Time between points rules - who cares?

I don't need to write a tome about this one. Who cares? It's become the main talking point of this forum despite being probably the most boring topic you could discuss on tennis. It's like watching paint dry to be honest. Football fans don't yap on about how long it takes between a goal and a kick-off, despite huge variations in time. Rugby fans don't blabber about the time taken between try and (potential) conversion. Why?

BECAUSE IT IS TEDIOUS!!!

But in the interests of the forum and interesting debate, i've devised a little poll to see how many people really care. If I get a huge majority saying 'No', I propose a full time ban on the topic.

Stealth, I will say this I do get kind of annoyed when they towel themselves after every point. I am all for personal hygiene but that is getting a bit tedious. But you are right it is a boring topic of conversation. Although I am never one to let an argument die.

I've voted yes, partly to teach you a lesson for devising such a heavily loaded poll, but also because I do sometimes get annoyed when players take too much time between points. Fair enough if it's after a long rally, you can need to towel off (socal is right on that point though, sometimes the guy hits an ace and then calls for the towel, I mean how much sweat can you have worked up hitting ONE shot), get your breath back.

But sometimes players take it too far. Don't want this debate to become a whinge but when Djokovic slowly and deliberately bounces the ball ten times between serves it's just gamesmanship IMO, and the umpires should clamp down on it.

There should not be a poll about it. It's simply the rule to play within 20s! End of.

Should we also have a poll to know who is in favour of calling balls touching the line OUT instead of IN?

If you don;t understand that this extra time taken between points is to accomodate a more physical game which would not be possible otherwise, then I am afraid, you don't have a clue about professional tennis.

I see most of the 'top' players so to speak who abuse this rule. What makes them have any right in getting more time and bending the rules? What makes them more different than any other tennis player? It's like if you're in an exam and only the A grade students are allowed more time than allocated. For sure as heck that's unfair and it is the same in tennis. Novak and Rafa abuse the rule and get away with it. How much do you wanna bet that a player ranked 100 would get a warning for it. What makes Rafa and Novak so special that they can bend the rules? Heck lets not even bother about the ball bouncing only once before they hit it, they can let it bounce as many times as possible. See? It's simply not fair on everyone else.

I was tempted not to vote at all because the poll is so loaded. No, I don't sit with a stopwatch frothing at the mouth, but I do get very annoyed when a lot of extra time is taken every flippin' time. Maybe OK to stretch the rules after a particularly long rally, but rules are rules and everybody should be made to stick to them, or they should be abolished.

Maybe OK to stretch the rules after a particularly long rally
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Actually that's exactly where I woudl not like to see the 20s rule to be broken.

Seeing who recovers quicker, or who can inflict more damage without having to run around too much is part of the excitement. A sport with flexible rules is not a sport.

Any other sport, especially golf, woudl disqualify their players for breaking less significant rules.

When a boxer is knocked down, he is not be given more than 10s to stand up.

Teh problem is the ignorance of the fans not seeing the real reasons why some players break those rules.

OCD?

I voted no. It doesn't have much of an effect on the match. If a player was to come out and remark on Nadal or Djokovic I would deem it unprofessional to use such an excuse.

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It doesn't have much of an effect on the match.
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- Federer v Lopez 2011: 266 points in 176 mins = less than 40s/point
- Nadal v Djoko 2009: 245 points in 243mn = one minute per point.

The match with less points lasted 1h and 7mn more...Are you seriously saying that both Nadal and Djoko coudl have done as much running in an hour less time?

Tenez wrote:It doesn't have much of an effect on the match.
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- Federer v Lopez 2011: 266 points in 176 mins = less than 40s/point
- Nadal v Djoko 2009: 245 points in 243mn = one minute per point.

The match with less points lasted 1h and 7mn more...Are you seriously saying that both Nadal and Djoko coudl have done as much running in an hour less time?

Thats a terrible comparison Tenez, one was a complete thrashing the other was a long hard fought match, tooth and nail. The times reflect this.

Unless you're saying that they played slowly and longer because they didnt have the energy to play quicker ????

