Wales captain Sam Warburton signs WRU central contract

by Kingshu Sat 25 Jan 2014, 4:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25896487

Central Contract?

Well this was coming, so what happens now?

I though that the regions wouldn't play Centrally contracted players, but Lewis said

"I am extremely grateful to the Cardiff Blues chairman, Peter Thomas, for his understanding when the WRU chairman [David Pickering] and I met him on Wednesday to outline this proposed plan.

So have Cardiff Blues broken rank? or has there been a change in stance by all the regions?

Its good news for Cardiff Blues fans, and fans of the Pro 12 to be keeping a top player, but will it end or make the infighting worse?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu 30 Jan 2014, 1:09 pm

Notch wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:

I know he said the uncertainty of where he would be playing was a big decision but lets say Toulon had come in for him then he would know where he would be playing then and I think that if the money was more from them then he might have gone - who wouldn't?

Heaslip and O'Brien are two

The reason they can be persuaded to stay? The miracle of central contracting! The regions really do have their heads in the sand here. They've stated its not economic for them to compete with the French money, but they won't let the Union- who can compete- do so. So all the best players leave Wales.

Not exactly a great long-term strategy is it? Did the regions honestly believe that they could let big-name internationals go and the system would go on unchanged?

by Chunky Norwich Thu 30 Jan 2014, 1:30 pm

I love the way that others always think they know what's best for you and yours.

by Guest Thu 30 Jan 2014, 1:30 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:I love the way that others always think they know what's best for you and yours.

Particularly outsiders.

by **rodders** Thu 30 Jan 2014, 1:34 pm

...We don't like outsiders in these parts....

by Irish Londoner Thu 30 Jan 2014, 1:52 pm

rodders wrote:...We don't like outsiders in these parts....

You have to remember that in certain parts of Wales an outsider is someone who comes from a place more than a mile away up or down the valley - and a foreigner is anyone from outside the valley.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu 30 Jan 2014, 1:55 pm

Risca Rev wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:I love the way that others always think they know what's best for you and yours.

Particularly outsiders.

Dead on, lads - you're not entitled to an opinion unless you're Welsh clap

by **rodders** Thu 30 Jan 2014, 2:08 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:I love the way that others always think they know what's best for you and yours.

Particularly outsiders.
Dead on, lads - you're not entitled to an opinion unless you're Welsh

And your not allowed to say dead on unless your from Norn Iron hi... Cool

.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu 30 Jan 2014, 2:12 pm

Can I be a token Nordie, rodders?!

by **rodders** Thu 30 Jan 2014, 2:22 pm

Sure ASBO but tip no 1 a nordie never refers to himself as a nordie.

In fact most nordies are actually trying to convince everyone they're Scottish so you should do all right ...d' ye ken?

Braveheart

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu 30 Jan 2014, 2:51 pm

Gotcha

by wayne Thu 30 Jan 2014, 4:26 pm

SecretFly wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
wales606 wrote:http://www.cardiffblues.com/news/6785.php#.Uun4_Pn1GuI

The Blues will NOT play Sam Warburton unless the WRU agree to a long term financial model.

Haven't they got one?? Its called the Participation Agreement, no?

The PA is dead and buried, there is now this Rugby Strategy Plan (of whatever it is called) being drafted up and edited etc. but unless the European and Rabo issues are sorted by midnight tomorrow the regions will not sign, so it comes down to 39hrs until the poop storm kicks up a gear.

Wasn't there already something in the media this week about an agreement between Regions and PRL (contracts already signed according to the article I read) for a new 16team League, to be announced tomorrow?

The gap between reality and fantasy in rugby union these last few months makes it truly a mockery of a sport in the eyes of the world. It's getting embarrasing the number of people/sources who appear promising that all is wrapped up and 'contracts is signed!' only for us to hear that it's been yet another childish bluff to try to force more concessions.

So we wait again - this time for tomorrow and what the alleged promise of Friday might bring.

