Sonny Liston the ultimate front runner.

Some fighters build up ahead of steam and are totally irrepressible , when on top they're ultimately uncontainable, Sonny Liston was boxing's ultimate frontrunner. Most historians fell in love with Liston he was what boxing is about a menacing knockout machine, but should his name be muttered in a ATG status ?

Not for me what really hurts Liston isn't just that he lost to Ali, big deal, every top fighter did at some point, but the fact that he quit on the stool when the going got tough, and only after 6 rounds, and then went out with a one-punch KO in the rematch (a blatant dive IMO ). If he had tried hard for 15 and lost a decision his legacy would have been better than simply by quitting on the stool. That makes me believe that Liston was a great front runner, and particularly good against a guy who would duke it out with him.

Any other examples of boxing a frontrunners ? Greats that never battled adversity in the ring ?

Mike Tyson....greatest ever or flat track bully who bottled it when they fought back...or at best couldn't come up with a plan B?

Only thing in Tyson's favour was that when he was beaten, he did generally take his lumps but was seemingly content to allow himself to be beaten up and beaten down (no doubt some psychologist will have an explaination for this )

That's a good point Dave , Tyson certainly took his lumps in defeat , he did battle adversity a little I guess when he was being soundly beaten by Francois Botha before laying him cold , this is after he tried to dismantle his arm mind you.

Cheers Rodders

DAVE667 wrote:Mike Tyson....greatest ever or flat track bully who bottled it when they fought back...or at best couldn't come up with a plan B?

Only thing in Tyson's favour was that when he was beaten, he did generally take his lumps but was seemingly content to allow himself to be beaten up and beaten down (no doubt some psychologist will have an explaination for this )

yeah he did take a fair old lump out of holyfield

Think to dismiss Liston as solely as a front runner is a little harsh Rodders. As Jimmy Stuart used to reasonably argue the complete capitulations against Ali are not befitting an all time great or someone often held in the esteem Sonny is. However think a true measure of Sonny’s worth can be seen in his pre title days. Whilst D’Amato was moving heaven and earth to keep Patterson away from Liston or anyone else of top tier ability, Sonny was cutting a swathe through the rest of the division and establishing himself as the best of the rest. Fought the likes of Williams, Machen and Valdez. All of these were fine fighters in their own respect and in many of the fights Liston did not have things all his own way and he certainly did not look for a way out in those. He toughed it out and found a way to prevail.

Also the other thing with Liston is you never know what was going on behind the scenes. Rumours of fixes, drink and drug problems are rife. I am in a minority of one in believes the second fight with Ali was on the level but enough there to hold the opposing view without being a tin foil hat wearing conspiracy loon.

Rowley wrote:Think to dismiss Liston as solely as a front runner is a little harsh Rodders. As Jimmy Stuart used to reasonably argue the complete capitulations against Ali are not befitting an all time great or someone often held in the esteem Sonny is. However think a true measure of Sonny’s worth can be seen in his pre title days. Whilst D’Amato was moving heaven and earth to keep Patterson away from Liston or anyone else of top tier ability, Sonny was cutting a swathe through the rest of the division and establishing himself as the best of the rest. Fought the likes of Williams, Machen and Valdez. All of these were fine fighters in their own respect and in many of the fights Liston did not have things all his own way and he certainly did not look for a way out in those. He toughed it out and found a way to prevail.

Also the other thing with Liston is you never know what was going on behind the scenes. Rumours of fixes, drink and drug problems are rife. I am in a minority of one in believes the second fight with Ali was on the level but enough there to hold the opposing view without being a tin foil hat wearing conspiracy loon.

Come and join us, the water's lovely!

Good and fair points Jeff, don't get me wrong Liston passes eyeball test as one of the most technical proficient HWs on tape I've witnessed. I find the the whole Ali debacle unforgiving and can't fathom why Liston is so well favoured in head to heads, a fighter who is proven to implode when the going gets tough.

Cheers Rodders

A man is ain't nothing without his paranoia, Jeff.

As a younger fighter he lost a split decision after suffering a broken jaw early going. Against somebody Marshall. I wouldn't begrudge someone for not continuing with a broken jaw.

Liston was probably quite disillusioned by the time he faced Ali, given how badly he'd been treated as champ, and not to mention old.

Those Ali fights muddy the waters -- neither was above board in my view.

Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdez and Mike DeJohn all took the fight to Liston and were beaten down regardless. Williams put him under heavy fire; Marty Marshall broke his jaw yet Liston saw out the fight. This idea of him as a front-runner is overblown, in my opinion.

Fighters are too easily pigeon-holed. Often incorrectly.

hazharrison wrote:Those Ali fights muddy the waters -- neither was above board in my view.
Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdez and Mike DeJohn all took the fight to Liston and were beaten down regardless. Williams put him under heavy fire; Marty Marshall broke his jaw yet Liston saw out the fight. This idea of him as a front-runner is overblown, in my opinion.

Fighters are too easily pigeon-holed. Often incorrectly.

NEITHER was above board...how do you figure that? Liston was beaten from pillar to post a fighter who went on to prove himself to be one of the greatest HW of all time. He may have claimed a spurious injury prevented him from continuing but it wasn't as if the outcome was in any doubt at that point.

May as well suggest that Kostya threw the Hatton fight.

It's tricky with Liston. I remember on the old 606 site and in the early days on here, me and Jimmy had some good back and forth over him. He felt Liston was a little overrated, I felt the opposite.

