New British and Irish Cup?

Getting this second hand from @chrisjharrison on twitter, who seems to be referencing an article by Stephen Jones (spit) in the Sunday Times which is of course behind their paywall.

He says that the English and Welsh teams (so presumably PRL and RRW as opposed to the Welsh and English Unions) are proposing a new British and Irish Cup on BT Sport to replace European rugby- all Premiership sides to participate, plus 10 provinces and regions from Ireland, Scotland and Wales giving the rather uneven and confusing number of 22 sides.

Can anyone shed more light on this? Understand Camou feels like he can take the French out of the equation unless he gets exactly what he wants regarding FIRA-AER, but why exclude the Italian sides? Also assume this competition is to run parallel with the leagues and not replace them?

Would be pretty disappointed. Be about the same number of teams as the Heineken Cup except we'd be replacing the likes of Clermont, Toulouse and Toulon with Worcester, Newcastle and London Irish. No disrespect to those teams but you're losing a lot of the glamour fixtures, a lot of the big games- and the teams facing relegation in the Premiership will always be more focused on that. Is it worth trying to holdout for a deal that brings the French back on board?

Interesting Notch. Stephen Jones hates the French, remember (just listen to any of his recent po-faced polemics on Scrum V roundtables or any Times podcasts), so having focused on slapping them on the head, he wouldn't have remembered that the Italians should be able to play too.

Let's assume that Treviso and Zebre play, so Wales and Scotland have 10 sides each (not that this seems fair to Italy, but let's just assume it for now). For Scotland, that would currently involve the two pro teams and the best amateur sides from the Scottish Premier Division (at the moment, that would be Ayr, Gala, Stirling County, Accies, Grammar, Melrose, Heriots and Currie).

The problem is (as the B&I Cup shows - with Accies, Stirling, Gala and Ayr sitting bottom of their tables) that the drop in standard between the pro teams and these amateur sides is absolutely enormous. Gala against Northampton would result in a cricket score.

I think what I'm saying is that this would only work if it was precededed by a complete restructing of each domestic league to award at least semi-pro contracts to these currently amateur clubs and try to redress the mahoosive disparity in supporting infrastructure, medical and back room staff and, well, everything else really. Otherwise, some of the matches would be farcical and it's difficult (even with a weighting of broadcast revenues to the amateur clubs) to see how this gap would ever be made up.

Suits the English system, but nobody's elses at the moment, I wouldn't think.

10 sides each?   I think Notch was talking about 10 Welsh/Scottish/Irish sides combined.

HammerofThunor wrote:10 sides each?   I think Notch was talking about 10 Welsh/Scottish/Irish sides combined.

Oh dear. Yes, that sounds much more like Stephen Jones.

Notch wrote:Getting this second hand from @chrisjharrison on twitter, who seems to be referencing an article by Stephen Jones (spit) in the Sunday Times which is of course behind their paywall.

He says that the English and Welsh teams (so presumably PRL and RRW as opposed to the Welsh and English Unions) are proposing a new British and Irish Cup on BT Sport to replace European rugby- all Premiership sides to participate, plus 10 provinces and regions from Ireland, Scotland and Wales giving the rather uneven and confusing number of 22 sides.

Can anyone shed more light on this? Understand Camou feels like he can take the French out of the equation unless he gets exactly what he wants regarding FIRA-AER, but why exclude the Italian sides? Also assume this competition is to run parallel with the leagues and not replace them?

Would be pretty disappointed. Be about the same number of teams as the Heineken Cup except we'd be replacing the likes of Clermont, Toulouse and Toulon with Worcester, Newcastle and London Irish. No disrespect to those teams but you're losing a lot of the glamour fixtures, a lot of the big games- and the teams facing relegation in the Premiership will always be more focused on that. Is it worth trying to holdout for a deal that brings the French back on board?

Same problems as before, I suspect. One, governance. If PRL / RRW are wanting a club-run tourney, the Unions won't accept it - else why not concede everything and have the RCC? Or if 6N run (excluding the French), why don't PRL / RRW back down on the HC?

And then there is the money. Does anyone seriously think this would be done on an equitable split?

Just more smoke and mirrors.

Define equitable. I would bet on equal split per team. Also the rumour is that the Pro12 unions were ok with the governance issues and it was the French who put the kibosh on it. This is effectively the RCC without the French, because the FFR are sticking their heels in because they want the FIRA to take over.

