How high should Sonny Liston rank on all time lists?

Thought I might try another one of these seeing as there was some excellent debate on the Jim Jeffries thread. Ignoring all the "old v modern" nonsense, where do we think Sonny should rank amongst the greats?

In his pomp, Liston was a truly formidable figure with brutal power in both fists, a ramrod jab, incredible physical strength and sometimes underrated boxing skills. His links to the mob, his fighting prowess and his surly, aggressive nature made Liston one of the most feared boxers in history.

An early career defeat to Marty Marshall, when Liston evidently fought for much of the fight with a broken jaw, was avenged twice over and he holds early knockouts over good fighters such as number one contender Cleveland Williams (x2), Nino Valdes, and Zora Folley. Liston also had a solid win over the seasoned and awkward Eddie Machen before going on to destroy World Champion, Floyd Patterson, in less than a round. Liston repeated the trick in his first defense, once again proving way too much for Patterson.

Then came 1964 and the emergence of a young Cassius Clay who beat Liston for the title, with Sonny retiring on his stool, citing a shoulder injury in the 6th round. Liston and Clay rematched in 1965, with the fight ending in the first round following one of the most notorious "punches" in boxing history. Liston fought on after the humiliation of the second Clay fight, winning fights in Sweden and the USA before losing to Leotis Martin on a 9th round knockout in a fight he was winning. Liston had a final fight with Chuck Wepner, cutting him to pieces before the fight was halted in the 10th.

Where does this leave Liston in the pantheon of heavyweight greats? A truly intimidating presence, brutal power, better skills than he was often credited with, including a consumate performance in the first Cleveland Williams fight and an aura of fear that pervaded the division at the time. On the flip side, the losses to Ali will forever be a weight on his legacy, even though many respected observers claim the "punch" in the second fight was a legitimate knockout blow and Ali himself went on to be the "greatest". Also, Patterson, although seen as a capable champion, will never be a top ten claiment himself.

Can Liston ever be a top ten heavyweight or is his record just too inconclusive? For the record, I have him just outside the top 10, mixed with likes of Holyfield, Charles, Tunney and Tyson.

Am a big Liston fan and think in his pomp he is a truly terrific fighter. Unfortunately though pretty much all of his best work came before his title reign with his wins over the excellent Williams, Valdes and Foley. The Williams fights in particular are great performances. However, whilst we can debate the extent to which the Ali fights (2 in particular) were on the level it does not change the fact they were rank bad performances and as Jimmy has argued on more than one occasion they cannot be glossed over.

I agree he is an awesomely talented heavyweight, terrific jab, awesome power and under estimated ability to close the ring off, all allied to a decent chin, which makes it all the more suspect when most of these assets deserted him against Ali. For me much as I would love to say otherwise I'd have to have him outside the top ten, his record as title holder is simply to thin and whilst his record on the way up is good it is not good enough to totally allow for this.

Liston was a terrific fighter. Never given his dues due to Ali and his mob connections. But I would definately include him in my top 10. Possibly lower half of the top 10 even if he did fight in black and white.

Rowley I dont think there was anything suspect in the Ali fight. He just ran into someone whose style no-one had ever ecnountered and could not prepare for.

Az there are certainly question marks over the second fight, whilst I don't think he took a dive, there are plenty who do.

I think he has to be a top 15 heavyweight. I always feel almost sorry for Liston.

Excellent stuff, Tino.

Like you, I normally have Liston hovering around tenth spot. He remains one of the most complicated and enigmatic figures in boxing history, and even respected scribes and historians, who are normally pretty much on the same page in ranking the greats, seem to be split on Liston. Herb Goldman, for example, rates him a lofty second, behind only Ali, whereas another historian whose work I always enjoy dismisses Liston as being little more than a bully who folded when challenged.

Little doubt, in my mind, that had Liston been given his shot when he merited it, he would have secured a solid five year reign under his belt, and the good fighters he swept aside while he lingered in the shadows would have been seen as worthy scalps for a defending champion. Under those circumstances I don't see how he could possibly be denied a top ten slot but, if we are to deal dispassionately with the facts as they are, I'd see him in the company of Frazier, Tyson, Lewis and Holyfield scrapping it out for the last two places in a top ten, and then only if I disregard Tunney at heavyweight.

rowley wrote:Az there are certainly question marks over the second fight, whilst I don't think he took a dive, there are plenty who do.

