Gatlands Errors so far this Tour?

So far so good for the Lions although definate room for improvement and injury concerns. I think Gatland has been shown to have made some errors so far though.

Firstly I think it was a mistake not to bring 3rd number 10. Hogg just doesnt provide real cover there for a Test match environment. He should never be starting 10 for the first time in years on a Lions Tour given his experince and age. If it came down to having to start him at 10 for Test matches then the Lions are done for.

Secondly, the captaincy. Gatland has been loyal to Warburton. Maybe he felt he had to select him with the Welsh connection. Maybe the condition of BOD and POC made Gatland nervous about picking either as captain. But POC and BOD have looked good so far and very strong candidates to start. On the other hand, the backrow was immense for competition even before the tour - ask the English boys left out altogether - but seems like O'Brien and Heaslip have also returned to form that went missing in the 6 Nations. Tipuric also looks good. Gatland has backed himself into corner now. Surely he cant drop and undermine his captain? But has Warburton done enough to justify being a starter? Is it right the whole backrow balance should be to accommodate Warburton?

Any other errors Gatland has made?

Any other errors Gatland has made?

He's not been up any ladders?

Matt Stevens.

not enough Welsh players

I think its harsh saying that sam Warburton as captain is an error if he wins this series then he has done something BOD and POC haven't captained a winning lions side, he as also won a grand slam as captain and a 6 nations as grand slam because he is still wales captain even though he didn't captain the last two games. POC hasn't iver no has BOD so hes the most successful captain on the tour

welshboii15 wrote:I think its harsh saying that sam Warburton as captain is an error if he wins this series then he has done something BOD and POC haven't captained a winning lions side, he as also won a grand slam as captain and a 6 nations as grand slam because he is still wales captain even though he didn't captain the last two games. POC hasn't iver no has BOD so hes the most successful captain on the tour

BOD was Ireland's GS winning captain in 2009. Both he and POC have captained teams to HC wins and both have far more experience as captains than Sam. I don't think Gatland made an "error" appointing Warburton but of his available choices he has picked someone who may not merit his position in the team. That at the very least is unusual.

Warburtons credentials as a captain might be alright but the backrow was of such competitveness that I dont think it was adviseable to pick a captain from those positions. Especially when you had POC and BOD that it looks like Gatland intends to start in any case. I dont buy that Warburton is miles ahead of the other backrowers. The competition there meant he was always going to have to fight hard for a place. Making him captain means Gatlands hands are tied there.

Im sure leo Cullen was HC captain not BOD and international captain neither of them are POC was always behind BOD for Ireland and I understand that POC has won HC and League tittles but thats not on the international stage and Sam has already won more than both on that stage and he will strengthen that if the lions win the tour and im sure if he was in side like muster lienster or even ospreys im sure hed be more successful full on club stage. P.s this isnt me saying BOD or POC are bad captains im just going back to the OP and proving some reasons why its not an error

The biggest ones were making his National Captain Captain before he knew if he was going to be on form or fit and only taking 2 10s. Everything else can be argued either way

But was POC full fit wa a handful of games and BOD people wasn't sure if he was going so their all in same boat

The captaincy may turn out to be his biggest error. It may turn out fine. I think selecting his national captain as the Lions captain, in a hugely competitive position where not many outside Gatland would see Warbs as a guaranteed starter, was a mistake. Especially when there were other strong candidates.

Although BOD and POC have both had the honour before and both series were lost. No captain could have saved '05. And POC did a good job 4 years ago, coming close to the best team in the world at the time with ELV rules that favoured the Boks style of play. However, both have had their chance.

I personally would have went for Sexton.

Nah Adam Jones leads by example very very rarely has a bad game and imho is first and only name on the test team so far

Gatland's selections of captain, squad and team may turn out to be viewed like SCW's.

Only in retrospect, worse. Arguably, no Lions team could have beaten the '05 ABs. A failure to win in '13 may be seen as dereliction of duty.

