New European cup. (Or whatever it's called) Qualification agreed? Part 2

First topic message reminder :

A continuation of the previous thread. For everyone with more to say.

St John The Enforcer wrote:So ALL of the Regions issues are down to the WRU and "having to play in the Rabo?"

Fair enough. I must be on drugs.......Unless.....

No, you said they want to "blame it ALL on the WRU" and "joining the prem will solve all their problems".

Neither are remotely true.

Glad to hear it. so perhaps they are not delusional.

Why do people see this proposed anglo welsh cup as.

A/ Having any remote chance of happening

B/ Being anything other than a tactic to further PRL ambitions. (and let's face it if they did smash the Rabo which sides would bring in the cash for them. There could well be big white Irish ar$es in the way of the Welsh regions)

C/ Going to help Welsh Rugby in ANY way?

St John The Enforcer wrote:Glad to hear it. so perhaps they are not delusional.

Why do people see this proposed anglo welsh cup as.

A/ Having any remote chance of happening

B/ Being anything other than a tactic to further PRL ambitions. (and let's face it if they did smash the Rabo which sides would bring in the cash for them. There could well be big white Irish ar$es in the way of the Welsh regions)

C/ Going to help Welsh Rugby in ANY way?

Fair points with A and B. But can you really not see why they would want it? It would act as a gateway to a change in their service agreement with the WRU. Which would mean a chance to finally, after all these years, enable them to make business decisions of their own. Currently they are not allowed to grow all their own income streams. They are private business. This i scandalous. Yet they are accused of "failing" and "not making enough money" by idiots who don't understand. This anglo-welsh would then ideally develop into a British and Irish league 3 years down the line, which is the only thing that will get anywhere close to competing with the French.

Some people want to stick to 2 dying competitions (pro12 and HCup). It's laughable.

St. John - I think your over simplifying things to the extreme there.

The majority of the regions problems would be solved with extra cash. With more cash, the regions should be able to retain their home grown talent, and supplement that with high quality NWQ players. Taking the Scarlets as an example, if we had money to hold onto players tht have been with us in the last few years we would be able to field a 23 man squad along the lines of Li Williams, North, J Davies, S Williams, Fenby, Priestland, G Davies; P John, Owens, Lee, Ball, Earle, Lyons, Barclay, Morgan (bench; E Phillips, R Evans, R Jones, Shingler, McCusker; M Phillips, O Williams, R King), and maybe we would be able to have got hold of better NWQs than Earle and Snyman for that squad too. Also greater access to their regions (the union are currently in control of the community game), would help the regions to ensure kick-off times for the region and for the teams around the region would not clash, meaning more fans could attend. Both of these things would increase attendances, and increase income for the region, and as such make them more able to stand on their own feet without 'assistance' from the union.

The union appear to be able to find cash when they need it. After all they are paying off the MS loan faster than actually required. Also when they have managed to drum up 'additional sponsorship' to use in their bidding war for players, to centrally contract. However, the PA they put in front of the regions did not reflect that at all. Also as stated earlier the union run the community game, and when the regions (Andrew Hore is well publicised for this) have attempted to get more involved the union have told them to back off.

And an anglo-welsh league (if possible) would have provided the regions with more cash from the off. Also the distances needed to be travelled by away supporters (and for the regions traveling support) would be far smaller, meaning that attendances should go up as at the moment the regions get very few away supporters turning up for Rabo fixtures. Another bonus would be more attractive kickoff times, which should help bring people in too

I don't see any way of splitting up a British and Irish cup that would work. Either you would have to split English clubs (some in with Welsh some in with Irish or Scottish) or else you would have to lump the Welsh, Irish and Scottish in together (Sound familiar?)

Pro 12 and HC are not dying despite the best attempts of the PRL. Just wait and see.

I do have sympathy for the regions in all this and take your points on that.

I just can't see a solution that does not involve the WRU and the regions sorting it out together. Which needs to start with a willingness to make progress, from both sides.

The HC isn't dying? Have you been living in a cave?