I'm actually split on their second fight. Part of me says he took a dive because of 1) Ali's reaction. 2) Liston's reaction when on the ground. He looked as though he was acting.

But watching the punch, it caught him flush on the chin and as it was the first round, he could have been caught cold.

Isn't there film in the process of being made of him?

Is a different debate for a different day but to summarise my position I have never bought the dive. My basic problem is if you were going to throw a fight why make such a pee poor job of it.

rowley wrote:Is a different debate for a different day but to summarise my position I have never bought the dive. My basic problem is if you were going to throw a fight why make such a pee poor job of it.

He could have been doing reverse psychology. Argh. Who knows? Great fighter and an unfortunate character. Born dirt poor and used by nefarious characters. Easily top 10 for me. Based on ability I would have him at 5.

azania wrote:Isn't there film in the process of being made of him?

There was a film made about him a few years ago. It was called Phantom Punch. I've never seen it but apparently it wasnt very good.

There are always rumours of films that never really go anywhere. There was a rumour Spike Lee was going to do one on Louis with Terence Howard in, which actually sounded like it would be worth the wait but little to nothing came of it as far as I know, great pity as Louis is more than worthy of a biography.

J.Benson II wrote:

azania wrote:Isn't there film in the process of being made of him?

There was a film made about him a few years ago. It was called Phantom Punch. I've never seen it but apparently it wasnt very good.

I saw it, J.Benson and, each to his own, I found it a turgid and boring affair.

rowley wrote:There are always rumours of films that never really go anywhere. There was a rumour Spike Lee was going to do one on Louis with Terence Howard in, which actually sounded like it would be worth the wait but little to nothing came of it as far as I know, great pity as Louis is more than worthy of a biography.

Hopefully not Terence Howard. I saw a film in which he played Ali. Total assault on the character.

He can act though, difference between being rubbish and being miscast and think him playing Ali would be a case of the latter Az

rowley wrote:He can act though, difference between being rubbish and being miscast and think him playing Ali would be a case of the latter Az

Probably. I think he may be good at playing Louis. He was a very boring character anyway.

Tenth spot, for me. It's understandable that people would want to rank him lower than the likes of Frazier, Holyfield or Tyson (all of whom I have him higher than) based on his relatively short and non-descript title reign, but that only tells half the story. Regardless of how short his reign was, the fact remains that he proved, by hook or crook, that he was the best Heavyweight in the world for roughly five years, and certainly numero uno between Marciano and Ali. Like Ezzard Charles at Light-Heavyweight some ten years before, he was simply an uncrowned champion.

As a side note, there aren't too many I'd pick to oust him in a head-to-head match up, either. Great fighter and a solid number ten Heavyweight for me.

88Chris05 wrote:Tenth spot, for me. It's understandable that people would want to rank him lower than the likes of Frazier, Holyfield or Tyson (all of whom I have him higher than) based on his relatively short and non-descript title reign, but that only tells half the story. Regardless of how short his reign was, the fact remains that he proved, by hook or crook, that he was the best Heavyweight in the world for roughly five years, and certainly numero uno between Marciano and Ali. Like Ezzard Charles at Light-Heavyweight some ten years before, he was simply an uncrowned champion.

As a side note, there aren't too many I'd pick to oust him in a head-to-head match up, either. Great fighter and a solid number ten Heavyweight for me.

I largely agree hence I said on ability I would put him at 5th. I believe Ali, Holmes, Tyson and perhaps Foreman would have the beatng of him.

Outside the top ten for me and by a way .Agree did his best work before he came champ but the best between Marciano and Ali?
Thats like saying he was the tallest dwarf
Threw both fights against Ali for me.Quit in the first when realised Ali had his number and took a dive in the second.Made a bad job of it but he wasn't that clever
That reads harshly but I see Liston as a victim of his background/ upbringing
His record in the ring simply does not stand up and that is what counts not ability or potential

I'm a big fan of Liston, and looking at the Williams rematch, short though it was, he displays more ability than most heavyweight champs with his physical gifts bothered to learn. There's a bit where he slips three succesive lefts with ease against the big, powerful Williams. From 1953 to 1969 he had three defeats. Oe of these was an early career slip up which was evenged and two were to the greatest of them all, who on that night could probably beat any heavyweight in history, so I don't really hold it against Liston that Ali had his number. After that he went around getting more and more wins with only one defeat when Leotis Martn nailed him, but the question marks around his age always rear their head here, just how old was the guy that got dropped by Martin as he terrorised every other heavyweight while frozen out of title contention?

