The right time to bow out

A memory stands out for me in 1992. I was at the World XV game in NZ's centenary year. Auckland were still a powerhouse team but there were many in the twilight of their careers. Players like Erroneous Clark and Lee Stencilcase never really made a big impression on the All Blacks but there were still a good deal of Auckland players who were considered integral members of the national side. On the wing, you had the excitement of Inga the winger and the legend that was John Kirwan. I was in the stands that was then called Lancaster Park (and to be honest still bears that name for me. I'm in denial over the subsequent name changes) and felt ashamed of my fellow one-eyed Cantabs. A legend of the game that had made the original run of 'that try' which had since then been replicated thousands of times (or at least attempted) by Kiwi kids of my generation came off the bench and made his way onto the field. His arrival was met with a chorus of boos from the stands. I felt disgusted. How could they let regional preferences get in the way of national loyalty? John Timu was a cut above anything Canterbury had to offer at that time and he was not fit to lace the boots of Kirwan in terms of his overall standing in NZ's national side. I felt angry that the crowd were putting province before country. I remember saying to my father 'why are they booing a legend of the game?'

Contrast that with the retirement of Ali Williams. Even Aucklanders met the announcement of his retirement with relief. How could someone who had served NZ rugby so loyally get such treatment from the NZ public. After all this was a guy who, after sustaining yet another ankle injury, played himself back into the national side by playing in some obscure English side (apologies to any fans of Nottingham) in order to recapture some form and fitness in order to put himself in the running for the 2011 RWC. Are we that cold when we believe a veteran player is no longer fit (in the sense of worthiness)to be picked? That lack of sentiment does not run to NZ. George Gregan encountered similar resistance in the twilight of his career, Ronan O'Gara was like a Cohen film sequel starring in O'Gara Why Art Thou, John Smit was picked ahead of Du Plessis much to the consternation of many Bok fans.

It's scary to think that icons of the NZ game, McCaw and Carter, are already experiencing the seeds of doubt as they near the end of their illustrious careers. It seems dirty to call into doubt their selection in the team but those doubts will quickly turn into unshakeable beliefs before too long, if they haven't already.

So what makes them stay on and outstay their welcome? Is it the players' fault. Is targeting a World Cup to bow out a selfish thing? Not if your name is Brad Thorn. A man like Frank Bunce where 'old age' was not seen as an impediment to their selection nor indeed a reason to call for an end to it. If a player believes he deserves to have the curtains drawn on his career at the time of his choosing, then that is a dangerous belief to hold. Mils Muliaina may well have wanted to play in that final and maybe he targeted or felt able to play in that final in 2011 but the coaching staff had other ideas and placed their faith in a younger player, Dagg.

So are coaches to blame? You can forgive a player who still retains a burning desire to play in the national side and will give their all until the axe is called on their career. Some choose to call when that axe falls instead of waiting for someone else to make the decision but Ali Williams didn't receive much in the way of gratitude or respect for doing so, for example, and his honourable actions elicited comments like he did what the coaches / selectors couldn't do (myself included!). That's the thanks you get for doing the right thing! As in zero gratitude.

When a coach continues to wheel out a veteran (not literally in a wheelchair. None has been that sadistic so far), the cry invariably is we are denying the development of a younger player. He's had his time and it's time for someone new now. Reading between the lines is not difficult. Ruck off. We need someone better now. Implying there is someone better or at least potentially better. In the case of BOD, for example, has he stuck around for as long as he has because there has been no other realistic option or is it more a case of his persistent selection denies any development of another player. If a player like Fourie leaves at some might say the height of his game then we believe we are being denied the talents of a player like JDV who seems to age like a good wine: he somehow gets better. He is called selfish or we call into question his motives. Kaino is another who falls into that equation. Someone like Flood, who hardly gained consistent selection turns his back on the national side and my impression is that many English fans see his departure with indifference. A significant number may see his departure with regret just like many in Ireland view with trepidation Sexton's move to Racing. Contrast that with Mowen, who turns down a chance as Wallaby captain to go to the World Cup, and many Aussie fans react to his decision with bewilderment.

