England vs Ireland

First topic message reminder :

Could be game of the six nations what do you think?

the-goon wrote:Some very confident England fans on here...

Some very confident Ireland ones too.

Almsot as if its a close call.


SHOCK HORROR

As I have said before, had this fixture been in Ireland then I would be confident but as its in Twickers I would have to say England are favourites and should get the win.

Ireland will definitely win this one. We've only been able to beat them when their coach had lost the plot (and maybe the players lost faith with the coach). So England have no chance

HammerofThunor wrote:Ireland will definitely win this one. We've only been able to beat them when their coach had lost the plot (and maybe the players lost faith with the coach). So England have no chance

Nice Hammer...you have two weeks of that pretending to endure

I'm smarter. I'll only start bigging up Invincible England into the second week. It's less exhausting

Hmm Ok how about we agree that Wales wont lose this game

Well I think it has to be Ireland hands down in my view. yes it's a home match to England but Ireland have been not far from unbeatable in their first two games.
England haven;t shown anything to proves why they would be considered favorite in this game. Yes they one by a pretty large margin yesterday but it could and should have been bigger, they haven't been as clinical as Ireland.
Ireland will have the advantage at scrum time with Healey against a pretty weak Cole atm and their pack will give them the platform they need. It's just whether Ross decides to keep the scrum up or not.
England have been great at the breakdown in the past but haven't; be at their best their in the first two games and Ireland have been amazing. It might be close but Ireland are definitely favorites to win by a 10 point margin I think.
God help us against the french as well, they will be looking to kick on and make it a showdown between them and Ireland.

That's from a neutral perspective as well

Cannot wait for this. England handled Ireland pretty comfortably the past two seasons including a man-shaming in Twickenham in 2012 so I expect emotions will be running pretty high in the Irish camp for this one.

The England tight 5 is very strong as usual. The Irish tight 5 is in form but will need to maintain those standards to live with them. I'd give England the slight edge in the scrum and their startgin lineout is more reliable. However if Toner starts and Best throws well Ireland could cause problems. Backrow - I think Ireland have the edge.

Halfbacks - Sexton > Farrell but Care is a bigger threat than Murray with ball in hand and Murray's delivery has been a bit slow in the last two games (still kicking reasonably well though). Back 5 - I don't know a huge amount about England's new men but I haven't seen anything yet to suggest they will carve Ireland open. I wouldn't mind seeing Marshall come back in at centre to counter Burrells size though.

This could come down to the benches and going on those on show in round 2, I think Ireland's is stronger overall due to a couple of out of form players in the England 16-23. I know there are injuries on both sides but what do the English fans think of their bench options, particularly the backs? I'm assuming if Farrell gets hurt the plan is 36 to flyhalf?

Artful_Dodger wrote:All I'm going to say it that I have a lot of faith in Joe Schmidt's game plan and that I think for England to beat us I think they will have to put in something very special in every area of the pitch.  I'm really starting to see Schmidt as a strategic and tactical genius.  

only if ireland also do the same. as most irish posters and punters have been telling me, they never know whether it's the team that played the ABs that is going to show up, or the one against wales in the 2nd half in 2013.

if sexton has a bad game ireland will lose. if he has a good game then it will be close. it's that simple.

Jhamer25 wrote:Well I think it has to be Ireland hands down in my view. yes it's a home match to England but Ireland have been not far from unbeatable in their first two games.
England haven;t shown anything to proves why they would be considered favorite in this game. Yes they one by a pretty large margin yesterday but it could and should have been bigger, they haven't been as clinical as Ireland.
Ireland will have the advantage at scrum time with Healey against a pretty weak Cole atm and their pack will give them the platform they need. It's just whether Ross decides to keep the scrum up or not.
England have been great at the breakdown in the past but haven't; be at their best their in the first two games and Ireland have been amazing. It might be close but Ireland are definitely favorites to win by a 10 point margin I think.
God help us against the french as well, they will be looking to kick on and make it a showdown between them and Ireland.