St John The Enforcer wrote:

I just can't see a solution that does not involve the WRU and the regions sorting it out together. Which needs to start with a willingness to make progress, from both sides.

Why is there this misconception that they don't want to make progress?

They've been trying for two years.

Latest rumours suggest that some window dressing will be done to let the PRL claim they are not backing down, and we will have a HC next year with them involved.

Other than that there will be a HC without them.

At least that's what it says in the daily cavedweller

Chunky Norwich wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

I just can't see a solution that does not involve the WRU and the regions sorting it out together. Which needs to start with a willingness to make progress, from both sides.

Why is there this misconception that they don't want to make progress?

They've been trying for two years.

They want to try harder then. (Not sure who you mean by they. I mean both sides)

Chunky Norwich wrote: This anglo-welsh would then ideally develop into a British and Irish league 3 years down the line, which is the only thing that will get anywhere close to competing with the French.

Who wants to compete with the French?

We want our teams playing in rugby Leagues and at the highest competition in a European context. That's what want.

Competing against the French - and English, and Welsh, and Scots and whoever else - On The Field. All of us - competeing Against each other not some of us competing With each other....and then sending out League representative to tangle with French teams in a European event.

It's back to this old Lions crap where it's seen as more noble somehow to meet Indivdual Nations as a combination unit of Four Nations than it is to meet these Nations on our own.

That's not competing - that's a White Flag. Always has been. This Them v Us thing with the French clubs? Who invented that?
Who it Them? The French? And who is Us? The English? The Welsh? Not if you're Irish, they're not. And the same for English rugby, Us isn't 2Irish" for them. We're competitors against each other - not happy bedfellows having a war against the bad bad French.

Who cares about the French? The PRL do -and they came oh so late to the Party as they were sleeping in a very cozy bed With the French, sneering the rest of us, right up until the French pulled out on them.

Now, all the nations around these parts are supposed to be the best of buddies to fight off the French influence in Europe? We're meant to merge into some kind of British and Irish League where what will happen???

English big money sides with big fan numbers will hoover up players form the less dense populations?
Irish players happy that their club is Leicester or Saints? - like in the good old/bad old days before the Provinces got their act together?
Irish and Welsh based fans cheering on their Saracens team against the best French one in a European final?

Top 10 sides from each League again in any future European Cup? Meaning that if there are only two Leagues left then bye bye even More National representation in club team terms for some Nations?

That's the ideal for the future? It's the PRL ideal. It ain't ours.

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

I just can't see a solution that does not involve the WRU and the regions sorting it out together. Which needs to start with a willingness to make progress, from both sides.

Why is there this misconception that they don't want to make progress?

They've been trying for two years.

They want to try harder then. (Not sure who you mean by they. I mean both sides)

So first you said they are showing no willingness to make progress. Now you backtrack and say they are not trying hard enough.

Forgive me for thinking that you know very little about the current state of Welsh rugby.

SecretFly wrote:

That's the ideal for the future?  It's the PRL ideal.  It ain't ours.

The thing is, if it doesn't happen, then within the next decade, Scottish rugby, Welsh rugby, Italian rugby could conceivably have no domestic game to speak of.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:St. John - I think your over simplifying things to the extreme there.  

The majority of the regions problems would be solved with extra cash.  With more cash, the regions should be able to retain their home grown talent, and supplement that with high quality NWQ players.  Taking the Scarlets as an example, if we had money to hold onto players tht have been with us in the last few years we would be able to field a 23 man squad along the lines of Li Williams, North, J Davies, S Williams, Fenby, Priestland, G Davies; P John, Owens, Lee, Ball, Earle, Lyons, Barclay, Morgan (bench; E Phillips, R Evans, R Jones, Shingler, McCusker; M Phillips, O Williams, R King), and maybe we would be able to have got hold of better NWQs than Earle and Snyman for that squad too. Also greater access to their regions (the union are currently in control of the community game), would help the regions to ensure kick-off times for the region and for the teams around the region would not clash, meaning more fans could attend.  Both of these things would increase attendances, and increase income for the region, and as such make them more able to stand on their own feet without 'assistance' from the union.