SF, I know you are not thick, the article you read would have said this would only be set up IF something wouldn't happen, read the article again, further on in this topic you state that only 6 teams from this League could qualify for the next pan-european competition, again IF this League is set up there will be NO pan-european competition taking place with English clubs and these 4 Regions involved, this is their back up position, they WANT a pan-european competition while negotiating their OWN deals, which I suspect you already know

by wayne Thu 30 Jan 2014, 4:44 pm

Notch wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:

I know he said the uncertainty of where he would be playing was a big decision but lets say Toulon had come in for him then he would know where he would be playing then and I think that if the money was more from them then he might have gone - who wouldn't?

Heaslip and O'Brien are two

The reason they can be persuaded to stay? The miracle of central contracting! The regions really do have their heads in the sand here. They've stated its not economic for them to compete with the French money, but they won't let the Union- who can compete- do so. So all the best players leave Wales.

Not exactly a great long-term strategy is it? Did the regions honestly believe that they could let big-name internationals go and the system would go on unchanged?

Notch, I've explained this to you before, so you either do not believe me or you cannot understand what I'm saying, it was NOT the Regions that said they are unable to match or compete with French money, it was the very respected Financial firm Price Waterhouse Cooper in their WRU commissioned report that stated this, and that there was also not enough money within the WRU coffers to be able to support Central Contracts so why you and others keep harping back to this defies logic.

by Cardiff Dave Thu 30 Jan 2014, 4:56 pm

wayne wrote:
Notch wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:

I know he said the uncertainty of where he would be playing was a big decision but lets say Toulon had come in for him then he would know where he would be playing then and I think that if the money was more from them then he might have gone - who wouldn't?

Heaslip and O'Brien are two

The reason they can be persuaded to stay? The miracle of central contracting! The regions really do have their heads in the sand here. They've stated its not economic for them to compete with the French money, but they won't let the Union- who can compete- do so. So all the best players leave Wales.

Not exactly a great long-term strategy is it? Did the regions honestly believe that they could let big-name internationals go and the system would go on unchanged?
Notch, I've explained this to you before, so you either do not believe me or you cannot understand what I'm saying, it was NOT the Regions that said they are unable to match or compete with French money, it was the very respected Financial firm Price Waterhouse Cooper in their WRU commissioned report that stated this, and that there was also not enough money within the WRU coffers to be able to support Central Contracts so why you and others keep harping back to this defies logic.

Was this the last time Pickering said anything;

'We won't bankrupt WRU' over salaries, says David Pickering

Chairman David Pickering says he is not prepared to "bankrupt" the Welsh Rugby Union to keep top players in Wales.

The WRU has offered to centrally contract the "entire international squad of players within Wales".

But Pickering says the salaries on those contracts would not compete with those offered by French clubs with budgets of "26 to 28 million euros".

"I'm not prepared to enter into a position where we bankrupt the Union - I will not do it, it's wrong," he said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22542332

by Sin é Thu 30 Jan 2014, 5:38 pm

What Pickering is saying that they are not going to match what the French clubs offer. Warburton is getting around 300K (I think). On that basis, central contracting players 15 players would cost the WRU a lot less than 5m.

by Stone Motif Thu 30 Jan 2014, 5:52 pm

Sin é wrote:What Pickering is saying that they are not going to match what the French clubs offer. Warburton is getting around 300K (I think). On that basis, central contracting players 15 players would cost the WRU a lot less than 5m.

A) Warburton is a special case, he would be broken within weeks of landing in the south of France. Other players offer a lot more value and are worth a lot more.

B) 15 players - what, like the best in their position? So if Warburton gets a three year contract then Tipuric for example can go and sing for three years, despite arguably being a better player and offering much more value per amount of games played?