That's from a neutral perspective as well

neutral?

quinsforever wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:All I'm going to say it that I have a lot of faith in Joe Schmidt's game plan and that I think for England to beat us I think they will have to put in something very special in every area of the pitch.  I'm really starting to see Schmidt as a strategic and tactical genius.  

only if ireland also do the same. as most irish posters and punters have been telling me, they never know whether it's the team that played the ABs that is going to show up, or the one against wales in the 2nd half in 2013.

if sexton has a bad game ireland will lose. if he has a good game then it will be close. it's that simple.

2 games, against a poor scotland, and an equally poor wales, does not conclusive proof of genius make.

beat both england and france and it might be worth discussing.

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Ireland will definitely win this one. We've only been able to beat them when their coach had lost the plot (and maybe the players lost faith with the coach). So England have no chance

Nice Hammer...you have two weeks of that pretending to endure

I'm smarter.  I'll only start bigging up Invincible England into the second week.  It's less exhausting

To be honest I do think Ireland will win but I expect it to be close. Much like I thought Wales v Ireland would be close. Don't forget my formative years of rugby were 2005, 2006 and 2007.

quinsforever wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:All I'm going to say it that I have a lot of faith in Joe Schmidt's game plan and that I think for England to beat us I think they will have to put in something very special in every area of the pitch.  I'm really starting to see Schmidt as a strategic and tactical genius.  

only if ireland also do the same. as most irish posters and punters have been telling me, they never know whether it's the team that played the ABs that is going to show up, or the one against wales in the 2nd half in 2013.

if sexton has a bad game ireland will lose. if he has a good game then it will be close. it's that simple.

If Ireland had Jackson..they still have the potential to win.  I think most Irish people would say that.  We prioritise Sexton of course but the system is becoming more important than the player.  

That's the current experiment, quins - and it's exactly why Kidney walked and Schmidt was called in.  Is Lancaster's England the same as Johnson's?  Well, some might say it is!  No different.  But they'd be the snakes in the grass that are never satisfied.  Most English followers would say Lancaster coaches differently and seems to have a much more potent and disciplined set-up.

We now have a new coach too   Many outsiders seem to still overlook that fact.  And his role now is to get us past the "Which Ireland will turn up?" era we've endured for the last few years.  Mostly the shoddy and easily beatable Ireland turned up during those years, Schmidt has been given the responsibility to change that.

So far so good.  We're still at a very early stage - Lancaster and all other coaches have a head start on him - but the team that gave in to Wales in that second half (yet still had more than enough on Wales to win from the first half! ) that team wasn't coached by Schmidt.

quinsforever wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:All I'm going to say it that I have a lot of faith in Joe Schmidt's game plan and that I think for England to beat us I think they will have to put in something very special in every area of the pitch.  I'm really starting to see Schmidt as a strategic and tactical genius.  

only if ireland also do the same. as most irish posters and punters have been telling me, they never know whether it's the team that played the ABs that is going to show up, or the one against wales in the 2nd half in 2013.

if sexton has a bad game ireland will lose. if he has a good game then it will be close. it's that simple.

2 games, against a poor scotland, and an equally poor wales, does not conclusive proof of genius make.

beat both england and france and it might be worth discussing.

He's not a genius...just a very good coach.

This game will probably all come down to the maul and the breakdown. Neither side has a dominant scrum at the moment and both have secure lineouts. I think England have enough big carriers to do serious damage if we can keep O'Mahony etc away from the ball at ruck time, and a strong enough defence to hold Ireland out if we can stop their driven lineouts. I'm not sure that Ireland's attack in phase play is nearly as strong without Bowe'Brien, though it could just be that neither Scotland or Wales have forced it out of them yet.

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:All I'm going to say it that I have a lot of faith in Joe Schmidt's game plan and that I think for England to beat us I think they will have to put in something very special in every area of the pitch.  I'm really starting to see Schmidt as a strategic and tactical genius.  

only if ireland also do the same. as most irish posters and punters have been telling me, they never know whether it's the team that played the ABs that is going to show up, or the one against wales in the 2nd half in 2013.

if sexton has a bad game ireland will lose. if he has a good game then it will be close. it's that simple.