The union appear to be able to find cash when they need it.  After all they are paying off the MS loan faster than actually required.  Also when they have managed to drum up 'additional sponsorship' to use in their bidding war for players, to centrally contract.  However, the PA they put in front of the regions did not reflect that at all.  Also as stated earlier the union run the community game, and when the regions (Andrew Hore is well publicised for this) have attempted to get more involved the union have told them to back off.

And an anglo-welsh league (if possible) would have provided the regions with more cash from the off.  Also the distances needed to be travelled by away supporters (and for the regions traveling support) would be far smaller, meaning that attendances should go up as at the moment the regions get very few away supporters turning up for Rabo fixtures.  Another bonus would be more attractive kickoff times, which should help bring people in too

Sorry I missed this. What baffles me is... If regional fans can't get up off their holes to watch (for example) Ospreys v Leicester in the HC (leaving aside the LV) why would they bother doing it in another comp?

Why would the WRU want to pour enough money to achieve the goals in your first paragraph into Regions that they do not control in any way?

OK the situation started badly in 03. But the regions have been in existence too long to just be "swept away" and new ones formed.

I see a possible solution where the WRU put in more money for more control. Not total control but certainly more, otherwise they will just be pi$$ing their money up against the wall.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

I just can't see a solution that does not involve the WRU and the regions sorting it out together. Which needs to start with a willingness to make progress, from both sides.

Why is there this misconception that they don't want to make progress?

They've been trying for two years.

They want to try harder then. (Not sure who you mean by they. I mean both sides)

So first you said they are showing no willingness to make progress. Now you backtrack and say they are not trying hard enough.

Forgive me for thinking that you know very little about the current state of Welsh rugby.

How is that backtracking? No progress has been made (that I know of) therefore at least one side (but most likely both) does not have real willingness to make progress.

They have a peace process in Northern Ireland. South Africa has one man one vote. Why is it so hard to sort out a f*cking game of Rugby in a supposedly Rugby mad nation.

St.John, is it urinating aginst the wind though. If the regions are stronger, and self sufficient then the union and then stop funding them. Instead of this halfway house we have now.

You don't sell you soul to the devil to live as a shell at the bottom of someone else's league - worrying each year about relegation as yet again an English side represents the British and Irish peoples in a European final with a French team.

No - that doesn't have to happen...but it's what PRl would love to happen.

PRL are "Them" to us as much as some here think the French are.

We're Nations - International and club level.  We're Nations in our own right.  We won't be consumed into someone elses.  Well, we Irish won't anyway.  The rest can speak up for themselves.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:St.John, is it urinating aginst the wind though.  If the regions are stronger, and self sufficient then the union and then stop funding them.  Instead of this halfway house we have now.

Pi$$ing it against the wall rather than into the wind (which has different connotations)
If they got more ar$es on seats that would help too. Someone with a bit of go, a bit of positivity who looked like they were trying rather than just complaining all the time. Other than the Easter day out in the millennium stadium I don't see a whole heap of clever marketing.

If the WRU fund the regions and they are still in the same boat in 5 years time then the x million spent will indeed have "just been pi$$ed up against the wall"

There has to be some accountability. Even if it is just performance related funding, leading to more independence for the regions.

Anyway. I am not Welsh. So it is really none of my business. Just frustrated at how the Welsh regions are being used in the crusade to smash the rabo and the HC.

They will be discarded when they have served their purpose. Just as the French clubs discarded the PRL themselves when it no longer suited them.

SecretFly wrote:You don't sell you soul to the devil to live as a shell at the bottom of someone else's league - worrying each year about relegation as yet again an English side represents the British and Irish peoples in a European final with a French team.

No - that doesn't have to happen...but it's what PRl would love to happen.

PRL are "Them" to us as much as some here think the French are.

We're Nations - International and club level.  We're Nations in our own right.  We won't be consumed into someone elses.  Well, we Irish won't anyway.  The rest can speak up for themselves.

