New European cup. (Or whatever it's called) Qualification agreed? Part 2

First topic message reminder :

A continuation of the previous thread. For everyone with more to say.

quinsforever wrote:this is bad. very bad. if this were marriage i think it would be accurately described as "irreconcilable differences"

the reasons they are staying away from todays mtg according to Osprey's Davies:

""ERC is run by the unions and they, this week, have decided not to pay the regions in Wales £800,000 that was due to them.
"Nobody had the decency to tell anybody. This was to enable the regions to pay the players' wages.
"The WRU FD [financial director] Steve Phillips attended the meeting that decided not to make the payment [and] did not inform the regions and the regions had to make arrangements to pay the wages themselves.
"We are not going to turn up there as one vote among many and just be like a nodding donkey. There's just no point.
"There's nothing we can contribute and nothing they would want us to contribute."
He added: "We are owed a lot of money and maybe it's a way of the union [WRU] threatening us again.
"They have a history of threatening and using the big stick.
"That's one of the reasons why we no longer wish to be party to an organisation that's run by the unions.
"We would rather be dealing with proper business people who act in good faith."

Of course the regions weren't able to read the minutes of the meeting that they were sent - or perhaps email was just being unreliable?!

asbo, that is what they have been trying to do. but it's not as easy as just clicking your fingers.

unfortunately they refused to trudge silently to their own slow death, and are now kicking and screaming and there are 4 huge problems for the WRU

i) the regions have a lot of passionate support, so it will get political
ii) the regions employ indirectly over 1,000 people so there's a human and economic impact
iii) the WRU cannot afford to replicate the Regions with all their infrastructure (was like Ireland nationalising/guaranteeing their banks - it bust the country), so therefore
iv) who would step in as "backers" to replace the current ones after seeing the way WRU plays power games?

asbo, i am genuinely shocked that your sympathies lie with roger lewis, a power hungry, spotlight hogging former BBC Radio man who has no rugby background, rather than clubs, no matter who amateurly they are run.

quinsforever wrote:asbo, i am genuinely shocked that your sympathies lie with roger lewis, a power hungry, spotlight hogging former BBC Radio man who has no rugby background, rather than clubs, no matter who amateurly they are run.

And McCafferty's background is????

Two points.

Firstly; well that new hope for a common future didn't last too long did it? No sooner than someone said they hoped the upcoming meeting would have some hope of joining everyone onto some common page of understanding - the Welsh, once again, cry foul.

Secondly; whatever about the success of the Welsh International side (WRU!) the Regions are certainly in no strong position to be dictating how any European 'club/regional' game should be run into the future. No, I think we should allow the successful elements of the European club scene to hold the sway on that one, not the Welsh Regions handing out demands and ultimatums.

quinsforever wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:How many votes do the RRW want.

They are one half of one country in a 6 Nation set up.

My maths say that is 1/12 hence they are a minority voice.
Its called democracy

missing the point again.

they dont want any votes in the current setup. they dont want to appear to be giving any kind of endorsement to it whatsoever. they do not trust WRU or ERC. at all. and want no part of it.

Not missing the point I get that but why should the internal chaos that is Welsh rugby destroy Rugby in whole swaths of the NH.

The RRW are like spoilt brats who cant get their own way.
To extend the anaolgy the parent may be an awful parent, WRU, but that doesn't excuse the unacceptable behaviour of the child.
We have a dysfunctional family bring the whole neighbourhood down

quinsforever wrote: i) the regions have a lot of passionate support, so it will get political

What has stood out with respect to support is how poor it has been given the catchement area of the REgions. Also many Welsh supports have totally failed to engage with the REgions

quinsforever wrote: ii) the regions employ indirectly over 1,000 people so there's a human and economic impact

That figure has been debunked and 200 seems a more realistic figure. Any new Regions/Clubs would of course employ people in their own right/

quinsforever wrote: iii) the WRU cannot afford to replicate the Regions with all their infrastructure (was like Ireland nationalising/guaranteeing their banks - it bust the country)

What Ireland can do, in Rugby, Wales can do if they get organized. The finacial situation is very similar. On the wider front Ireland is no longer in hand out requiring handouts from the EU.

quinsforever wrote: iv) who would step in as "backers" to replace the current ones after seeing the way WRU plays power games?