[ed] Bookies' odds on expectation of Lions tour win http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/lions-tour/lions-tour/series-winner

welshboii15 wrote:Im sure leo Cullen was HC captain not BOD and international captain neither of them are POC was always behind BOD for Ireland and I understand that POC has won HC and League tittles but thats not on the international stage and Sam has already won more than both on that stage and he will strengthen that if the lions win the tour and im sure if he was in side like muster lienster or even ospreys im sure hed be more successful full on club stage. P.s this isnt me saying BOD or POC are bad captains im just going back to the OP and proving some reasons why its not an error

I'm sorry but I do not look at Sam Warburton and think, "he is a better leader than Paul O'Connell and Brian O'Driscoll."

At the time of the squad selection, I was a bit uncertain who should be the captain. I don't know if this was in Gatland's hands but was the captain picked too early?
I edged towards BOD but he wasn't absolutely sure of a starting spot at the time and POC was only recently back from injury, proving he was good enough to tour but the captaincy had come too soon for him. Now that POC is practically assured of a start, and is clearly such a leader on and off the field, he would be my choice as captain if Gatland hadn't already selected a tour captain. On the other hand, Warburton is not matching the form of several back row competitors. Could picking a tour captain before the plane left have been avoided?

I would have plumped for BOD out of the current squad. But with no strings attached.

theslosty wrote:

welshboii15 wrote:Im sure leo Cullen was HC captain not BOD and international captain neither of them are POC was always behind BOD for Ireland and I understand that POC has won HC and League tittles but thats not on the international stage and Sam has already won more than both on that stage and he will strengthen that if the lions win the tour and im sure if he was in side like muster lienster or even ospreys im sure hed be more successful full on club stage. P.s this isnt me saying BOD or POC are bad captains im just going back to the OP and proving some reasons why its not an error

I'm sorry but I do not look at Sam Warburton and think, "he is a better leader than Paul O'Connell and Brian O'Driscoll."

At the time of the squad selection, I was a bit uncertain who should be the captain. I don't know if this was in Gatland's hands but was the captain picked too early?
I edged towards BOD but he wasn't absolutely sure of a starting spot at the time and POC was only recently back from injury, proving he was good enough to tour but the captaincy had come too soon for him. Now that POC is practically assured of a start, and is clearly such a leader on and off the field, he would be my choice as captain if Gatland hadn't already selected a tour captain. On the other hand, Warburton is not matching the form of several back row competitors. Could picking a tour captain before the plane left have been avoided?

Its an interesting point. Given there are a number of warm up games with the intention of selcting a test team and trying out combinations and tactics, maybe the same should apply to the captaincy. I dont see the issue with announcing the test captain a week before the 1st Test. The tour captain isnt going to play every game anyway so maybe they should hold off until they form a better idea of the bigger picture. The squad will have natural leaders in any case. The captaincy can provide a bit of a sideshow that can do more harm than good.

Yet people would have been thinking in their heads gatlands playing it safe going with BOD or POC but hes shown balls by going with sam and going with two fly halfs and even if they win and sam has the games of his life and to people out side wales or the more open minded fans he's never going be a good choice. He wasn't my choice as a said adam jones is but its done and im for sure behind him and so far not seen a single reason not to behind him

He hadn't made any. The lions are unbeaten and haven't looked like losing yet. We'll only be able to judge any mistakes on the basis that something has gone wrong. If we win the series will taking only two fly halves and naming an out of form captain still be considered errors? People on here are quick to criticise based on their superior knowledge of the game and yet I'm pretty sure nobody on here has a coaching pedigree like gatland. Yes I know it's a forum but jeez at last wait until we lose

Just because I passed an exam (or even merited it) doesn't mean I didn't make any mistakes, and in fact it is a point of contention at my University that we only get any feedback at all on which to improve if we were to fail something

No but if you have 25 years experience of doing something you might be a little put out of someone who watches it being done were top start criticising your work before you've even done anything wrong. My Other point is that they're not mistakes until we lose.

Judging Gatland's performance is easy.

Try this test: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22846140

mckay1402 wrote:No but if you have 25 years experience of doing something you might be a little put out of someone who watches it being done were top start criticising your work before you've even done anything wrong. My Other point is that they're not mistakes until we lose.