Not at all. The length of the rally is actually not very significant in the duration of a match. Just go to youtube and clock a few rallies from the Djoko/Rafa madrid semi and you will see that the 45sec if not 55sec of the one minute per point they take on average is when the ball is not in play. You even have for the first time a clock showing that by the broadcasters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av6XKTWDibQ

Look at that...first point (and it;s the beginning of the match so less time is taken between points) yet 4 seconds for the first point but 40 seconds before the second point is played. Twice as much time allowed!

Tenez you know that your statistic is completely irrelevant. Both Fed and Lopez have big serves and are more attacking and net players. What was the average number of shots hit in the cost. I bet the Nadal Djokovic match averaged had at least 1000 more shots with plenty of 20 and 30 shot rallies. Like Wooffie said it is up to the officials to enforce the rules. Its like in football teams when they go a goal up waste time. Or in basketball when one team falls behind they start fouling to stop the clock. Its part of the game, I am sure that both Novak and Rafa if forced to would have no problem playing within 20 seconds.

But this whole idea Iamawesome is spouting that only star players take more time than 20 seconds is just not true. A number of star players play quickly a number don't. A number of journeyman take a long time and others play quickly. And NONE OF THEM EVER GET DOCKED A POINT PENALTY NOT THE SLOW PLAYING JOURNEYMAN AND NOT RAFA NADAL, SO THEIR STATUS HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH IT.

You are purposely refusing to admit very simple facts...as the youtube clip shows.

Fed plays within teh 20s rule. If he were to add 20s on top of his time taking, the 40s average/point they took woudl be extended by 10s and if Lopez were to do the same, then each point woudl take a minute exactly like the Djoko/Nadal match.

You cannot go around that. Rallies are on average a small but very important fraction of the time spent on court.


No player could sprint like they do, plus hit the ball hard for 4 hours like Djoko and Nadal have done.

Watch some random rallies from Lopez and Federer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJlJk-k7XwE&feature=related

Not a stroll in the park either.

Tenez, lets put it this way i am not even arguing with you, they should enforce the 20 second rule, and do it universally. Warn them early on and then dock them a point if it continues. But Roger Federer also needs to not yell at his opponents in the change over in a much bigger breach of etiquette and rules of the game by directing his criticisms in an irate manner at his opponent and not the match official. In my mind Roger's breach of etiquette is way worse. And frankly if Novak wants to bounce the ball 10 times its his choice it isn't up to greater than thou Federer to tell him what to do in his service ritual. Your job is to return the serve Rog, not to tell him how many times he is allowed to bounce the ball in your presence oh great one.

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Ah but Woofs, in creating this thread, at least Stealth has made a place where people can let the subject run and run without bothering those who don't care about it.

Myself, I'm between both opinions. It doesn't really bother me, but sometimes I do find it annoying (usually when Rafa's playing against Andy, faces BP, takes a long time and pings down an ace )

I think Novak has cut down on the number of ball bounces in order to conserve energy so as he can achieve the new unbeaten record

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But Roger Federer also needs to not yell at his opponents in the change over in a much bigger breach of etiquette
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When did he do that? This to me seems more like a description of Connors than Federer frankly. Federer must have had a good reason to lose his temper. He won 16 slams without having to lose his temper as far as I rememeber.

This is an old chestnut that keeps coming along time and time again, and I really don't care if the players take a few seconds longer between points, wether it's to towel themselves down, change their racquet when new balls come out, or pinch an extra moment warming up.

I care about the players....the way they play...how they play...the entertainment they give us, the way they make us feel about this fabulous game, and if I've forked out over £200 for a weeks tennis to see my favourite players then I'm happy to see them out on that court for as long as possible.

I cannot believe that everyone gets their knickers in a twist about this matter.....yes if it gets to stupid levels then fine....something has to be done. but surely that's up to the umpires to decide match by match, and if they're not doing the job....then step on them, that's what they're there for.

Wooffie wrote:I have an idea. Why not create a sticky for the the TIME BETWEEN POINTS RULE or any variant of this tedious subject that people wish to discuss.