I've heard others say it, but you can argue there's a difference between having heart and having mental strength. As Dave alludes to, in Tyson's defeats he generally seemed to have plenty of the former (as in he could stand up to a good beating for a long time and still hang in there) but looked to lack a bit of the latter (as in while he was standing up to the punishment, you felt that he'd perhaps resigned himself to just having to take the beating and didn't really have the strength to turn the situation around).

If you wanted to be ultra-critical of Liston, however, you could say that he showed neither in the two Ali fights. For what it's worth, I believe the second one was very much a deliberate flop on Sonny's part (but that he received no money for it, and that it was him and him alone who'd made the decision), but the first one I tend to give Sonny a bit more leeway for.

He quit on his stool alright, but in the aftermath there has been a fair bit of documentation and evidence which shows that he was indeed hampered by a severe injury to the shoulder. I believe he personally presented these to the press in one of the press conferences for the rematch, and the Miami Beach Boxing Commission did diagnose him with a torn tendon in the left shoulder.

Whether or not he could still have made some effort to continue is a reasonable question, I guess. Fights have been won in certain exceptional cases by men with worse injuries, or at least there have been fights in which the afflicted have still seen the final bell / gone out on their shield. But he was in against perhaps the best version of the greatest Heavyweight the world has ever seen. I think Liston knew that, if he continued, it would just be another nine (or however many it would have taken Ali to get a stoppage) rounds of punishment for him, a thought I suspect he had racing through his head in the second fight, too.

He also did box more than half a fight (admittedly only an eight rounder) against Marty Marshall with a broken jaw, albeit he lost the decision, and also fought back after being hurt himself in the first fight against Williams to stop him, and this was when Williams was one of the hardest punchers out there, himself cutting his way through his opposition with almost as much ease and arrogance as Liston.

Throw in the uncertainty over Liston's precise age, the fact that he was hitting the bottle so badly by that stage, suggestions that he'd been receiving death threats from the Nation of Islam etc.....As I said, tricky. Some truth in what you're saying I think, Rodney, but maybe not quite enough to put Liston up there as THE ultimate front runner who would always crumble under pressure.

He quit on his stool alright, but in the aftermath there has been a fair bit of documentation and evidence which shows that he was indeed hampered by a severe injury to the shoulder. I believe he personally presented these to the press in one of the press conferences for the rematch, and the Miami Beach Boxing Commission did diagnose him with a torn tendon in the left shoulder.

I imagine if Sonny was around today and posted pictures of himself holding a medical report on Twitter he'd be getting a dog's abuse.

DAVE667 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:Those Ali fights muddy the waters -- neither was above board in my view.
Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdez and Mike DeJohn all took the fight to Liston and were beaten down regardless. Williams put him under heavy fire; Marty Marshall broke his jaw yet Liston saw out the fight. This idea of him as a front-runner is overblown, in my opinion.

Fighters are too easily pigeon-holed. Often incorrectly.

NEITHER was above board...how do you figure that? Liston was beaten from pillar to post a fighter who went on to prove himself to be one of the greatest HW of all time. He may have claimed a spurious injury prevented him from continuing but it wasn't as if the outcome was in any doubt at that point.

May as well suggest that Kostya threw the Hatton fight.

Beaten from pillar to post? Have you seen the fight? It was level on the cards at the time of the stoppage.

I believe Liston was forced to throw both fights by the mob.

hazharrison wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:Those Ali fights muddy the waters -- neither was above board in my view.
Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdez and Mike DeJohn all took the fight to Liston and were beaten down regardless. Williams put him under heavy fire; Marty Marshall broke his jaw yet Liston saw out the fight. This idea of him as a front-runner is overblown, in my opinion.

Fighters are too easily pigeon-holed. Often incorrectly.

NEITHER was above board...how do you figure that? Liston was beaten from pillar to post a fighter who went on to prove himself to be one of the greatest HW of all time. He may have claimed a spurious injury prevented him from continuing but it wasn't as if the outcome was in any doubt at that point.

May as well suggest that Kostya threw the Hatton fight.

Beaten from pillar to post? Have you seen the fight? It was level on the cards at the time of the stoppage.

I believe Liston was forced to throw both fights by the mob.

Does that really count for anything?

hazharrison wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:Those Ali fights muddy the waters -- neither was above board in my view.
Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdez and Mike DeJohn all took the fight to Liston and were beaten down regardless. Williams put him under heavy fire; Marty Marshall broke his jaw yet Liston saw out the fight. This idea of him as a front-runner is overblown, in my opinion.

Fighters are too easily pigeon-holed. Often incorrectly.

NEITHER was above board...how do you figure that? Liston was beaten from pillar to post a fighter who went on to prove himself to be one of the greatest HW of all time. He may have claimed a spurious injury prevented him from continuing but it wasn't as if the outcome was in any doubt at that point.

May as well suggest that Kostya threw the Hatton fight.

Beaten from pillar to post? Have you seen the fight? It was level on the cards at the time of the stoppage.

I believe Liston was forced to throw both fights by the mob.

Numerous times and scorecards be damned, Clay runs rings round Liston. Liston lunging and lumbering foward doesn't, for me, win rounds. However, if you think it's a fix, after all this time you're unlikely to change your opinion...oh a topic for a thread!

Referee Barney Felix had scored the six rounds 57-57 on the 10-point-must system. Judge Bill Lovitt stored it 58-56 for Liston, and Judge Gus Jacobsen 58-56 for Clay.

hazharrison wrote:Referee Barney Felix had scored the six rounds 57-57 on the 10-point-must system. Judge Bill Lovitt stored it 58-56 for Liston, and Judge Gus Jacobsen 58-56 for Clay.

Makes Eugenia Williams and C.J. Lewis seems competent.