New European cup. (Or whatever it's called) Qualification agreed? Part 2

First topic message reminder :

A continuation of the previous thread. For everyone with more to say.

VinceWLB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:
Sorry I don't understand. You said Treviso are out of the Pro12. Now you're saying they'd just be happy if it collapses. Do you mean completely or just the Italian involvement. And when you say "trust me", do you mean you've made this up or know a guy who knows a guy...or actually have a credible source of information.

I was talking about the French and English, who are at the origin of this european fiasco.

Don't know about the English but in France where i live they see the pro 12 as a developpment league without much pressure, teams can rotate and generate talents a bit like super rugby, they certainly don't like it.

Well, the view of the Top 14 over here is that its an awful slog where teams don't bother to compete away from home.

Does it matter what we think of each others leagues?

Unfortunately it seems to matter, otherwise we wouldn't be in all this mess...

Its got nothing to do with how the leagues play, its all got to do with money and who controls it.

By the way, the Italian teams were offered 2 places in the ProD2 and they took the Pro12 even with all the added expense of travel etc.

Sin é wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:
Sorry I don't understand. You said Treviso are out of the Pro12. Now you're saying they'd just be happy if it collapses. Do you mean completely or just the Italian involvement. And when you say "trust me", do you mean you've made this up or know a guy who knows a guy...or actually have a credible source of information.

I was talking about the French and English, who are at the origin of this european fiasco.

Don't know about the English but in France where i live they see the pro 12 as a developpment league without much pressure, teams can rotate and generate talents a bit like super rugby, they certainly don't like it.

Well, the view of the Top 14 over here is that its an awful slog where teams don't bother to compete away from home.

Does it matter what we think of each others leagues?

Unfortunately it seems to matter, otherwise we wouldn't be in all this mess...

Its got nothing to do with how the leagues play, its all got to do with money and who controls it.

By the way, the Italian teams were offered 2 places in the ProD2 and they took the Pro12 even with all the added expense of travel etc.

If facebook is anything to go by which i sincerely doubt, Italians are quite happy about the pro 12 even if they felt robbed sometimes when they lost but who wouldn't   

It was a great sight to behold on sunday when the Italian's scrum dominated the French' scrum with 2 Treviso props.

Sin é wrote:I'm interpreting that they say their contract is finished at the end of this season with the Pro12 (started in 2009).

Benetton Rugby are willing to participate in any future comp. that FIR intend to promote, once the rules, regs and funds are clarified.

(Background to this is that FIR don't want to subsidise Treviso and Treviso want them to).

That certainly seems to fit the terrible translation better than anything else. Certainly doesn't suggest they're out (other than them being out because the current contract expires this year).

TJ wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Well, the view of the Top 14 over here is that its an awful slog where teams don't bother to compete away from home.

Does it matter what we think of each others leagues?

and many of us see the AP as an attritional league where players get flogged into the ground, no one can risk much and there is no room to develop a team

We can all pick faults in other leagues structures

And some of us are stupid, blind, fools one would be me

VinceWLB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:
Sorry I don't understand. You said Treviso are out of the Pro12. Now you're saying they'd just be happy if it collapses. Do you mean completely or just the Italian involvement. And when you say "trust me", do you mean you've made this up or know a guy who knows a guy...or actually have a credible source of information.

I was talking about the French and English, who are at the origin of this european fiasco.

Don't know about the English but in France where i live they see the pro 12 as a developpment league without much pressure, teams can rotate and generate talents a bit like super rugby, they certainly don't like it.

Well, the view of the Top 14 over here is that its an awful slog where teams don't bother to compete away from home.

Does it matter what we think of each others leagues?

Unfortunately it seems to matter, otherwise we wouldn't be in all this mess...

Its got nothing to do with how the leagues play, its all got to do with money and who controls it.

By the way, the Italian teams were offered 2 places in the ProD2 and they took the Pro12 even with all the added expense of travel etc.