2 games, against a poor scotland, and an equally poor wales, does not conclusive proof of genius make.

beat both england and france and it might be worth discussing.

He's not a genius...just a very good coach.  

So your players arent that great then?

[

I don't know how you work out that conclusion from what I said.  Do ever so much explain the reasoning there Peter

Artful_Dodger wrote:All I'm going to say it that I have a lot of faith in Joe Schmidt's game plan and that I think for England to beat us I think they will have to put in something very special in every area of the pitch.  I'm really starting to see Schmidt as a strategic and tactical genius.  

And that's   exactly what will win it for us. He is light years ahead of the rest in the NH. As is Sexton at 10. The two main reasons why we will beat England. And beat them well.

Believe.

quinsforever wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:Well I think it has to be Ireland hands down in my view. yes it's a home match to England but Ireland have been not far from unbeatable in their first two games.
England haven;t shown anything to proves why they would be considered favorite in this game. Yes they one by a pretty large margin yesterday but it could and should have been bigger, they haven't been as clinical as Ireland.
Ireland will have the advantage at scrum time with Healey against a pretty weak Cole atm and their pack will give them the platform they need. It's just whether Ross decides to keep the scrum up or not.
England have been great at the breakdown in the past but haven't; be at their best their in the first two games and Ireland have been amazing. It might be close but Ireland are definitely favorites to win by a 10 point margin I think.
God help us against the french as well, they will be looking to kick on and make it a showdown between them and Ireland.

That's from a neutral perspective as well

neutral?

Hmmm. Methinks Mr Hamer might be overegging Ireland's pudding to make yesterday's defeat a bit more palatable.

I don't think Ireland have been 'not far from unbeatable' or 'amazing'. Yet.

Same with England.

Both sides will find out where they are in two weeks.

england's gameplan is evolving. and now has genuine threats at 11,13,14,15, especially in open play. so i think schmidt's "gameplan" will only carry ireland so far against england. on-field adaptability will be key.

wales only have 1 gameplan, and ireland neutralised it perfectly. england have nothing like the same level of predictability.

as england found at rwc 2007, if you rely too much on doing what the coaches tell you it can completely kill you as a side. there needs to be a balance. the real genius of a coach is in having a strategy that provides the best odds of a win, while encouraging a set of players who know when to ignore the strategy if the situation commands it.

i will be very pleased for ireland if schmidt turns out to be the latter, just please let the real evidence come after sat 22nd

gibbo, completely agree re sexton by the way.

sexton plus the worlds most organised lineout would probably be enough to get any team to top 3 in the rankings.

Jhamer25 wrote:Well I think it has to be Ireland hands down in my view. yes it's a home match to England but Ireland have been not far from unbeatable in their first two games.
England haven;t shown anything to proves why they would be considered favorite in this game.

I think the point is that, while Ireland have easily controlled both of their games so far, they haven't really had to show much beyond a dominant driving maul, kicking game and breakdown work to do it. They wont dominate those areas in every game - no-one ever does, particularly the maul - so if someone can stop them at source then they'll have to come up with something else. Of course they might very well do that, but it's not certain.

Cyril wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:Well I think it has to be Ireland hands down in my view. yes it's a home match to England but Ireland have been not far from unbeatable in their first two games.
England haven;t shown anything to proves why they would be considered favorite in this game. Yes they one by a pretty large margin yesterday but it could and should have been bigger, they haven't been as clinical as Ireland.
Ireland will have the advantage at scrum time with Healey against a pretty weak Cole atm and their pack will give them the platform they need. It's just whether Ross decides to keep the scrum up or not.
England have been great at the breakdown in the past but haven't; be at their best their in the first two games and Ireland have been amazing. It might be close but Ireland are definitely favorites to win by a 10 point margin I think.
God help us against the french as well, they will be looking to kick on and make it a showdown between them and Ireland.