On the right day I wouldn't have any problem having Liston in the top 5.

Liston did not just lose to Ali he didn't get close
His style was based upon intimidation.He met a fighter who wouldnt be bullied and he capitulated.Now he either threw the fight or quit and did the same in the second. Thats not top ten by a long way
How on earth he can be a top 5 heavy i really cant see based on who he beat or performed against his opposition

Cleveland Williams was bigger than Liston and wouldn't step down, but Liston dug in hs heals and braved adversity to KO The Big Cat. I see far too many people judging Liston on two fights against Ali, his record was 50-4 not 0-2.

I know his record and I see no great fighters on it other than Ali
If anyone can tell which of his wins suggests top 5 then I might believe it
An awful lot of very fine heavies did better against Ali
Frazier,Foreman,Holmes,Norton etc amongst just his contemporaries but Liston didn't get close(slight issue with some substances in Ali's eyes aside!!)
With all due respect to Cleveland Williams I do not think he is a figher that defines where a heavyweight should be rated all time

skidd1 wrote:Liston did not just lose to Ali he didn't get close
His style was based upon intimidation.He met a fighter who wouldnt be bullied and he capitulated.Now he either threw the fight or quit and did the same in the second. Thats not top ten by a long way
How on earth he can be a top 5 heavy i really cant see based on who he beat or performed against his opposition

His style was not based on intimidation. He was better than most hence he won. Ali was simply better than all other heavyweights.

How do you think he became so intimidating? He got that way because of his brutal efficiency in the ring. Had be fought Rocky it would have been a no-contest. An easy night for Sonny.

I think Liston is truly one of the toughest HW's to rank. He was black balled for a long time and due to his supposed 'connections' he missed out on many fights in his prime so a large cloud of uncertainty is above him IMO.

Noted he demolished Patterson twice which deserves huge credit but the 2 other biggest fights of his career against Ali, he quit on his stool ion the 1st due to frustration knowing he couldn't catch Ali to beat him and then the 2nd fight which is always going to create debate.

I wouldn't rank him in the Top 10 but my knowledge of his era is not great so others will and have offered more insight.

Valero's Conscience wrote:I think Liston is truly one of the toughest HW's to rank. He was black balled for a long time and due to his supposed 'connections' he missed out on many fights in his prime so a large cloud of uncertainty is above him IMO.

Noted he demolished Patterson twice which deserves huge credit but the 2 other biggest fights of his career against Ali, he quit on his stool ion the 1st due to frustration knowing he couldn't catch Ali to beat him and then the 2nd fight which is always going to create debate.

I wouldn't rank him in the Top 10 but my knowledge of his era is not great so others will and have offered more insight.

You cant and shouldn't rate Liston on his performances against Ali. Ali would have beaten any HW in history during his first reign. Take Ali out of his record and he is an easy top 10 HW. His opponents were of a far superior calibre of a certain nameless HW who is often lauded on here as being one of the best.

Had be fought Rocky it would have been a no-contest. An easy night for Sonny.
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Yeah but he didn't, Az would be a nice and refreshing change if you could discuss a heavyweight without comparing him to Rocky. We know you don't rate hin, there are tribes as yet undiscovered by Bruce Parry who know this so predicting Liston or indeed any heavyweight would beat Rocky is as predictable as it is unnecessary.

Valero's Conscience wrote:I think Liston is truly one of the toughest HW's to rank. He was black balled for a long time and due to his supposed 'connections' he missed out on many fights in his prime so a large cloud of uncertainty is above him IMO.

Noted he demolished Patterson twice which deserves huge credit but the 2 other biggest fights of his career against Ali, he quit on his stool ion the 1st due to frustration knowing he couldn't catch Ali to beat him and then the 2nd fight which is always going to create debate.