Where do we draw the line between a player bowing out too early and a player bowing out too late? Does it depend on the makeup of the side? If a player leaves the national side and there is no clear equivalent is his departure met with more sadness than a player like Smit who had a clear alternative to him waiting already on the sidelines? Is it better when a coach doesn't pick a player or is it preferable for the player in question to make that call? Is it better to leave on a high or is it better to leave when you don't have it in you anymore? Burn that wick to the very end or go out in a bright flame so to speak? Should a veteran player be afforded that luxury or is the interests of the team paramount and individual priorities don't exist? If it's the latter then a player like JDV should be axed now. Would you make that call in the interests of the side gazing into your crystal ball focused on the 2015 RWC if you were Meyer? I sure wouldn't. But has it crossed Meyer's mind or should it? Will he or should he be looking closely at his performance and if his performance starts to slip how much grace do you give him to recover his form? Players like Habana, Conrad Smith or Jane are nearing the end of their careers. I get the impression their respective coaches are not wishing to pull the plug on their careers just yet but is there talk of early retirement yet?

It's certainly a difficult balance to make and I wouldn't want to be in the coach's or player's position to make that kind of call. Richie McCaw has said if the desire is not there he know it will be time to make that call. But what if the desire is still there but not the performance? Does he still gladly or at least freely make that call or is the call made for him?

I didnt read the whole article Kia as it is quite long but as Joe Schmidt says "age is but a number, the amount of tackles a player makes for example is a more important number".

People become obsessed with numbers. The great England footballer Stanley Mathews played his last top flight football match aged 50 and last competitive game aged 70.

Even if you level drops does that really mean you should stop playing completely? If you enjoy playing why not drop to a lower league and continue to play?

Former 70 cap Ireland centre Kevin Maggs for example still plays rugby for Mosley in the English second division. Why not I say.

Sivivatu is still playing and the NH rave about him. Why not indeed. Johhny Wilkinson still soldiers on though I did see a video of him being bowled over by an enormous Tongan and at that moment he probably felt he should've retired from all levels of rugby.

The article is about knowing when to bow out from your national side GG.

Haha. Like I said I didnt really read it really sorry. I usually enjoy your articles though. Off topic but dating a very nice Argentinian at the moment. The Argentinian dialect and accent is a real challenge to understand isnt it. Madre mio!!

Yes Sivivatu is incredible. Gatland once said he was the most naturally gifted player he has ever worked with.

If the axing of "elder" statesmen could be done without bringing emotion and loyalty into it I believe some players will have retired earlier from international rugby.

Each player's performance curve is different, if you think about the upwards curve of a sinus wave players may reach their potential at age 27, others however may reach their peak only at 30.

Problem is how does one measure the value of a player when you have to consider experience, pace, physical fitness, propensity for injury, strength, reaction etc.

Especially when a youngster is looking to force himself into a squad, he might not have the experience or have reached his peak, and that is the difficulty to know when to replace someone.

Talking of fourie du Preez as an example, he is better than Pienaar in every aspect, and currently better than any other South African local nine, but the problem is by having those two there, no youngster is receiving the opportunity or the experience, which makes the case for Meyer easy at the moment.

As soon as he actually brings in a youngster and provide him enough opportunity to gain experience and prove his worth, Meyer will always get away with his current selection policy at nine.

Until of course 2015 comes round and the world cup is over. Then we are in deep shyte.

I think Kia the answer depends on perspective.

As a fan it can be uncomfortable to watch players go on past their prime, even frustrating.

However I think a professional player has the right to carry on as long as they are motivated, even if they weren't quite what they were.

I'd rather see a player carry on past their best than go too soon....but its hard to judge it just right as sometimes there are no warning signs...as they say in boxing you can grow old overnight.

O'Driscoll is an obvious example - I wonder more and more whether he should have bowed out last season, maybe sooner.... but then at times he has shown glimpses of being as good as ever. If he can contribute to another Irish 6N or win something for Leinster then people will reflect very differently on whether he made the right call...but ultimately it's better not to be left wondering.

Wilkinson is playing some of the best rugby of his career, Giteau too so maybe some guys go too soon...it depends on the player. England have got it wrong on Nick Easter too who's been superb for Harlequins.

Should Umaga have left in 2005... in hindsight his leadership could have made the difference 2 years later in the high pressure moments.

Very difficult one. Leadership gulfs can destroy sides.

Keeping out a player like Bismarck is always wrong but Smit was so important to the mentality of the team... but he was out of shape and made a lot of personal mistakes by the end of his career.

I think the JDV issue is a big one. Frans is easily his superior at 12 and does JDV have the pace of 13, not just now but 18 months from now? Then again does SA have the leaders in that team to deal without him.   Without JDV you have Bismarck, Du Preez... the rest is pretty threadbare.... and you need veterans on the pitch in big games.