Fly, we have our own 4 little independent nations to try and keep together for the overall good of Irish rugby. We've enough trouble. Its a pity they didn't take the Welsh off our hands.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:You don't sell you soul to the devil to live as a shell at the bottom of someone else's league - worrying each year about relegation as yet again an English side represents the British and Irish peoples in a European final with a French team.

No - that doesn't have to happen...but it's what PRl would love to happen.

PRL are "Them" to us as much as some here think the French are.

We're Nations - International and club level.  We're Nations in our own right.  We won't be consumed into someone elses.  Well, we Irish won't anyway.  The rest can speak up for themselves.

Fly, we have our own 4 little independent nations to try and keep together for the overall good of Irish rugby. We've enough trouble. Its a pity they didn't take the Welsh off our hands.

True...true Sin about the 4 Independent Nations bit.  We could have a pan-National league between just the four of us - or as I always say, divide each of us into two (north and south) and that's a nice sturdy 8 team league of......violence and mayhem and inter-inter Provincial rivalry

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:You don't sell you soul to the devil to live as a shell at the bottom of someone else's league - worrying each year about relegation as yet again an English side represents the British and Irish peoples in a European final with a French team.

No - that doesn't have to happen...but it's what PRl would love to happen.

PRL are "Them" to us as much as some here think the French are.

We're Nations - International and club level.  We're Nations in our own right.  We won't be consumed into someone elses.  Well, we Irish won't anyway.  The rest can speak up for themselves.

Fly, we have our own 4 little independent nations to try and keep together for the overall good of Irish rugby. We've enough trouble. Its a pity they didn't take the Welsh off our hands.

True...true Sin about the 4 Independent Nations bit.  We could have a pan-National league between just the four of us - or as I always say, divide each of us into two (north and south) and that's a nice sturdy 8 team league of......violence and mayhem and inter-inter Provincial rivalry

One of the papers did an interview/profile with the 3 CEOs of the IRFU, FAI & GAA together a few years back where they were comparing the different jobs. The GAA fellow started laughing when they said that his job was easier because he didn't have to deal with other nations, saying that he was kept on his toes by his 32 Independent Republics.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:You don't sell you soul to the devil to live as a shell at the bottom of someone else's league - worrying each year about relegation as yet again an English side represents the British and Irish peoples in a European final with a French team.

No - that doesn't have to happen...but it's what PRl would love to happen.

PRL are "Them" to us as much as some here think the French are.

We're Nations - International and club level.  We're Nations in our own right.  We won't be consumed into someone elses.  Well, we Irish won't anyway.  The rest can speak up for themselves.

Fly, we have our own 4 little independent nations to try and keep together for the overall good of Irish rugby. We've enough trouble. Its a pity they didn't take the Welsh off our hands.

True...true Sin about the 4 Independent Nations bit.  We could have a pan-National league between just the four of us - or as I always say, divide each of us into two (north and south) and that's a nice sturdy 8 team league of......violence and mayhem and inter-inter Provincial rivalry

One of the papers did an interview/profile with the 3 CEOs of the IRFU, FAI & GAA together a few years back where they were comparing the different jobs. The GAA fellow started laughing when they said that his job was easier because he didn't have to deal with other nations, saying that he was kept on his toes by his 32 Independent Republics.

There is an American expression which states: 'All Politics is Local'.

Certainly, never so true as in the European Rugby process. At least it has given sports writers more work to do. Sadly for them, there are (once again and for the 27th time), signs of progress. This time, though, I really think something will come of it. Simply because everything will unravel otherwise. And when everyone loses money, it is prime motivation for everyone to pull their heads out of their nether regions. And because the boys at the bar are near closing time. And if they really screw this up, they might never be allowed back in the bar ever again.

If the new make gets the go-ahead that will make the Pro-11/10 or what ever we will be called, a bit more interesting if there are only 7 places up for grabs. Will certainly get some coaches to focus more on the domestic side of things, rather than thinking that we have this one in the bag.

