Gatlands reign

If Wales only win one further game this 6 nations which is highly likely should Gatland face the sack. Although he has won 6 nations championships Wales have never stepped up fully to the world stage. His record against SH opposition has got to be the worst in the NH, Iyaly apart. Its impossible to win the world cup without beating SA,Oz,NZ therefore Wales have not and do not look like genuine world cup winners.

For me he has run his course. His predictable tactics were shown up by Ireland and his failure to bring youth thru and to drop Phillips has weakened Wales

its clearly time for a change. but whoops, the WRU have signed gatland on a new 7 year contract. clever gats, he knew that his squad is aging and riven by internal politics (wru vs regions) and may well not escape from the group of death at rwc2015.

so if he does get sacked, its going to cost the WRU probably north of 3million quid.

was a good move by gatland, but a really dumb one from roger lewis and the WRU. Again.

a couple of losses and people calling for the sack. You guys have never had it so good.

THis guy hasn't just delivered his mandate, he's smashed the mandate to pieces.

3 6N titles, 2 GS and a RWC SF.

Without him on board the numbers of welsh participants in the 2 lions tours would have been far far lower. He's brought trophies and made stars out of many players.

He has his faults sure but would you be willing to give up the titles for the odd win vs. SA and AUS????

Is it that time already? I thought we had a few more weeks before the "should Gatland be sacked?" stuff started up. Does that mean the "Gatland is the best coach in the world" stuff will come along a bit faster? I can see Wales winning their games in South Africa if they don't pull the 6 nations out of their backside.

One loss from two.Same record as Lancaster.Should he be sacked too?Honestly I think trolling has plumbed new depths.Wales could still win a record three in a row.
Keep your powder dry fellas.
When the amply covered lady has sung we will see what's what.
Ridiculous stuff.

Gatland has plenty of time to redeem himself - this is when we will really see how good he is. Can he identify the reasons for the thumping and correct them?

People said this just beofre the world cup. And halfway through the last 6 nations.

Given the welsh club game has become second division, with qualification for the group stages now a rarity, and the game in Ireland continued its rise whilst France and England increasingly dominate finacially Wales have done a damn good job to hold on at all.
The boom bust from Wales existed before him. What he has done is made the good years more common that the bad ones, and all the time kept a squad thats self regenerating and has the ideal balance of youth and experience. Wales have weathered the loss of their greatest ever try scoring wing, and err Henson without really seeing a blip.

They do look limp at the minute. But look at the context:
No team has ever won 3 titles in a row.
France has won every 6 nations after a lions tour, and wales supplied by far the largest contingent of players
The internal shennaigans with the WRU and Regions, which are well outside Gatlands remit, must be affecting the players who have one eye on their employment status.

These are pretty much the same players who were good enough to win last years title and get a grandslam the year before that, many of whom had a succesful Lions tour.
Are we saying Gatlands suddenly a bad coach because these guys arent producing what they previously have done? I dont buy it.

Sure you can get frustrated with the off thing like trusting "world class" legends like Adam Jones, or preferring Preistland over Biggar but honestly who do you think is going to come in and wave a magic wand for the short or long term?
Has Gatlands reign been a success or a failure? Is getting Wales' best ever finish in world cup a failure to compete on a world stage?

Try not to find this too insulting but Wales is a bit of a second division union. Their history of "world domination" dates back a hell of a long time now. They can barely sustain a professional game. Player numbers and cash are limited.
Gatlands reign has seen them keep pace with their better resourced peers ( France, England Ireland). they are no further behind the Sanzars than they were beofre he came. They havent been gazumped by Western Tongamoa.

Overall hes done a good job and burning him alive just because they are having a fallow year against a backdrop of the domestic game going into meltdown when the senior pros are knackered seems a touch harsh to me.

Very premature to think Gatland is finished because of one loss.  

Did Welsh fans want him gone before the campaign began?  So one loss means he's had his day?  The Championship is still on.  The players have two weeks to sort out their issues (if any) and I don't really think Wales will give England or France such an easy time.... most especially France that they have at home and we don't know yet how well this 2014 French team travels.  If Wales win that they might be back with smiles on their faces and renewed determination to push for the Championship.