It just becomes a complete and utter soapbox, so take it out of the main tennis forum, allow those that wish to discuzzzzzzzzzz it ad infinitum in there so they can do so at their leisure which will allow for new tennis articles to be created in the main forum to discuss the blinkin' tennis, and not have this boring subject continuously bumped to the top of pile.

That or respect Stealth's vote and <ban> it.

AMEN.

Jubbahey?

Or......you could not post a reply and let them get on with discussing "ad nauseum" till the cows come home.

Or....we'd have a multitude of stickies about every single aspect of preparing for a serve, from tying shoelaces to changing the bat.

I like the sudden seizure of the prep, looking up at the stands as if someone has moved erroneously, a little hard stare, then back to the prep. Great for making the other guy look around and get out of sync.

I'm with Jubba here, if people are discussing something which you find dull, just ignore them! It's what I do when socal keeps going on about how great Novak is...

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This thread is as interesting as discussing the density of air at various temperatures. Generally I sit and watch a match and let the umpire do the umpiring. Sometimes I turn to another channel and sometimes I switch the television off and do something else.

Tenez wrote:But Roger Federer also needs to not yell at his opponents in the change over in a much bigger breach of etiquette
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When did he do that? This to me seems more like a description of Connors than Federer frankly. Federer must have had a good reason to lose his temper. He won 16 slams without having to lose his temper as far as I rememeber.

Australian open 2011 semi, federer in the change over yells over "You are boucing the ball too much!" in a very loud and arrogant manner. Novak yells back, "Sorry!" then promptly takes him apart. Yes when Federer wins everything he is the model of sportsmanship when he starts to lose he isn't that nice. Like I said, this in my mind is a bigger breach of the rules and the etiquette of the game. You got something to say Roger direct it to the official he is kind of hard to miss since he is sitting in a chair about 2 and half meters off the ground.

What a stupid and pathetically loaded "Poll".

If the moderators are trying to run an intelligent site then this is tantamount to spam or wumming.

Wooffie wrote:The subject of the article is the TIME BETWEEN POINTS rule and a vote to put this utterly tedious subject to bed so that it enables more interesting things to be discussed like the blinking tennis matches being played!!

Its not about the "time it takes to play a point plus the time inbetween points and blimey, don't those Nadal and Djokovic chappies take things beyond the edge of reason with the length of their matches and lets watch YouTube to prove it" rule.

Stealth ... you are not my hero any more I feel you have created another beast to allow individuals to let this subject run and run and run ad nauseum and where is that :sleep: smiley when you need it.

I repeat ... if you're that bothered, complain to the ATP and ITF about it because clearly neither certain players will take their own responsibility for playing within the points between time rule, nor will the officials apply it. Enough!

Oh Wooffie don't be so lame. You support endless time between points because Rafa does it. I oppose it because it slows the game down, can be unfair to some players and violates the rules. It's one of the reasons I'm not a Nadal fan, the process works that way for me, not the other.

If YOU don't want to discuss it then the thread has a door right over there -------> I'm sure you're a supporter of free expression.

So judging by people's responses so far, we seem to have

1. Rafa and Nole fans don't think it matters, that the subject is boring, has been done to death, etc.

2. Federer fans think it's disgraceful that players are allowed to get away with breaking the rules time and time again.

3. Murray fans don't really care as long as it doesn't get silly.

Admittedly, I'm generalising a bit here (for instance Steath who's a Fed fan follows view 1). Now if we look at it objectively, we see:

1. Nole and Rafa do abusethis rule, not all the time (someone once worked out that Rafa's average between points in a slam (when you're allowed 25 secs) was in fact 24 secs), but more frequently thatn Fed or Andy.

2. Federer plays fast and has been known to complain about Rafa and Nole's slow tactics (at the AO this year, and didn't he say something about Rafa a few years ago?)

3. Murray plays fast but doesn't seem to mind what his opponent does.

Anyone seeing the pattern here? Yep our views reflect more or less that of our favourite player. Hardly surprising really... In ten or fifteen years time we'l all have a new favourite, will our views change accordingly?