8Studs wrote:If the new make gets the go-ahead that will make the Pro-11/10 or what ever we will be called, a bit more interesting if there are only 7 places up for grabs.  Will certainly get some coaches to focus more on the domestic side of things, rather than thinking that we have this one in the bag.

Will it though. Realistically the teams that get accused of not taking the league serious are the big three Irish sides, and they are regularly sitting in the top 3-5 places in the league. I can't see it making them worry too much. The only teams that may up their game will be the Edinburgh, Blues, Dragons, Scarlet (based on this season) and Connacht, and being fair they don't really 'save themselves' for the HEC.

I think 'accusation' about the Irish teams and not trying in the Pro12 is more that because the Scots and Italians (and in some ways the Welsh teams) don't need to try that hard to qualify in the league it means some of the games are 'easier'. Similar to the idea of relegation in the Premiership. It's not that Tigers have to worry about being relegated, it's that the guys at the bottom are desperate not to and are still fighting at the end of the season.

Of course that requires you to subscribe to the idea that teams try harder depending on motivation, instead of trying their hardest in every game. Anecdotally, there tends to be a surge in performance in the bottom team post christmas. Whether this is because they're 'more motivated' or because changes have happened due to poor beginning...do idea.

You still have to have the players...and the coaches.  

Motivation won't get you off the floor any quicker just because a seat at HEC (whatever it might be called) is at stake.  Players are players, if they have the skills to be the best then they are out there marketing themselves by trying to play well in all games (as an aside to their Regional duties). They are professionals who need to perform to march up the ladder to bigger pay deals and perhaps better sides.

So no matter where you are in a League, you try to win the games you are in.  Ability is the cut-off point, not interest.

Scarlet Spider as you have poited out the likes of Ediburgh, Blues, Dragons and Connacht will be now looking for that extra bit or performance and that might just be the difference in a win or loss especially when games are close.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

8Studs wrote:If the new make gets the go-ahead that will make the Pro-11/10 or what ever we will be called, a bit more interesting if there are only 7 places up for grabs.  Will certainly get some coaches to focus more on the domestic side of things, rather than thinking that we have this one in the bag.

Will it though.  Realistically the teams that get accused of not taking the league serious are the big three Irish sides, and they are regularly sitting in the top 3-5 places in the league.  I can't see it making them worry too much.  The only teams that may up their game will be the Edinburgh, Blues, Dragons, Scarlet (based on this season) and Connacht, and being fair they don't really 'save themselves' for the HEC.

The top three Irish provinces must have some strength in depth to be able to save themselves for HEC, and yet finish in top 5 of the Rabo. There is little substance to the accusation of saving themselves, but taking it as true then it's up to the others to push harder to finish at, or near, the top, applying pressure on the Provinces to field stronger teams.
The claim by RRW that Rabo isn't competitive enough is ironic coming from them. Maybe if they consistently finished in the top 5 they would have earned that right.

Just a very simple thought, taking a big picture view - rugby in Ireland and Wales need not be in that different a state: both enjoying/have enjoyed a reasonably golden generation of players for the last wee while, both have experienced international success (certinaly in NH terms), both have 4 regions/provinces ('clubs' hereinafter), not wildly dissimilar playing numbers at grass roots, both have redeveloped national stadia, etc. The main points of difference would be structure (central control, clear pyramid hierarchy), relative club-level success (esp in Europe), and direct fan interest; add to that some minor points perhaps, no 7s team in Ireland except for world championships, no A team in Wales, etc., but these are minor details surely. Is there really any reason why the states of the game in the two countries should be so different? Is it a gross oversimplification to suggest that Wales have concentrated too much on the national team at the expense of their clubs, and Ireland have gone down the opposite route? Has the involvement of outside commercial interests in Wales ultimately hindered developments of the regions?

Munchkin wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

8Studs wrote:If the new make gets the go-ahead that will make the Pro-11/10 or what ever we will be called, a bit more interesting if there are only 7 places up for grabs.  Will certainly get some coaches to focus more on the domestic side of things, rather than thinking that we have this one in the bag.