C) The contract salary itself is just the start. There are additional costs on top of that. Such as setting up three regions with no private backing, no players, no infrastructure, no decent competitions to play in and no fans for your centrally contracted wunderkinds to play in twice a season.

by HammerofThunor Thu 30 Jan 2014, 6:23 pm

Sin é wrote:What Pickering is saying that they are not going to match what the French clubs offer. Warburton is getting around 300K (I think). On that basis, central contracting players 15 players would cost the WRU a lot less than 5m.

Of course they could have given the Blues another £100k to supplement their £200k offer and saved themselves £200k

by quinsforever Thu 30 Jan 2014, 9:27 pm

200% right Hammer.

so why didnt they?

by doctornickolas Thu 30 Jan 2014, 9:34 pm

quinsforever wrote:200% right Hammer.

so why didnt they?

because the regions will just take that money, get rid of the Welsh player and sign a Samoan or Romanian or Canadian on much less money.

by quinsforever Thu 30 Jan 2014, 9:37 pm

doctornickolas wrote:
quinsforever wrote:200% right Hammer.

so why didnt they?

because the regions will just take that money, get rid of the Welsh player and sign a Samoan or Romanian or Canadian on much less money.

thoughtful response. doesnt come across as unbalanced at all. hammer, and i, were assuming that the £100k extra channeled to the blues would be conditional on them signing WRUburton.

it's kind of a mirror image of the WRU claiming all the TV and league sponsorship revenues of the regions as their own and running them through the WRU books to make them look bigger.

by wayne Thu 30 Jan 2014, 9:40 pm

doctornickolas wrote:
quinsforever wrote:200% right Hammer.

so why didnt they?

because the regions will just take that money, get rid of the Welsh player and sign a Samoan or Romanian or Canadian on much less money.

Yes like the Ospreys did with AWJ

by Sin é Thu 30 Jan 2014, 10:00 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
Sin é wrote:What Pickering is saying that they are not going to match what the French clubs offer. Warburton is getting around 300K (I think). On that basis, central contracting players 15 players would cost the WRU a lot less than 5m.

A) Warburton is a special case, he would be broken within weeks of landing in the south of France. Other players offer a lot more value and are worth a lot more.

B) 15 players - what, like the best in their position? So if Warburton gets a three year contract then Tipuric for example can go and sing for three years, despite arguably being a better player and offering much more value per amount of games played?

C) The contract salary itself is just the start. There are additional costs on top of that. Such as setting up three regions with no private backing, no players, no infrastructure, no decent competitions to play in and no fans for your centrally contracted wunderkinds to play in twice a season.

a) Sam could sun himself and his injuries in the South of France rather than in South Wales. If he went to a club like Toulon, bearing in mind the number of backrowers they have, he would be nearly lucky to get a game. Look at what happened to Gethin Jenkins when with them. Warburton would not be flogged there.

b) Bearing in mind that Robers, Phillips, Lydiate, are already in France and Davies & 1/penny is on his way, that frees up 5 central contracts for players like Tipuric.

c) They already have regions - why would they set up more? If the regions won't play them, I'm sure there are lots of English clubs who would be delighted to take them for a small fee from the WRU.

by Sin é Thu 30 Jan 2014, 10:02 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
Sin é wrote:What Pickering is saying that they are not going to match what the French clubs offer. Warburton is getting around 300K (I think). On that basis, central contracting players 15 players would cost the WRU a lot less than 5m.

Of course they could have given the Blues another £100k to supplement their £200k offer and saved themselves £200k

The Regions are just a big black hole for money. For the amount of money that is put into the Regions by the WRU, they really have very little say.

As a matter of interest - wasn't Cuthbert on a WRU 7s contract when he started playing for the Blues?

by HammerofThunor Thu 30 Jan 2014, 10:55 pm

Sin é wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
Sin é wrote:What Pickering is saying that they are not going to match what the French clubs offer. Warburton is getting around 300K (I think). On that basis, central contracting players 15 players would cost the WRU a lot less than 5m.