Much too early for Gatland to be ousted in the minds of the Welsh... but perhaps it is the very first time that he'll be asked to prove how good a coach he is.  He'll have to find the weaknesses in his current gameplan and patch it up or change it.  He has work on his hands and how he extricates himself will determine how good he is.

I think Gatland has done well. He's a great man manager, but perhaps not the most tactically astute coach in the world.

Warrenball or Gatlandball will only get you so far. The Irish and the SH teams normally give a masterclass in dealing with the Welsh power. The Ozzies go around, the Kiwi's are relentless and the South Africans run the steam roller over.

Like I said Gatland's a great coach and I would love for him to sort Scotland's spineless bunch out.

However Wales have better players than Gatland's tactics suggest. Halfpenny isn't given enough of a mandate to run with the ball and Phillips still playing when his delivery and core scrum half abilities expose a type of thinking that stifles Welsh Flair.

Oh, and I don't think he should be sacked for losing to Ireland.

Well have just been reading that Barry John wants Gatland to drop Priestland, Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones and Mike Phillips for the next game. He is even suggesting that Gethin Jenkins might even consider retiring from International rugby.

I dont think that Gatland will get the sack if Wales do not win any more games in this 6ns. But he( Gatland) might consider stepping down if the team does not improve.

All i'm going to say is we will bounce back, it's not all doom and gloom yet.

majesticimperialman wrote:Well have just been reading that Barry John wants Gatland to drop Priestland, Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones and Mike Phillips for the next game. He is even suggesting that Gethin Jenkins might even consider retiring from International rugby.

I dont think that Gatland will get the sack if Wales do not win any more games in this 6ns. But he( Gatland) might consider stepping down  if the team does not improve.

I don't know all these old have beens are so bitter. The same with Graham Price.
He would drop probably two of the best props in the world because of one game. I recall us having the upper hand and winning three penalties.

From an English perspective, I would like him to stay. At least we know what we have to deal with, no surprises with WG

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:From an English perspective, I would like him to stay. At least we know what we have to deal with, no surprises with WG

Shame that it hasn't worked in the last 3 meetings though aye, oh wait   

Jhamer25 wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Well have just been reading that Barry John wants Gatland to drop Priestland, Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones and Mike Phillips for the next game. He is even suggesting that Gethin Jenkins might even consider retiring from International rugby.

I dont think that Gatland will get the sack if Wales do not win any more games in this 6ns. But he( Gatland) might consider stepping down  if the team does not improve.

I don't know all these old have beens are so bitter. The same with Graham Price.
He would drop probably two of the best props in the world because of one game. I recall us having the upper hand and winning three penalties.

To be fair theres a lot of Welsh fans talking down Jenkins as a spent force last year, and Jones this. Phillips is always under pressure in the fans minds and the internet was in spasm over Preistalands selection for this tournament.



Changes I can forsee are Preistland and one of the props. Warburton would be a huge call and one I doubt Gatland will make, although again many fans wouldve been happy to see Tupiric last weekend and for then next game.

Really whats needed is to wake up the pack.

Knowing what is coming and being able to deal with it are not the same thing.

Gethin, one of the best props in the world? Only in your dreams JHamer, couldn't get into the Toulon side on the bench most of the time. A few years ago possibly, one of the first mobile ball handling props, but he was never a scrummager.

Adam Jones is currently one of the worst props in the 6N, he has no been able to adapt to actually having to scrummage, Dan Cole is not much better at the moment. I think at 32 he is possibly too old to do it now. He has struggled all season and in both games in the 6N. He is in for another torrid time in a couple of weeks when he faces Domingo, all 5'7" of him. Just like Cole he is going to get underneath him and make life far from pleasant

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Well have just been reading that Barry John wants Gatland to drop Priestland, Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones and Mike Phillips for the next game. He is even suggesting that Gethin Jenkins might even consider retiring from International rugby.