Will it though.  Realistically the teams that get accused of not taking the league serious are the big three Irish sides, and they are regularly sitting in the top 3-5 places in the league.  I can't see it making them worry too much.  The only teams that may up their game will be the Edinburgh, Blues, Dragons, Scarlet (based on this season) and Connacht, and being fair they don't really 'save themselves' for the HEC.

The top three Irish provinces must have some strength in depth to be able to save themselves for HEC, and yet finish in top 5 of the Rabo. There is little substance to the accusation of saving themselves, but taking it as true then it's up to the others to push harder to finish at, or near, the top, applying pressure on the Provinces to field stronger teams.
The claim by RRW that Rabo isn't competitive enough is ironic coming from them. Maybe if they consistently finished in the top 5 they would have earned that right.

I haven't heard them claim that.

It's a fairly standard line trotted out by supporters of the regions for backing the RRW's decision to leave the Rabo and join an AW league, Dave - have seen it many times

Maybe Wales should go back to an internal league of Clubs rather than just 4 (southerly situated) Regions  - and then draw their Internationals from 8, 10, or 12 healthy clubs?

And maybe it's time Ireland too tried to work out whether having a League of its own in Ireland would better suit our goals for the future - as in not being hoovered up by growing Super-Clubs in France or England.  We could find a possible way to at least divide ourselves into 8 sub Provincial sides.

When you have your own distinct League - your negotiating rights for the Euro part strengthen.  Individual Nations within Pro12 now are being weakened by the link up unfortunately.

So, if we have a new competition and peace for a two or three year period - I hope people will still be thinking about options for the future after any contract period elapses - because sure as hell demands from larger Nations aren't going to get any less - they'll just keep increasing into the future.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Just a very simple thought, taking a big picture view - rugby in Ireland and Wales need not be in that different a state: both enjoying/have enjoyed a reasonably golden generation of players for the last wee while, both have experienced international success (certinaly in NH terms), both have 4 regions/provinces ('clubs' hereinafter), not wildly dissimilar playing numbers at grass roots, both have redeveloped national stadia, etc.  The main points of difference would be structure (central control, clear pyramid hierarchy), relative club-level success (esp in Europe), and direct fan interest; add to that some minor points perhaps, no 7s team in Ireland except for world championships, no A team in Wales, etc., but these are minor details surely.  Is there really any reason why the states of the game in the two countries should be so different?  Is it a gross oversimplification to suggest that Wales have concentrated too much on the national team at the expense of their clubs, and Ireland have gone down the opposite route?  Has the involvement of outside commercial interests in Wales ultimately hindered developments of the regions?

Surely the union takes responsibility for the rugby in it's region? So the difference is one rugby structure is run by the IRFU and one is run by the WRU.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

8Studs wrote:If the new make gets the go-ahead that will make the Pro-11/10 or what ever we will be called, a bit more interesting if there are only 7 places up for grabs.  Will certainly get some coaches to focus more on the domestic side of things, rather than thinking that we have this one in the bag.

Will it though.  Realistically the teams that get accused of not taking the league serious are the big three Irish sides, and they are regularly sitting in the top 3-5 places in the league.  I can't see it making them worry too much.  The only teams that may up their game will be the Edinburgh, Blues, Dragons, Scarlet (based on this season) and Connacht, and being fair they don't really 'save themselves' for the HEC.

The top three Irish provinces must have some strength in depth to be able to save themselves for HEC, and yet finish in top 5 of the Rabo. There is little substance to the accusation of saving themselves, but taking it as true then it's up to the others to push harder to finish at, or near, the top, applying pressure on the Provinces to field stronger teams.
The claim by RRW that Rabo isn't competitive enough is ironic coming from them. Maybe if they consistently finished in the top 5 they would have earned that right.

I haven't heard them claim that.

Not in those exact words, Dave, but certainly the implication has been made:

Peter Thomas -

"There are two basic ingredients to any business. The people, and we've got them, and the product (RaboDirect PRO12)," Thomas said.