If Wales structure it right they dont need backers anymore than Ireland i.e. the occassional helpful, but not key, gift

quinsforever wrote:this is bad. very bad. if this were marriage i think it would be accurately described as "irreconcilable differences"

the reasons they are staying away from todays mtg according to Osprey's Davies:

""ERC is run by the unions and they, this week, have decided not to pay the regions in Wales £800,000 that was due to them.
"Nobody had the decency to tell anybody. This was to enable the regions to pay the players' wages.
"The WRU FD [financial director] Steve Phillips attended the meeting that decided not to make the payment [and] did not inform the regions and the regions had to make arrangements to pay the wages themselves.
"We are not going to turn up there as one vote among many and just be like a nodding donkey. There's just no point.
"There's nothing we can contribute and nothing they would want us to contribute."
He added: "We are owed a lot of money and maybe it's a way of the union [WRU] threatening us again.
"They have a history of threatening and using the big stick.
"That's one of the reasons why we no longer wish to be party to an organisation that's run by the unions.
"We would rather be dealing with proper business people who act in good faith."

quins, this is the same Rob Davies which came up with the conspiracy theory that WRU, along with Scarlets, were trying to destroy Ospreys. Something which was reported in The Rugby Paper, and something that The Rugby Paper had to issue an apology to the WRU for.
It seems that Lewis' comments about RRW/PRL the previous night have hit home. Davies was more than a little emotional, I believe.
So is it Lewis or Davies that is lying? Well, Lewis claimed earlier that WRU had met with the Blues in discussions on Warbs, and central contracts. Apparently Blues came to an understanding, whatever that means, and Blues have never come out and refuted this. I'm sure Warbs knows the truth of it....It was also reported in WalesOnline that WRU and regions had come close to agreeing dual contracts before all this really kicked off. If this is true, it doesn't have to mean Davies is lying. It could be that Davies isn't in the loop. It could be that one region doesn't really know of WRU dealings with other regions.

geoff998rugby wrote:The RRW are like spoilt brats who cant get their own way.
To extend the anaolgy the parent may be an awful parent, WRU, but that doesn't excuse the unacceptable behaviour of the child.
We have a dysfunctional family bring the whole neighbourhood down

Aren't the WRU saying "we want you to commit suicide otherwise we will kill you". The regions are saying "we'll take as many of you out as we can on our way down"

HammerofThunor wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:The RRW are like spoilt brats who cant get their own way.
To extend the anaolgy the parent may be an awful parent, WRU, but that doesn't excuse the unacceptable behaviour of the child.
We have a dysfunctional family bring the whole neighbourhood down

Aren't the WRU saying "we want you to commit suicide otherwise we will kill you". The regions are saying "we'll take as many of you out as we can on our way down"

Maybe the RRW, but not the regions. WRU get control of the regions then no need to hit the self-destruct button. So you think RRW are operating a scorched earth policy? All for the good of Welsh rugby...

HammerofThunor wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:The RRW are like spoilt brats who cant get their own way.
To extend the anaolgy the parent may be an awful parent, WRU, but that doesn't excuse the unacceptable behaviour of the child.
We have a dysfunctional family bring the whole neighbourhood down

Aren't the WRU saying "we want you to commit suicide otherwise we will kill you". The regions are saying "we'll take as many of you out as we can on our way down"

Are they?  And why would they say that?  What would be in it for WRU to see Regional rugby collapse again only to have to start at the very beginning again?

So maybe the tagline is more "Aren't the Regions saying that the WRU are saying 'we want you to commit suicide otherwise we will kill you'.

Meanwhile too, the Regions are being very patriotic with their counter offer, ain't they  "we'll take as many of you out as we can on our way down"?  Nice negotiating position to adopt when you want harmony.

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:The RRW are like spoilt brats who cant get their own way.
To extend the anaolgy the parent may be an awful parent, WRU, but that doesn't excuse the unacceptable behaviour of the child.
We have a dysfunctional family bring the whole neighbourhood down

Aren't the WRU saying "we want you to commit suicide otherwise we will kill you". The regions are saying "we'll take as many of you out as we can on our way down"

Are they?  And why would they say that?  What would be in it for WRU to see Regional rugby collapse again only to have to start at the very beginning again?

So maybe the tagline is more "Aren't the Regions saying that the WRU are saying 'we want you to commit suicide otherwise we will kill you'.