This just isn't true, it's a huge logical fallacy. The former I accept, and Mr Gatland is infinitely more experienced in this area than I, but certain things he was criticised for (like picking so many injured/injury prone players) have already had tangible consequences, and that Warburton's form and fitness is less than the other potential 7s and that this will provide a selection problem that many anticipated (included those who have played on Lions Tours and professionally watch the game like Mr Moore) is indisputable. The risk with only 2 10s is huge, but you are correct in saying that it has not resulted in an issue yet

Warburton as captain shouldn't be a worry anyway if you think about it. There'll be a whole array of senior players who know what to do in big games regardless of who's captain. Adam Jones, Phillips, Sexton, O'Driscoll, O'Connell, possibly Heaslip. Maybe AW Jones. They all know how to take a game by the scruff of the neck and won't be headless chickens if the named tour captain isn't fit and isn't inspiring them. In fact I've seen most of them barking orders and encouragement throughout the games so far.

In terms of decision making, there is no issue with Warbs competence here and modern captains tend to confer with their senior "lieutenants" these days anyway.

Gatland named Warburton captain because he see's him as the most nailed on starter and a good leader. In fact I think he believes more in Warburton as a leader than Warburton does himself. If Warburton is fully fit and on form, we're laughing. If he isn't there are plenty of others to provide the leadership.

winchester wrote: Gatland has been loyal to Warburton. Maybe he felt he had to select him with the Welsh connection.
Surely he cant drop and undermine his captain? But has Warburton done enough to justify being a starter? Is it right the whole backrow balance should be to accommodate Warburton?

Any other errors Gatland has made?

1. Why isn't Warburton "Captain Material"
2. Did you not think Warburton had a pretty decent game considering that was his first game for what two months and considering that was breakneck pace and they were the only quality opponents the Lions have faced so far on tour?

or...........

3. Have you an agenda you are trying to hide?

I believe Gatland was spot on with Warbs as captain: Firstly he is a leader both on and just as importantly off the field, Secondly he had a pretty good game considering his lack of gametime and the sheer pace and quality of the opponents and he will have gained so much confidence from that performance

Based on ability, potential, form and balance the test back three has to be

8. Heaslip
7. Warburton
6. Lydiate

I thought he deffo made a mistake in not taking three FHs but as can be seen today Hogg is more than a capable 3rd FH (as could be seen from Hoggs all round contribution in todays game)...........

So fair dos Mr G you seem to be spot on in most things

Feckless Rogue wrote:Warburton as captain shouldn't be a worry anyway if you think about it. There'll be a whole array of senior players who know what to do in big games regardless of who's captain. Adam Jones, Phillips, Sexton, O'Driscoll, O'Connell, possibly Heaslip. Maybe AW Jones. They all know how to take a game by the scruff of the neck and won't be headless chickens if the named tour captain isn't fit and isn't inspiring them. In fact I've seen most of them barking orders and encouragement throughout the games so far.

In terms of decision making, there is no issue with Warbs competence here and modern captains tend to confer with their senior "lieutenants" these days anyway.

Gatland named Warburton captain because he see's him as the most nailed on starter and a good leader. In fact I think he believes more in Warburton as a leader than Warburton does himself. If Warburton is fully fit and on form, we're laughing. If he isn't there are plenty of others to provide the leadership.

But is he in the top 3 back rowers? I don't think he's a bad captain but I would be starting Tipuric

If your picking back row on form Warburton & Lydiate wouldn't be in the top 3 back row players.

Unless Warburton puts in a good 90 minute performance before the first test it would be a travesty not to start Tipuric at 7.
I would currently have Heaslip & Croft with him.

Difficult to say whether Hogg can play at 10 in a test based on today's game although I note he missed the most number of tackles today followed by Evans.
Not great for a potential 10 or 15.