HammerofThunor wrote:Define equitable. I would bet on equal split per team.

What would be the problem with that?

I was hoping that this would be like an FA Cup of rugby. BT need a deal, or some form viable TV product, to get the English back into the H-Cup. I had hoped that it would be all the obvious teams, the Aviva and Pro 12 (without the Italians) but with the Welsh Premiership, English Championship and if you like the Scottish Prem. Obviously these teams would all play in round 1 and the top teams would enter.

I was hoping this would through up some big derbies, Pontypridd Vs Blues (irrespective of the result) and also offer a good TV product, especially the later rounds. The money could be given to the teams that progress the furthest, be a great incentive.

Irish Independent have done a rugby wish list. Here are some of them from prominent Irish people involved in rugby:

Billy Glynn
(Former president, IRFU)

The biggest and most immediate challenge for Irish rugby in 2014 is sorting out the Heineken Cup and the Rabo Direct. If the Heineken Cup goesthen  it will have an adverse effect on the Rabo, and if that happens then in three or four years' time you'll see the Six Nations start to suffer, first with Scotland and Italy going down, and then Wales and ourselves. The tragedy is that the English clubs have shown little interest in the future of the Six Nations."

Someone mustn't have told him that the PRL (who were not at the last Union meeting) say that the Heineken Cup is already dead in the water.

-----
Garrett Fitzgerald
(Chief executive, Munster)

I've four things on my wishlist for 2014. First is that Munster win some silverware to reflect all the hard work on and off the field, and for our supporters. Second is that the planning authorities sanction the new 3,000-seater stand in Musgrave Park, and the ancillary facilities that will go with that. It would replace the new structure already in place, which is temporary.

Third I'm hoping we can commence building in late summer on the new training centre for Munster Rugby in UL. The plan is in conjunction with UL who are making a significant investment and we will then lease it from them -- when it comes to fruition it will be a terrific asset.

Lastly, I'd urge the Government to reconsider developing the Cork-Limerick motorway which would reduce the travel time from 90 minutes to 50. Not only would be it make much easier access for supporters coming to Munster games, but it would be a significant boost for the economy in the province and would pay for itself over 10 to 20 years."

Apart from further expansion/development of Munster, Munster (& Ireland) seem to be able to convince players to hang around for a while because they have signed 5 contract extensions in the last month (3 on Friday).

Doesn't sound like a guy who is worried about not having a competition to play in next year!

----

Conor O'Shea wishlist was interesting as well: Conor O'Shea

(Head coach, Harlequins)

.........

"In Europe, I can't wait for the Clermont game on Saturday. They are such an outstanding all-round rugby team, and will be coming full-on. We'll meet them full-on as well so it should be a great game for the group, and hopefully just a great game anyway."

He obviously realises that quins will be playing some of the great european teams for a while!

doctor_grey wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Define equitable. I would bet on equal split per team.

What would be the problem with that?  

The problem is that the people issuing the invitation (PRL) to join this competition a couple of months ago were threatening us with oblivion if we didn't join their little Cup.

We'd be mad to jump into bed with that shower.

doctor_grey wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Define equitable. I would bet on equal split per team.

What would be the problem with that?  

That would be equitable by my definition.

It certainly won't be as attractive without the French, and the Celtic unions should try to get the Italians involved - if nothing else the money from this would go towards paying their access fees to the Celtic League.

Sin é wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Define equitable. I would bet on equal split per team.

What would be the problem with that?  

The problem is that the people issuing the invitation (PRL) to join this competition a couple of months ago were threatening us with oblivion if we didn't join their little Cup.

We'd be mad to jump into bed with that shower.

Agreed. But at least going in to a deal with full awareness that there is no community of interest on the part of your partners allows you to plan accordingly.

And is it better to have a flawed competition than no competition at all?

Sin é wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Define equitable. I would bet on equal split per team.

What would be the problem with that?  

The problem is that the people issuing the invitation (PRL) to join this competition a couple of months ago were threatening us with oblivion if we didn't join their little Cup.

We'd be mad to jump into bed with that shower.

Didn't you just quote an IRFU officials who said that without a European cup in a few years the Italians and Scottish, then Welsh and Irish would collapse as internal teams? Sounds like oblivion to me.

How the feic have we got to this stage, with fag packet sketches of what the entire sport's landscape will look like being pinged around like confetti? I hope that this new WRU deal (whatever it is) is well considered because this nonsense is hurting absolutely everybody.