Meanwhile too, the Regions are being very patriotic with their counter offer, ain't they  "we'll take as many of you out as we can on our way down"?  Nice negotiating position to adopt when you want harmony.

Because in 5 years time they will hvae paid off the Millenium Stadium. That will release significant funds, perhaps enough to 4 WRU funded teams. What they really want is for the 4 regions to sign up to the current deal that sqeezes them and sqeezes them until they can't carry on. Then the WRU can sweep in and save the day, thanks to their foresight to pay of the MS early. But now is too soon.

At least that's what the voices in my head tell me.

But yes, the regions are saying the WRU are saying "quote" (disclaimer, the quote referenced is not a true quote)

And as far as I'm aware the only involvement of the PRL in this is that they think the idea of an Anglo-Welsh league would be pretty nifty.

They've never said (that I've seen) that they will go ahead with a competition without the unions' approval.

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:asbo, i am genuinely shocked that your sympathies lie with roger lewis, a power hungry, spotlight hogging former BBC Radio man who has no rugby background, rather than clubs, no matter who amateurly they are run.

And McCafferty's background is????

and mccafferty has ZERO power.

I see Gwlad is now equating the Unions as the KKK and the stand of the RRW as the equivalent of Rosa Parks.

It is a bizarre place but great entertainment to see how the delusional act

I have to say I have reached a point where I hope the Irish and English can reach an agreement on a revamp European Cup (I believe that is the key to unlockin this) - it would leave the regions totally screwed.

HammerofThunor wrote:And as far as I'm aware the only involvement of the PRL in this is that they think the idea of an Anglo-Welsh league would be pretty nifty.

They've never said (that I've seen) that they will go ahead with a competition without the unions' approval.

A very good point that needs to be made.
The Regions seem to have decided to jump into a life raft that may well not be there.

The Regions are being 'squeezed' by lack of interest.  Mainly, I'd suggest a lack of interest by the very same people who seem most closely associated with the regional arguments and position.

The Regions aren't supported by regional rugby fans in sufficient numbers for it to be viable right now (That's not me talking that's the history of arguments over and back between Regional fans on this here site over the years)

So - the Regions aren't supported enough and the Regional players don't give enough of themselves (perhaps as a consequence of that lack of passionate and numerous support)

Blame all that on the WRU?  The Regions seem to be slowly talking themselves down as they seem to always want more money than they themselves generate.  Where does the money go?  Into a black hole where nothing materialises in money generation the other side?  Not the most perfect business model.

HammerofThunor wrote:And as far as I'm aware the only involvement of the PRL in this is that they think the idea of an Anglo-Welsh league would be pretty nifty.

They've never said (that I've seen) that they will go ahead with a competition without the unions' approval.

Maybe because PRL are contracted by RFU until 2016, and so doing most of their fighting now through RRW? PRL are at the heart of all this mess, but it's true that conflict of interests have existed between region and WRU from the beginning.
PRL have gone very quiet as the Welsh civil war escalated, although they could well be pulling strings. I don't really believe PRL want the regions in AP. I do believe PRL will leave RRW stranded if PRL sign up to European competition.

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:asbo, i am genuinely shocked that your sympathies lie with roger lewis, a power hungry, spotlight hogging former BBC Radio man who has no rugby background, rather than clubs, no matter who amateurly they are run.

And McCafferty's background is????

and mccafferty has ZERO power.

he has the power to mess up rugby Union in Europe for the past five or six months. That's power, quins. The power to disrupt, to divide, to introduce bad blood and intransigent attitudes. Oh he has plenty of power... you're just not looking in the right wallsafe to find it

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote: i) the regions have a lot of passionate support, so it will get political

What has stood out with respect to support is how poor it has been given the catchement area of the REgions. Also many Welsh supports have totally failed to engage with the REgionsDID YOU SEE THE SCRUM V LIVE DEBATE? I SUGGEST YOU WATCH IT. SEEMS LIKE THEY FOUND IT MUCH MUCH HARDER TO FIND SUPPORTERS OF THE WRU.

quinsforever wrote: ii) the regions employ indirectly over 1,000 people so there's a human and economic impact

That figure has been debunked and 200 seems a more realistic figure. Any new Regions/Clubs would of course employ people in their own right/YOUR DEBATE WITH SCARLETSPRIDERMAN HARDLY COUNTS AS DEBUNKED. I PREFER TO BELIEVE THE CEO OF ONE OF THE REGIONS.