If facebook is anything to go by which i sincerely doubt, Italians are quite happy about the pro 12 even if they felt robbed sometimes when they lost but who wouldn't   

It was a great sight to behold on sunday when the Italian's scrum dominated the French' scrum with 2 Treviso props.

I think it has helped them no end to compete internationally. They are really not walk-overs any more. Another 4/5 years and who knows how good they will be.

Sin é wrote:By the way, the Italian teams were offered 2 places in the ProD2 and they took the Pro12 even with all the added expense of travel etc.

I don't suppose you have any reference for that do you? You're usually pretty good and it would be interesting to read what they were offered.

With half an ear open, I just caught a BBC news report that an Italian side is withdrawing from the PRO12 from the end of this season. Didn't catch which one but I suppose it's Zebre.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sin é wrote:By the way, the Italian teams were offered 2 places in the ProD2 and they took the Pro12 even with all the added expense of travel etc.

I don't suppose you have any reference for that do you? You're usually pretty good and it would be interesting to read what they were offered.

I don't actually. It was something I read a few months back (in Italian) - I wouldn't even know what to search for!

I can see why they would have chosen the Pro12 (with no relegation) until they found their feet. I also think they have a good relationship with the Irish who have championed getting them into the Six Nations. (That bit of info I picked up from John Feehan, the Six Nations CEO).

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:With half an ear open, I just caught a BBC news report that an Italian side is withdrawing from the PRO12 from the end of this season. Didn't catch which one but I suppose it's Zebre.

I think they got it wrong!

Its Treviso (who are owned by Benetton).

http://www.benettonrugby.it/novita.aspx?idC=3144

Zebre are Union owned.

Yeah, I seem to remember reading that the IRFU encouraged the SRU to agree to them going in. Pro12 makes more sense in structure if the French system makes more sense geographically.

the BBC website has both Italian teams withdrawing. I still don't actually believe it and think its positioning for renegotiating their entry but it could be true

Italian Rugby Federation president Alfredo Gavazzi had said the organisation intends to withdraw Treviso and Zebre from the Pro12 and enter them in an eight-team Italian League.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26122565

This would really make a mess of european cup qualification. What a mess

Sin é wrote:I'm interpreting that they say their contract is finished at the end of this season with the Pro12 (started in 2009).

Benetton Rugby are willing to participate in any future comp. that FIR intend to promote, once the rules, regs and funds are clarified.

(Background to this is that FIR don't want to subsidise Treviso and Treviso want them to).

agree with that. benetton are letting their participation lapse (ie not renewing any participation agreement) and will wait to see what the FIR brings them and the financial terms, etc.

So where are we with the club side of things?  I've been very much sidetracked by overrating Ireland Inc over on other threads

Nobody has agreed to anything yet and nobody is talking to anybody still?

Fine.  I'll get back to the International pages.

TJ, I think the bit from the FIR is referring to the comments from ages ago whichever didn't actually say they're pulling them out. So no change yet. Treviso's comment doesn't actual mean anything.

Fly, nothing yet. Had read on Munster fans that the RRW have put AW league on hold until after the next lot of talks.

As for Ireland, I thought you were supposed to be talking down Ireland? Or will the talking down be more effective after a week of talking them up?

HammerofThunor wrote:TJ, I think the bit from the FIR is referring to the comments from ages ago whichever didn't actually say they're pulling them out. So no change yet. Treviso's comment doesn't actual mean anything.

Fly, nothing yet. Had read on Munster fans that the RRW have put AW league on hold until after the next lot of talks.

As for Ireland, I thought you were supposed to be talking down Ireland? Or will the talking down be more effective after a week of talking them up?

No no...that was just a little in joke for anyone who is over there on the England v Ireland thread.  

I thought I was doing a lovely balancing act of being nice to the English and saying "sure look, we'll have a go at winning ourselves too if we take the trouble to go over there".  And someone came on and kinda accused the Irish of being over-confident because we were saying we have a chance.   It was all just good fun though...it's a worryingly peaceful and funny place over there.  The phoney war as I call it.