I dont think that Gatland will get the sack if Wales do not win any more games in this 6ns. But he( Gatland) might consider stepping down  if the team does not improve.

I don't know all these old have beens are so bitter. The same with Graham Price.
He would drop probably two of the best props in the world because of one game. I recall us having the upper hand and winning three penalties.

To be fair theres a lot of Welsh fans talking down Jenkins as a spent force last year, and Jones this. Phillips is always under pressure in the fans minds and the internet was in spasm over Preistalands selection for this tournament.



Changes I can forsee are Preistland and one of the props. Warburton would be a huge call and one I doubt Gatland will make, although again many fans wouldve been happy to see Tupiric last weekend and for then next game.

Really whats needed is to wake up the pack.

Well I just think it would be mad to drop two men who have been the core of our team for years and they still are. Adam has come under criticism of late but what did he do wrong against Italy or Ireland. nothing it's just because he has such high expectations, just because he isn't scrummaging people off the park atm doesn't mean he should be dropped. Gethin done really well gained three penalties at the scrum (should have been 4) and lasted 70 minutes in his first game back, I do think he should be released to the blues this weekend though (and Sam) to get more game time. I wold start Biggar bit it's not because Rhys hasn't been bad it because he is safer.
The thing with is Tipuric is that he is our best 7 in wales, but it's clear Sam is Gats favorite and he needs to work that little bit more. He didn't do that or show Gatland why that 7 shirt should be his vs Italy. It's frustrating because he need to take those chances.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Knowing what is coming and being able to deal with it are not the same thing.

Gethin, one of the best props in the world? Only in your dreams JHamer, couldn't get into the Toulon side on the bench most of the time. A few years ago possibly, one of the first mobile ball handling props, but he was never a scrummager.

Adam Jones is currently one of the worst props in the 6N, he has no been able to adapt to actually having to scrummage, Dan Cole is not much better at the moment. I think at 32 he is possibly too old to do it now. He has struggled all season and in both games in the 6N. He is in for another torrid time in a couple of weeks when he faces Domingo, all 5'7" of him. Just like Cole he is going to get underneath him and make life far from pleasant

Bluddy hell hit a nerve did I, it was a joke mind.

As I said, still one of the best looseheads going. That was one coaches opinion, look back to the Lions tours and where is Sheridan then  
And yes Adam Jones also one of the best, I bet you would have  a very different outlook on them if they played for England wouldn't you. Cole has proves that he can't cut it against the big boys, France last week and on the lions tour for that better. I'm pretty sure it was Adam who was the core of the lions not Cole. Cole is good around the park but not t scrum time.

Take a chill pill it wasn't intended to hurt you  

I thnk Adam Jones has simply not been able to adapt to the new interpretation and his "cleverness" is no longer the tool it was under these interpretations. Subbed off fairly early wasn't he?

Jones did very well at winning the hit and the controversial tactic they used to nullify enlands scrum last year were down to that as well. Without it Jones has been neutered a bit, no doubt age/workload and his contract wrangles are affecting his form too. That said Coles not fared too well under the new rules either.
There were plenty of welsh fans advocating dropping jones and/or jenkins before this years tournament started. They may or may not be right, the point is that some of the things said by ex players in the medias arent that outrageous.

Gatland has perhaps become a little too dependant on "The Pattern" with his team tactics & selection... and why wouldn't he as it has been very succesful for him and Welsh rugby in general. Eventually someone always find a way to beat a set play book with new plays... it's a kind of rock, paper, scissors kind of scenario.

I don't think Wales need to panic yet about Gatland at the helm. You're always going to lose a game or two now & then. Even with a rock solid team and style of play. More concerning for the welsh should be the terrible lack of depth in the squad and player base.

It's always essential to bring in new blood into a constantly developing team or the team & style run the risk of stagnating ergo England in 2004. For 2 years we were unbeatable and won everything there was to win, but we didn't change, we didn't develop and we didn't grow. By the end of 2004 everyone was beating us.

Could this be Wales 2004?

Far too early to tell.

Metal Tiger wrote:...For 2 years we were unbeatable and won everything there was to win...