And today is not something you can decide whether Hogg could play 10 against the Wallabies or even a Super 15 on. Cipriani could have looked class at 10 today such was the menace of the opposition

ChequeredJersey wrote:And today is not something you can decide whether Hogg could play 10 against the Wallabies or even a Super 15 on. Cipriani could have looked class at 10 today such was the menace of the opposition

Well you can say that for nearly all the games so far on this Lions tour.............. so we cannae assess any of the players apart from one game so far!!!!

You can easily assess Hoggs contribution in the fly half channel based on everyone elses' game, and IMHO he did enough not to worry in a few weeks time if he is covering the test FB/FH roles off the bench.

Gatland stated that he thought Hogg had enough skills to operate in a FH channel, I thought Hogg should have been left to fight for the 15 jersey and Biggar should have travelled

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:If your picking back row on form Warburton & Lydiate wouldn't be in the top 3 back row players.

Unless Warburton puts in a good 90 minute performance before the first test it would be a travesty not to start Tipuric at 7.
I would currently have Heaslip & Croft with him.

Difficult to say whether Hogg can play at 10 in a test based on today's game although I note he missed the most number of tackles today followed by Evans.
Not great for a potential 10 or 15.

I assume you mean 80. A bit harsh to make Warbs play an extra 10 by himself just to prove himself, unless he's actually playing for the Welsh football team!

The 2009 tour was a lost series but we ended up talking more about what went right rather than what went wrong. McGeechan's main mistake was in his selections for the first Test. Apart from that, he fostered a positive team spirit, gave a good set of coaches their first Lions experience, and re-established the Lions' touring credentials.

Unless Gatland loses this series 3-0, it's unlikely he'll suffer the same abuse as Woodward but it will be seen as a missed chance. If he achieves a series win of any sort, then I don't think we'll be too fussed about how he got there. I suppose if it's a 2-1 win, and the dropped Test is the only lost match, then some might complain he missed out on the chance for a whitewash.

If we do lose, then most of the critics will likely contend that Gatland failed once again to come up with a gameplan to beat Australia. If our defence is ropey, then his choice of Andy Farrell as coach might be questioned.

There is a risk he'll make the same mistake as McGeechan four years ago, and get his selection for the first Test wrong. In McGeechan's case, he relied on tour form to guide his selections but drew the wrong lessons about our relative strength because the initial opposition was too weak.

This year, the opposition is a mixed bag again. Rather than guiding Gatland's choices, however, I think the first matches have confirmed to him that, with choices being close in many cases, he may as well go with the starting line-up he had pencilled in before travelling (injuries permitting).

That's also likely to be the line-up for which Australia have done most preparation.

Clearly, there's no point playing George North at lock and Tom Croft on the wing just to do the unexpected. However, if the Wallabies are going to do us over in the first Test, it will probably be because they find themselves playing against familiar patterns, and we discover some of our personnel are too underdone when the intensity steps up.

Given the high attrition rate in Lions matches, you have to think that Gatland's selections on the bench will be very important for the final result. Does he look for versatility or direct impact?

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:If your picking back row on form Warburton & Lydiate wouldn't be in the top 3 back row players.

Unless Warburton puts in a good 90 minute performance before the first test it would be a travesty not to start Tipuric at 7.
I would currently have Heaslip & Croft with him.

Difficult to say whether Hogg can play at 10 in a test based on today's game although I note he missed the most number of tackles today followed by Evans.
Not great for a potential 10 or 15.

I cannae believe this!..... a tradition blindside is supposed to do all the dirty work, following the ball (NOT RUNNING WITH THE BALL) and be there for redistribution when the ball carrier fails. Mr Gatland realises to balance the front five he needs a traditional defensive blindside alongside Heaslip and the openside which in my mind can only be a match-fit Warburton...... Lydiate in what only his second or third competitive game was the highest tackler with 13 tackles, has been awesome in the line-out and has supported the headline runners and cleaned up when they have been held up.

Todays Lions 23 should have put 100 points on this side, Tips had an ok but most certainly not great performance as this side gave him one of the easiest and open games he has faced sine he played for Trebanos RFC. Todays back three made too many mistakes SOB was poor, Heaslip didn't gel with the two flankers and this just proved how good Warburton actually played against a side on Saturday that you couldn't compare to this shower today.