The Italian RU has already made noises that it's costing them more to bankroll Zebre than it's getting for having two teams entered in the Rabo in the first place. They start every season from the red. I genuinely think the first thing which could happen will be for those two teams to fall away and for the Italian Premier league to be the main focus of their development with any Italian players in other other European leagues being considered a bonus.

Maybe Italy should just concentrate on Treviso for now and put all their resources into them? Then in a few years time if Treviso get some good success and bigger crowds look into the possibility of creating a second team again.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sin é wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Define equitable. I would bet on equal split per team.

What would be the problem with that?  

The problem is that the people issuing the invitation (PRL) to join this competition a couple of months ago were threatening us with oblivion if we didn't join their little Cup.

We'd be mad to jump into bed with that shower.

Didn't you just quote an IRFU officials who said that without a European cup in  a few years the Italians and Scottish, then Welsh and Irish would collapse as internal teams? Sounds like oblivion to me.

Yes. Wray & Co. have done everything to destabilise northern hemisphere rugby by trying to entice teams from our competitions (Wray was suggesting that the Welsh leave the Rabo last September), to attempting to pull the French out of the Heineken Cup (got their come uppence there).

My point is that I'd prefer no rugby to having anything to do with that crowd of shysters as inevitably they would find a way to stop us being competitive - whether that would be more of 'our population is bigger than your population so we deserve more money' to you have to play such and such a player in every game to attract a big gate for the English clubs, to dumping the Scots and the Italians because they won't sell out twickers or something.

George Carlin wrote:How the feic have we got to this stage, with fag packet sketches of what the entire sport's landscape will look like being pinged around like confetti? I hope that this new WRU deal (whatever it is) is well considered because this nonsense is hurting absolutely everybody.

The Italian RU has already made noises that it's costing them more to bankroll Zebre than it's getting for having two teams entered in the Rabo in the first place. They start every season from the red. I genuinely think the first thing which could happen will be for those two teams to fall away and for the Italian Premier league to be the main focus of their development with any Italian players in other other European leagues being considered a bonus.

The Italians have only been in the PRO 12 since 2010 and have noticeably improved internationally. They are now getting 70K to their 6 Nations games, so if Ireland can support 4 provinces on that, the Italian RU should be able to manage 2.

Anyway, its their 3m entrance fee they don't want to pay as they brought nothing to the table (understandably) like broadcasting revenue. That has changed now (start of this season), so they now adding to the Pro12 pot and that is what the Italians want to renegotiate.

So you would rather rugby oblivion rather than play with those that point out you would face rugby oblivion?

I'm sorry but haven't here been complaints that the French out out weak teams in the HEC? I remember a lot of bitching about Quins resting Care and Easter against Blues a few years ago. I think you'll find that agreeing to put out your strongest side, allowing for reasonable resting, is pretty standard in most competitions.

As for your final straw man, really good point.

HammerofThunor wrote:So you would rather rugby oblivion rather than play with those that point out you would face rugby oblivion?

I'm sorry but haven't here been complaints that the French out out weak teams in the HEC? I remember a lot of bitching about Quins resting Care and Easter against Blues a few years ago. I think you'll find that agreeing to put out your strongest side, allowing for reasonable resting, is pretty standard in most competitions.

As for your final straw man, really good point.

I'd rather have rugby oblivion than have anything to do with those who caused that rugby oblivion in the first place.

There is lots of stuff that could be done to fill the void that wouldn't involve getting into bed with those snakeskin oil salesmen.

HammerofThunor wrote:10 sides each?   I think Notch was talking about 10 Welsh/Scottish/Irish sides combined.

Yes, 10 sides from those three countries- i.e the four Welsh regions, the four Irish provinces, Edinburgh and Glasgow!

As HoT was saying apparently before this the only obstacle now to a new competition is the FFR. They want this chance to turn over rugby to the FIRA-AER.

FYI, here is Stephen Jones's article (in full)

THE bitter disputes crippling European rugby have taken another turn as the top English and Welsh clubs begin planning the formation of a British & Irish Cup, which they hope to launch in October. All 12 English Premiership clubs together with the 10 regions and provinces from Ireland, Scotland and Wales would be invited to participate.

The event is meant to fill the void left by the likely absence next season of a pan-European tournament, since the existing Heineken Cup and the mooted Rugby Champions Cup, a rival event created by the English and French clubs, look doomed. Last week, a statement by the Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) terminated its relationship with the regions as of June, throwing the existence of Cardiff Blues, Ospreys, Scarlets and Newport-Gwent Dragons into serious doubt.