I propose to re-open this thread in 15 years time

Mad for Chelsea wrote:So judging by people's responses so far, we seem to have

1. Rafa and Nole fans don't think it matters, that the subject is boring, has been done to death, etc.

2. Federer fans think it's disgraceful that players are allowed to get away with breaking the rules time and time again.

3. Murray fans don't really care as long as it doesn't get silly.

Admittedly, I'm generalising a bit here (for instance Steath who's a Fed fan follows view 1). Now if we look at it objectively, we see:

1. Nole and Rafa do abusethis rule, not all the time (someone once worked out that Rafa's average between points in a slam (when you're allowed 25 secs) was in fact 24 secs), but more frequently thatn Fed or Andy.

2. Federer plays fast and has been known to complain about Rafa and Nole's slow tactics (at the AO this year, and didn't he say something about Rafa a few years ago?)

3. Murray plays fast but doesn't seem to mind what his opponent does.

Anyone seeing the pattern here? Yep our views reflect more or less that of our favourite player. Hardly surprising really... In ten or fifteen years time we'l all have a new favourite, will our views change accordingly?

I propose to re-open this thread in 15 years time

Your logic is slightly (only slightly) faulty, in that it assumes a cause and effect process in one direction only i.e. favouritism drives opinion on timewasting.

There is also the process that a basket of attributes and behaviour of a player drives favouritism. Personally I would be much more inclined towards Nadal if he didn't abuse the rules for what I believe are deliberate reasons to aid physical recovery. I put it in there with overt coaching, which would annoy me about any player too.

so if I write something more like

favouritism <=> opinion on timewasting

would that be about right?

As far as I can tell, SMAL has voiced his opinion about a time rule.

A poll he devised reflects his frustration at comments about this.

There are several things you can do,

A/ Bypass the poll (if you disagree with it) and contribute.
B/ Take the Poll and contribute
C/ (my fav) Bypass the Poll and don't contribute.

I don't see anything spammy or wummy with this article, his argument is about posters who think that certain players waste time, there are obviously people who disagree with his opinion and the best place to voice those concerns is on this thread.

Those of you who have posted on here, must belong to the aye's or nay's or the <notbotheredmuch>, whatever the case, it looks like healthy discussion to me.

The facts:

Nadal has the best 5 setter record in history with only 2 5-setters losses:

1 - Miami 2005 final where he played every point within 20s and completely ran out of steam in the 4th set.

2 - Wimbledon 2007 - Point average 40s as opposed to one minute let's say against Djoko in Madrid. Nadal lost in that Wimbledon final the last 4 games with a clear drop in his FH power and precision.

So when fans say it doesn't bother them, at least they should acknowledge that it certainly can affect the outcome of a match...Any honest tennis fan should simply be against that.

And if you still don't think that is the case, listen to Tsonga (who knows better than some here) who after one of his match against Nadal said "I made him run in all corners he was spent but they give him one minute per point to recover so all I was doing was in vain"!

socal1976 wrote:

Tenez wrote:But Roger Federer also needs to not yell at his opponents in the change over in a much bigger breach of etiquette
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When did he do that? This to me seems more like a description of Connors than Federer frankly. Federer must have had a good reason to lose his temper. He won 16 slams without having to lose his temper as far as I rememeber.

Australian open 2011 semi, federer in the change over yells over "You are boucing the ball too much!" in a very loud and arrogant manner. Novak yells back, "Sorry!" then promptly takes him apart. Yes when Federer wins everything he is the model of sportsmanship when he starts to lose he isn't that nice. Like I said, this in my mind is a bigger breach of the rules and the etiquette of the game. You got something to say Roger direct it to the official he is kind of hard to miss since he is sitting in a chair about 2 and half meters off the ground.

Novak was also communicating with his coaching staff which is also not allowed.

IamAwesome, there is the video, Federer yelled you are bouncing the ball too much. There is video of the event, your interesting personal analysis of the facts based on nothing but your conjecture does not outweigh the actual event. Fed yelled at him "You are bouncing the ball too much" and Novak yelled back, "Sorry".

And I disagree with Mad for Chelsea, I am nole fan and don't have any problem with the 20 second rule being enforced not in the least. Give them a warning and if it continues dock them a point. That is fine with me.