"The product we have got isn't acceptable to the public and players, and it's not selling. If you have a product that doesn't sell, you either have to improve or change it."

But I suppose it would have been more accurate to say PRL, rather than RRW, or at least one of their mouthpieces:



Nigel Wray: “English and Welsh rugby has an enormous history, a rich culture of big club matches. What could be better than the restoration of the traditional fixtures, guaranteeing massive matches of real importance?”

“We play each other anyway in the LV=Cup so why not make the fixtures really meaningful? An enlarged Aviva Premiership can be created with no extra fixtures to be squeezed into the calendar. It would be good for the WRU because it would provide their teams with tougher competition."

It would also be true to say that some of RRW fans have parroted the likes of Wray when making their case for a move to an AW league.

HammerofThunor wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Just a very simple thought, taking a big picture view - rugby in Ireland and Wales need not be in that different a state: both enjoying/have enjoyed a reasonably golden generation of players for the last wee while, both have experienced international success (certinaly in NH terms), both have 4 regions/provinces ('clubs' hereinafter), not wildly dissimilar playing numbers at grass roots, both have redeveloped national stadia, etc.  The main points of difference would be structure (central control, clear pyramid hierarchy), relative club-level success (esp in Europe), and direct fan interest; add to that some minor points perhaps, no 7s team in Ireland except for world championships, no A team in Wales, etc., but these are minor details surely.  Is there really any reason why the states of the game in the two countries should be so different?  Is it a gross oversimplification to suggest that Wales have concentrated too much on the national team at the expense of their clubs, and Ireland have gone down the opposite route?  Has the involvement of outside commercial interests in Wales ultimately hindered developments of the regions?

Surely the union takes responsibility for the rugby in it's region? So the difference is one rugby structure is run by the IRFU and one is run by the WRU.

I guess that its delegated to the branches in Ireland, but not to the regions in Wales? I think that's right, altho whether that holds for junior clubs, academies, etc., I'm not sure?

Suck 'em in, then kill 'em off.

Wray knows business okay.

One thing he doesn't care about, and certainly didn't give a flying f**k when the Franglo Cup was still on the cards, is the state of Welsh rugby.

SecretFly wrote:Suck 'em in, then kill 'em off.  

Wray knows business okay.  

One thing he doesn't care about, and certainly didn't give a flying f**k when the Franglo Cup was still on the cards, is the state of Welsh rugby.

and even if an anglo-welsh league were to go ahead, he would be keeping an eye out for a better deal come the end of the contract anyway. A team top notch businessman.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote: Is it a gross oversimplification to suggest that Wales have concentrated too much on the national team at the expense of their clubs

No.

"Anglo-welsh League!" say the Regions. " What Anglo-welsh League?" "We never said there would be an Anglo-welsh League!" "We really want to be in the Rabo"

"Don't know where you got this Anglo-welsh League nonsense......"   



http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-regions-welcome-european-qualification-6703179

St John The Enforcer wrote:"Anglo-welsh League!" say the Regions.

Any links?

So we could be looking at the "I can't believe it's not the Heineken Cup" Cup. Sponsored by Heineken......

And the......

"I can't believe it's not the ERC" Body to run it. Containing representatives from the 6 Unions the PRL, LNR and RRW.

Bonkers stuff really.

Well. Just as long as the PRL "Never backed down" I suppose that's OK.........

Chunky Norwich wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:"Anglo-welsh League!" say the Regions.

Any links?

Not you too?

Are you also claiming that you never wanted an AWL? You were gagging for it!

Let's see how all these sides that disrupted the boat now do in the future - "things is more sorted now to our likin' " - competition.

There's been a lot of talk.... a lot of waffle, a lot of swagger from people that didn't show much of it on the field in recent years.  
The field is where things are won - it's been largely forgotten about in the last few months by the slick businessmen in fancy suits with briefcases and "No comment" frowns.