Peter Thomas, the chairman of Cardiff Blues, who has been involved in the Anglo-Welsh plans, said of the new venture. “It is something for our club, our followers and our sponsors, something of real value.” The event would be broadcast by BT Sport, with whom the Aviva Premiership already has a major deal.

If consent from the respective unions is not forthcoming, as is required, the English and Welsh clubs will strike out on their own with an Anglo-Welsh League which would add the four Welsh regions to the 12 Premiership teams.

The bad news in Wales continues with Leigh Halfpenny set to sign for Toulon. The Sunday Times understands that Halfpenny and Sam Warburton, the Wales captain, were ready to turn down lucrative contracts in France — provided there was a decent increase on their deals in Wales. However, confusion between the Union and the clubs over the details of an offer from the WRU to supply £1m to help keep the players saw Halfpenny depart and leaves Warburton in limbo.

I agree the PRL can't be trusted to act in the best interests of rugby and I'd love it if there was some way we could provide top-class competition for our teams without having to deal with them, but realistically playing the best English clubs is beneficial to us, as is competing in the best tournaments and its the same for them regarding us.

Both simply have to find some common ground, there's really no other options. The IRFU and SRU would be better off to accept this British and Irish Cup deal which will ensure the regions remain in the Pro12 and makes a new PA between Regional Rugby Wales and the Welsh Rugby Union significantly more likely to happen.

If we reject it the regions will go to court to try and get out from under the WRU and the Pro12 will be dragged through the mud and severely weakened. Make a deal now, clear up the uncertainty and we've a better chance of landing a decent sponsor for the Pro12 next season.

Top English, and Welsh clubs? Should that read as PRL, and RRW? Isn't the proposed B&I Cup really just another name for this RCC?

The games people play.... I'm against it.

Munchkin wrote:Top English, and Welsh clubs? Should that read as PRL, and RRW? Isn't the proposed B&I Cup really just another name for this RCC?

Yes and yes.

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sin é wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Define equitable. I would bet on equal split per team.

What would be the problem with that?  

The problem is that the people issuing the invitation (PRL) to join this competition a couple of months ago were threatening us with oblivion if we didn't join their little Cup.

We'd be mad to jump into bed with that shower.

Didn't you just quote an IRFU officials who said that without a European cup in  a few years the Italians and Scottish, then Welsh and Irish would collapse as internal teams? Sounds like oblivion to me.

Yes. Wray & Co. have done everything to destabilise northern hemisphere rugby by trying to entice teams from our competitions (Wray was suggesting that the Welsh leave the Rabo last September), to attempting to pull the French out of the Heineken Cup (got their come uppence there).

My point is that I'd prefer no rugby to having anything to do with that crowd of shysters as inevitably they would find a way to stop us being competitive - whether that would be more of 'our population is bigger than your population so we deserve more money' to you have to play such and such a player in every game to attract a big gate for the English clubs, to dumping the Scots and the Italians because they won't sell out twickers or something.

I thought the English and French clubs request was for the same money per team. I am not aware of any demand that English teams get more.

When did the English suggest dumping the Scots or Italians? I thought the English wanted qualification for all so Scottish teams would have to qualify just like the English teams.

As for English teams getting their come-uppence from the French, I thought it now seems unlikely that French will be in HC this year.

As for PRL trying to stop you being competitive. If you are not competitive when you have the same qualifying system and revenue share as your opponents then so be it.

Why are the French so keen on FIRA-AER governing a European Cup, to the point where they won't play otherwise?

Exiledinborders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sin é wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Define equitable. I would bet on equal split per team.

What would be the problem with that?  

The problem is that the people issuing the invitation (PRL) to join this competition a couple of months ago were threatening us with oblivion if we didn't join their little Cup.

We'd be mad to jump into bed with that shower.

Didn't you just quote an IRFU officials who said that without a European cup in  a few years the Italians and Scottish, then Welsh and Irish would collapse as internal teams? Sounds like oblivion to me.

Yes. Wray & Co. have done everything to destabilise northern hemisphere rugby by trying to entice teams from our competitions (Wray was suggesting that the Welsh leave the Rabo last September), to attempting to pull the French out of the Heineken Cup (got their come uppence there).