I also would like the Roger Federer to obey the rules of the game and etiquette of the game and direct his complaints at the tournament official, WHO IS THE ONE RESPONSIBLE FOR ENFORCING THE RULES. So in actuality, if you want to enforce the rules then Federer should be cautioned to not verbally direct his comments at his opponent.

AND AGAIN I HAVE NO PROBLEM ENFORCING THE RULES, but Roger federer is not the king of the world he doesn't get to tell his opponents how many times they get to bounce the ball in his presence. And he doesn't get to just yell at his opponent in the change over.

Socal - I agree that Federer should not have to yell at Djoko in an ideal world. But he only did it because it's not an ideal world and there was a breach of the rule in teh first place by Djoko.

Complaining to the referee, carries a very nasty image. We all remember the pupils moaning at the teachers. Worse in my view than telling the player straight in his face. If Federer is unsettled by this abuse of the rule, I understand why he woudl be tempted to unsettle Djoko in turn.

And above all the referee is often under heavy pressure from the tournament organisers. If he wants to have the job next year, he better make sure he keeps the organisers and sponsors happy.

I feel you are underestimating the pressure of the sponsors. And I believe this is why Federer keeps it quite v Nadal even though he would have more reasons to be angry at him but they share their biggest sponsor (NIke).

Tenez justify it all you like, if you want to impose a hard and fast rule for time in between points then you better not look the other way when other rules are violated. In my mind Roger's breach of etiquette makes him look a lot nastier then complaining to the umpire. Yelling at your opponent in the change over is something that really doesn't happen very often in tennis. And the umpire is there for you to complain to.

And i really don't know where all this sponsors stuff comes in. I highly doubt Nike or anyone else would drop a 16 time grandslam champion if he states the obvious that his opponent is not following the rules as it pertains to time between points. By the way he has complained in the media about Nadal getting coaching during matches and about Nadal and Djoko for taking too much time. So it isn't as if his pressing his point would be so controversial and terrible.

Regardless, Fed annoyed or not should not be allowed to have a go at his opponent in between points. And in an ideal world that would get punished just like too much time between points.

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And i really don't know where all this sponsors stuff comes in. I highly doubt Nike or anyone else would drop a 16 time grandslam champion if he states the obvious that his opponent is not following the rules as it pertains to time between points.
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Well you might want to dig down on that cause sponsors are everything in a professional sport. That's where teh real money comes from for those players. It;s also them who indirectly decide who plays when and on which court.

They certainly have on their contract that other Nike players should be respected and so on.

Do you think it;s a coincidence Federer and Nadal play friends while none are actually giving the same respect to Taccini Djoko?

The reason I won't take up your kind offer, Wooffie, is I don't care enough. What I do care enough to do is enter a discussion, air my opinion, debate with others. That's why I'll talk about this but not write pointless letters.

The more I've thought about it the more I think Tenez may be on the right lines about the "OCD-ish" actions; if you want to ensure you control stuff like heart rate then better not to concentrate on that, but to develop a strict routine which controls the result. Picking trousers out of bum, touching ears, pockets and so on would make a built-in spacer and guarantee the pause better than just standing there slowing your breath or heart down.

IF (and it's an IF) that is true then it's very, very naughty. Up there with coaching.

For socal, I agree Federer shouldn't have done that, but for the record how many matches has he done that in, and how many matches have his rivals flagrently abused the time rules? Just so we keep the perspective and don't mistakenly equate the two in matters of seriousness or persistence, ok?

And if a player is willing to bend the rules to accomodate his game....frankly, where do you think he will stop?

Tenez wrote:And if a player is willing to bend the rules to accomodate his game....frankly, where do you think he will stop?

I don't know Tenez maybe he won't stop till he has taken over the world and is then forcing the rest of us to wear pirate pants? There are lots of players on today's tour that don't follow the time rules. Punish them, nobody seems to be arguing with you guys about the fact that the rules should be enforced. And bogbrush, Fed's conduct is worse than ball bouncing. You may have a grievance but the way you go about addressing that grievance can actually be improper and actually worse than the original offense you have suffered. Besides it is really immaterial to me because its up to the officials to enforce it. As stealth has pointed out officials in all sports let some things slide and enforce other rules more strictly. I am sure that if the rules are enforced fairly, which no attempt has been made since I have been watching tennis, that both Nadal and Djokovic would still be highly successful and would adapt to the new enforcement of said rules.

bogbrush wrote:The reason I won't take up your kind offer, Wooffie, is I don't care enough. What I do care enough to do is enter a discussion, air my opinion, debate with others. That's why I'll talk about this but not write pointless letters.