That's a bit of an overstatement when the team came up short against the southern big 3 over that period.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:...For 2 years we were unbeatable and won everything there was to win...

That's a bit of an overstatement when the team came up short against the southern big 3 over that period.

In that two-year period (approx Mar 2002 and Mar 2004) England lost two games (1 vs Baa Baa's and 1 in a World Cup warm-up France). No losses to the 'big three' during that time frame. The record run of 13 or so games against the 'big three' overlaps that period slightly.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:...For 2 years we were unbeatable and won everything there was to win...

That's a bit of an overstatement when the team came up short against the southern big 3 over that period.

Umm no. After the second game of the SA tour in 2000 they didnt lose to a SANZAR till 2004 and only lost to France twice and Ireland.

In that time they beat SA 5 times, Aus 5 times and NZ twice.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:...For 2 years we were unbeatable and won everything there was to win...

That's a bit of an overstatement when the team came up short against the southern big 3 over that period.

  

Missed the point or what!

But seeing as you've opened the door let's go... In 2002 & 2003 the only team to beat us was France. We got the slam in 2003 & won the RWC and won every single game against all of the big SH 3 home & away. If that's overstating then fair enough.

But we didn't develop or change and by 2004 we were rubbish.

What Welsh coach has had a good record over the SH, thats one area where we have struggled no matter who the coach has been at least with Gats we have had some success unlike the 80s and 90s.

Ageing team really, out of the starting XV only 4 were 30 or over with the average age of 26 if thats an ageing team then gods help us.

Metal Tiger wrote:Gatland has perhaps become a little too dependant on "The Pattern" with his team tactics & selection... and why wouldn't he as it has been very succesful for him and Welsh rugby in general. Eventually someone always find a way to beat a set play book with new plays... it's a kind of rock, paper, scissors kind of scenario.

I don't think Wales need to panic yet about Gatland at the helm. You're always going to lose a game or two now & then. Even with a rock solid team and style of play. More concerning for the welsh should be the terrible lack of depth in the squad and player base.

It's always essential to bring in new blood into a constantly developing team or the team & style run the risk of stagnating ergo England in 2004. For 2 years we were unbeatable and won everything there was to win, but we didn't change, we didn't develop and we didn't grow. By the end of 2004 everyone was beating us.

Could this be Wales 2004?

Far too early to tell.

You don't get it,do you.
We have only 4 professional sides.My region,the Dragons might struggle against Worcester!The Blues are worse than us!
We are seriously overachieving.The Scots whinge about only having two sides.Wales have two and a half.How can we have depth?
I know we don't get much coverage in England but a moment's thought would not go amiss.Fair play.

Metal Tiger wrote:Missed the point or what!

I didn't so much miss your point as completely misunderstand what you were saying. Many apologies, I'll retreat disgracefully.

Taffineastbourne wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:Gatland has perhaps become a little too dependant on "The Pattern" with his team tactics & selection... and why wouldn't he as it has been very succesful for him and Welsh rugby in general. Eventually someone always find a way to beat a set play book with new plays... it's a kind of rock, paper, scissors kind of scenario.

I don't think Wales need to panic yet about Gatland at the helm. You're always going to lose a game or two now & then. Even with a rock solid team and style of play. More concerning for the welsh should be the terrible lack of depth in the squad and player base.

It's always essential to bring in new blood into a constantly developing team or the team & style run the risk of stagnating ergo England in 2004. For 2 years we were unbeatable and won everything there was to win, but we didn't change, we didn't develop and we didn't grow. By the end of 2004 everyone was beating us.

Could this be Wales 2004?

Far too early to tell.

You don't get it,do you.
We have only 4 professional sides.My region,the Dragons might struggle against Worcester!The Blues are worse than us!
We are seriously overachieving.The Scots whinge about only having two sides.Wales have two and a half.How can we have depth?
I know we don't get much coverage in England but a moment's thought would not go amiss.Fair play.

Well aware you only have 4 regions and that 2 of them are ghastly... hence the terrible lack of depth.