My point is that I'd prefer no rugby to having anything to do with that crowd of shysters as inevitably they would find a way to stop us being competitive - whether that would be more of 'our population is bigger than your population so we deserve more money' to you have to play such and such a player in every game to attract a big gate for the English clubs, to dumping the Scots and the Italians because they won't sell out twickers or something.

I thought the English and French clubs request was for the same money per team. I am not aware of any demand that English teams get more.

When did the English suggest dumping the Scots or Italians? I thought the English wanted qualification for all so Scottish teams would have to qualify just like the English teams.

As for English teams getting their come-uppence from the French, I thought it now seems unlikely that French will be in HC this year.

As for PRL trying to stop you being competitive. If you are not competitive when you have the same qualifying system and revenue share as your opponents then so be it.

The Celts and the Italians agreed to the PRL & LNR requests for changes. But then we were told by the PRL that it was too late which illustrates perfectly my point. The PRL will never be satisfied - there will always be something else that they want.

There has been no mention of what is to happen to the Italians in this new B+I Cup. The PRL & WRR have just forgotten about them.

Whatever about the LNR not caring about playing in a European Cup, the FFR need them to so that their international team gets experience of Cup Rugby. The French were never involved in the Heineken Cup for the money - lets not forget that they were involved in the Heineken Cup right from the beginning when there was no money in it and when the English clubs stayed out.

French rugby may have a lot of money, but its worth nothing what Ronan O'Gara has to say about it in his column in the Examiner.ie:

In France, the Top 14 is an incredibly difficult league, but the standard of rugby is very average. It’s a slog, it’s combat every week, 28 games excluding Europe. You’re going out on soft pitches against big packs every week. It’s attrition. Whatever coach can devise a phase game in France will be the best coach. Everything is occupation, ie field position.

The contrast with Ireland is stark. Heaslip and O’Brien will know they get exceptionally well looked after in the IRFU player welfare programme. For that the Union deserve a lot of credit. If anything, you occasionally are under played in Ireland where in France the problem will always be overplayed. I always found with Munster and with Ireland the players were treated like people first. That’s nice compared to being another number on a team-sheet.

Not great preparation for a world cup for France, is it?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/ronan-ogara/ronan-ogara-ronan-ogara-someone-will-always-fill-your-shoes-254172.html

Notch wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Top English, and Welsh clubs? Should that read as PRL, and RRW? Isn't the proposed B&I Cup really just another name for this RCC?

Yes and yes.

So why would the Unions agree to a Cup they have already rejected? Not just the Unions, but the IRB.

The regions will not be joining a 16 team AP any time soon, and certainly not next season. ESPN:



"Championship chairman Geoff Irvine has said the English game 'would go beserk' if the Premiership's mooted 16-team Anglo-Welsh league came into being.

The Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) has been given a new deadline of January 31 by the regions to agree a new participation agreement before they pursue 'other options' - widely interpreted to mean agreeing to merge with the Premiership. Plans for a 16-team league appear to be at an advanced stage, with Welsh sources suggesting a deal would guarantee three of the four regions immunity from relegation.

The proposals have angered England's second tier clubs, who feel they should be granted first refusal in the event of any Premiership expansion. And Irvine has made his feelings perfectly clear on what he feels are 'scandalous' plans, though he admits he doubts the expanded league will become a reality.

"I really cannot see the RFU admitting four Welsh clubs - the English game would go beserk," Irvine told The Rugby Paper.

"What's the point? The whole system that we've developed over English-qualified players seems to be working well. As for agreeing to give Welsh clubs immunity from relegation, they simply can't do that. The regulations over promotion and relegation are governed by the RFU, not Premiership Rugby, and they can't just make the rules up as they go along.

"It's scandalous, but it's just typical of the way this game is at the moment. We [the Championship] ask Premiership Rugby every year if they want to go to 14 teams and every year they tell us they don't. But now all of a sudden, because they're in the mire over Europe, they're talking about going to 16. It's nonsense."

'WalesOnline' provides an interesting insight into what the clubs think of the regions, including the issue of central contracting. These clubs connected to the regions do not support the regions.

doctor_grey wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Define equitable. I would bet on equal split per team.

What would be the problem with that?  

Except it wouldn't be equal as the PRL reputedly have a far more lucrative separate agreement with BT if they deliver the competition. Presumably the competition pot would be divided equally though?

That's assuming that the league part of the deal is dependent on the Euro league (which is based on anonymous posts).