You never. An agreement on European rugby may be round the corner and then peace will break out on all boards

Yeah, I caught the "you Irish folk seem pretty confident, we, sensible English chaps just have self belief."

Warburton has been sent back to His Region The Blues to help him get back up to speed for France.

Hmmmm.... now we'll see how dirty this war is. Will the Blues refuse to play him? Could be fireworks ahead if that happens.

SecretFly wrote:Warburton has been sent back to His Region The Blues to help him get back up to speed for France.

Hmmmm.... now we'll see how dirty this war is.  Will the Blues refuse to play him?  Could be fireworks ahead if that happens.

Wumming again Fly, you very well know the CC doesn't commence until start of 2014/15 Season

actually he's not wumming

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/sixnations/10631318/Six-Nations-2014-Sam-Warburton-sent-to-gain-fitness-with-Cardiff-Blues-as-he-bids-to-retain-Wales-spot.html

i assume fly was asking whether the blues would decline to play him this weekend? that would be seriously amusing.

quinsforever wrote:actually he's not wumming

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/sixnations/10631318/Six-Nations-2014-Sam-Warburton-sent-to-gain-fitness-with-Cardiff-Blues-as-he-bids-to-retain-Wales-spot.html

i assume fly was asking whether the blues would decline to play him this weekend? that would be seriously amusing.

I knew SW and GJ were going back to their Regions along with 8 others, why would the Regions refuse to play their best players, when said players are contracted to them.

wayne wrote:

quinsforever wrote:actually he's not wumming

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/sixnations/10631318/Six-Nations-2014-Sam-Warburton-sent-to-gain-fitness-with-Cardiff-Blues-as-he-bids-to-retain-Wales-spot.html

i assume fly was asking whether the blues would decline to play him this weekend? that would be seriously amusing.

I knew SW and GJ were going back to their Regions along with 8 others, why would the Regions refuse to play their best players, when said players are contracted to them.

I'll tell you why...and it's the same answer to your wumming point.  No, I'm not wumming.  The reason his Region might refuse to play him is because there has already been hooded warnings that that's exactly what might happen as protest about the WRU and their centrally contracted Warburton.

I have fun - yes.  But always with a dollop of truth backing me up.

SecretFly wrote:

wayne wrote:

quinsforever wrote:actually he's not wumming

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/sixnations/10631318/Six-Nations-2014-Sam-Warburton-sent-to-gain-fitness-with-Cardiff-Blues-as-he-bids-to-retain-Wales-spot.html

i assume fly was asking whether the blues would decline to play him this weekend? that would be seriously amusing.

I knew SW and GJ were going back to their Regions along with 8 others, why would the Regions refuse to play their best players, when said players are contracted to them.

I'll tell you why...and it's the same answer to your wumming point.  No, I'm not wumming.  The reason his Region might refuse to play him is because there has already been hooded warnings that that's exactly what might happen as protest about the WRU and their centrally contracted Warburton.

I have fun - yes.  But always with a dollop of truth backing me up.

Hooded Warnings = Crap

Sam warburton is only centrally contracted from next season meaning he's still a blues player, but Ellis Jenkins is doing a good job, so I wouldn't play warburton anyway.

wayne wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
The reason his Region might refuse to play him is because there has already been hooded warnings that that's exactly what might happen as protest about the WRU and their centrally contracted Warburton.

Hooded Warnings = Crap

Crap as in that warning was never thrown across the bow of WRU?

It appears Phil Davies is very pleased to have Warburton back:


Cardiff Blues chief Phil Davies delighted by return of Sam Warburton and Gethin Jenkins following Wales release.

Davies says he will discuss with Wales coach Warren Gatland how long they should get on the field in the Arms Park meeting with the Scots.

“It’s good news for us that they have been released,” he said.

“We have been struggling in those two areas. Prior to this week, we only had three fit back rowers in the group. So to have Sam come back is a great boost.

“It’s the same in the front row. We are pretty decimated there as well, so for Gethin to come back as well is great.

“I asked if they could be made available because they need game-time and we’ve got a lot of injuries and that request has been accepted to be fair. That’s good to be working together and it will be good benefit to us on Saturday night.

