Pirates of the South Seas

First topic message reminder :

http://www.nzrugbyworld.co.nz/features/161/plunder-in-the-pacific

I am sure most of you will be aware of this article.

It is a damning indictment of pro rugby and for those that haven't read it I think it is worth your while to do so.

It seems the NZ trend for 'protecting' or ring fencing  Pacific Island players, especially Samoans, is becoming a ruse de guerre for all the big Unions. That more PI born players played in this years lions than Scots born is a worrying trend indicative of mercenaries not rugby players.

What we are seeing in France is a micro version of what NZ has been doing for years, offering the big bucks to the most talented players which may be contributing to the erosion of regional rugby in Wales. However in France this has only been a club level entity whereas New Zealand has a history of enabling players to gain eligibility for the national team. Much  as I admire NZ achievements, their results must be taken in context of who is playing for them and the plain fact is that NZ has by geography alone, directly gained form the talents of players born in another country.

Lam, Bunce and Bachop for example, all proud Samoans who played for that country but also played for the All Blacks. It has rightly been the subject of derision amongst some of the rugby world that the All Blacks do this, but it now seems we are all engaged in this unpalatable method of disproportionately padding out our teams with the most naturally gifted players in the world.

And what we are doing is much more than teaching them to tackle properly, because we stand to gain much more while they stand to lose it all. It is stripping the PI of it's rugby heritage. With England especially now latching on to NZ have been doing for years the gap will close sooner than you'd think.

Frankly I think it is pretty shameful but I accept it is inevitable in the same way Welsh Union players fled to league for the money, so the PI players seek their fame and fortune by following the demand for big quick men.

But when i read a Union is setting a target to 'protect' that vested interest it peaks my interest and sticks in my craw. If that means protecting them from playing in other Unions and their own then it must be stopped. What we should be doing is investing in PI rugby and, as I have read about this week, getting their grassroots game to a competitive standard so that these nations with a wealth of natural talent can compete where they belong with the best nations in the world.

Its the three year residency thing that is the issue. if you were a young promising player at 18 / 19 years of age and offered big money to go to France - or England - to play, and then found yourself at the age of 22 asked if you wanted to represent france, then you would.

Don't forget Zimbabweans and Namibians playing for South Africa, there have been a few.

I would prefer to see residency qualification stopped at say 16. So the country you grew up in - or were born in - regardless of where your parents were from - is the country you would play for.

So toby Faletau, whose father came to wales to play, and where Toby spent most of his life, is whom he would represent. Toby has a great welsh accent. Even manu Tuilagu who came to the Uk at 12 / 13 I would regard as English as he lived there as a kid. same for all the polynesian boys growing up in Auckland City.

I think the real answer is developing pro rugby in the Islands/ Zimbabawe ( ! ) and namibia so that players have the opportunity to stay there and represent their homeland and earn a decent wage whilst there.

Look who England got - Thomas Waldrom !

Correct, the following Zimbabweans have represented SA.

Salty du Randt 21 caps
Ray Mordt 18 caps
Adrian Garvey 28 caps
Tendai Mtwarira 51 caps
Brian Mujati 12 caps
Tonderai Chavanga 4 caps
Ryk van Schoor 12 caps

Two Namibian players have represented SA, Jan Ellis (Namibia was still part of RSA then, and Percy Montgomery who was born in Namibia but schooled in SA.

How are you for Zambians, Biltong?

Don't think we ever had Zambians play for us LB, will have to check though.

Zimbabwean rugby history with SA has been a long one, they used to play in our Currie Cup and many Zimbabweans move to SA due to their circumstances, if you consider those that have moved here it is very much similar to the Pacific Islanders and their seeking for better lives here.

Corne Krige was born in Zambia but was schooled in SA, the only one I could find confirmation of birth for.

Biltong wrote:Correct, the following Zimbabweans have represented SA.

Salty du Randt 21 caps
Ray Mordt 18 caps
Adrian Garvey 28 caps
Tendai Mtwarira 51 caps
Brian Mujati 12 caps
Tonderai Chavanga 4 caps
Ryk van Schoor 12 caps

Two Namibian players have represented SA, Jan Ellis (Namibia was still part of RSA then, and Percy Montgomery who was born in Namibia but schooled in SA.