Wilkinson is playing some of the best rugby of his career, Giteau too so maybe some guys go too soon...it depends on the player. England have got it wrong on Nick Easter too who's been superb for Harlequins.

Rodders,

Maybe thats because they retired early...they dont have the strains of international rugby...so just enjoy life with their clubs in the South of France (or where they happen to be)

fa0019 wrote:Very difficult one. Leadership gulfs can destroy sides.

Keeping out a player like Bismarck is always wrong but Smit was so important to the mentality of the team... but he was out of shape and made a lot of personal mistakes by the end of his career.

I think the JDV issue is a big one. Frans is easily his superior at 12 and does JDV have the pace of 13, not just now but 18 months from now? Then again does SA have the leaders in that team to deal without him.   Without JDV you have Bismarck, Du Preez... the rest is pretty threadbare.... and you need veterans on the pitch in big games.

FA,

Isnt that where you find out who your new leaders coming through are. Somtimes having so many older leaders can have younger players in awe....take a few of them out...and suddenly you'll see the younger guys with the leadership credentials stepping up when its backs to the walls time...

After the Castillian lisp GG I find any alternative form of Spanish difficult to comprehend but Argentina has its own club of peculiarities. Good meat though so ask her to cook you something from her country!

When do you trace the rise and decline of a player? When did Bod lose superhuman status if indeed he has. His resilience and ability to play through pain is more impressive than McCaw given how much rugby he has played.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:After the Castillian lisp GG I find any alternative form of Spanish difficult to comprehend but Argentina has its own club of peculiarities. Good meat though so ask her to cook you something from her country!

When do you trace the rise and decline of a player? When did Bod lose superhuman status if indeed he has. His resilience and ability to play through pain is more impressive than McCaw given how much rugby he has played.

I like the Castillian lisp but she makes fun of me for it. I have already established that she sadly cant cook or iron. Gutted, both could be game changers.

Its hard to trace the rise and decline of a player. Guys like O'Driscoll and John Smit are incredible at adapting as you know. While their lost effectiveness in some parts of their game they evolved to add enormous value in others. O'Driscoll at the breakdown etc. and Smit in leadership qualities. Sometimes their values can be very intangible and therefore very hard to quantify. I understand why on the surface lots of fans thought DuPlessis looked much better than Smit but I have always been really impressed with Smits leadership and communication skills and I think he really drove the Boks forward in their series win v the Lions in '09.

Aparently Joe Schmidt doesnt watch re runs of any matches but edited compilation profiles on each player for hours into the night after game day looking for ways in which each guy can improve. If anyone like O'Driscoll wasnt adding enough value I have no doubt Schmidt wouldnt pick him or anyone else for that matter.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Very difficult one. Leadership gulfs can destroy sides.

Keeping out a player like Bismarck is always wrong but Smit was so important to the mentality of the team... but he was out of shape and made a lot of personal mistakes by the end of his career.

I think the JDV issue is a big one. Frans is easily his superior at 12 and does JDV have the pace of 13, not just now but 18 months from now? Then again does SA have the leaders in that team to deal without him.   Without JDV you have Bismarck, Du Preez... the rest is pretty threadbare.... and you need veterans on the pitch in big games.

FA,

Isnt that where you find out who your new leaders coming through are. Somtimes having so many older leaders can have younger players in awe....take a few of them out...and suddenly you'll see the younger guys with the leadership credentials stepping up when its backs to the walls time...

That is true but I just don't see it from the current batch. Beast, Coenie, Jannie DP, Flip, Alberts, Vermeulen, JJ, Habana, Pietersen... none of them have leadership potential.

I would say Eben and Frans Louw do from the new batch but its takes time.

Absolutely...it doesnt just happen overnight...

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Sivivatu is still playing and the NH rave about him. Why not indeed. Johhny Wilkinson still soldiers on though I did see a video of him being bowled over by an enormous Tongan and at that moment he probably felt he should've retired from all levels of rugby.

The article is about knowing when to bow out from your national side GG.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrDWUGVakB4

Boom!

"...I'm getting too old for this $h!t!"

That was particularly brutal. Not sure too many OHs would stand up to that guy.

People have mentioned BOD, but I think BOD is bowing out at the perfect time. There are really two realistic long-term replacements for him one of which will be our first choice 13 at the RWC- Robbie Henshaw and Jared Payne.

Robbie Henshaw is right now the eager understudy, shadowing BOD at national team training and trying to learn everything he can. The coaches are having BOD directly mentor him this season- invaluable for him, but he's not quite ready to be a first choice test player. Jared Payne needs no mentor, he's one of the most accomplished backs in European club rugby at the moment, but he doesn't qualify for Ireland on residency until the summer.