Sometimes posters comments are as transparent as glass.

flyhalffactory wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:And today is not something you can decide whether Hogg could play 10 against the Wallabies or even a Super 15 on. Cipriani could have looked class at 10 today such was the menace of the opposition

Well you can say that for nearly all the games so far on this Lions tour.............. so we cannae assess any of the players apart from one game so far!!!!

You can easily assess Hoggs contribution in the fly half channel based on everyone elses' game, and IMHO he did enough not to worry in a few weeks time if he is covering the test FB/FH roles off the bench.

Gatland stated that he thought Hogg had enough skills to operate in a FH channel, I thought Hogg should have been left to fight for the 15 jersey and Biggar should have travelled

Aye and on that basis Warburton who played a full 80 minutes against the toughest opposition, had a try disallowed by the TMO, turned over plenty of ball and won plenty of penalties wasn't as good as rival players against lesser opposition...? Where as Farrell who kicked the ball to the Reds best back three player, the electric Moynahan, who scored, dropped the ball over the line and was as generally inept as in the first game vs the Baabaa's is rated higher because of the experience?

I struggle to value peoples opinions when they seem so confused.

Hogg, thankfully, had a great game today. The lack of quality opposition taken for granted he still made fewer mistakes, showed better vision and aided the fluidity of the backline in as adept a fashion as Sexton does.

An Australian mate of mine I was chatting to had a candid point about the flyhalves. He said watching the Reds game vs todays against the CCXV was that the other 14 players looked as though they lacked faith in Farrell on the weekend, where as they looked confident and excited to be playing around Hogg today.

I think he is right.

flyhalffactory wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:If your picking back row on form Warburton & Lydiate wouldn't be in the top 3 back row players.

Unless Warburton puts in a good 90 minute performance before the first test it would be a travesty not to start Tipuric at 7.
I would currently have Heaslip & Croft with him.

Difficult to say whether Hogg can play at 10 in a test based on today's game although I note he missed the most number of tackles today followed by Evans.
Not great for a potential 10 or 15.

I cannae believe this!..... a tradition blindside is supposed to do all the dirty work, following the ball (NOT RUNNING WITH THE BALL) and be there for redistribution when the ball carrier fails. Mr Gatland realises to balance the front five he needs a traditional defensive blindside alongside Heaslip and the openside which in my mind can only be a match-fit Warburton...... Lydiate in what only his second or third competitive game was the highest tackler with 13 tackles, has been awesome in the line-out and has supported the headline runners and cleaned up when they have been held up.

Todays Lions 23 should have put 100 points on this side, Tips had an ok but most certainly not great performance as this side gave him one of the easiest and open games he has faced sine he played for Trebanos RFC. Todays back three made too many mistakes SOB was poor, Heaslip didn't gel with the two flankers and this just proved how good Warburton actually played against a side that you couldn't compare to Saturday.

Sometimes posters comments are as transparent as glass.

The only point i would defer to would be that Warburton is also the perfect blindside to play with Tipuric as open. They were a simply sublime combination when used by Wales and this could well be our secret weapon. I am sure all the coaches will agree on the virility of their last outing together as all were present and concerned in its success or failure.

Maesteg mate

Re: Warbs/Tips combo I do agree with you to an extent, but as one of your fellow welsh posters mentioned they only played once together and only really cranked it up for about 30 mins of the second half against England. In my mind that's not enough play-time to warrant a selection against a test Australian side. If you play a fairly mobile and lightweight 8 in Heaslip and a mobile quick attack minded 7 in Tips then Warbs will have his work cut out to defend those two channels as well as the following-up role of a blindside. I cant see Gatland wanting that 6/7/8 axis.

well we will see what happens against the Waratahs and the Brumbies. Jake White has pledged to put out his strongest possible side next week which should be a good battle, something like:

15- Mogg
14 - Cox
13- Kuridrani
12- Smith
11-Speight
10 - Toomua
9- White
8- Auelua
7- Fainga'a
6- Smiler
5- Carter
4- Fardy
3- Palmer
2- Silivia
1- Smith

flyhalffactory wrote:Maesteg mate

Re: Warbs/Tips combo I do agree with you to an extent, but as one of your fellow welsh posters mentioned they only played once together and only really cranked it up for about 30 mins of the second half against England. In my mind that's not enough play-time to warrant a selection against a test Australian side. If you play a fairly mobile and lightweight 8 in Heaslip and a mobile quick attack minded 7 in Tips then Warbs will have his work cut out to defend those two channels as well as the following-up role of a blindside. I cant see Gatland wanting that 6/7/8 axis.