That's from a neutral perspective as well

neutral?

Hmmm. Methinks Mr Hamer might be overegging Ireland's pudding to make yesterday's defeat a bit more palatable.

I don't think Ireland have been 'not far from unbeatable' or 'amazing'. Yet.

Same with England.

Both sides will find out where they are in two weeks.

No need to be childish now it's just my view guys. How would it make yesterdays defeat more palatable, if you read my posts I have had nothing but
I'm not edging for any team too win so my view is open an not biased at all. Nothing will take away form the fact we got stuffed will it now.
I'm not Irish or English so i'm neutral, we lost, we have been below standard but England haven't shown to be anything special and Ireland have been. If you can see a fault int heir previous two game then feel free to point them out.
My comment had nothing to do with our loss yesterday we lost i can accept that unlike some people in this site.

Time to get down to basics folks.... let's look at the down side of the meeting between Ireland and England.  The downside is naturally an Irish loss - the world of sport will mourn for a week

Seriously, so let's say the English use home comforts and a good solid team effort to kill off Ireland.  That's us down a game...with only France left with the potential to go the whole way.  They'll be facing Wales (and so they might be confident but not overly so.)  Wales will do a lot of soul searching in the interval and will be back in base.

So best case scenario for England (a victory) is not so bad a result for Ireland.  All that it means is that a few teams have caught up with us and then the potential game is on in the points scoring and victory getting table from there in.

Not bad at all to have something to fight for in the last two games and more importantly, points and tries to chase.  It would be a 'Release the Hounds!' kind of mood from all sides still in contention.  Good for the competition.

Ireland will win. Their all conquering regions have been crushing the measly English clubs all season, their players are giants compared to ours and their coach is the Einstein of rugby.

Simple, honest, hardworking Lancaster and his miss-fit bunch of English grafters just will not be able to compete with these god like beings.

Is that unconfident enough?

yappysnap wrote:Ireland will win. Their all conquering regions have been crushing the measly English clubs all season, their players are giants compared to ours and their coach is the Einstein of rugby.

Simple, honest, hardworking Lancaster and his miss-fit bunch of English grafters just will not be able to compete with these god like beings.

Is that unconfident enough?

It'll do- now kiss it (drops trousers).

Just kidding. It's a cliche, but it really is going to be 50/50. It will go right to the wire.

yappysnap wrote:Ireland will win. Their all conquering regions have been crushing the measly English clubs all season, their players are giants compared to ours and their coach is the Einstein of rugby.

Simple, honest, hardworking Lancaster and his miss-fit bunch of English grafters just will not be able to compete with these god like beings.

Is that unconfident enough?

I think that's a little over the top but pretty much right.

thomh wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:Well I think it has to be Ireland hands down in my view. yes it's a home match to England but Ireland have been not far from unbeatable in their first two games.
England haven;t shown anything to proves why they would be considered favorite in this game.

I think the point is that, while Ireland have easily controlled both of their games so far, they haven't really had to show much beyond a dominant driving maul, kicking game and breakdown work to do it. They wont dominate those areas in every game - no-one ever does, particularly the maul - so if someone can stop them at source then they'll have to come up with something else. Of course they might very well do that, but it's not certain.

Look Schmidt is a great coach and his skill to adapt his team to counter the strengths of others is brilliant, he proved that yesterday. England have a weak scrum there their maul isn't anything special either.
I'm not saying it's certain either but they have to be favorites on form.
Also what much more do they have to show beyond the list you described, all of these area's are key factors of the game. As you have said they have been dominant in factors. England don't have a 9/10 partnership like Sexton/Murray, Englands break down work was brilliant last Autumn but hasn't been as effective or impressing in the first two games. Ireland however have great balance in their back row now and have been amazing in this area.