Otherwise what you're saying that because the English league TV rights are worth more than the Pro12 TV rights these teams should get more from Europe.

It's all hearsay because PRL are keeping the details of their deal a closely guarded secret.

That's the thing, how can we just trust them. BT may well see the cross border comp as far more valuable, but the PRL will take a huge amount of the cash for their league. For all the talk of the Rabo's "taking out" more than they "put in", the PRL may be trying to cheat other nations out of euro money they should be entitled to. But we just don't know. Why can't everyone just be more open and transparent?

I agree with Sin e on his opinion of the PRL and their carry on. But I don't agree that I'd rather play without them. While the unions were right to resist a club takeover, the reality is that we Irish need the clubs more than they need us (as they well know). The IRFU are trying to steer Irish rugby through very rough waters, but the one thing they will NOT do is commit hari kari end up with no competition. Apparently they were willing, probably reluctantly, to go with the RCC but the French were opposed over governance. The IRFU will look seriously at this competition if it is the only thing on offer. Especially since it may also keep the Welsh in the PRO12.

It'll be a pale shadow of the HC though.

Feckless Rogue wrote:That's the thing, how can we just trust them. BT may well see the cross border comp as far more valuable, but the PRL will take a huge amount of the cash for their league. For all the talk of the Rabo's "taking out" more than they "put in", the PRL may be trying to cheat other nations out of euro money they should be entitled to. But we just don't know. Why can't everyone just be more open and transparent?

I agree with Sin e on his opinion of the PRL and their carry on. But I don't agree that I'd rather play without them. While the unions were right to resist a club takeover, the reality is that we Irish need the clubs more than they need us (as they well know). The IRFU are trying to steer Irish rugby through very rough waters, but the one thing they will NOT do is commit hari kari end up with no competition. Apparently they were willing, probably reluctantly, to go with the RCC but the French were opposed over governance. The IRFU will look seriously at this competition if it is the only thing on offer. Especially since it may also keep the Welsh in the PRO12.

It'll be a pale shadow of the HC though.

The Welsh have no choice, but to remain in Rabo. The Unions never agreed to RCC. That was media spin on the 5 Unions agreement.

Notch wrote:It's all hearsay because PRL are keeping the details of their deal a closely guarded secret.

I thought your man Browne said he had seen the details of the PRL deal.

wayne wrote:

Notch wrote:It's all hearsay because PRL are keeping the details of their deal a closely guarded secret.

I thought your man Browne said he had seen the details of the PRL deal.

No, he said he knew how much money it would raise (which makes sense). But they want to see the whole deal to see if there is anything in there they can use to put pressure on the English clubs to remain in a competition they don't want to be in to financial benefit his union.

  

wayne wrote:

Notch wrote:It's all hearsay because PRL are keeping the details of their deal a closely guarded secret.

I thought your man Browne said he had seen the details of the PRL deal.

No, he hasn't. Ian Richie is the only Union person I believe to have seen the BT offer and apparently he is keeping that detail to himself. It was (I think) Paul Goze (LNR) who leaked the information about the contents of the deal.

Sin é wrote:

wayne wrote:

Notch wrote:It's all hearsay because PRL are keeping the details of their deal a closely guarded secret.

I thought your man Browne said he had seen the details of the PRL deal.

No, he hasn't. Ian Richie is the only Union person I believe to have seen the BT offer and apparently he is keeping that detail to himself. It was (I think) Paul Goze (LNR) who leaked the information about the contents of the deal.

Keep digging your hole is getting deeper

Feckless Rogue wrote: While the unions were right to resist a club takeover, the reality is that we Irish need the clubs more than they need us (as they well know).

I don't agree. Financially, the IRFU could keep the show on the road for a few years with income from the international game. I think the IRFU would succeed where the PRL are failing to set up another league with some SH teams. If you are looking for meaningful competition, there are about 4 teams in the Aviva Premership that would give you a decent game (Leicester, Northampton, Saracens & Exeter). Here is a couple of things we could do.

Tour of SH clubs. Irish provinces have great contacts in Australia & NZ (Cheika Waratahs, Laurie Fisher Brumbies, McGahan Rebels, Penney ex-Canterbury/Crusaders, Lam, Anscombe & Schmidt/Blues. Spend 2 months down there every year. Get them to come up on alternative years as well. That would be 6/7 meaningful games every year who play a better standard of rugby than the Aviva Premiership. Those teams touring would draw big crowds as well (in Ireland - Aviva).