quinsforever wrote: iii) the WRU cannot afford to replicate the Regions with all their infrastructure (was like Ireland nationalising/guaranteeing their banks - it bust the country)

What Ireland can do, in Rugby, Wales can do if they get organized. The finacial situation is very similar. On the wider front Ireland is no longer in hand out requiring handouts from the EU.THE FINANCIAL SITUATION IS NOT SIMILAR. PROVINCES HAVE EXISTED ON TOP OF CLUBS IN IRELAND FOR OVER 100 YEARS. IT WAS A NATURAL FIT/EVOLUTION. THERE IS NO SUCH EASY SOLUTION IN WALES. FOR YOU TO SAY OTHERWISE IS FANTASY. ASK ANY WELSHMAN. THEN ASK ANOTHER ONE AND YOU WILL GET A DIFFERENT OPINION ON THIS ISSUE.

quinsforever wrote: iv) who would step in as "backers" to replace the current ones after seeing the way WRU plays power games?  

If Wales structure it right they dont need backers anymore than Ireland i.e. the occassional helpful, but not key, gift

OF COURSE THEY NEED FINANCIAL BACKERS IF THEY ARE LOSING MONEY. UNLESS YOU THINK BRAND NEW ARTIFICIAL REGIONS WOULD SOMEHOW HAVE DOUBLE THE ATTENDANCE AND GREATER SUCCESS? IF THE WRU SETS UP NEW REGIONS THEY WILL EITHER NEED NEW BACKERS OR THE WRU WILL, AS I SAID, HAVE TO NATIONALISE THE LOSSES. THAT IS AN IRREFUTABLE FACT. THE LOSSES HAVE TO BE BORNE BY SOMEONE.

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:asbo, i am genuinely shocked that your sympathies lie with roger lewis, a power hungry, spotlight hogging former BBC Radio man who has no rugby background, rather than clubs, no matter who amateurly they are run.

And McCafferty's background is????

and mccafferty has ZERO power.

he has the power to mess up rugby Union in Europe for the past five or six months.  That's power, quins.  The power to disrupt, to divide, to introduce bad blood and intransigent attitudes.  Oh he has plenty of power... you're just not looking in the right wallsafe to find it

he has no power whatsoever. he is doing what he has been told to do by the owners and chairman of the AP clubs. what he has been told unanimously to do according to their last meeting.

he is in nothing like the position of roger lewis at the wru. do you know how hard it would be for the wru to get rid of him? look at how hard it was to get rid of martyn thomas at the RFU?

to get rid of mccafferty would require a single conference call of the club bosses.

that is why mccafferty has zero power. if he fails to do exactly what the AP clubs want he will be out on his ear in a second.

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote: i) the regions have a lot of passionate support, so it will get political

What has stood out with respect to support is how poor it has been given the catchement area of the REgions. Also many Welsh supports have totally failed to engage with the REgions

 
 
Going by % of their catchment area to attendance, how far are the regions behind?  Just curious as Dublin had a population of 527,612 (in 2011) and Leinster had a average attendance of 21,511.  So by just taking the base town/city that is 4.77% attendance.  Llanelli has a population of 46,526 (in 2011) and an average attendance of 7,306.  So again by base town/city that is 15.7% attendance. Going by that I would sayt he Scarlets are theoretically punching way above their weight when it comes to attendances.
 
 
 

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote: ii) the regions employ indirectly over 1,000 people so there's a human and economic impact

That figure has been debunked and 200 seems a more realistic figure. Any new Regions/Clubs would of course employ people in their own right/

 
200 people?  The regions employ more than that DIRECTLY, seeing as the original quote is INDIRECTLY, I really can't see how you can say it has been debunked.  Although yes, if the regions were to be replaced by four new teams, then the number of people employed directly and indirectly should not really change.
 
 
 

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:  iii) the WRU cannot afford to replicate the Regions with all their infrastructure (was like Ireland nationalising/guaranteeing their banks - it bust the country)

 
What Ireland can do, in Rugby, Wales can do if they get organized. The finacial situation is very similar. On the wider front Ireland is no longer in hand out requiring handouts from the EU.

 
Again your right, there is no reason that the Welsh can not have the same system as the Irish, however we are still distances away from that.  Keeping the regions as they are, and the union buying the money men out (which would be the cheapest and most logical solution) would cost way more than the union can/will be willing to spend.
 

