Ireland vs Wales, 8th February 2014

First topic message reminder :

IRELAND: Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster); Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster), Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster), Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster), Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster); Jonathan Sexton (Racing Metro 92), Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster); Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster), Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster), Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster), Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster), Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) (capt), Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster), Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster), Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster).

Replacements: Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster), Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster), Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster), Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster), Tommy O'Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster), Isaac Boss (Terenure College/Leinster), Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster), Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster).

WALES: Leigh Halfpenny (Cardiff Blues); Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Jamie Roberts (Racing Metro 92), George North (Northampton Saints); Rhys Priestland (Scarlets), Mike Phillips (Racing Metro 92); Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), Richard Hibbard (Ospreys), Adam Jones (Ospreys), Andrew Coombs (Newport Gwent Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Dan Lydiate (Racing Metro 92), Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues) (capt), Toby Faletau (Newport Gwent Dragons).

Replacements: Ken Owens (Scarlets), Paul James (Bath), Rhodri Jones (Scarlets), Jake Ball (Scarlets), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Rhys Webb (Ospreys), James Hook (Perpignan), Liam Williams (Scarlets).

Referee: Wayne Barnes (England)
Assistant Referees: Glen Jackson (New Zealand), JP Doyle (England)
Television Match Official: Graham Hughes (England)

   

just goes to show griff, you cant believe what the experts say.  but of course they have the freedom to say anything without a come back and to a vast audience that doesn't pay as much attention to the game as they do to the chit chat and so called expert opinion after the game.

I thought the comment on the lineout was wrong , hence my overuse of exclamation marks. I am also baffled as to why biggar has been totally excluded, not only from the team but from the conversations on tv and also in the press. you wont find one word in the welsh press calling for biggar to be given a game. after his performance in the last 6ns , especially against England, he must wonder what he has to do to get in the 22.

Well done Ireland...! A fantastic performance that blew us off the park. You look in as fine a fettle as we look tarnished and dull...

I hope we can give our lads a good kick up the backside and give you and France a run for the title. Unfirtunately for us, we now have to hope you slip up.

I don't see that happening. Could be a great year to be green...

gavstar wrote:just goes to show griff, you cant believe what the experts say.  but of course they have the freedom to say anything without a come back and to a vast audience that doesn't pay as much attention to the game as they do to the chit chat and so called expert opinion after the game.

I thought the comment on the lineout was wrong , hence my overuse of exclamation marks. I am also baffled as to why biggar has been totally excluded, not only from the team but from the conversations on tv and also in the press. you wont find one word in the welsh press calling for biggar to be given a game.  after his performance in the last 6ns , especially against England, he must wonder what he has to do to get in the 22.

Gavstar, I'd have Biggar starting every day. He's the best Welsh 10 in the Pro12/HC and that is enough for me. We simply can't elevate a player who is second best (or possibly 3rd) in the club game over players who are playing better. Not only does it send a bad message it's also likely to turn out bad - why would a player not long back from injury and not setting the world on fire in the Pro12 suddenly be a game winner at international level, more so than someone playing better than him for his club? It's not logical!

So Dan Biggar for me. And I used to be his biggest critic, back when he came on the scene as a gobby little sh*te. But I think he's matured into a very solid 10. I prefer his accuracy to Priestland's. I also don't think he lacks variety - he's good at mixing it up. However, maybe Gatland doesn't like that as it's not in the script???

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:

international197 wrote:I don't understand why Rhodri Jones' try wasn't awarded in the 67th minute (about 2 minutes and 35 seconds into this video [linked below]).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26099073

Double movement. Clearly made two attempts to place the ball and wasn't due to momentum therefore a penalty offence!

I also thought it was a try (clutching at straws time). Am I correct that "double movement" is in fact a rugby league offence not rugby union? My understanding is that the tackled player has to pass, release or place the ball immediately after coming to ground. Young Rhodri chose to place the ball on the try line. I seem to recall Barnes saying that he was disallowing the try for making two attempts to place the ball, but the replay only showed one.

There was a very similar incident in Saturday's Munster v Cardiff game (another big win for the Irish). A Munster forward was tackled short of the line, he then reached out to place the ball on the line. The ref went to the TMO who ruled for a try, saying he was allowed to place the ball after the tackle.

Now don't get me wrong, Ireland were by far the better side on Saturday, particularly at forward, but would 19 : 10 with 15 minutes to go have been interesting?

Double movement is definitely an offence in rugby union.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Double movement is definitely an offence in rugby union.