“I’m thankful that Warren has released them and we will include them obviously.

“They will get as long on the pitch as I suppose they’ll need to be honest. I will speak to Warren to see if there is any particular game-time limit.

“Arguably, starting them is the way to go.

“They will train with us Thursday, Friday and play Saturday, so it’s fine. They will slot in no problem and add quality.”

- by Simon Thomas. WalesOnline.

All is calm then. The WRU and Regions can co-operate, Promising.

SecretFly wrote:All is calm then.   The WRU and Regions can co-operate,  Promising.

I bet you had wished you had waited 9 minutes before you posted last.

wayne wrote:

SecretFly wrote:All is calm then.   The WRU and Regions can co-operate,  Promising.

I bet you had wished you had waited 9 minutes before you posted last.

I post what I post... no butterflies, no shame, no embarrassment - no crystal ball, wayne. Meanwhile I stand by the fact that the warning was given.

SecretFly wrote:All is calm then.   The WRU and Regions can co-operate,  Promising.

Yep, promising. Surprisingly positive from Davies. Hopefully a sign of regions, and WRU, being close to agreement.

SecretFly wrote:

wayne wrote:

SecretFly wrote:All is calm then.   The WRU and Regions can co-operate,  Promising.

I bet you had wished you had waited 9 minutes before you posted last.

I post what I post... no butterflies, no shame, no embarrassment - no crystal ball, wayne.  Meanwhile I stand by the fact that the warning was given.

Who warned you ? Goebbles Thornley

wayne wrote:
Who warned you ? Goebbles Thornley

Okay..., don't worry about it, wayne. You don't have to admit I'm right. Evasion will do.

SecretFly wrote:

wayne wrote:
Who warned you ? Goebbles Thornley

Okay..., don't worry about it, wayne.  You don't have to admit I'm right. Evasion will do.  

Your right I don't have to admit your right.

Grammar, pls wayne: "You're right, I don't have to admit you're right"

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Grammar, pls wayne: "You're right, I don't have to admit you're right"

Did you know what he meant? I can assume so as you felt the need to correct him. That's what's important.   

SecretFly wrote:All is calm then.   The WRU and Regions can co-operate,  Promising.

Only because it suits the WRU.   

HammerofThunor wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Grammar, pls wayne: "You're right, I don't have to admit you're right"

Did you know what he meant? I can assume so as you felt the need to correct him. That's what's important.    

Hammer don't bother, If they do not know what I'm trying to say that is tough on them, Fly IMO came on with a bit of mischief making saying Sam wouldn't be selected even though Phil Davies in the Wales on line article stated that he asked Gatland if he could have him and Gethin back, the Grammar might not have been perfect but so what. IMO as I said Fly was into a bit of mischief making and I reciprocated in the later exchanges so all a bit of fun really

It's good to have a little fun.  If the boardroom boys of Rugby are kicking the living daylights out of each other behind the scenes (negotiation wise) then the least us onlookers can do is change the focus and have a little fun with the topic.

wayne is right - I'm a mischief maker if I spot a story that's doing a loop

Twitter seems to be suggesting:
England AI's will go to BT
Sky will retain the European Cup run by the 6N (20 teams and qualification as mentioned in October)
No AW
Welsh Regions will be playing in the Pronn, or nowhere

e.g. Simon Thomas ‏@simonrug 3m So, the whisper seems to be a Euro peace deal could be achieved by BT stepping away from Europe, maybe in return for England autumn Tests.

Alastair Eykyn ‏@alastaireykyn 4m

6N 'stakeholders'(unions & clubs) Paris meeting "constructive, & progress was made, w all parties working towards a European competition"

Not sure if I'm happy or not regarding the AI (if it goes ahead). On the plus side, I'd get to watch the AI at home with BT. On the negative side it means there would be fewer rugby games on BT (assuming the Euro cup would have been replaced by English cup minimum) and it's easy to watch a few games in the pub or just get sky sports for a month for the AI.