I wouldn't rank him in the Top 10 but my knowledge of his era is not great so others will and have offered more insight.

Your not wrong Valero, he is a tough one to rank and even reading back through some excellent posts this morning, I find myself wondering again where he should place. Some convincing arguments have been made for his inclusion in the top ten, but equally so, many comments have been against such a lofty position.

Chris made an interesting comment regarding Liston faring favourably against other top ten shoe-ins. Anybody got any strong feelings this way? Ignoring the obvious example of Ali, who do people think Sonny would have beaten? I think Joe Louis, although having a few tricky moments, would beat Sonny over 15 rounds as would Larry Holmes who had all the tools to widely out-point, or even stop Liston late.

Az's assertion that Liston would have an "easy" night with Marciano is, frankly, not true. I am with Az in that I would expect Liston to beat Rocky, but I would imagine it would come late in the fight and probably on cuts, but no-one would ever have an "easy" night with Marciano. Jeffries would be an interesting one, over 15 round then I fancy Liston to win on points but over 25, then Jefrries reverses this or maybe stops Sonny late on.

I can see Liston stopping Dempsey in a war but losing a fairly wide decision to Jack Johnson over 15 or 25 rounds. Lennox Lewis is a tricky one as he struggled with a solid jab and can be caught and hurt, but, when he was respectful and even nervous of an opponent, he could control a fight behind the jab and stay out of harms way as well as any, late in his career anyway. I just have a sneaking suspicion that Sonny would back him up and catch him at some point later in the fight and take Lennox out. Foreman v Liston? Tough one to call for me. I think either could take the other out at a moments notice, but I would give a slight edge to big George and fancy him to find the right shots to get Sonny out of there, even though Sonny showed against Williams how destructive he could be against a bigger man.

rowley wrote: Had be fought Rocky it would have been a no-contest. An easy night for Sonny.
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Yeah but he didn't, Az would be a nice and refreshing change if you could discuss a heavyweight without comparing him to Rocky. We know you don't rate hin, there are tribes as yet undiscovered by Bruce Parry who know this so predicting Liston or indeed any heavyweight would beat Rocky is as predictable as it is unnecessary.

I just find it surprising that people could question Liston's record on the back of the 2 Ali fights and yet give Rocky a free pass on the back of quite frankly some shocking opponents who none of which were at their primes.

Anyway thats for another thread much later on.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Valero's Conscience wrote:I think Liston is truly one of the toughest HW's to rank. He was black balled for a long time and due to his supposed 'connections' he missed out on many fights in his prime so a large cloud of uncertainty is above him IMO.

Noted he demolished Patterson twice which deserves huge credit but the 2 other biggest fights of his career against Ali, he quit on his stool ion the 1st due to frustration knowing he couldn't catch Ali to beat him and then the 2nd fight which is always going to create debate.

I wouldn't rank him in the Top 10 but my knowledge of his era is not great so others will and have offered more insight.

Your not wrong Valero, he is a tough one to rank and even reading back through some excellent posts this morning, I find myself wondering again where he should place. Some convincing arguments have been made for his inclusion in the top ten, but equally so, many comments have been against such a lofty position.

Chris made an interesting comment regarding Liston faring favourably against other top ten shoe-ins. Anybody got any strong feelings this way? Ignoring the obvious example of Ali, who do people think Sonny would have beaten? I think Joe Louis, although having a few tricky moments, would beat Sonny over 15 rounds as would Larry Holmes who had all the tools to widely out-point, or even stop Liston late.

Az's assertion that Liston would have an "easy" night with Marciano is, frankly, not true. I am with Az in that I would expect Liston to beat Rocky, but I would imagine it would come late in the fight and probably on cuts, but no-one would ever have an "easy" night with Marciano. Jeffries would be an interesting one, over 15 round then I fancy Liston to win on points but over 25, then Jefrries reverses this or maybe stops Sonny late on.