Jhamer25 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:Well I think it has to be Ireland hands down in my view. yes it's a home match to England but Ireland have been not far from unbeatable in their first two games.
England haven;t shown anything to proves why they would be considered favorite in this game. Yes they one by a pretty large margin yesterday but it could and should have been bigger, they haven't been as clinical as Ireland.
Ireland will have the advantage at scrum time with Healey against a pretty weak Cole atm and their pack will give them the platform they need. It's just whether Ross decides to keep the scrum up or not.
England have been great at the breakdown in the past but haven't; be at their best their in the first two games and Ireland have been amazing. It might be close but Ireland are definitely favorites to win by a 10 point margin I think.
God help us against the french as well, they will be looking to kick on and make it a showdown between them and Ireland.

That's from a neutral perspective as well

neutral?

Hmmm. Methinks Mr Hamer might be overegging Ireland's pudding to make yesterday's defeat a bit more palatable.

I don't think Ireland have been 'not far from unbeatable' or 'amazing'. Yet.

Same with England.

Both sides will find out where they are in two weeks.

No need to be childish now it's just my view guys. How would it make yesterdays defeat more palatable, if you read my posts I have had nothing but
I'm not edging for any team too win so my view is open an not biased at all. Nothing will take away form the fact we got stuffed will it now.
I'm not Irish or English so i'm neutral, we lost, we have been below standard but England haven't shown to be anything special and Ireland have been. If you can see a fault int heir previous two game then feel free to point them out.
My comment had nothing to do with our loss yesterday we lost i can accept that unlike some people in this site.

Ok, just wondering where Ireland have had to do anything particularly special to beat two poor sides so far? They were effective and low in the error count but I still don't think we'll know how good they (and England are) until they face each other.

I don't get why everyone is wetting themselves over Schmidt's gameplan yesterday.

It was pretty much the England 2003 gameplan but with a weaker scrum and worse centre's.

And since then South Africa have been playing that gameplan for the last decade.

It's hardly a new idea, kick the ball to the opposition, let them tangle themselves running it back, turn over when required.

Sounds just like the Saracens gameplan actually...

Cyril wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:Well I think it has to be Ireland hands down in my view. yes it's a home match to England but Ireland have been not far from unbeatable in their first two games.
England haven;t shown anything to proves why they would be considered favorite in this game. Yes they one by a pretty large margin yesterday but it could and should have been bigger, they haven't been as clinical as Ireland.
Ireland will have the advantage at scrum time with Healey against a pretty weak Cole atm and their pack will give them the platform they need. It's just whether Ross decides to keep the scrum up or not.
England have been great at the breakdown in the past but haven't; be at their best their in the first two games and Ireland have been amazing. It might be close but Ireland are definitely favorites to win by a 10 point margin I think.
God help us against the french as well, they will be looking to kick on and make it a showdown between them and Ireland.

That's from a neutral perspective as well

neutral?

Hmmm. Methinks Mr Hamer might be overegging Ireland's pudding to make yesterday's defeat a bit more palatable.

I don't think Ireland have been 'not far from unbeatable' or 'amazing'. Yet.

Same with England.

Both sides will find out where they are in two weeks.

No need to be childish now it's just my view guys. How would it make yesterdays defeat more palatable, if you read my posts I have had nothing but
I'm not edging for any team too win so my view is open an not biased at all. Nothing will take away form the fact we got stuffed will it now.
I'm not Irish or English so i'm neutral, we lost, we have been below standard but England haven't shown to be anything special and Ireland have been. If you can see a fault int heir previous two game then feel free to point them out.
My comment had nothing to do with our loss yesterday we lost i can accept that unlike some people in this site.

Ok, just wondering where Ireland have had to do anything particularly special to beat two poor sides so far? They were effective and low in the error count but I still don't think we'll know how good they (and England are) until they face each other.

Yes but there was a reason why the two teams were so poor do you not think. Scotland don;t have many strength but their mauls in the past have been one thing and it was anonymous vs them. They then made us look like amateurs. I don;t think your giving the Irish players enough credit here and might be under estimating them a bit, you could be in for surprise if you do.
Ireland have shown dominance in the past two games and England haven't and that what i'm basing the 'favorites' label around. I just think they haven;t moved on from their good Autumn series like I expected them to.