I don't really understand how it would work. Would it be from next year, so Sky are ending their contract early? How would that effect other deals (LV, Championship, etc) which are part of the same deal? Or is it, as was suggested a while back, that they would be open to bid for the next contract (which in itself suggests a closed shop, mutual 'making happy', love in between the RFU and Sky.

Come on PRL and RRW. Can't wait any longer. Just push the Anglo-Welsh button.

I would suggest that with only 1 year to go on the AI deal Sky are prepared to waiver it in return for securing the European competition.
BT clearly want to get into International rugby.
If RFU/PRL are happy it would suggest that they have got some extra money from the AI's.

All specualtion for sure - what does seem clear is that as time moves on the chances of an AW are receeding far into the distance and remain little more than a Welsh regions pipe dream.

The English games wants a European competition far more than an AW.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Come on PRL and RRW. Can't wait any longer. Just push the Anglo-Welsh button.

Hope you don't feel lonely over there in that land of flying pigs and.......what's that...... is it the sound of hell freezing over?

Nah. Sorry. Welsh teams still in the Rabo.

Oh well. Just have to get on with it I suppose. Even if it is less fun than whinging and moaning the whole time.   

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Come on PRL and RRW. Can't wait any longer. Just push the Anglo-Welsh button.

Hope you don't feel lonely over there in that land of flying pigs and.......what's that...... is it the sound of hell freezing over?

Nah. Sorry. Welsh teams still in the Rabo.

Oh well. Just have to get on with it I suppose. Even if it is less fun than whinging and moaning the whole time.   

It will be the death of welsh pro domestic rugby if the regions are forced into a celtic league under similar PA terms as currently.

Perhaps you could have a Welsh-Italian league?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Come on PRL and RRW. Can't wait any longer. Just push the Anglo-Welsh button.

Hope you don't feel lonely over there in that land of flying pigs and.......what's that...... is it the sound of hell freezing over?

Nah. Sorry. Welsh teams still in the Rabo.

Oh well. Just have to get on with it I suppose. Even if it is less fun than whinging and moaning the whole time.   

It will be the death of welsh pro domestic rugby if the regions are forced into a celtic league under similar PA terms as currently.

I'm not saying they should be. They would want to cop themselves on though. So many of their problems are down to themselves but they want to blame it ALL on the WRU, and live in some cloud cuckoo land where joining the prem (even allowing for the fact that it is impossible) will sort out ALL their problems.

It's like someone who is fat, ugly and has no personality thinking that their whole life would be sorted if they just lost weight.

St John The Enforcer wrote:
I'm not saying they should be. They would want to cop themselves on though. So many of their problems are down to themselves but they want to blame it ALL on the WRU, and live in some cloud cuckoo land where joining the prem (even allowing for the fact that it is impossible) will sort out ALL their problems.

It's like someone who is fat, ugly and has no personality thinking that their whole life would be sorted if they just lost weight.

Don't know where to start with that load of nonsense.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:
I'm not saying they should be. They would want to cop themselves on though. So many of their problems are down to themselves but they want to blame it ALL on the WRU, and live in some cloud cuckoo land where joining the prem (even allowing for the fact that it is impossible) will sort out ALL their problems.

It's like someone who is fat, ugly and has no personality thinking that their whole life would be sorted if they just lost weight.

Don't know where to start with that load of nonsense.

Truth hurts sometimes.

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:
I'm not saying they should be. They would want to cop themselves on though. So many of their problems are down to themselves but they want to blame it ALL on the WRU, and live in some cloud cuckoo land where joining the prem (even allowing for the fact that it is impossible) will sort out ALL their problems.

It's like someone who is fat, ugly and has no personality thinking that their whole life would be sorted if they just lost weight.

Don't know where to start with that load of nonsense.

Truth hurts sometimes.

Except there is not one ounce of truth in any of what you posted. Apart from the fat person bit.

So ALL of the Regions issues are down to the WRU and "having to play in the Rabo?"

Fair enough. I must be on drugs.......Unless.....