Back to the field.  Here's to a more 'competitive' Pro12 - and for that matter a 'French and English dominated' HEC (or whatever it'll be called) - those are after all the goals aren't they?

St John The Enforcer wrote:
Are you also claiming that you never wanted an AWL? You were gagging for it!

It personally was yes. But all we've heard from the regions is that RCC was their preferred competition due to income streams and Union attachment.

So, I suggest, unless you've got a link to a quote from RRW where they explicitly say the AW was their preferred choice, you reassess your posting.

Nobody said anything. Didn't none of you hear that already????? That's now official: Nobody has said anything these last few months. And anyone who says someone has said something is liable to be taken to court.

New-speak is the order from on-high. Forget 2013 ever happened under pain of Death.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:
Are you also claiming that you never wanted an AWL? You were gagging for it!

It personally was yes. But all we've heard from the regions is that RCC was their preferred competition due to income streams and Union attachment.

So, I suggest, unless you've got a link to a quote from RRW where they explicitly say the AW was their preferred choice, you reassess your posting.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/regions-meet-english-press-anglowelsh-6676347

but that was apparently all a bluff just so that RRW could secure a more competitive Celtic League, right?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/regions-meet-english-press-anglowelsh-6676347

but that was apparently all a bluff just so that RRW could secure a more competitive Celtic League, right?

"If we can't agree Europe etc - we'll do something else."

So let em get this straight, the regions are now getting slagged of for making continiency plans ?

Christ alive they can do nothing right.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:
Are you also claiming that you never wanted an AWL? You were gagging for it!

It personally was yes. But all we've heard from the regions is that RCC was their preferred competition due to income streams and Union attachment.

So, I suggest, unless you've got a link to a quote from RRW where they explicitly say the AW was their preferred choice, you reassess your posting.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/regions-meet-english-press-anglowelsh-6676347

but that was apparently all a bluff just so that RRW could secure a more competitive Celtic League, right?

That's exactly what RRW are saying. As I stated earlier; so ironic coming from RRW.

I think the word 'competitive' is getting people confused. In most of the articles I have seen I have always seen it as being competitive with regards to income, and most the time it is about trying to remain competitive with the French/English. As opposed to having a stronger league with harder matches. A bit like when the say about meaningful competitions, I have always taken it as financially meaningful competitions.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I think the word 'competitive' is getting people confused.  In most of the articles I have seen I have always seen it as being competitive with regards to income, and most the time it is about trying to remain competitive with the French/English.  As opposed to having a stronger league with harder matches.  A bit like when the say about meaningful competitions, I have always taken it as financially meaningful competitions.

The WalesOnline article makes it very clear what RRW means by competitive. They mean competitive in terms of giving Rabo games more of an edge. I take your point though. Competitive may also be in terms of revenue within a certain context. The thing is, if the regions had been more competitive in the Rabo, and more competitive in the HEC, in the sense of competing on the field, then an increase in revenue may have followed for the regions with success.

My idea of Competitiveness has nothing to do with finance and nothing to do with competing with external leagues (AP /Top14)  

Competitiveness, the competitiveness talked about by the AP and Top14 representatives, had all to do with what went down on the field  - most especially in Pro12!

First of all the cheek that two external Leagues would assume to discuss and suggest changes to the internal competitiveness of another competing league.  
But then also, the reason those two want an increased 'competitveness' in Pro12 is to hopefully force the hand of 'certain' sides in it to push more of their HEC players into humdrum Pro12 games and therefore have those 'certain' teams appear at HEC much weakened by their efforts in Pro12 - OR - the sweeter thing - not to appear at all
(afterall all we're all guaranteed now is ONE single entry - unlike the French and English who keep their six apiece)

And someone somewhere doesn't see that this is a new Europe designed to let a few Super teams grow (English and French) and for them to use smaller Nations then to stock up on needed players.

But will the plan work?  I go back to what I said earlier.  There has been a lot of talk by people who couldn't back it up on a field in recent years.  Let's see do the new rules strangle the victims they are designed to strangle.