IRB Laws of Rugby

15.5 (g) If a player is tackled near the goal line, that player may immediately reach out and ground the ball on or over the goal line to score a try or make a touch down.

No mention anywhere of double movement?

Any Refs out there who may actually know the answer to this?

The term itself isn't mentioned, but the referee will call a "double movement" to signify when a player has been tackled on the try line, hasn't been able to ground the ball and instead of releasing, he continues to try and reach for the try line.  It is the same as a player not releasing the ball after a tackle, if he delays too long then he will be penalised.

Not a ref but can shed some light on the matter.

You are allowed to place the ball after a tackle, but you are not allowed to move forward after being tackled unless you are able to (legally) regain your feet.

It was a pretty marginal call, and one that you may see not given on a lot of occasions because of it. But I think Barnes gives it because he's pushing off his knees instead of just placing the ball. He had to drive himself forward a fraction because he was agonisingly short. You can see he pushes off his knees- you can't do that. You can only reach out an place the ball.

https://youtu.be/tHOHNDbdz8Y?t=3m34s

I think the try you mean was CJ Standers try at the death for Munster? It's a different scenario because you can see he's on the ground and he reaches out to place- he doesn't move himself forward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4jSGZ6LPWE

Laws of Rugby wrote:15.5

(a)
A tackled player must not lie on, over, or near the ball to prevent opponents from gaining possession of it, and must try to make the ball available immediately so that play can continue.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(b)
A tackled player must immediately pass the ball or release it. That player must also get up or move away from it at once.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(c)
A tackled player may release the ball by putting it on the ground in any direction, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(d)
A tackled player may release the ball by pushing it along the ground in any direction except forward, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(e)
If opposition players who are on their feet attempt to play the ball, the tackled player must release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(f)
If a tackled player’s momentum carries the player into the in-goal, the player can score a try or make a touch down.

(g)
If a player is tackled near the goal line, that player may immediately reach out and ground the ball on or over the goal line to score a try or make a touch down.

So the reason for the penalty is that his moving forward despite being held in the tackle, and he's holding onto the ball despite being on the ground if I understand it correctly. Whereas Stander can reach forward and place the ball, Rhodri Jones is not able to place the ball forward without moving forward himself and you must be on your feet to move forward; see Nigel Owens pinging Nick Williams.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzCHlq6t7cg

The disallowed try is actually pretty similar to that penalty. Rhodri Jones isn't on his feet and he's trying to move forward. There was an Irish player in the way stopping him from placing the ball. Correct decision.

Double movement
      An illegal movement in the attempt to score a try. An attacking player whose momentum does not allow the ball to reach the try-line or in-goal after their ball-carrying arm touches the ground may not reach out to score if a defender is in contact with them; this is disallowed by interpretation as a "double movement".

Great explanation Notch.

Aren't the Laws of our beautiful game complicated!

Sin é wrote:
Double movement
      An illegal movement in the attempt to score a try. An attacking player whose momentum does not allow the ball to reach the try-line or in-goal after their ball-carrying arm touches the ground may not reach out to score if a defender is in contact with them; this is disallowed by interpretation as a "double movement".

I believe that you are quoting a Rugby league Rule not Rugby Union Law. But see Notch explanation above.

Double movement isn't actually something thats in the laws, its a term used in commentary, but it makes sense.

CJ Stander reaches out to place the ball- try. One movement after the tackle. Rhodri Jones pushes off his knees to move himself forward and reaches out to place the ball- penalty against him. Two movements after the tackle.

But it's not the number of movements thats the issue, if I understand the laws correctly- trying to worm your way forward if you're brought to the ground and held is always illegal. Basically being allowed to place the ball forward if you are near the goal line is an exception to the general principle that once you're tackled you must immediately either release the ball or place it backwards.

Sin, whats your source for the double movement definition?

Rhodri Jones is so unlucky. There's not a tight head prop in the world who wouldn't do what he did!   

I doubt if you have to place the ball backwards specifically it's just that that is the best way to retain possession. So long as you don't knock it on I suppose.

Double movement is an offence in the same way hinging in the scrum is. They're colloquial terms for offences. Double movement is not releasing 'immediately' (as in many rugby laws the 'immediately' is a matter of opinion).

As already stated.

.

Yes, no issues with the disallowed try here. He wasn't close enough reach out and place it down on the line (which would have been legal) so he tried to crawl forward to make himself closer, which meant he had 2 bites of the cherry and was thus not placing it immediately. But yeah, he's a prop so it was a 50m dash that was disallowed in his eyes I expect!