Neither of these players is ready/eligible to take on the crown just yet. BOD is still the best Irish 13. In a few months he probably won't be. The end of the Six Nations would be great timing for an international retirement. It allows the coaches to look at new options on the summer tour to Argentina, away from the expectancy and the media pressure cooker that comes with the Six Nations.

AAhhh thats a car crash isnt it....but the guys twice Johnnys size.

Is he a regular for Tonga?

Thats a fearsome prospect...

Notch wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Sivivatu is still playing and the NH rave about him. Why not indeed. Johhny Wilkinson still soldiers on though I did see a video of him being bowled over by an enormous Tongan and at that moment he probably felt he should've retired from all levels of rugby.

The article is about knowing when to bow out from your national side GG.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrDWUGVakB4

Boom!

"...I'm getting too old for this $h!t!"

That was painful just watching it. Ouch.

Worth mentioning that Fonua is quite possibly the biggest player on the planet. 6'6 and 150kg in weight. I think even the most fearsome players would be trampled on by this beast.

Is anyone else bigger??? he makes Census Johnson look like Warwick Davis.

He reminds me of Jonah Lomu when playing for Wesley College and the crash test dummies lining up to 'tackle' him.

Notch you think BOD is bowing out at the right time. I don't have a problem with that but what do you think of a player announcing before the season has started that he will bow out at the end of the season. Is it his right to do so? I'm not talking specifically about BOD but any player.

If it's a veteran player, it's reasonable to assume that if fit you will be selected as you have been selected for the team. But the saying goes no one player is bigger than the team. The captain, for example, is not an automatic choice by right of his captaincy. You have to perform first and then get selected. Only problem is there do appear to be exceptions to the rule. If form were a requisite then Nonu would never have played for the ABs or he at least wouldn't have lasted long. The captain isn't an automatic choice by right but McCaw has returned to the fold when injured or not fully right and lacking match fitness. What message does it send to the younger members when an experienced player can set out the terms of his career? Maybe it can be viewed as a positive thing as establishing yourself in the team affords you certain luxuries not afforded to younger players. It helps if your team wins but imagine a veteran player announces I will retire at the end of the season and his team starts losing. Do we still respect his wishes or do we call for his head and any other who isn't performing? Or are the masses not the best opinion to follow. How many coaches have felt the chop after failure when persisting with them might have seen results similar to those of Graham Henry? How many players do we dismiss like Saili after a few games after isolated mistakes? Are we not just as equally fickle when it comes to experienced players? If they have one bad game do we suddenly start thinking they should've been sent packing a long time ago?

I agree Kia... I think it would be wrong for BOD to go 1 year from a RWC.... not for him but for Ireland.

How can they develop a replacement in that time? Both leadership wise and player wise?

It would benefit Ireland if he went now (if he is indeed retiring pre world cup) IMO.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Sivivatu is still playing and the NH rave about him. Why not indeed. Johhny Wilkinson still soldiers on though I did see a video of him being bowled over by an enormous Tongan and at that moment he probably felt he should've retired from all levels of rugby.

The article is about knowing when to bow out from your national side GG.

wilko won european player of the year last year. and got persuaded by Toulon to postpone his retirement by a year. some players are just too good to retire when their form or speed dips just a bit from peak. playing for toulon, last year's HC champions, and maybe this years, is not what i would call stepping down from international rugby in terms of quality. intensity and injury-risk-wise maybe.

Ireland's huge challenge is that if they don't drop BoD now, the gaping hole he will leave (figuratively) going into RWC 2015 will sink them. They need the next 18 months to develop and promote the next talismanic players. BoD might cut it in 6N. RWC2015 no chance.

quinsforever wrote:Ireland's huge challenge is that if they don't drop BoD now, the gaping hole he will leave (figuratively) going into RWC 2015 will sink them. They need the next 18 months to develop and promote the next talismanic players. BoD might cut it in 6N. RWC2015 no chance.

Agree with this

its ok for BOD to say he will retire making it easy for Schmidt but in my view he should have taken Gatland's hint and realized he is past his best

In remaining he will take up a crucial slot that a new player should be in, to prep for RWC because there is no way he is not going to be playing

I have said it here before, but there was a time (back in the 60s and 70s) when it was said that it was harder for a player to get OFF the Irish team than to get on it. I still remember with cringing embarrassment when Tony O'Reilly was recalled to play against England in the 1970 5Ns (his last game was in the 1963 5Ns). He arrived on the pitch definitely showing the developing paunch of the successful businessman. Mike Gibson played until he was 37 1/2 years old and the real sadness was in his last few years on the Ireland team he was a pale shadow of the inspirational player he had been whether as OH or IC.