I can see Liston stopping Dempsey in a war but losing a fairly wide decision to Jack Johnson over 15 or 25 rounds. Lennox Lewis is a tricky one as he struggled with a solid jab and can be caught and hurt, but, when he was respectful and even nervous of an opponent, he could control a fight behind the jab and stay out of harms way as well as any, late in his career anyway. I just have a sneaking suspicion that Sonny would back him up and catch him at some point later in the fight and take Lennox out. Foreman v Liston? Tough one to call for me. I think either could take the other out at a moments notice, but I would give a slight edge to big George and fancy him to find the right shots to get Sonny out of there, even though Sonny showed against Williams how destructive he could be against a bigger man.

I think Liston beats Lewis and all the other HWs you named with the exception of Foreman. That would be a pick 'em fight imo.

Thanks for the great article Tino, as Jeff already alluded earlier I'm not in Sonny's fan club

I've always maintained and not many share my opinion and totally understand why they don't. Firstly don't get me wrong, Liston was a great fighter of his time, but just not the top-tier all-time great that he's made out to be. When I see him on film I'm easily seduced by the manner in which he goes about his business, his skills and his power - and he carried a persona and presence with him for sure - but there's not enough to suggest he wasn't a little bit too much of a front-runner, or at least a guy who squandered the opportunity to achieve the upper tier of greatness.

The problem I have with him is the way he bowed out against Ali twice, If all champions performed like Liston did when he faced Clay/Ali the sport would miss out of all the epic proud championship battles that more or less define the greatness of the sport and it's most accomplished participants.

People give him a free pass because he lost to Clay/Ali, but the manner in which he lost overshadows any allowance that could be made for him losing. Liston is a good heavyweight but not a Great one IMO and would feature outside my top 10.

Jimmy

The manner in which Sonny quit in their first fight is not as bad as Duran's no mas yet Duran is firgiven and that incident is not used as a tool to beat him with.

Impossible to to rank Liston and it's only really the sparsity of overall talent in the heavyweight division that sees him make my top ten, the Ali defeats can't be ignored, he was comprehensively beaten twice and hasn't got enough top quality wins to make up for it. Stylistically would be a nightmare for almost anyone but his record doesn't match up.

azania wrote:Jimmy

The manner in which Sonny quit in their first fight is not as bad as Duran's no mas yet Duran is firgiven and that incident is not used as a tool to beat him with.

But on the flip side Duran has enough positives to make up for that especially the first Leonard fight but he could be rated higher were he not to have quit

azania wrote:Jimmy

The manner in which Sonny quit in their first fight is not as bad as Duran's no mas yet Duran is firgiven and that incident is not used as a tool to beat him with.

True Az, and good point. However I think Duran proved enough after that fight he could battle adversity and enhance his legacy, which is something we cant say about Liston, you've got to remember His "cleaning out of the division" is slightly overrated. he was still rising up the rankings in 1959 and 1960, and didn't secure the undisputed number 1 contender ranking until sep 1960. Became champ in 1962 and lost the title in 1964.

Jimmy Stuart wrote:Thanks for the great article Tino, as Jeff already alluded earlier I'm not in Sonny's fan club

I've always maintained and not many share my opinion and totally understand why they don't. Firstly don't get me wrong, Liston was a great fighter of his time, but just not the top-tier all-time great that he's made out to be. When I see him on film I'm easily seduced by the manner in which he goes about his business, his skills and his power - and he carried a persona and presence with him for sure - but there's not enough to suggest he wasn't a little bit too much of a front-runner, or at least a guy who squandered the opportunity to achieve the upper tier of greatness.

The problem I have with him is the way he bowed out against Ali twice, If all champions performed like Liston did when he faced Clay/Ali the sport would miss out of all the epic proud championship battles that more or less define the greatness of the sport and it's most accomplished participants.

People give him a free pass because he lost to Clay/Ali, but the manner in which he lost overshadows any allowance that could be made for him losing. Liston is a good heavyweight but not a Great one IMO and would feature outside my top 10.

Thanks Jimmy. Like you, I have him outside my top ten based on his limited, although by no means terrible, record and his championship performances against Ali, even though, as I mentioned earlier, I would expect him to beat some incumbents of my list. On balance, and obviously it depends on the criteria you wish to apply, then I can't find room for him in my list.

He sure is an enigma though is Sonny!