It was Barnes reefing, always has to make his mark, it's like playing the opposition and the ref at the same time.

He'd yellow card you for a double bowel movement.

MrsP wrote:I doubt if you have to place the ball backwards specifically it's just that that is the best way to retain possession. So long as you don't knock it on I suppose.

If you place the ball forwards and release it, then thats a knock-on right?

Well, only if the ball moves forward after you release it I would have thought.

I dunno why we're debating it, just realised the answer is in one of my previous posts;

Law 15.5 wrote:(c)
A tackled player may release the ball by putting it on the ground in any direction, provided this is done immediately.

(d)
A tackled player may release the ball by pushing it along the ground in any direction except forward, provided this is done immediately.

  

Notch wrote:
But it's not the number of movements thats the issue, if I understand the laws correctly- trying to worm your way forward if you're brought to the ground and held is always illegal.

Not strictly correct. A player can reach out and place the ball over either goalline if its done immediately and within reach of where they are tackled.

If he has to make an additional movement to score the he hasn't immediately realised the ball. The term double movement is just s a phrase to say that you've made an additional movement before releasing or scoring which is illegal.

The confusion these days is that the tackler has to release immediately which can lead to a grey area were the tackled player isn't technically held and may feel they can move again like the one against Nick Williams last Friday. There is an element of interpretation by the referee but once he determines the tackle complete the tackler must release and the ball carrier must release the ball and allow the contest at the breakdown.

I can't understand any debate about the welsh penalty because the player actually moves twice after being tackled before reaching the try line,

Scratch wrote:It was Barnes reefing, always has to make his mark, it's like playing the opposition and the ref at the same time.

He'd yellow card you for a double bowel movement.

Well he might if you did that on the pitch...

gavstar wrote:just goes to show griff, you cant believe what the experts say.  but of course they have the freedom to say anything without a come back and to a vast audience that doesn't pay as much attention to the game as they do to the chit chat and so called expert opinion after the game.

I thought the comment on the lineout was wrong , hence my overuse of exclamation marks. I am also baffled as to why biggar has been totally excluded, not only from the team but from the conversations on tv and also in the press. you wont find one word in the welsh press calling for biggar to be given a game.  after his performance in the last 6ns , especially against England, he must wonder what he has to do to get in the 22.

How about a 24 man squad

Notch wrote:Not a ref but can shed some light on the matter.

You are allowed to place the ball after a tackle, but you are not allowed to move forward after being tackled unless you are able to (legally) regain your feet.

It was a pretty marginal call, and one that you may see not given on a lot of occasions because of it. But I think Barnes gives it because he's pushing off his knees instead of just placing the ball. He had to drive himself forward a fraction because he was agonisingly short. You can see he pushes off his knees- you can't do that. You can only reach out an place the ball.

https://youtu.be/tHOHNDbdz8Y?t=3m34s

I think the try you mean was CJ Standers try at the death for Munster? It's a different scenario because you can see he's on the ground and he reaches out to place- he doesn't move himself forward.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4jSGZ6LPWE

Laws of Rugby wrote:15.5

(a)
A tackled player must not lie on, over, or near the ball to prevent opponents from gaining possession of it, and must try to make the ball available immediately so that play can continue.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(b)
A tackled player must immediately pass the ball or release it. That player must also get up or move away from it at once.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(c)
A tackled player may release the ball by putting it on the ground in any direction, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(d)
A tackled player may release the ball by pushing it along the ground in any direction except forward, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(e)
If opposition players who are on their feet attempt to play the ball, the tackled player must release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(f)
If a tackled player’s momentum carries the player into the in-goal, the player can score a try or make a touch down.

(g)
If a player is tackled near the goal line, that player may immediately reach out and ground the ball on or over the goal line to score a try or make a touch down.

So the reason for the penalty is that his moving forward despite being held in the tackle, and he's holding onto the ball despite being on the ground if I understand it correctly. Whereas Stander can reach forward and place the ball, Rhodri Jones is not able to place the ball forward without moving forward himself and you must be on your feet to move forward; see Nigel Owens pinging Nick Williams.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzCHlq6t7cg

The disallowed try is actually pretty similar to that penalty. Rhodri Jones isn't on his feet and he's trying to move forward. There was an Irish player in the way stopping him from placing the ball. Correct decision.

If the ball carrier is brought to ground and the ball touches the ground ie is grounded before the line, and he then reaches over WITHOUT MOVING
to ground the ball over the line, is THAT a try.