Jhamer25 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:Well I think it has to be Ireland hands down in my view. yes it's a home match to England but Ireland have been not far from unbeatable in their first two games.
England haven;t shown anything to proves why they would be considered favorite in this game. Yes they one by a pretty large margin yesterday but it could and should have been bigger, they haven't been as clinical as Ireland.
Ireland will have the advantage at scrum time with Healey against a pretty weak Cole atm and their pack will give them the platform they need. It's just whether Ross decides to keep the scrum up or not.
England have been great at the breakdown in the past but haven't; be at their best their in the first two games and Ireland have been amazing. It might be close but Ireland are definitely favorites to win by a 10 point margin I think.
God help us against the french as well, they will be looking to kick on and make it a showdown between them and Ireland.

That's from a neutral perspective as well

neutral?

Hmmm. Methinks Mr Hamer might be overegging Ireland's pudding to make yesterday's defeat a bit more palatable.

I don't think Ireland have been 'not far from unbeatable' or 'amazing'. Yet.

Same with England.

Both sides will find out where they are in two weeks.

No need to be childish now it's just my view guys. How would it make yesterdays defeat more palatable, if you read my posts I have had nothing but
I'm not edging for any team too win so my view is open an not biased at all. Nothing will take away form the fact we got stuffed will it now.
I'm not Irish or English so i'm neutral, we lost, we have been below standard but England haven't shown to be anything special and Ireland have been. If you can see a fault int heir previous two game then feel free to point them out.
My comment had nothing to do with our loss yesterday we lost i can accept that unlike some people in this site.

Ok, just wondering where Ireland have had to do anything particularly special to beat two poor sides so far? They were effective and low in the error count but I still don't think we'll know how good they (and England are) until they face each other.

Yes but there was a reason why the two teams were so poor do you not think. Scotland don;t have many strength but their mauls in the past have been one thing and it was anonymous vs them. They then made us look like amateurs. I don;t think your giving the Irish players enough credit here and might be under estimating them a bit, you could be in for  surprise if you do.
Ireland have shown dominance in the past two games and England haven't and that what i'm basing the 'favorites' label around. I just think they haven;t moved on from their good Autumn series like I expected them to.

We'll have to agree with disagree then. I think you might be over-estimating them a little from what we've seen so far.

Also if you don't think England dominated Scotland yesterday then I don't know what game you were watching.

I'd say a decent French side in Paris is harder than a mis-firing Welsh side at home.

Ireland have played well and I'm not disregarding their performances but you seem to think they've suddenly turned invincible.

Jhamer25 wrote:
Look Schmidt is a great coach and his skill to adapt his team to counter the strengths of others is brilliant, he proved that yesterday. England have a weak scrum there their maul isn't anything special either.
I'm not saying it's certain either but they have to be favorites on form.
Also what much more do they have to show beyond the list you described, all of these area's are key factors of the game. As you have said they have been dominant in factors. England don't have a 9/10 partnership like Sexton/Murray, Englands break down work was brilliant last Autumn but hasn't been as effective or impressing in the first two games. Ireland however have great balance in their back row now and have been amazing in this area.

This England side is fairly well rounded - capable in theory of going around or through the opposition. This is the best 9/10 combo we've seen for a while - both Care and Farrell have played some of their best rugby for England in the two games so far. I also think England's breakdown work in the two away games has been very good, and am curious as to why you think this isn't the case. England's scrummaging hasn't been great, but I'd be surprised if Ireland could gain any significant advantage here, and whilst Hartley was on England's line out (a key aspect to any game) was perfect I think - which is fairly unusual.

Finally home advantage often does matter in rugby.

yappysnap wrote:I don't get why everyone is wetting themselves over Schmidt's gameplan yesterday.

It was pretty much the England 2003 gameplan but with a weaker scrum and worse centre's.

And since then South Africa have been playing that gameplan for the last decade.