I believe BOD has been incredibly selfish in hanging on. I have said this to some Irish friends and they have said "He has nothing else to do once he finishes playing rugby". I am not in a position to comment on that and it does surprise me as I thought there was a fairly decent post-playing system in place in Ireland (e.g. Jerry Flannery going to Arsenal as a strength and conditioning coach, he got all his qualifications whilst playing at Munster). So what are BOD's post-rugby career plans?

I thought he would go after RWC2011. But then there was the tour to NZ the following summer and I understood him hanging on for that. I really really thought he would go after that. But no.

So now, here we are 18 months out from the next RWC and who is playing OC for Ireland? BOD. Will he be there for RWC2015? No, even he agrees with that. We had three internationals in the autumn on which nothing was riding. It didn't matter where we ended up in the rankings, those were important at the end of 2012 for the RWC draw. Our position at the end of 2013 meant nothing.

The 6Ns is a major source of income for the IRFU and it is therefore important that the team performs in that competition. Last autumn was the time to try new centre partnerships and start to work on a pairing for the future. But unfortunately BOD has achieved something akin to god-like status in Irish rugby and appears to be undroppable. If HE says he is available to play then he gets picked. He has, sadly, become bigger than the team. I see no reason why he couldn't have retired from international duty (lots of other players do that) and continue playing at club level; no reason why he could not have been brought in to the team camp to mentor Henshaw - except we surely have coaches to do that.

A player should be retired when it is apparent that they have become bigger than the team.

In my wildest imaginings JS will pick Henshaw for this year's 6Ns - I am dreaming, but tread softly ....

Kia all very valid points and in principal I agree with them all - the same applied to ROG carrying on until last season - at least POC and D'arcy intended on carrying on until 2015.

That said this was a two way decision - Joe and the IRFU made the offer and convinced him to stay, knowing his age profile, physical status and intention to retire at the end of the season....so you can't just put it down to BOD being selfish, we have to assume that the coaches are getting something here too.

It is clear to me that the IRFU and Schmidt are putting all their eggs in two baskets to replace BOD -Henshaw and Payne - and the fact that neither are ready maybe means there is some logic to BOD playing on - the alternative is to select a stop gap like Earls or Cave.

We'll know in 2 years whether this was the right approach or not.

Rodders, do not worship false idols. There is only one Kia.   

For anyone that doesnt know Dublin there is a really tall spike/monument right in the city centre. I believe they are currently looking to give it a new name, Mandela monument was one name thrown out. However, many people think it should be named after a great Irish man.

BODs rod anyone? Nice retirement present.

What's the current name and why the change GG?

Bo'delisk?

GunsGerms wrote:For anyone that doesnt know Dublin there is a really tall spike/monument right in the city centre. I believe they are currently looking to give it a new name, Mandela monument was one name thrown out. However, many people think it should be named after a great Irish man.

BODs rod anyone? Nice retirement present.

It'd probably get knocked over by a kiwi and we'd never hear the end of it.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:What's the current name and why the change GG?

Its called the spire. See below:



It think they just want to name it after someone. It Nelson Mandela had been proposed but was rejected:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dublins-spire-will-not-be-named-in-honour-of-the-late-nelson-mandela-29919852.html

Interesting there used to be a monument called Nelsons column there which was blown up by the IRA (I think).

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:For anyone that doesnt know Dublin there is a really tall spike/monument right in the city centre. I believe they are currently looking to give it a new name, Mandela monument was one name thrown out. However, many people think it should be named after a great Irish man.

BODs rod anyone? Nice retirement present.

It'd probably get knocked over by a kiwi and we'd never hear the end of it.

Thats really funny GE. Thought you were a little wittier than that?

Cheers GG. Was last in Dublin in 2007.
Why don't they call it A spire.

Deep, meaningful, proactive, inspiring. Got Turner Prize written all over it.

GunsGerms wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:For anyone that doesnt know Dublin there is a really tall spike/monument right in the city centre. I believe they are currently looking to give it a new name, Mandela monument was one name thrown out. However, many people think it should be named after a great Irish man.

BODs rod anyone? Nice retirement present.

It'd probably get knocked over by a kiwi and we'd never hear the end of it.