Dontheman wrote:If the ball carrier is brought to ground and the ball touches the ground ie is grounded before the line, and he then reaches over WITHOUT MOVING
to ground the ball over the line, is THAT a try.

Correct but if you have to make an additional movement - i.e. raise yourself up to reach the line then that is a penalty to the defending team. Likewise the placement has to be immediate.

In all seriousness and in all truth, we've all looked at rugby long enough to know the non-try by Wales last weekend has often been given.

That's about all I can say on the matter.  They were unlucky that they came up against an exacting ref (so have we come up against him when he'd been exacting but wrong ) - the scoreboard might have been better.  
I don't think they'd have pushed Ireland all the way back to gaining a victory against us, but the scoreboard would have been better looking.

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:
But it's not the number of movements thats the issue, if I understand the laws correctly- trying to worm your way forward if you're brought to the ground and held is always illegal.

Not strictly correct. A player can reach out and place the ball over either goalline if its done immediately and within reach of where they are tackled.

Sorry, but it is strictly correct. Placing the ball has nothing to do with what I'm referring to. I'm referring to players trying to move forward after being brought to ground and held. When you place the ball you don't move yourself forward- thats the offence. You are allowed to place the ball, you are not allowed to try and squeeze a few extra inches by driving yourself forward when off your feet. It's a penalty to try and continue to move forward after being held in the tackle and/or to try and move forward when you are off your feet.

rodders wrote:The confusion these days is that the tackler has to release immediately which can lead to a grey area were the tackled player isn't technically held and may feel they can move again like the one against Nick Williams last Friday.

That was pretty straightforward. He wasn't on his feet so it was a penalty. If you're not held, you can get back onto your feet and play on. You have to get up though!

Yes but that wasn't what the penalty was for. That's the bit you don't seem to understand. It was specifically for attempting to place the ball, through an additional movement to reach the line after the tackle was completed.

rodders wrote:Yes but that wasn't what the penalty was for. That's the bit you don't seem to understand. It was specifically for attempting to place the ball, through an additional movement to reach the line after the tackle was completed.

Precisely. Because of the additional movement when he was on the ground.

When I made that point "trying to worm your way forward if you're brought to the ground and held is always illegal" I was not referring to the Rhodri Jones try specifically but making a general point.

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:Yes but that wasn't what the penalty was for. That's the bit you don't seem to understand. It was specifically for attempting to place the ball, through an additional movement to reach the line after the tackle was completed.

Precisely. Because of the additional movement when he was on the ground.

When I made that point "trying to worm your way forward if you're brought to the ground and held is always illegal" I was not referring to the Rhodri Jones try specifically but making a general point.

Yes but what I'm saying is that the rules in and around the goal line are different to those in general play.

If the goal line is in reach you can immediately stretch out to score - example being Horgan's against England a few years ago - the tackle was effected but because Horgan immediately stretched out it is legal. If there is deemed to be a delay, or Horgan propels himself further forward then its a double movement and illegal. That's what happened on Saturday.

Generally speaking if the ball is on the ground and the player raises it again to reach the line its nearly always deemed illegal because the momentum has stopped,

Also players frequently crawl or roll forward in general play, after being tackled, and it won't be penalised - Rory Best is the master at it

It's quite bizarre reading two Irish fans arguing over a Welsh try that wasn't given against their team!

  

  

But it wasn't a try though was it?

Griff wrote:It's quite bizarre reading two Irish fans arguing over a Welsh try that wasn't given against their team!

  

  

Well that might be because of the lack of Welsh men around the place this week.  We have to give both sides of the post-match inquisition.

rodders wrote:But it wasn't a try though was it?

No, as I and a number of Welsh fans have posted a number of times, IT WASN'T A TRY!!!

I think only one Welsh fan has tried to argue for it, and about 3 Irish posters have said that Wales were unlucky as it could have been given!

Griff wrote:

rodders wrote:But it wasn't a try though was it?

No, as I and a number of Welsh fans have posted a number of times, IT WASN'T A TRY!!!

I think only one Welsh fan has tried to argue for it, and about 3 Irish posters have said that Wales were unlucky as it could have been given!

So what we are basically saying is that statistically speaking Welsh fans understand the rules and the Irish fans don't?

That's a big turn around from the Ferris and Warb tip tackle incidents -well done you guys ...

I thought it was harsh!

seen them given.

rodders wrote:

Griff wrote:

rodders wrote:But it wasn't a try though was it?