It's hardly a new idea, kick the ball to the opposition, let them tangle themselves running it back, turn over when required.

Sounds just like the Saracens gameplan actually...

Honestly it looked like we had no discernible game plan for four years. It was a confused demoralized mess for the last two or three seasons, with Italy and Scotland starting to dispatch us.

All Saint Schmidt has done is got them doing some very basic stuff to the standard they are capable of. It's not a miracle.

yappysnap wrote:I don't get why everyone is wetting themselves over Schmidt's gameplan yesterday.

It was pretty much the England 2003 gameplan but with a weaker scrum and worse centre's.

And since then South Africa have been playing that gameplan for the last decade.

It's hardly a new idea, kick the ball to the opposition, let them tangle themselves running it back, turn over when required.

Sounds just like the Saracens gameplan actually...

The tension beginning to get to you, yappy? Already? That's early. There's a week break you know.

People are pleased with the execution, not the game plan. That said as Irish fans we are surprised and delighted that we a) had a game plan and b) executed it.

The way we approach England will be very different to the way we played against Wales, it'll be an individually tailored approach once again. We will always use the maul as a threat to keep teams honest but there is more variety to come.

HammerofThunor wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Ireland will win. Their all conquering regions have been crushing the measly English clubs all season, their players are giants compared to ours and their coach is the Einstein of rugby.

Simple, honest, hardworking Lancaster and his miss-fit bunch of English grafters just will not be able to compete with these god like beings.

Is that unconfident enough?

I think that's a little over the top but pretty much right.

It was aside from him missing out that they arent English and they believe noone except them and the French should be allowed to play rugby (because they are all english despite not being english). And probably something about bad teeth too.

SecretFly wrote:

Chjw131 wrote: I expect it to be a relatively limited gameplan from Schmidt designed around negating our runners.

The Irish will be keyed up but I think we might be equally driven for once. If we have any aspirations to the top tier of rugby we need to beat them well.

'Limited' is a relative term...certainly in Schmidt's book.  Limited is used to win a game, just as expansive might be.  He has history of both, with many of the same players he uses now.  The game against Wales was 'limited' but it achieved the ends designed for it - cutting the dash out of dashing Wales.  It doesn't mean the Irish can't do dashing themselves.  'Limited' - even under the failing tenure of Kidney, the Irish showed themselves well able to be much more than limited.

So we can agree the game-plan was limited. Good. We can also agree that you're a touch over-sensitive, also good.

My comment on the game plan was limited to the last match. I am more than well aware of Schmidt's adeptness at coaching and variation. My comment did not imply either him or Ireland were a 'limited' team. Do I think he'll go down a similar route for England? Yes I do.

Well obviously he missed those bits out. But the rest....spot on.

We're pleased we executed the gameplan and we're pleased we played it for 80 minutes - and were the strengthening team into the second half not the team falling away.

All progress of a kind.  Lancaster isn't exactly tearing any text books up either with his approach.  Rugby is rugby.  There's only so much you can do with an oval ball and strict rules of engagement.

yappysnap wrote:I don't get why everyone is wetting themselves over Schmidt's gameplan yesterday.

It was pretty much the England 2003 gameplan but with a weaker scrum and worse centre's.

And since then South Africa have been playing that gameplan for the last decade.

It's hardly a new idea, kick the ball to the opposition, let them tangle themselves running it back, turn over when required.

Sounds just like the Saracens gameplan actually...

In fairness 'd say that Saracens have broadened their gameplan quite a bit this season.

Chjw131 wrote: I expect it to be a relatively limited gameplan from Schmidt designed around negating our runners.

Why is a response sensitive???  Nope, it's a response.  You'll find that's how this place works.  You say something, someone else replies.  Sensitive?  It seems you're pretty familiar with the word yourself

Back to the point. Most specifically the point above.  You say Schmidt will design a limited gameplan to negate your runners?  This suggests you have runners to negate.  I'm just reminding you , and anyone else unfamiliar with Schmidt or his Irish players, that we have players that run too.  And he'll use them if he feels it's the appropriate gameplan.