Of course they could have given the Blues another £100k to supplement their £200k offer and saved themselves £200k

The Regions are just a big black hole for money. For the amount of money that is put into the Regions by the WRU, they really have very little say.

As a matter of interest - wasn't Cuthbert on a WRU 7s contract when he started playing for the Blues?

Very little say? Other than limiting the numbers of foreign players, gaining as much access to players as they want (for full, U20 and 7s). Out of curiosity what more do they want? Have a veto for all non-WQ players? That would be reasonable but probably unnecessary with a tighter limit (it's supposed be 6 per region now).

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 30 Jan 2014, 11:21 pm

Thunor, the union also have to rubber stamp all signings of players and coaches too.

by HammerofThunor Fri 31 Jan 2014, 8:02 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Thunor, the union also have to rubber stamp all signings of players and coaches too.

Already? Or that's what they probably want?

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 31 Jan 2014, 8:34 am

Already. The Dragons had to wait before they could let Iestyn Thomas start as a forwards coach because the union hadn't signed it off

http://aggbot.com/Welsh-International-Rugby-Union-News/article/17462926 wrote:"Iestyn has been working for us for a few weeks on a consultancy basis," said Dragons director of rugby Robert Beale.

"He has been in for a few weeks and the front row forwards, in particular, have really taken on board his advice."

Beale said there are "a few issues" that need to be settled with the WRU before Thomas can be officially appointed.

"Hopefully they will be settled in the next week or two and we will make a positive announcement but he has had a positive impact on our scrum," he added.

These are the sort of things that the welsh public are rarely made aware of, but the union really have held the strings on so many things, whilst pretending to be totally uninvolved.

by Cardiff Dave Fri 31 Jan 2014, 9:55 am

quinsforever wrote:200% right Hammer.

so why didnt they?

Good question.

by Chunky Norwich Fri 31 Jan 2014, 9:58 am

Sin é wrote:
The Regions are just a big black hole for money. For the amount of money that is put into the Regions by the WRU, they really have very little say.

Jesus Christ. What are you talking about?

The RFU pays more than twice as much (£13m) to their clubs and they get roughly the same deal.

More ill-informed ignorance of Northern Hemisphere rugby.

by HammerofThunor Fri 31 Jan 2014, 10:04 am

Cardiff Dave wrote:
quinsforever wrote:200% right Hammer.

so why didnt they?

Good question.

Because they're a black hole of money, apparantly

by HammerofThunor Fri 31 Jan 2014, 10:05 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Already. The Dragons had to wait before they could let Iestyn Thomas start as a forwards coach because the union hadn't signed it off

http://aggbot.com/Welsh-International-Rugby-Union-News/article/17462926 wrote:-snip-

These are the sort of things that the welsh public are rarely made aware of, but the union really have held the strings on so many things, whilst pretending to be totally uninvolved.

So, I ask again, what MORE control do the WRU want? What control do they want that they couldn't get with a new PA?

by Cardiff Dave Fri 31 Jan 2014, 10:19 am

HammerofThunor wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
quinsforever wrote:200% right Hammer.

so why didnt they?

Good question.

Because they're a black hole of money, apparantly

Oh aye. Plus the WRU have little say supposedly. Best not mention the 4th AI, 13 day rule, etc.

by Feckless Rogue Fri 31 Jan 2014, 3:35 pm

Fair play to him. I respect players like O'Driscoll, McCaw who stay loyal to their home team despite the chance of more money abroad. It shows how much it means to these guys. I also heard that AW Jones signed with the Ospreys. It's good to know some people believe in the future of Welsh domestic rugby, despite all the uncertainty.

And fans are actually abusing him on twitter? That just drives it home to me that I don't understand the Welsh rugby situation at all. Because I can't get my head around that.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 31 Jan 2014, 3:48 pm

Feckless, easiest way to put it, other than just plain tools which they probably are, the situation is rugby civil war and WRUburton has edged his bets, and pocketed extra cash, switched alligance the enemy but claims to have only done so in order to still be on the same side as before still. Emotions are high, and some folk struggle to articulate their views because of it.