There's a few more than that.......... Bobby Skinstad ? Gary Teichmann ? Andy Marinos ? ( not sure he was ever a springbok but he did play for Wales ! )

And what about Quade Cooper ? No one seems to have accused the Aussies of poaching him. LOL. david pocock is zimbabwean.

This is really interesting. It seems the biggest 'poachers' are Samoa and Italy, and the biggets - by far are NZ with 38 players exported !

http://www.rugby15.co.za/2011/09/rwc-2011-players-born-in-other-countries/

Importers and Exporters :

Importers:
15: Samoa (all from New Zealand)
12: USA
11: Italy
10: Japan
9: Tonga
8: England
7: Australia, Scotland
5: Canada, Fiji, Namibia, Wales
4: Ireland, New Zealand
2: France, Russia
1: South Africa
0: Argentina, Georgia, Romania

Exporters:
38: New Zealand
13: Australia, South Africa
6: Argentina, England
5: American Samoa, Samoa
4: Tonga
3: Fiji
2: Hong Kong, USA, Zimbabwe
1: Burkina Faso, Canada, Cote d’Ivoire, Israel, Kenya, Mexico, Scotland, Uzbekistan
0: France, Georgia, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Namibia, Romania, Russia, Wales

George Gregan and Corne Krige former Bok captain are Zambian, apparently Krige's parents still live there.

No idea why I am interested in this ?

looks like the Samoans are poaching players from New Zealand actually !!!!!

Bluedragon wrote:

Biltong wrote:Correct, the following Zimbabweans have represented SA.

Salty du Randt 21 caps
Ray Mordt 18 caps
Adrian Garvey 28 caps
Tendai Mtwarira 51 caps
Brian Mujati 12 caps
Tonderai Chavanga 4 caps
Ryk van Schoor 12 caps

Two Namibian players have represented SA, Jan Ellis (Namibia was still part of RSA then, and Percy Montgomery who was born in Namibia but schooled in SA.

There's a few more than that.......... Bobby Skinstad ? Gary Teichmann ? Andy Marinos ? ( not sure he was ever a springbok but he did play for Wales ! )

And what about Quade Cooper ? No one seems to have accused the Aussies of poaching him. LOL. david pocock is zimbabwean.

skinstad was schooled in SA, same with Teichman, there is a lot of migration to SA, we currently have close to ten million non residents, mostly from Africa, Zimbabweans immigrated in their droves to SA in the late 20 century.

So I doubt any of those can be seen as being poached in any way.

Quite a number of South African farmers have migrated into Africa to provide food production. Many of these kids are educated in SA due to the poor infrastructure in Africa.

Similarly the neighbouring countries even have their schools represented in our Craven week as well. Both Namibia and Zimbabwe had been taking part in the Currie Cup and until very recently the Vodacom cup.

Kenya has been invited to take part in the Vodacom Cup this year and will be part of the Southern conference which means the cost of travelling has been reduced for them to keep expenses as low as possible.

I think the few players we have actually benefitted from (Mujati, Beast, Chavanga) is neglegible when you consider how much we do for rugby union in Africa.

On top of that it is really only Beast that as had a solid career for the Boks. Chavanga and Mujati was dropped very early in their Bok careers

Bluedragon wrote:This is really interesting. It seems the biggest 'poachers' are Samoa and Italy, and the biggets - by far are NZ with 38 players exported !

http://www.rugby15.co.za/2011/09/rwc-2011-players-born-in-other-countries/

Importers and Exporters :

Importers:
15: Samoa (all from New Zealand)
12: USA
11: Italy
10: Japan
9: Tonga
8: England
7: Australia, Scotland
5: Canada, Fiji, Namibia, Wales
4: Ireland, New Zealand
2: France, Russia
1: South Africa
0: Argentina, Georgia, Romania

Exporters:
38: New Zealand
13: Australia, South Africa
6: Argentina, England
5: American Samoa, Samoa
4: Tonga
3: Fiji
2: Hong Kong, USA, Zimbabwe
1: Burkina Faso, Canada, Cote d’Ivoire, Israel, Kenya, Mexico, Scotland, Uzbekistan
0: France, Georgia, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Namibia, Romania, Russia, Wales

Matches the Michael Jones philosophy...Its better to give than receive...  