Information....that's all

DaveM,
Last year I thought Englands work at the breadown was like no other teams. They constantly put pressure at the break down which gave their opposition slow ball and was just a nightmare to defend against. The autumn especially, they were flawless. The like of Hartley, cole,launchbery, Wood and billy were constantly putting pressure on opposition but I haven't seen that in their first two games. Ĺaunchbery although has been good (around the park), but not his usual work at that break down. Billy was Good as well but I think he has been involved in the open channels More defending than being involved at the breakdown. I haven't seen robshaw make as many turnovers than I know what he is capable of either.
if you can find the turnover stats because I can't. Then you can prove me wrong if I am, but im basing it from what I've seen
I'm not saying ireland will have the advantage here but its an area where they should definitely look at. I think healey can do a job in cole but mike ross is just aweful because he collapses under pressure after the hit (like yesterday). If he can stay up then Healey will have a good chance against Cole
England's line out has been there main strength in the first two games and will be evenly matched.

All nationalities have their own specific flavour of boorishness on here I've noticed, and both the Irish and English flavour is displayed in this thread.

It's probably because we're both sitting here looking at the opposition and thinking "Well, they're nothing special. They could beat us but they don't have much to worry us."

Both correct. It's the meeting of two fairly mediocre sides in a fairly mediocre competition by the standards set by the few nations who really do top-class international rugby. There's nothing either side has in their locker to frighten the very best. It'll be close, but Ireland look very marginal favourites as the side who are making less mistakes and being the more clinical.

People are people Notch. I'm certainly glad I'm one. It's an honour - after all, any one of us could have been a nematode instead.

There is a bit of a lack of the kind of game-breaking xfactor that a Fofana or North bring to the party.

SecretFly wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I don't get why everyone is wetting themselves over Schmidt's gameplan yesterday.

It was pretty much the England 2003 gameplan but with a weaker scrum and worse centre's.

And since then South Africa have been playing that gameplan for the last decade.

It's hardly a new idea, kick the ball to the opposition, let them tangle themselves running it back, turn over when required.

Sounds just like the Saracens gameplan actually...

The tension beginning to get to you, yappy?  Already?  That's early.  There's a week break you know.

Why would I be tense when we obviously can't win...

Notch wrote:All nationalities have their own specific flavour of boorishness on here I've noticed, and both the Irish and English flavour is displayed in this thread.

It's probably because we're both sitting here looking at the opposition and thinking "Well, they're nothing special. They could beat us but they don't have much to worry us."

Both correct. It's the meeting of two fairly mediocre sides in a fairly mediocre competition by the standards set by the few nations who really do top-class international rugby. There's nothing either side has in their locker to frighten the very best. It'll be close, but Ireland look very marginal favourites as the side who are making less mistakes and being the more clinical.

I wouldn't say either team was fairly mediocre Notch. So far both teams have been better then they have been in years. And they've both shown in the last 6 months when pushed to the limit just how good they can be. It's all about hitting those heights again, who'll do that and who'll fall away. Both sides have also shown they can frighten the very best, but do not have that extra percent to go on and win against the very best.

Gibson wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:All I'm going to say it that I have a lot of faith in Joe Schmidt's game plan and that I think for England to beat us I think they will have to put in something very special in every area of the pitch.  I'm really starting to see Schmidt as a strategic and tactical genius.  

And that's   exactly what will win it for us. He is light years ahead of the rest in the NH. As is Sexton at 10. The two main reasons why we will beat England. And beat them well.

Believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1fOZjiDaw4

 We do this so different to the English v Welsh thing that will be all the rage in a few weeks.  
That's usually open and blunt warfare.  
But this is just oh so cagey phoney war stuff.  "You is better than us probably but we're not all that bad"  "No seriously, dude, it's you guys that will probably win but just be careful not to say we're useless"

 

It's a little more tactical then the Welsh way Secret. They prefer the blunt approach.