If the 4 regions do join the AP and the WRU launches some new ones to fill its obligation to the Pro12 (assuming it doesn't collapse with the departure of the italians) do you think this would improve the available player base?

Rugby Fan wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:Missed the point or what!

I didn't so much miss your point as completely misunderstand what you were saying. Many apologies, I'll retreat disgracefully.

 

Metal Tiger wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:Gatland has perhaps become a little too dependant on "The Pattern" with his team tactics & selection... and why wouldn't he as it has been very succesful for him and Welsh rugby in general. Eventually someone always find a way to beat a set play book with new plays... it's a kind of rock, paper, scissors kind of scenario.

I don't think Wales need to panic yet about Gatland at the helm. You're always going to lose a game or two now & then. Even with a rock solid team and style of play. More concerning for the welsh should be the terrible lack of depth in the squad and player base.

It's always essential to bring in new blood into a constantly developing team or the team & style run the risk of stagnating ergo England in 2004. For 2 years we were unbeatable and won everything there was to win, but we didn't change, we didn't develop and we didn't grow. By the end of 2004 everyone was beating us.

Could this be Wales 2004?

Far too early to tell.

You don't get it,do you.
We have only 4 professional sides.My region,the Dragons might struggle against Worcester!The Blues are worse than us!
We are seriously overachieving.The Scots whinge about only having two sides.Wales have two and a half.How can we have depth?
I know we don't get much coverage in England but a moment's thought would not go amiss.Fair play.

Well aware you only have 4 regions and that 2 of them are ghastly... hence the terrible lack of depth.

If the 4 regions do join the AP and the WRU launches some new ones to fill its obligation to the Pro12 (assuming it doesn't collapse with the departure of the italians) do you think this would improve the available player base?

If you factor in the state of the Welsh economy you would see that pro Rugby is not sustainable.Folk cannot afford to go to games.It is all built on thin air and TV revenue.  

fa0019 wrote:a couple of losses and people calling for the sack. You guys have never had it so good.

THis guy hasn't just delivered his mandate, he's smashed the mandate to pieces.

3 6N titles, 2 GS and a RWC SF.

Seriously ? Who remembers semi finalists ? It's not even 2nd place, in fact it was 4th wasn't it ? Who remembers 4th place ? Oh yes, I remember now, Welsh fans.

I do seem to remember plenty of Welsh fans deriding the fact that England got to the RWC final in 2007, but you're "celebrating" the fact the Wales finished 4th in 2011. Unbelievable.  

nottins_again wrote:

fa0019 wrote:a couple of losses and people calling for the sack. You guys have never had it so good.

THis guy hasn't just delivered his mandate, he's smashed the mandate to pieces.

3 6N titles, 2 GS and a RWC SF.

Seriously ? Who remembers semi finalists ? It's not even 2nd place, in fact it was 4th wasn't it ? Who remembers 4th place ? Oh yes, I remember now, Welsh fans.

I do seem to remember plenty of Welsh fans deriding the fact that England got to the RWC final in 2007, but you're "celebrating" the fact the Wales finished 4th in 2011. Unbelievable.  

fa0019 is not a welsh fan you numpty.

The simple answer to the whole issue of Gatland's future is that he has a contract that sees him in the job until the end of the 2015 RWC. So there is no chance in hell that he will fall on his sword even if we take a get 50pts put on us every remaining game in the tournament. And with the WRU still paying off debts etc, I don't think it would look too good on the ballence sheets to have a huge pay off (which it would be) if the union were to hand him his cards.

The thing we will see, and it has started, is the whole 'honesty' campaign of his again, where players will be isolated and slammed in the press by Gats and the coaches for losing us games.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:The simple answer to the whole issue of Gatland's future is that he has a contract that sees him in the job until the end of the 2015 RWC.  So there is no chance in hell that he will fall on his sword even if we take a get 50pts put on us every remaining game in the tournament.  And with the WRU still paying off debts etc, I don't think it would look too good on the ballence sheets to have a huge pay off (which it would be) if the union were to hand him his cards.