Truth be told though, most the 'abuse' has been hyped up, and was off total and utter £#%£# that just like mouthing off.

by Luckless Pedestrian Sat 01 Feb 2014, 12:43 pm

I've seen a lot of disappointment, but no personal abuse of Sam at all. He's said himself that he only had two negative tweets, something like that. Derwyn Jones has confused anger at the deal with abuse of the man who signed it.

It's funny that there isn't a peep from the media when Rhys Priestland genuinely does get abuse just for being selected ahead of Dan Biggar.

by Chunky Norwich Mon 03 Feb 2014, 10:49 am

HammerofThunor wrote:
So, I ask again, what MORE control do the WRU want? What control do they want that they couldn't get with a new PA?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20836386

Budgets, marketing, staffing and player recruitment.

Basically - absolutely everything.

by VinceWLB Mon 03 Feb 2014, 10:53 am

There was a huuuge applause when Warburton came on on saturday, make of that what you want...

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 03 Feb 2014, 10:58 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I've seen a lot of disappointment, but no personal abuse of Sam at all. He's said himself that he only had two negative tweets, something like that. Derwyn Jones has confused anger at the deal with abuse of the man who signed it.

It's funny that there isn't a peep from the media when Rhys Priestland genuinely does get abuse just for being selected ahead of Dan Biggar.

It's not funny, Lucky, it's thoroughly depressing that there's any abuse associated with our game, surely? Whether its at Davies over the BOD/Gatland nonsense, Rolland over that RC, Warburton over his cc, or Priestland for having the temerity to get selected ahead of someone else, it's all sh1te. And it's not just Welsh fans, there are numpties in every country

by quinsforever Mon 03 Feb 2014, 1:12 pm

very true ASBO, but i suspect that the numpties were always there, but with Twitter they have been given a voice

by HammerofThunor Mon 03 Feb 2014, 1:23 pm

Well Cohen said he got death threats after the whole "Shane who?" nonsense. So it's not new. There's always been idiots and there will always be idiots. It's just these idiots are more visible now due to social media. In someways it's good, they can be found and eliminated. And in someways it's bad, we actually know they exist.

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 03 Feb 2014, 1:27 pm

Asbo, I think he meant that the press were very quick to mention that there was abuse about the centralised contract, however the press have not said a single thing about Priestland getting abused regularly. It is almost like the press accept that Rhys gets stick/abuse, as part and parcel of being involved in the national game, but that when the golden boy got the same sort of stick that the press were so quick to remark upon it.

by Stone Motif Wed 05 Feb 2014, 8:12 am

Roger full of BS, according to the O's:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03tgwjh/Radio_Wales_Sport_04_02_2014/

Excellent comments (about 1.30 in). Rog's position untenable. Wonder if this will make the BBC main page?

by Stone Motif Wed 05 Feb 2014, 9:12 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26043278

Blinkin' heck, Pravda have gone well off-message on this one.

by XR Wed 05 Feb 2014, 9:19 am

Roger Lewis...lying?

Never!

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 05 Feb 2014, 9:24 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26043278 wrote:Davies said of Lewis's viewpoint: "He was saying that firstly the regions are open to the idea of expanding national contracts - that's untrue; both sides planned to make more deals - that's untrue; we have a plan on the table that we are discussing - that's untrue; the regions have engaged with that plan - it's untrue; WRU has been working on the plan for several months - that's untrue; the regions originally contacted the union to contract six players in Wales - that's untrue.

"In fact there's no relationship with the regions and the regions have been consistent in their view - there is no system to support central contracts in Wales."

The WRU has been asked to respond to Davies' statements.

Davies says the WRU has not debated the issue of central contracts with the regions, whose umbrella body is Regional Rugby Wales (RRW).