No, as I and a number of Welsh fans have posted a number of times, IT WASN'T A TRY!!!

I think only one Welsh fan has tried to argue for it, and about 3 Irish posters have said that Wales were unlucky as it could have been given!

So what we are basically saying is that statistically speaking Welsh fans understand the rules and the Irish fans don't?

That's a big turn around from the Ferris and Warb tip tackle incidents  -well done you guys ...

I've been around these boards long enough to know that, what starts as two Irish fans debating the Welsh try not being given, will all of a sudden morph into accusations that the Welsh are blaming the ref! It just takes one 'noob' to not know the nationality of the posters arguing, or not read all of the thread, and suddenly the poo will start flying!

So I blame you Irish for the sh*t storm that is round the corner!!!

If nobody was touching him I would have thought it would be given, that happens often enough, but he definitely made the movement and he was definitely in contact with irish tacklers. Would have been lucky to get it to be honest. It wasnt decisive anyway

Wales were still beaten by then anyway, even if it was given!

first time ive posted since the game, thoughts are as follows:

Double movement was 100% corect and the try should not have been given.

Ireland beat wales at the breakdown completely, the welsh backrow didnt fire well at all, the Irish back row and props were excellant here.

I thought Wayne Barnes allowed the Irish to kill the ball and was whistlehappy when the welsh tried the same thing (I think this helped the Irish dominance at the breakdown but wasn't a deciding factor).

The welsh again made silly errors, one after the other, going into contact on their own, support play was slow to the rucks, handling was sloppy, lineouts an absolute shambles and the kick chase didnt exist.

The Irish had their tatics spot on, breakown work excellent, capitalised on Wales sloppy play, kicked the leather of the ball (but the kicking game was excellent), were strong in contact and did all the basics very, VERY well. Thats all it took.

For Wales moving on:

I'd drop Adam Jones/Coombes/Lydiate/Phillips.

My side for France would be:

1. Jenkins
2. Hibbard
3. Samson Lee
4. AW Jones
5. Jake Ball
6. Warburton (hes going to play)
7. Tipuric
8. Faletau
9. Rhodri Williams
10. Biggar
11. North
12. Roberts
13. JD2 (early I know, had Williams not been injured it would have been Williams/JD2)
14. Cuthbert
15. Halfpenny

16. Paul James
17. Ken Owens
18. Adam Jones
19. Charteris
20. Coombes
21. Rhys Webb
22. Priestland
23. Byrne

The Irish, bless them, have been very gracious in victory actually.  So so quiet.  No "Take that Gats!!!" out of them at all - actually straight on and into the next game against England.

I usually hate the Irish this time of year.  But seriously, I'm learning to love them now.  Good luck with the rest of the Championship lads, and I hope you can pull off the Slam.   

Comfort wrote:first time ive posted since the game, thoughts are as follows:

Double movement was 100% corect and the try should not have been given.

Ireland beat wales at the breakdown completely, the welsh backrow didnt fire well at all, the Irish back row and props were excellant here.

I thought Wayne Barnes allowed the Irish to kill the ball and was whistlehappy when the welsh tried the same thing (I think this helped the Irish dominance at the breakdown but wasn't a deciding factor).

The welsh again made silly errors, one after the other, going into contact on their own, support play was slow to the rucks, handling was sloppy, lineouts an absolute shambles and the kick chase didnt exist.

The Irish had their tatics spot on, breakown work excellent, capitalised on Wales sloppy play, kicked the leather of the ball (but the kicking game was excellent), were strong in contact and did all the basics very, VERY well. Thats all it took.

For Wales moving on:

I'd drop Adam Jones/Coombes/Lydiate/Phillips.

My side for France would be:

1. Jenkins
2. Hibbard
3. Samson Lee
4. AW Jones
5. Jake Ball
6. Warburton (hes going to play)
7. Tipuric
8. Faletau
9. Rhodri Williams
10. Biggar
11. North
12. Roberts
13. JD2 (early I know, had Williams not been injured it would have been Williams/JD2)
14. Cuthbert
15. Halfpenny

16. Paul James
17. Ken Owens
18. Adam Jones
19. Charteris
20. Coombes
21. Rhys Webb
22. Priestland
23. Byrne

You cannot be serious about Byrne. Why have cover for 1/2p and none for centre especially as that's where the injuries have been. Surely Hook. Byrne isn't on the radar is he?

If any prop is to be dropped it should be Jenkins