in training. Sorting out the fecking set piece and teaching Mike Phillips to box kick for a start. Or dropping him obviously

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