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote: iv) who would step in as "backers" to replace the current ones after seeing the way WRU plays power games?  

If Wales structure it right they dont need backers anymore than Ireland i.e. the occassional helpful, but not key, gift

 
Pretty much the same answer as the last one, it is going to take time and money.  And these are two things the WRU, at the moment, seem un-keen on spending.  Although if they were to be willing to buy the backers out, say 10% a season, then in ten years we may get to that point too.

HammerofThunor wrote:And as far as I'm aware the only involvement of the PRL in this is that they think the idea of an Anglo-Welsh league would be pretty nifty.

They've never said (that I've seen) that they will go ahead with a competition without the unions' approval.

On this point, beyond a few soundbites from Nigel Wray and co., has there ever been a proper formal offer or even disucssions of an offer of an Anglo-Welsh league ?

As this has to be in place for the start of next season, that's a lot of fences to jump - getting all the Jeff clubs on board, dealing with promotion/relegation, the position of the Championship clubs, TV deals, getting out or restructuring the Anglo-Welsh and B & I cups, sorting out fixture lists, etc.

And that's assuming that RRW win the right to take the teams into the Jeff, and there are no objections from WRU, RFU and the IRB.

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:asbo, i am genuinely shocked that your sympathies lie with roger lewis, a power hungry, spotlight hogging former BBC Radio man who has no rugby background, rather than clubs, no matter who amateurly they are run.

And McCafferty's background is????

and mccafferty has ZERO power.

he has the power to mess up rugby Union in Europe for the past five or six months.  That's power, quins.  The power to disrupt, to divide, to introduce bad blood and intransigent attitudes.  Oh he has plenty of power... you're just not looking in the right wallsafe to find it

he has no power whatsoever. he is doing what he has been told to do by the owners and chairman of the AP clubs. what he has been told unanimously to do according to their last meeting.

he is in nothing like the position of roger lewis at the wru. do you know how hard it would be for the wru to get rid of him? look at how hard it was to get rid of martyn thomas at the RFU?

to get rid of mccafferty would require a single conference call of the club bosses.

that is why mccafferty has zero power. if he fails to do exactly what the AP clubs want he will be out on his ear in a second.

He has power, quins, even if that power is bestowed upon him by those of AP. Due to his position within PRL he also has the power to influence. Do you really think he is simply doing the bidding of those he represents, or is he more likely to be leading them? More likely leading them, methinks.

I'll not respond Quins because I diagree on every point you make we clearly have completely different visions of how club rugby should evolve in general and Wales in particular

RRW and PRL have signed Heads of Agreement on an anglo-welsh league.

that's really nothing more than a Letter of Intent, and it apparently includes language that makes it clear the RCC with the extra moolah is the preferred choice.

But the fact they have signed something is reasonably significant. And would mean that pressure is being applied on the RFU (by AP clubs) to either deliver the extra money that comes with BT's new euro cup, or seriously consider an anglo welsh league.

the fact that the PRL made it clear that the welsh clubs would HAVE to eligible for relegation shows me that this is being seriously considered.

quinsforever wrote:
that is why mccafferty has zero power. if he fails to do exactly what the AP clubs want he will be out on his ear in a second.

Quins - genuine question, do you know if PRL represent the AP clubs or do they represent the clubs who hold the shares? Because IIRC aren't some of the shareholders currently outside the AP - Bristol springs to mind and I think although Leeds sold their share to Exeter there was a buy back clause that Leeds could invoke under certain circumstances.

Would this affect the PRL postion regarding an AW league if their own shareholders were going to be excluded to allow other teams in?

geoff998rugby wrote:I'll not respond Quins because I diagree on every point you make we clearly have completely different visions of how club rugby should evolve in general and Wales in particular

you say its straightforwards yet you decline to provide any actual concrete suggestions.

the points i make recognise the complexity and subtlety of club rugby in wales. the points you make ignore and gloss over them.

wales is not ireland. while you might ache for wales's national team success, you cannot see that the irish provincial model and it's extraordinary success, are shoes that won't fit in wales.

Irish Londoner wrote:

quinsforever wrote:
that is why mccafferty has zero power. if he fails to do exactly what the AP clubs want he will be out on his ear in a second.