The thing we will see, and it has started, is the whole 'honesty' campaign of his again, where players will be isolated and slammed in the press by Gats and the coaches for losing us games.

Somewhat negatory SS?

Given Gatland's quality, I think it'll take just one heart to heart over a pint, with Shaun Edwards, or a drive in the mountains with Roger Lewis, or one of those things that Scrum V love to quote, for Gats to realise that The Pattern has been worked out. The rugby world has moved on, leaving Gatlandball behind.

He will rip up the playbook and bring us charging back into the tournament with a display of powerful running rugby.

Cas, yeah it was a bit negative, although realistically Gats is in charge until RWC15, and it will cost too much to change that, even if results go wrong.

Personally, I think we were far from being the best team in the 6Ns last year (like whocares said, we had a few poor games, and one good one), and this season we are just continuing where we left off. I doubt we will see any changes in tactics, just a change in personnel quoting 'poor form' or 'fitness' as the issue. And to be fair I think that a shake up in playing staff may well be the answer. I think we need to look at who plays with passion and who has gone missing in games.

In some ways losing to Ireland was a good thing, its a definite wake up call to the coaching team and from their post match interview they seem to publicly acknowledge that.

Remember that we won a 6Nations on the back of a winless autumn series against Argentina and Samoa (no disrespect but we should be beating these teams), losing to a confident Irish team hurts but its not our worse result recently.

In many respects (other than it was quite enjoyable to watch at the time) the demolition of England was a bad thing for Welsh rugby.

It's papered over fundamental flaws in the game, on and off field, and 'empowered' management to create ever more fanciful excuses for dismal performances. "Our gameplan hasn't been figured out, we just didn't execute the gameplan properly...." FFS mun!

IronMike wrote:Remember that we won a 6Nations on the back of a winless autumn series against Argentina and Samoa (no disrespect but we should be beating these teams), losing to a confident Irish team hurts but its not our worse result recently.

Too true, we are only two weekends in to the tournament so far. If results work out in the next round we could be one of four teams sat on 2 wins from 3. Although the manner of the Irish wins over us and Scotland mean that it is unlikely we will catch them up on points difference.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Cas, yeah it was a bit negative, although realistically Gats is in charge until RWC15, and it will cost too much to change that, even if results go wrong.

Personally, I think we were far from being the best team in the 6Ns last year (like whocares said, we had a few poor games, and one good one), and this season we are just continuing where we left off.  I doubt we will see any changes in tactics, just a change in personnel quoting 'poor form' or 'fitness' as the issue.  And to be fair I think that a shake up in playing staff may well be the answer.  I think we need to look at who plays with passion and who has gone missing in games.

actually Gats contract lasts until the Japan RWC in 2019...he got a 7 year deal    no coach in sport deserves that level of security

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

IronMike wrote:Remember that we won a 6Nations on the back of a winless autumn series against Argentina and Samoa (no disrespect but we should be beating these teams), losing to a confident Irish team hurts but its not our worse result recently.

Too true, we are only two weekends in to the tournament so far.  If results work out in the next round we could be one of four teams sat on 2 wins from 3.  Although the manner of the Irish wins over us and Scotland mean that it is unlikely we will catch them up on points difference.

Ireland still have to beat England and France away, not saying they're not in the form to do it but you never know.

quinsforever wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Cas, yeah it was a bit negative, although realistically Gats is in charge until RWC15, and it will cost too much to change that, even if results go wrong......

actually Gats contract lasts until the Japan RWC in 2019...he got a 7 year deal    no coach in sport deserves that level of security

Now I feel really stupid, because I was thinking 2015 was a the RWC after next   . Dammit it's 2014 already, where has my life gone.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Cas, yeah it was a bit negative, although realistically Gats is in charge until RWC15, and it will cost too much to change that, even if results go wrong......

actually Gats contract lasts until the Japan RWC in 2019...he got a 7 year deal    no coach in sport deserves that level of security

Now I feel really stupid, because I was thinking 2015 was a the RWC after next   .  Dammit it's 2014 already, where has my life gone.