Thanks Jimmy. Like you, I have him outside my top ten based on his limited, although by no means terrible, record and his championship performances against Ali, even though, as I mentioned earlier, I would expect him to beat some incumbents of my list. On balance, and obviously it depends on the criteria you wish to apply, then I can't find room for him in my list.

He sure is an enigma though is Sonny!
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You're very welcome Tino, you're last comment probably sums it up he is a complete enigma. I can see why he features so high in many fans and expert list obviously I'm on the flip side, but I can't grumble at anyone who places him the top 10, such a waste IMO.

Think I'll stick my nose back in to this debate. I remember Jimmy not rating Liston as highly as me on the old 606, see he's stuck to his reasons which are understandable, even though I personally don't agree.

I have no issue with anyone putting Liston outside the top ten based on the Ali affairs, but I think it's a little harsh. There seems to be an opinion that he totally disgraced himself in both, and while I think that's fair for their second bout, I don't think the first should be held against him all that much. Truth be told, that loss was no worse than Frazier being dismantled by Foreman. The shoulder injury was legitimate, as demonstrated by the report and evidence given by Liston's doctor in the aftermath of the fight. Could he have continued? Maybe. Would it have altered the outcome of the fight? No, probably not. But I think to say that he simply quit because he was getting his backside handed to him does him a disservice.

Liston proved he had a fair amount of guts to go with his bullying. He fought Marshall mostly with a broken jaw, and I can't forget him being in grave trouble early on against the fearsome-punching Williams before roaring back to stop 'Big Cat' in the very next round. In addition to this, the likes of Machen, Folley and Valdes are as good, if not better than a lot of opposition that some other nailed-on top ten Heavyweights have faced before winning the title.

Thanks to Jimmy, by the way, who provided the exact dates of Liston's rise to the number one contender spot. I mentioned earlier that, regardless of how long he held the title, Liston by hook or crook proved that he was the best Heavyweight in the world for roughly five years. Using Jimmy's dates, it seems that it was in fact three and a half years between him becoming number one contender and losing the title. The fights with Patterson, ultimately, simply confirmed what most had suspected for a while; Patterson, even while champion, was simply never the best Heavyweight in the world. Given that Liston had previously demolished the punchers Patterson had been kept away from, I think it's only fair that the title of the world's best goes to Liston from September 1960 to February 1964.

So, more or less three and a half years as the best Heavyweight in the world, though he was the uncrowned champion for some of that period, like Ezzard Charles at 175 lb a decade before. Three and a half years as the world's best is around the same length of time that Tyson reigned, as well as Marciano and Frazier. Now obviously, the fact that he wasn't given the chance to conclusively prove it is a slight mark against him, but even so, I do think that Liston's supposed 'short time at the top' gets blown out of proportion a wee bit.

The first fight against Ali was, for me, simply a case of a very good fighter who was perhaps a little older than everyone knew running in to one of the most exceptional Heavyweights of them all turning in the best performance of his life. No shame in defeat there and if it had turned out to be a one-sided decision with Liston battling on with only one functioning shoulder, I think the focus on their second bout would be nowhere near as intense.

Liston's (relatively) short reign of terror and the second Ali fight stops him from figuring in the better end of a top ten, but let's not be unreasonable fellas! Anyway, no problem with anyone who sees it differently, but Sonny is just about a top ten Heavyweight for me.

I agree with your thoughts Chris...but I think the top 10 is pretty strong and for me Liston belongs in the top 15...

Ali, Louis, Johnson, Holmes, Dempsey, Marciano, Foreman, Jeffries, Holy and Frazier all have better claims in my opinion...

Chris, great reply and your reasonings are perfectly understandable.

I echo Truss in that he doesn't make the top 10 for me purely because I feel more comfortable with the claims of some other greats. But, Liston is very close for me, and there certainly are persuasive arguments for his inclusion. It is more a reflection on the quality of some other claiments, rather any than any searing criticism of Sonny.

Liston for me is 10-15. As has been mentioned, very good record before he became champion, best heavyweight in the world for a number of years. But for me, you can't just say look at his record minus the Ali fights. They are part of his legacy and he didn't fare well. Ultimately, he lost to the best fighter he faced convincingly twice. I don't mean to use it as a stick to beat him with but a few people seem to think it can be glossed over to an extent, not for me.