Get the Provinces to play some of the emerging nations like Georgia, Romania, USA & Canada etc. Good for them and good for our emerging players.

(as an aside, I'd say the IRFU have their finger on the political pulse of rugby. Ireland was the only 6 Nations country to send a team to the FIRA organised Tblisi Cup last summer (Lapasset's pet project). As far as I know I think Ireland are playing Romania in the autumn internationals as well. The IRFU will be well in the good books of FIRA if they take over the running of the Heineken Cup/Six Nations.)

Sin é wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote: While the unions were right to resist a club takeover, the reality is that we Irish need the clubs more than they need us (as they well know).

I don't agree. Financially, the IRFU could keep the show on the road for a few years with income from the international game. I think the IRFU would succeed where the PRL are failing to set up another league with some SH teams. If you are looking for meaningful competition, there are about 4 teams in the Aviva Premership that would give you a decent game (Leicester, Northampton, Saracens & Exeter). Here is a couple of things we could do.

Tour of SH clubs.  Irish provinces have great contacts in Australia & NZ (Cheika Waratahs, Laurie Fisher Brumbies, McGahan Rebels, Penney ex-Canterbury/Crusaders, Lam, Anscombe & Schmidt/Blues. Spend 2 months down there every year. Get them to come up on alternative years as well. That would be 6/7 meaningful games every year who play a better standard of rugby than the Aviva Premiership. Those teams touring would draw big crowds as well (in Ireland - Aviva).

Get the Provinces to play some of the emerging nations like Georgia, Romania, USA & Canada etc. Good for them and good for our emerging players.

(as an aside, I'd say the IRFU have their finger on the political pulse of rugby. Ireland was the only 6 Nations country to send a team to the FIRA organised Tblisi Cup last summer (Lapasset's pet project). As far as I know I think Ireland are playing Romania in the autumn internationals as well. The IRFU will be well in the good books of FIRA if they take over the running of the Heineken Cup/Six Nations.)

Are you sure it's not Georgia that we are playing?

wayne wrote:

Sin é wrote:

wayne wrote:

Notch wrote:It's all hearsay because PRL are keeping the details of their deal a closely guarded secret.

I thought your man Browne said he had seen the details of the PRL deal.

No, he hasn't. Ian Richie is the only Union person I believe to have seen the BT offer and apparently he is keeping that detail to himself. It was (I think) Paul Goze (LNR) who leaked the information about the contents of the deal.

Keep digging your hole is getting deeper

Quote from Derek McGrath, ERC CEO:

derek mcgrath wrote:“The alternative is to start up a new competition based on the BT contract. It’s been said that this completion could generate £60 to £70 million. But the only bit known about that package is the BT element which would only make up £20 million, odd. No one has seen that contract so no one knows what it represents. And where’s the other £50 million coming from? Any French TV deal by law would have to have approval of the FFR (French Federation Rugby) and they say they won’t be. So it’s hardly achievable, from a business point of view, and yet this is supposed to be a better business model.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote: While the unions were right to resist a club takeover, the reality is that we Irish need the clubs more than they need us (as they well know).

I don't agree. Financially, the IRFU could keep the show on the road for a few years with income from the international game. I think the IRFU would succeed where the PRL are failing to set up another league with some SH teams. If you are looking for meaningful competition, there are about 4 teams in the Aviva Premership that would give you a decent game (Leicester, Northampton, Saracens & Exeter). Here is a couple of things we could do.

Tour of SH clubs.  Irish provinces have great contacts in Australia & NZ (Cheika Waratahs, Laurie Fisher Brumbies, McGahan Rebels, Penney ex-Canterbury/Crusaders, Lam, Anscombe & Schmidt/Blues. Spend 2 months down there every year. Get them to come up on alternative years as well. That would be 6/7 meaningful games every year who play a better standard of rugby than the Aviva Premiership. Those teams touring would draw big crowds as well (in Ireland - Aviva).

Get the Provinces to play some of the emerging nations like Georgia, Romania, USA & Canada etc. Good for them and good for our emerging players.

(as an aside, I'd say the IRFU have their finger on the political pulse of rugby. Ireland was the only 6 Nations country to send a team to the FIRA organised Tblisi Cup last summer (Lapasset's pet project). As far as I know I think Ireland are playing Romania in the autumn internationals as well. The IRFU will be well in the good books of FIRA if they take over the running of the Heineken Cup/Six Nations.)