Thats really funny GE. Thought you were a little wittier than that?

Twisted my back and quit smoking. It's hard to be clever when you're constantly irritated and in agonising pain.

GunsGerms wrote:For anyone that doesnt know Dublin there is a really tall spike/monument right in the city centre. I believe they are currently looking to give it a new name, Mandela monument was one name thrown out. However, many people think it should be named after a great Irish man.

BODs rod anyone? Nice retirement present.

I thought that was built for the Millennium and called the Millennium spear or something like that?

I thought it was called the spike?

Sounds like it was called a load of five knuckle shuffle...

GloriousEmpire wrote:
Twisted my back and quit smoking. It's hard to be clever when you're constantly irritated and in agonising pain.

Feel your pain. I had my second root canal treatment on the same tooth last night. When I got home the temporary filling fell out.

I have spent €3000 and had 8 dental apointments on the same tooth. Want to kill someone.

Hang in there on the cigarette quitting.

That's actually better than w@nk.

It has a few names:

Spire of Dublin
Millennium spire
Monument of light

Nicknames:
spike
needle
stilleto
The Binge Syringe,
The Stiletto in the Ghetto,
The Nail in the Pale,
The Pin in the Bin.

GunsGerms wrote:Hang in there on the cigarette quitting.

Or you could do a BOD and quit next year instead....   

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Cheers GG. Was last in Dublin in 2007.
Why don't they call it A spire.

Deep, meaningful, proactive, inspiring. Got Turner Prize written all over it.

Yep good name actually. Would be better than what it is currently called.

Sorry for derailing your article by the way.

No worries mate. Your input has been inspiring.   

Ha. My mind does wander quite easliy.

GunsGerms wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:
Twisted my back and quit smoking. It's hard to be clever when you're constantly irritated and in agonising pain.

Feel your pain. I had my second root canal treatment on the same tooth last night. When I got home the temporary filling fell out.

I have spent €3000 and had 8 dental apointments on the same tooth. Want to kill someone.

Hang in there on the cigarette quitting.

Seriously? That's horrific. I had an awful time with a botched root canal procedure. In the end I had it fixed by a specialist endodontist on Harley Street. Not only the most futuristic medical experiment I'd ever had (felt like I was being treated on the bridge of the starship enterprise), but he charged me just £700 to fix up the whole botched mess, and I haven't had a days trouble since.  Plus the most med pain killers were awesome.

If you're still getting grief let me know and I'll pass on his details.  The cosmetics to fix up the broken tooth on top afterwards cost a fair whack, but if I had been a bit more modest about appearance, that too could've been avoided.

I just remember the shambles that was England's 2011 RWC with Lewis Moody as Captain. A shadow of his former self, he was being held together with band aids, staples, sticky-back plastic, tubigrip and various medical marvels. He played in 4 RWC games, being replaced in 3 of them. Let's not forget he was appointed Captain for the 2011 6 Nations (which England won) but didn't play a single minute.

I can understand the desire to play at "one last World Cup", but he was only there on past merits (Martin Johnson former long-time clubmate having something to do with this maybe?). Haskell, Wood, Croft & Robshaw should have all been selected before him.

It was a very sad way for him to bow out. At least Corry went before he declined.

have a mental image GE...

http://dentalcollectibles.com/mcart/images/shrek.jpg

and if that upsets you, and you are feeling homesick and picked on, here's a more sexy Shrek image for you

http://modernfarmer.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Shrek1.jpg

I actually didn't think Moody outstayed his welcome.

He was a good player and he offered leadership... the problem was that Johnson was continually rebelled against (which is amazing really). To place the problems on his door is an obtuse outlook on things IMO. Johnson simply didn't have the respect in the dressing room... that was apparent well before Moody got back in the team and regained the captaincy... it was endemic.

fa0019 wrote:I actually didn't think Moody outstayed his welcome.

He was a good player and he offered leadership... the problem was that Johnson was continually rebelled against (which is amazing really). To place the problems on his door is an obtuse outlook on things IMO. Johnson simply didn't have the respect in the dressing room... that was apparent well before Moody got back in the team and regained the captaincy... it was endemic.

where do you get this from? please direct me to some sources or books to read, because this genuinely surprises me.

"lost the dressing room" is a very specific and harsh critique of any manager or coach.

i would find it hard to imagine that martin johnson ever lost the respect of his players. there were plenty of other people in the england setup around johnson with vastly more coaching experience than him so what you are saying can only refer to his leadership and man management skills. you may well be right but i would love to read more about that.