ScarletSpiderman
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lost -   

can't argue with the success he's had in what is a one dimensional, but effective game plan. But I want our game to expand. We have some of the most exciting players in the world in North, JD2 etc. It'd also be nice to see us vary our tactics in regards to crash ball. Use Roberts etc as a decoy, especially if teams are using two defenders to line him up, and slip it to North or JD2 on the outside, you've taken out 2 defenders already. Just little things like that annoy me about Gatland.

Also his loyalty to people like Phillips and somehow Preistland in some respect Warbs, when clearly others are in better form or should be given a go yet he still stays with these players. His substitutions also come way too late in games, as shown last week vs Ireland.

I can't help thinking that the coaches saying they have to look at themselves and re-assess things is just lip-service. If you look at Gatland's comments on icwales just now, it confirms that nothing will change for next time and he doesn't really see anything wrong with the way Wales approached the game. To me, that's cloud-cuckoo land. What he's thinking is - well, it would have worked if Geth, Warbs, Coombs and AJ had been a bit more match-fit. I don't think it would, though.

Take Adam Jones - he was always in there for his scrummaging, but now he doesn't really offer even that. But what chance of Gatland genuinely considering an alternative? He'd be better off working on Samson Lee and bringing him up to scratch, but that just ain't going to happen.

And how long is it since Gethin really put in a good performance?

Then there's Tipuric - I didn't understand what people said after the Italy game about him not having taken his chance. Maybe it's a different perspective from being in the ground rather than seeing it on the TV (you lose in some ways and gain in others), but I thought he was excellent - tackling, carrying, lineout, quick to the breakdown. He didn't get any turnovers, but that is a symptom of a collective Wales problem at the moment, not an individual one. I don't know what it'll take for Gatland to play him.

Anyone remember any moves in the backs from Wales yet this 6N? Any at all?

Gatland and Co have been blessed with a talent pool other recent Welsh coaches haven't had. To me, he is just not capable of thinking inflexibly enough, and his back-up is poor.

Anyone seen or heard from munkian?

I haven't seen him post here since 7th Feb.

BlueNote wrote:I can't help thinking that the coaches saying they have to look at themselves and re-assess things is just lip-service.  If you look at Gatland's comments on icwales just now, it confirms that nothing will change for next time and he doesn't really see anything wrong with the way Wales approached the game.  To me, that's cloud-cuckoo land.  What he's thinking is - well, it would have worked if Geth, Warbs, Coombs and AJ had been a bit more match-fit.  I don't think it would, though.

Take Adam Jones - he was always in there for his scrummaging, but now he doesn't really offer even that.  But what chance of Gatland genuinely considering an alternative?  He'd be better off working on Samson Lee and bringing him up to scratch, but that just ain't going to happen.

And how long is it since Gethin really put in a good performance?

Then there's Tipuric - I didn't understand what people said after the Italy game about him not having taken his chance. Maybe it's a different perspective from being in the ground rather than seeing it on the TV (you lose in some ways and gain in others), but I thought he was excellent - tackling, carrying, lineout, quick to the breakdown.  He didn't get any turnovers, but that is a symptom of a collective Wales problem at the moment, not an individual one. I don't know what it'll take for Gatland to play him.

Anyone remember any moves in the backs from Wales yet this 6N?  Any at all?

Gatland and Co have been blessed with a talent pool other recent Welsh coaches haven't had.  To me, he is just not capable of thinking inflexibly enough, and his back-up is poor.

Gethin was a little fortunate that he is considered a bit more effective in the loose and Paul James was penalised in the scrum v Italy (in my opinion).

He should bring Lee up to scratch, but does has a habit of bringing in players a little bit later than he should in my opinion. People say he has brought through players like Faletau etc (which is technically true), but he also should've played him sooner too (I'm sure he didn't use him in a Baabaas game as an example, just before he was capped). Lee should've been capped in the AIs and certainly should be in our 23 right now (I'd start him).

There undoubtedly needs to be changes to our gameplan, but I don't blame him for that. I think that is more Howley's department.