Quins - genuine question, do you know if PRL represent the AP clubs or do they represent the clubs who hold the shares? Because IIRC aren't some of the shareholders currently outside the AP - Bristol springs to mind and I think although Leeds sold their share to Exeter there was a buy back clause that Leeds could invoke under certain circumstances.

Would this affect the PRL postion regarding an AW league if their own shareholders were going to be excluded to allow other teams in?

dont know. hammer might know. good question.

but whatever the answer, the PRL does have to take account of championship clubs to the extent there is relegation/promotion, because today's championship clubs may be tomorrow's AP clubs. even if they dont get a vote if they still have shares.

but have no idea how the voting at PRL meetings is allocated.

quinsforever wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I'll not respond Quins because I diagree on every point you make we clearly have completely different visions of how club rugby should evolve in general and Wales in particular

you say its straightforwards yet you decline to provide any actual concrete suggestions.

the points i make recognise the complexity and subtlety of club rugby in wales. the points you make ignore and gloss over them.

wales is not ireland. while you might ache for wales's national team success, you cannot see that the irish provincial model and it's extraordinary success, are shoes that won't fit in wales.

There's no reason that a regional model shouldn't be a great success in Wales. Just not the present one.

Munchkin wrote:
There's no reason that a regional model shouldn't be a great success in Wales. Just not the present one.

Or the Irish one.

quinsforever wrote:

wales is not ireland. while you might ache for wales's national team success, you cannot see that the irish provincial model and it's extraordinary success, are shoes that won't fit in wales.

Neither is it England.  Getting consumed into a Welsh/Anglo League isn't exactly a guarantee of bouyancy, tons-a-profit, big smashin' crowds at all games and top-of-the-leader-board fun for the Welsh regional fans.  I think you've used the following line a few times over the last few months: "Be careful what you wish for (Regions)"  You got a pretty greedy dog in English rugby and it might lick your face today, but will it bite your ass tomorrow?  Big philosophical question that - get thinking Regions  

Can I ask, what exactly, is wrong with the current regional system?

Attendances

Going by % of their catchment area to attendance, how far are the regions behind? Just curious as Dublin had a population of 527,612 (in 2011) and Leinster had a average attendance of 21,511. So by just taking the base town/city that is 4.77% attendance. Llanelli has a population of 46,526 (in 2011) and an average attendance of 7,306. So again by base town/city that is 15.7% attendance. Going by that I would sayt he Scarlets are theoretically punching way above their weight when it comes to attendances.

Results

Regions have won 5 (1 Scarlets, 4 Ospreys) Celtic League titles, 2 Anglo-Welsh Cups (one when it was a serious comp.), and 1 Amlin Cup. For 10 years, and four teams that is not a bad set of results.

Developement

The regions have brought through numerous players via the academies into the national team, and the national team, and the age grade teams, are reaping the rewards of this

Funding

Ideal world the regions would all be like the Irish, funded by the Union and not by independent backers. However for the last ten yeas the regions have only survived and achieved what they have because of the money men. Now we are at a catch 22 regarding completions for money against competitions for development, businesses or progression tools. The only realistic solution is for the union to buy the money men out, but it is going to take time and money. And these are two things the WRU, at the moment, seem un-keen on spending. Although if they were to be willing to buy the backers out, say 10% a season, then in ten years we may get to that point too.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
There's no reason that a regional model shouldn't be a great success in Wales. Just not the present one.

Or the Irish one.

The Irish one is a great success, in Ireland, but yes, Wales would need to look at how it can make that model, or something close to it, work for regional rugby in Wales.

Munchkin wrote:

The Irish one is a great success, in Ireland, but yes, Wales would need to look at how it can make that model, or something close to it, work for regional rugby in Wales.

Yes, Wales would need to look at where they would get the £40m of private investment that would be driven out each decade.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

The Irish one is a great success, in Ireland, but yes, Wales would need to look at how it can make that model, or something close to it, work for regional rugby in Wales.

Yes, Wales would need to look at where they would get the £40m of private investment that would be driven out each decade.

WRU have been very successful in what they do. No doubt about that. Any reason they can't be as successful with the regions, as IRFU has been with the Provinces? It isn't as if RRW have been a roaring success, is it?

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

The Irish one is a great success, in Ireland, but yes, Wales would need to look at how it can make that model, or something close to it, work for regional rugby in Wales.

Yes, Wales would need to look at where they would get the £40m of private investment that would be driven out each decade.