How many of the Samoa players had strong Samoan heritage though and grew up dreaming of playing for Samoa despite living in a different country like for example Nonu?

These stats are meaningless as each player is different. Its impossible to tell who has actually been poached and who has played for the country they always wanted to represent despite not living in the county.

Then you have situations such Ewers who had to leave Zimbabwe due to difficult times in the country and I'm sure that despite being a proud Zimbabwean would never even think about representing the national team.

Biltong wrote:Quite a number of South African farmers have migrated into Africa to provide food production. Many of these kids are educated in SA due to the poor infrastructure in Africa.

Similarly the neighbouring countries even have their schools represented in our Craven week as well. Both Namibia and Zimbabwe had been taking part in the Currie Cup and until very recently the Vodacom cup.

Kenya has been invited to take part in the Vodacom Cup this year and will be part of the Southern conference which means the cost of travelling has been reduced for them to keep expenses as low as possible.

I think the few players we have actually benefitted from (Mujati, Beast, Chavanga) is neglegible when you consider how much we do for rugby union in Africa.

On top of that it is really only Beast that as had a solid career for the Boks. Chavanga and Mujati was dropped very early in their Bok careers

Please don't think that I wasn't having a go at SA. I know the outstanding work they do in promoting Rugby across southern Africa. Its exciting to hear of the cross border competitions, I didn't know that. Its a bit like English born players playing for wales - their families just moved when they were kids and they grew up in wales.

Just cos Jamie heaslip appears to have been born ( rather randomly ) in israel as his dad was working there doesn't make him Israeli. If you've ever seen him interviewed you'll recognsie that accent ! i guess thats the modern world isn't it ?

Its very understandable why Zimbaweans choose to leave. I would especially for my kids future.

No worries Bluedragon, it was more intented as information than a defence

LeinsterFan4life wrote:How many of the Samoa players had strong Samoan heritage though and grew up dreaming of playing for Samoa despite living in a different country like for example Nonu?

These stats are meaningless as each player is different. Its impossible to tell who has actually been poached and who has played for the country they always wanted to represent despite not living in the county.

Then you have situations such Ewers who had to leave Zimbabwe due to difficult times in the country and I'm sure that despite being a proud Zimbabwean would never even think about representing the national team.

I will concede there are some random birthplaces in there - Jamie heaslip being born in israel for example. But it does sort of counter the assumption of poaching of pacific islanders by new Zealand if you read the names ?

PS No one seems to want Welsh or Irish players BEFORE they are capped. Will this change ?

And what's that American Ronan O Gara doing getting all those caps for Ireland ????????   

Bluedragon wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:How many of the Samoa players had strong Samoan heritage though and grew up dreaming of playing for Samoa despite living in a different country like for example Nonu?

These stats are meaningless as each player is different. Its impossible to tell who has actually been poached and who has played for the country they always wanted to represent despite not living in the county.

Then you have situations such Ewers who had to leave Zimbabwe due to difficult times in the country and I'm sure that despite being a proud Zimbabwean would never even think about representing the national team.

I will concede there are some random birthplaces in there - Jamie heaslip being born in israel for example. But it does sort of counter the assumption of poaching of pacific islanders by new Zealand if you read them names ?

PS No one seems to want Welsh or Irish players BEFORE they are capped. Will this change ?

Exactly, counting Heaslip is laughable which is why these stats don't tell me anything. I'm sure a lot of them Samoan players had strong Samoan links and even grew up wanting to play for Samoa. Likewise some of the other nations there.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:How many of the Samoa players had strong Samoan heritage though and grew up dreaming of playing for Samoa despite living in a different country like for example Nonu?

These stats are meaningless as each player is different. Its impossible to tell who has actually been poached and who has played for the country they always wanted to represent despite not living in the county.

A player can surely not be considered poached if he is playing in the country he was born in? And Nonu dreamed of playing for Samoa? Where did that come from? He was born, schooled and played all his rugby in Wellington. NZ has huge communities of the Island population who started migrating here from the 60's onwards.