Hmmmm..... didn't this guy say something earlier?

bogbrush wrote:What a stupid and pathetically loaded "Poll".

If the moderators are trying to run an intelligent site then this is tantamount to spam or wumming.

It would appear that, since you are indeed going utterly ballistic at the sight of this poll, you do care. You care a lot. But of course you are not willing to accept the inevitable response from those you would have to petition, which will likely be 'We're really terribly sorry, but no-one really cares, to be honest.' The irony is that if we took the time you've spent writing on this particularly boring topic, it would far outstrip the time required to either write a letter or make a petition.

You also seem unaware that this thread finally provides a single place for you to post, all day, every day, all year on your favourite topic, instead of having to somehow wedge it into other threads that aren't related to it.

So now we can consider this the official 'time rule' thread, you don't have to discuss it in any other thread, just this single one. Be grateful, huh?

socal1976 wrote:And bogbrush, Fed's conduct is worse than ball bouncing. and

I think you are losing the plot there (once again). Being angry once for a fair reason cannot be compared with repetitive and compulsive breach of a simple rule.

Look guys Federer has been playing for 13 years now and hardly have we ever seen any type of misconduct from him and you're all going on about one incident which I doubt even Djokovic remembers, yet Djokovic constantly abuses the rules every match, nearly every time he serves.

Forget about Federer and Djokovic - The issue lies with Nadal and he is always at the top of the culprits list.

Nothing us mere mortals can do If the Umpires can't so why bother keep going on about it!

It all depends on what you call/term "abusing" the rules.

Does he do it on purpose, to put the other player off?

Does he do it because he is concentrating so hard, he loses touch with time?

Does he do it because it is a habit of a lifetime?

Does he do it to annoy us?

Does he do it for OCD reasons?

Does he do it to give himself time to psyche up for the next point?

Or does he do it because he can, because the umpire allows him to and it gives him time to recuperate?

The next problem you have is finding out which one Nadal is guilty of, and to be honest, the only way you will find out, is to ask him, and that ain't going to happen in a month of Sundays.

So all this opinionating is based on assumptions and could be's/might be's, and it applies to all the top players who do this, whether once a match or in every game.

And that in the end is going to make it impossible for you to resolve your issues, especially with Nadal, who seems to be the focus of this article about time wasting.

WOW - I clicked on this thread expecting a bit of light-hearted banter !!

Haven't read all the posts, but as a guess is it split into Nadal/Djoko alleged time-wasting v most of the rest ??

I'm in the mouth-frothing category myself ! BUT - 20 secs is too short. In high temps especially and surfaces where rallies can be several minutes (esp clay), the players have to towel down.

Increase the time to, say, 40 secs and ENFORCE IT !!!

Exiledscotinwhales, the problem is that I have never seen this rule be taken seriously in the 28 years oh so that I have followed the ATP. Now all of sudden the reason Nadal wins is because he violates the ATP time rule. A lot of players from journeyman to star players have done this over the years, and until Nadal and Djoko the serial ball bouncer nobody ever made a big deal of it. Honestly, I think it is sheer animosity to the two guys have usurped Fed's position more than it is the time wasting that annoys them. If they want to enforce the rule fairly and across the board I have no problem with it. But, to go from that point to claiming that Nadal gains an unfair advantage is a bit ludicrous. If they don't enforce the rule for anyone, and taking extra time is such a huge advantage, then every player should do it, and it isn't a huge disadvantage to anyone because they can also choose to take extra time to recuperate. A rule that isn't enforced and hasn't been enforced in 30 years really doesn't exist. Sort of like anti-drug and prostitution laws in Holland, there are laws on the books against both, but since the dutch have tolerated these behaviors for so long its like the law doesn't exist.