"It's just something that has been put on the table by Mr Lewis and it's not been debated as to whether or not it's good for Wales [or] bad for Wales," Davies told BBC Radio Wales.

He added: "There's no proof that the players will stay in Wales.

"It's got to be part of an overall plan. We employ 400-500 professional people.

"To employ one or two [on central contracts] is not going to build the base for a professional sport in Wales; it's not going to do it.

"You have to have a whole plan, not just a plan that grabs headlines and says that certain marquee players are staying in Wales.

"We've got one player so far [Wales captain Sam Warburton, who has signed a central contract].

"Fine, good luck to him. But it needs hundreds of players."

Seems that Mr Lewis has been making comments on behalf of people and it is coming back to bite him in the bum.

by quinsforever Wed 05 Feb 2014, 9:29 am

surely he's got to go, no?

i cannot envisage how welsh rugby can move past this without a clearing of the decks of those who are completely mistrusted. on both sides.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 05 Feb 2014, 9:38 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26043278 wrote:Davies said of Lewis's viewpoint: "He was saying that firstly the regions are open to the idea of expanding national contracts - that's untrue; both sides planned to make more deals - that's untrue; we have a plan on the table that we are discussing - that's untrue; the regions have engaged with that plan - it's untrue; WRU has been working on the plan for several months - that's untrue; the regions originally contacted the union to contract six players in Wales - that's untrue.

"In fact there's no relationship with the regions and the regions have been consistent in their view - there is no system to support central contracts in Wales."

The WRU has been asked to respond to Davies' statements.

Davies says the WRU has not debated the issue of central contracts with the regions, whose umbrella body is Regional Rugby Wales (RRW).

"It's just something that has been put on the table by Mr Lewis and it's not been debated as to whether or not it's good for Wales [or] bad for Wales," Davies told BBC Radio Wales.

He added: "There's no proof that the players will stay in Wales.

"It's got to be part of an overall plan. We employ 400-500 professional people.

"To employ one or two [on central contracts] is not going to build the base for a professional sport in Wales; it's not going to do it.

"You have to have a whole plan, not just a plan that grabs headlines and says that certain marquee players are staying in Wales.

"We've got one player so far [Wales captain Sam Warburton, who has signed a central contract].

"Fine, good luck to him. But it needs hundreds of players."

Seems that Mr Lewis has been making comments on behalf of people and it is coming back to bite him in the bum.

Hundreds of players on central contracts?! I think Davies has lost the plot - someone call the white van boyz, quick

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 05 Feb 2014, 9:47 am

ASBO, I agree that 1000s on central contracts seems far fetched, but going by the Beeb article with Mr. Lewis

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26025904 wrote:Lewis revealed that the roll-out of national contracts may eventually include academy and Wales Sevens players, not just the elite stars in the Test side.

So I guess 30-40 National Squad members, 30 Under 20s Squad members, 40-80 Academy players (spread across four regions), and the Sevens Squad too.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 05 Feb 2014, 11:10 am

What a disgusting liar Roger Lewis is.

His position was untenable some months ago.

Just go Roger. "For the good of the game in Wales".

by Cardiff Dave Wed 05 Feb 2014, 11:43 am

Stone Motif wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26043278

Blinkin' heck, Pravda have gone well off-message on this one.

Crumbs! Is it in the Fail too?

by Cardiff Dave Wed 05 Feb 2014, 1:50 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26043278

Blinkin' heck, Pravda have gone well off-message on this one.

Crumbs! Is it in the Fail too?

It is now although I can't see the following quote in the Failed version;

"Davies said of Lewis's viewpoint: "He was saying that firstly the regions are open to the idea of expanding national contracts - that's untrue; both sides planned to make more deals - that's untrue; we have a plan on the table that we are discussing - that's untrue; the regions have engaged with that plan - it's untrue; WRU has been working on the plan for several months - that's untrue; the regions originally contacted the union to contract six players in Wales - that's untrue."

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-rugby-war-latest-ospreys-6674732

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