WRU have been very successful in what they do. No doubt about that. Any reason they can't be as successful with the regions, as IRFU has been with the Provinces? It isn't as if RRW have been a roaring success, is it?

Munchkin, it is a simple answer of where does the money come from? The union do not have the money to do that sort of money at the moment, but may have in a few years when they have finished paying off their loan.

Munchkin wrote:

WRU have been very successful in what they do. No doubt about that. Any reason they can't be as successful with the regions, as IRFU has been with the Provinces? It isn't as if RRW have been a roaring success, is it?

RRW haven't been allowed to be a roaring success have they. They've clearly been plying their trade with their hands behind their back. The only organisation that could have changed the system was the WRU. Yet they have sat back and watched it all unfold, because the top of the game is a success, whilst all beneath it is crumbling. They don't need to change anything. Wales are winning. They get record turnover. Why change anything?

In the last 5 years of WRU governance, something like 25 Wales internationals have left Wales.

What was WRUs response to this?

"Lets have another 5 years of the same structure".

The fact people think this is acceptable, let alone "success" is quite staggerring.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

In the last 5 years of WRU governance, something like 25 Wales internationals have left Wales.

When did the majority of those players go?  What were these Welsh Internationals doing with their clubs when they were in situ at home?  Why can't they impact their International ability and form onto a European club contest? - to give their Regions a stronger profile in Europe, to give their Regions a much more potent position when negotiating sponsorship deals, to bring more enthusiastic and larger crowds with them (Munster grew in stature and crowd participation through HEC efforts, not Magners)

You blame the WRU that really outstanding Welsh International players go through the motions when at Regions?  Where is the idea that the Regions, by forcing players and coaches to higher standards, were ever looking after their own interests or their own obligations to provide their fans with real and meaningful success that would drag more money and followers to them?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

The Irish one is a great success, in Ireland, but yes, Wales would need to look at how it can make that model, or something close to it, work for regional rugby in Wales.

Yes, Wales would need to look at where they would get the £40m of private investment that would be driven out each decade.

WRU have been very successful in what they do. No doubt about that. Any reason they can't be as successful with the regions, as IRFU has been with the Provinces? It isn't as if RRW have been a roaring success, is it?

Munchkin, it is a simple answer of where does the money come from?  The union do not have the money to do that sort of money at the moment, but may have in a few years when they have finished paying off their loan.

True, if we're talking about starting completely new regions from scratch, but if we're talking about WRU taking over the existing regions then cost is significantly less....perhaps. Would they want, or need, to take over all four regions?
As painful as it might be, if the WRU are really intent on taking ownership of regions, then maybe they should heavily invest now, rather than later. Even if it means borrowing extra to cover costs.
You might be right that WRU are playing a waiting game, and pounce once the MS loan is paid in full, but that's a plan that will help ensure another 5 years of agony for regions, and their supporters, and will further damage rugby union in Wales.

Munchkin - buying an existing business is far more expensive than buying a start up.

SecretFly wrote:

When did the majority of those players go?  What were these Welsh Internationals doing with their clubs when they were in situ at home?  Why can't they impact their International ability and form onto a European club contest? - to give their Regions a stronger profile in Europe, to give their Regions a much more potent position when negotiating sponsorship deals, to bring more enthusiastic and larger crowds with them (Munster grew in stature and crowd participation through HEC efforts, not Magners)

Check out rounds 3 and 4 of the Henieken Cup. And check out what the Wales players do in the lead up to those games, compared with their Irish counterparts.

You blame the WRU that really outstanding Welsh International players go through the motions when at Regions?  Where is the idea that the Regions, by forcing players and coaches to higher standards, were ever looking after their own interests or their own obligations to provide their fans with real and meaningful success that would drag more money and followers to them?

They don't go through the motions at their regions. Any player not giving 100% would be dropped instantly. That's laughable.

The diluted performances stem from coaching in the main. Don't WRU tell regions to only employ those coaches that gained coaching qualifications in Wales?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

WRU have been very successful in what they do. No doubt about that. Any reason they can't be as successful with the regions, as IRFU has been with the Provinces? It isn't as if RRW have been a roaring success, is it?

RRW haven't been allowed to be a roaring success have they. They've clearly been plying their trade with their hands behind their back. The only organisation that could have changed the system was the WRU. Yet they have sat back and watched it all unfold, because the top of the game is a success, whilst all beneath it is crumbling. They don't need to change anything. Wales are winning. They get record turnover. Why change anything?