That aside, he holds good wins over some good heavies and was a supremely talented fighter, but there are at least ten who rank ahead of him for me.

You're welcome and great post Chris, I agree with Truss,Tino and Slash sentiments that top 10-15 is probably a fair assessment IMO.

Truss, only guy I squeeze in, in the names you mentioned is Lewis, its funny but before I joined 606 Lennox was a prominent figure in my rankings, but the likes Chris, Scott and others arguments swayed me and I'll always stand by that Lennox Lewis is probably the fighter I learned most about.

Jimmy Stuart wrote:You're welcome and great post Chris, I agree with Truss,Tino and Slash sentiments that top 10-15 is probably a fair assessment IMO.

Truss, only guy I squeeze in, in the names you mentioned is Lewis, its funny but before I joined 606 Lennox was a prominent figure in my rankings, but the likes Chris, Scott and others arguments swayed me and I'll always stand by that Lennox Lewis is probably the fighter I learned most about.

Jimmy, quick question for you if you don't mind, as I think you missed the Jeffries thread. How high do you (if you do) put the Boilermaker in your list?

Jimmy, quick question for you if you don't mind, as I think you missed the Jeffries thread. How high do you (if you do) put the Boilermaker in your list?
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Sorry I missed your thread Tino, Jeffries is in my top 5 mate. Thing I loved is that Jeffries continued to improve throughout his reign as champion.
The second Corbett fight and the Munroe fight were both measured destructions in which he outboxed his oponents. The press at the time noted an improvment in his technique and boxing skills.Truth is we probably never saw the best version of Jeffries. He would perhaps have got better still had he stayed in the game, always a firm believer in a fight to the finish Jeffries in his peak was virtually unbeatable.

Tend to agree Jimmy, there does seem to be something of a revival in appreciation for the boilermaker in recent times and he is a name that is seen occupying the higher echelons of most peoples lists with a little more frequency. Absolutely correct IMO because as you say he had pretty much every assett you could want for the longer distance fights and over 25 rounds takes some stopping. Now him and Sullivan to the finish would be something to see.

Same here, with regard to Jeffries.

I agree with every single word of Jimmy's post, above. Cue az to come and bore us senseless with his customary gibberish in the subject.

HumanWindmill wrote:Same here, with regard to Jeffries.

I agree with every single word of Jimmy's post, above. Cue az to come and bore us senseless with his customary gibberish in the subject.

In light of the above Jimmy, it is probably best you missed the thread as it tailed off badly towards the end!

As for Jeffries, glad you are as big a fan as me. I actually had him at number 3 before the Captain scolded me for having him above Johnson! It was a purely sentimental pick as I can appreciate that number 4 or 5 is probably a better place for him. Just find his myth and legend about as facinating as you can get. Unbeatable over 25 rounds although Az claimed it wouldn't matter as Herbie Hide or Frank Bruno would get him out of there in "double quick time". Herbie Hide, I kid you not!

Tend to agree Jimmy, there does seem to be something of a revival in appreciation for the boilermaker in recent times
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Be first to hold my hands up Jeff,Windy. James never used to receive such a kind rating from myself, only the past 10 years or so I've read and studied Jeffries, including Pollacks fine book, which boosted up the rankings and rightly so IMO, certainly neglected for too long on my behalf.

nbeatable over 25 rounds although Az claimed it wouldn't matter as Herbie Hide or Frank Bruno would get him out of there in "double quick time". Herbie Hide, I kid you not!
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Dear god Tino, that rivals his comment of Chris Arreola has faster hands than Joe Louis, cant remember if it was Az who also proclaimed Jamie Moore would beat Sugar Ray Robinson..

Modern diet and that works wonders.

Like yourself Jimmy reading Pollack's book has certainly helped in my appreciation of the man. Have recently finished his book on Hart and what is unbelievable is how well Jeff was regarded at the time. Hart was not a man lacking in bravery or willingness to mix it in good company and for large parts of his career he was quoted as saying "i'll fight anyone apart from Jeffries" likewise several newspapers commented on Hart and other fighters of the day with comments like "is a match for anyone, apart from Jeffries obviously"

Even allowing for the fact Herbie Hide would get him out of there in double quick time Jeff has to be a top five guy for me.