It is only when these players can't make the NZ side that they 'dream' of playing for Samoa. Same thing is for players like Sean Maitland. He is an exact example of what you are saying. he never dreamed of playing for Scotland- he may have dreamed of playing internationally.

Though Island heritage players do have more of a tie with their homeland than probably does Maitland, but thats mainly because of the sheer numbers living here.

When did I say he was poached?!?! You can believe what you want Taylorman but in the link provided if you bothered to read it, Nonu is quoted as saying the following:
“When I was at primary school, I always wanted to play for Samoa,” says Ma’a Nonu. “I had a strong background. Samoa was a priority – I watched the All Blacks – but I felt drawn to Samoa".

Like I keep saying each player is different. Its impossible to determine who is poached and who isn't!

To back up my point here is what Mealamu said

"Yes I did want to play for them (Samoa) especially as I am from the same heritage. It was inspiring for me and my brother and I think that team that played then, there were quite a few players we looked up to and every now and again I still like to watch a few of those games on the Rugby Channel.”

I'm not saying these guys where poached I'm saying there are guys who would love to play for Samoa who grew up in NZ. Enough of the whole "Samoa are only taking the NZ rejects" as that is clearly BS.

The last three posts actually seem to overlook the fact that many of these Pascific islanders are from strong samoan communities in New Zealand, and it is their churchs and "whanau" which instills in them proud connections to their Islands from which there families may have migrated but still hold very strong long term bonds.

Poaching just doesnt come into it.

Roll on the time when the IRB can think outside the bounds of their restrictive Anglo saxon ways of thinking, and let players interchange between representing both first and second tier nations.

It wil be good for the players,
It will be good for the second tier nations,
And more importantly it will be good for Rugby.

Totally agree with Laurie, second tier nations add so much in value to many nations, the only winner is usually the tier one nations, but the "glass ceiling effect" spoken about here often prevents the second tier nations from being as competitive as they could be, and allowing players from former tier two nations to go back and represent their nations of birth should be allowed.

But only those who have been born there.

Well said Biltong and laurie.

There is a player who has just signed for Cardiff Blues from pontypridd who is Welsh born and bred, but played for Cyprus as he has a cypriot father and won't probably play for Wales. We are not sure whether he is NON Welsh qualified. Seems a bit crazy doesn't it ?

This all came about though because of the bachop brothers in 95/99 - and others. Played for Samoa, japan and NZ between the 2 of them. 1 played for samoa then NZ, the other played for NZ then japan. It tried to stop players being bought after a world cup to qualify for next world cup through residency.

Biltong wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Biltong wrote:Why do you New Zealand guys even engage on this topic?

Same reasons that us UK folk comment on GE's stuff. Because it's there

exactly. And how many times does a donkey hit its head against the same wall?

If only someone had asked that of Mike Tindall

I was talking to a Samoan rugby playing colleague of mine a little while ago about the idea that NZ born and bred Samoans might prefer to play for Samoa rather than NZ. He agreed that it was a little strange even though he felt the same way we sort of came to an eventual conclusion about the tightness of the Samoan communities where they are still speaking Samoan. We both figured it would peter out in another generation or so just like other migrant groups. For example he is a NZ born Samoan but his girl friend is a China born Chinese.

Bluedragon wrote:Well said Biltong and laurie.

There is a player who has just signed for Cardiff Blues from pontypridd who is Welsh born and bred, but played for Cyprus as he has a cypriot father and won't probably play for Wales. We are not sure whether he is NON Welsh qualified. Seems a bit crazy doesn't it ?

This all came about though because of the bachop brothers in 95/99 - and others. Played for Samoa, japan and NZ between the 2 of them. 1 played for samoa then NZ, the other played for NZ then japan. It tried to stop players being bought after a world cup to qualify for next world cup through residency.

Is Cyprus affiliated to the IRB? I can't find them in the rankings table.

Surely this guy is still eligible for Wales.

[ed] : not listed as a member union on the IRB site either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t84Ev9-s0d4

Spot the New Zealanders in this video.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t84Ev9-s0d4

Spot the New Zealanders in this video.

Must have been one of the numerous tours of Samoa, Fiji and Tonga that the All Blacks have gone on