In the last 5 years of WRU governance, something like 25 Wales internationals have left Wales.

What was WRUs response to this?

"Lets have another 5 years of the same structure".

The fact people think this is acceptable, let alone "success" is quite staggerring.

I don't believe that for a moment. As the PWC report points out, the regions made a horlicks of finances. The regions were equipped with all they needed for success, including top players, and failed miserably, bar Ospreys success in Rabo. It's about time region supporters starting pointing the finger of blame at those who manage regions for failure to deliver. I know some do. Some point at poor choice in coaching, for a start.

Munchkin - apologies, only skim read your post the first time I replied.  Your right if the union want the regions then now is the point when they should man up and either do it, or back off leave the regions be stand alone businesses making their own tv deals etc.  But sadly, and I don't usually buy into conspiracy theories, the slow death of the regions (making them cheaper to buy as money men will just want to get shot) and then riding in on a white charger in a few years time, does seem the unions main plan.

Munchkin wrote:

I don't believe that for a moment. As the PWC report points out, the regions made a horlicks of finances. The regions were equipped with all they needed for success, including top players, and failed miserably, bar Ospreys success in Rabo. It's about time region supporters starting pointing the finger of blame at those who manage regions for failure to deliver. I know some do. Some point at poor choice in coaching, for a start.

You don't believe it. Awesome.

The earth is flat.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

When did the majority of those players go?  What were these Welsh Internationals doing with their clubs when they were in situ at home?  Why can't they impact their International ability and form onto a European club contest? - to give their Regions a stronger profile in Europe, to give their Regions a much more potent position when negotiating sponsorship deals, to bring more enthusiastic and larger crowds with them (Munster grew in stature and crowd participation through HEC efforts, not Magners)

Check out rounds 3 and 4 of the Henieken Cup. And check out what the Wales players do in the lead up to those games, compared with their Irish counterparts.

You blame the WRU that really outstanding Welsh International players go through the motions when at Regions?  Where is the idea that the Regions, by forcing players and coaches to higher standards, were ever looking after their own interests or their own obligations to provide their fans with real and meaningful success that would drag more money and followers to them?

They don't go through the motions at their regions. Any player not giving 100% would be dropped instantly. That's laughable.

The diluted performances stem from coaching in the main. Don't WRU tell regions to only employ those coaches that gained coaching qualifications in Wales?

They do. You're deluded. They do. They are and have been of the calibre to reach further into HEC for some years now... but they haven't. Irish players get accused of keeping their best for Province to the detriment of International (that's Irish players have often accused each other of that not just gossip) We could accuse Welsh players of the same selectivity but the other way round....there is certainly circumstantiual evidence aplenty over the years.

SecretFly wrote:
They do.  You're deluded.  They do.  They are and have been of the calibre to reach further into HEC for some years now... but they haven't.

You're accusing players of not trying in H Cup games? Which HEC performances are these? Which players? Genuine examples please. Thanks.

It is the coaching.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
They do.  You're deluded.  They do.  They are and have been of the calibre to reach further into HEC for some years now... but they haven't.

You're accusing players of not trying in H Cup games? Which HEC performances are these? Which players? Genuine examples please. Thanks.

It is the coaching.

It is the coaching ...in your opinion.  

We all have opinions.  

The Regions blame the WRU for all their ills? I say the Regions have to shoulder a big part of the burden that their teams haven't made the impact in Europe that the Welsh players certainly had the skills to progress in.  You would blame the WRU, I'd blame the Regions.  Opinions.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Munchkin - apologies, only skim read your post the first time I replied.  Your right if the union want the regions then now is the point when they should man up and either do it, or back off leave the regions be stand alone businesses making their own tv deals etc.  But sadly, and I don't usually buy into conspiracy theories, the slow death of the regions (making them cheaper to buy as money men will just want to get shot) and then riding in on a white charger in a few years time, does seem the unions main plan.

Absolutely agree. Now is the time for WRU to take over regions, if that is their aim. I think it is. Yes, buying over an existing business can be more expensive than starting from scratch, but usually only when buying over a successful existing business. Even then it can work out much cheaper in the long term. As things stand, I would think the cheaper option for WRU would be to take ownership of the existing regions, but also think that they should do it now. Neither side can afford to allow this to rumble on until the MS is bought, and paid for.