Are you sure it's not Georgia that we are playing?

I thought it was Romania - anyway, its one of the FIRA Emerging nations (rather than one of the usual suspects).

The Irish provinces touring the southern hemisphere? I think that's pie in the sky stuff. If it happened, great but it won't. We're one small nation with four teams. And without competition against Europe's top teams, our players will follow the French club money. The Welsh teams to the AP seems pretty pie in the sky too mind you.

But it is shocking the PRL are willing to do it on a whim, enraging the English clubs below the AP, leaving the WRU with an obligation to enter teams in the rabo but having no teams, leaving the Scots, Irish and Italians with serious problems and the future of the rabo in doubt. But it shows they seem willing to take down the PRO12 as well as the HC if they don't get their way.

Maybe I'm just not as up for putting up a fight as you Sin. I'm a gentle soul. I just want a resolution and a European Cup.

The PRL seemed to think it was a runner with SA! The Crusaders turned up for one game in London (after the earthquake). There are 1000s of Irish in NZ & Aus at the moment. Australia is definitely a runner as they don't have an ITM/Currie Cup competition. The Brumbies came up to London for a PRL Rugby 7s (which they won) last summer. List of the teams that came for it are here.  http://www.worldclub7srugby.com/teams.php

It also suits that the IRB are looking into to having the two hemisphere seasons coincide.

edit: I also think the French (as in FRR - Camou & Lapassat) want some sort of European Cup competition if they want to do well internationally (Six Nations, World Cup). Just look at Clermont and how poor they are in Cup competition with the amount of talent they have at their disposal.

This is simply another divide and conquer attempt by the prl and more hopeless thrashing around attempting to get themselves out of the hole they have put themselves in.

What will actually happen is a reconstituted european cup based on the 5 n proposals to which the english clubs are invited. The pro 12 will continue as it is, there will not be an expanded aviva with the welsh clubs. the PRL will remain isolated with only the RWW giving them any support at all. the welsh unions will not allow the welsh teams to avoid their obligations.

  Feckless good post

TJ wrote:This is simply another divide and conquer attempt by the prl and more hopeless thrashing around attempting to get themselves out of the hole they have put themselves in.

What will actually happen is a reconstituted european cup based on the 5 n proposals to which the english clubs are invited.  The pro 12 will continue as it is, there will not be an expanded aviva with the welsh clubs.  the PRL will remain isolated with only the RWW giving them any support at all. the welsh unions will not allow the welsh teams to avoid their obligations.

good. That way we can pretend our teams are good and the only reason England fail is because of conservative and unimaginative coaching. Win win

TJ surely this is the perfect smiley to sum you up:       

Sin é wrote:

wayne wrote:

Sin é wrote:

wayne wrote:

Notch wrote:It's all hearsay because PRL are keeping the details of their deal a closely guarded secret.

I thought your man Browne said he had seen the details of the PRL deal.

No, he hasn't. Ian Richie is the only Union person I believe to have seen the BT offer and apparently he is keeping that detail to himself. It was (I think) Paul Goze (LNR) who leaked the information about the contents of the deal.

Keep digging your hole is getting deeper

Quote from Derek McGrath, ERC CEO:

derek mcgrath wrote:“The alternative is to start up a new competition based on the BT contract. It’s been said that this completion could generate £60 to £70 million. But the only bit known about that package is the BT element which would only make up £20 million, odd. No one has seen that contract so no one knows what it represents. And where’s the other £50 million coming from? Any French TV deal by law would have to have approval of the FFR (French Federation Rugby) and they say they won’t be. So it’s hardly achievable, from a business point of view, and yet this is supposed to be a better business model.

Did I say it was McGrath, NO, I said it was Browne, keep on digging

I'd imagine that Browne would know what McGrath knows, since they are both on the Board of the ERC. THats why I used it.

I've heard lots of comments that the only person to actually know the contents of the deal outside the PRL is Richie.

Sin é wrote:I'd imagine that Browne would know what McGrath knows, since they are both on the Board of the ERC. THats why I used it.

I've heard lots of comments that the only person to actually know the contents of the deal outside the PRL is Richie.

Then how was Goze supposed to leak it? don't think I've ever seen that mentioned anywhere else. Did you make it up?

But otherwise, yes, everything I've seen suggests only PRL and RFU know what is in it. But the relevant (or at least the things the PRL consider relevant) things were passed on (such as how much revenue it would generate).