It would work with Faletau at eight. THat is a perfectly balanced backrow. I think Faletau has been great so far and my biggest criticism of Warburton in the Reds game was that he should have looked to his left as Faletau was on the wing at full pace ready to take the try scoring pass, that said Warbs did cross the line, appear to have grounded the ball and should have been awarded a try.

maestegmafia wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:And today is not something you can decide whether Hogg could play 10 against the Wallabies or even a Super 15 on. Cipriani could have looked class at 10 today such was the menace of the opposition

Well you can say that for nearly all the games so far on this Lions tour.............. so we cannae assess any of the players apart from one game so far!!!!

You can easily assess Hoggs contribution in the fly half channel based on everyone elses' game, and IMHO he did enough not to worry in a few weeks time if he is covering the test FB/FH roles off the bench.

Gatland stated that he thought Hogg had enough skills to operate in a FH channel, I thought Hogg should have been left to fight for the 15 jersey and Biggar should have travelled

Aye and on that basis Warburton who played a full 80 minutes against the toughest opposition, had a try disallowed by the TMO, turned over plenty of ball and won plenty of penalties wasn't as good as rival players against lesser opposition...? Where as Farrell who kicked the ball to the Reds best back three player, the electric Moynahan, who scored, dropped the ball over the line and was as generally inept as in the first game vs the Baabaa's is rated higher because of the experience?

I struggle to value peoples opinions when they seem so confused.

Hogg, thankfully, had a great game today. The lack of quality opposition taken for granted he still made fewer mistakes, showed better vision and aided the fluidity of the backline in as adept a fashion as Sexton does.

An Australian mate of mine I was chatting to had a candid point about the flyhalves. He said watching the Reds game vs todays against the CCXV was that the other 14 players looked as though they lacked faith in Farrell on the weekend, where as they looked confident and excited to be playing around Hogg today.

I think he is right.

Yeah, and Farrell wouldn't be my 2nd choice 10 on tour either. Anyway. I expect us to win the first test, mostly as I think Deans will and has made some selection mistakes. After that it will be can we stop the Wallabies from adapting quickly enough?

If they play Hooper-Gill together, then I agree that Warbs-Tips might be our best bet at a flank combo. Shouldn't get too destroyed at breakdown time, handy enough in the loose and quick enough to chase them and a bit more power through Warbs. If they pick those flankers, we need to carry tight to the ruck and off the back of scrums to make them tackle a lot and test their physicality and take them out of the loose game (and get them to the bottom, not top of the rucks) a bit

gatts mistake...........not taking dan biggar.

i am not related to dan, although you would think so as at every opportunity i want him get recognised for the player he is NOW, not remembered for the player he was 2 years ago..........he deserved a lions place, the only welsh player in the game against england 6nations not to be on the lions tour..........unbelievable.

Quickness of thought not just deed seems to be paramount in modern rugby, Tipuric and Faletau seem to have a superb understanding of doing the right thing and when and their intelligent instigation of play leads to some fantastic quick ball opportunities.

flyhalffactory wrote:

winchester wrote: Gatland has been loyal to Warburton. Maybe he felt he had to select him with the Welsh connection.
Surely he cant drop and undermine his captain? But has Warburton done enough to justify being a starter? Is it right the whole backrow balance should be to accommodate Warburton?

Any other errors Gatland has made?

1. Why isn't Warburton "Captain Material"
2. Did you not think Warburton had a pretty decent game considering that was his first game for what two months and considering that was breakneck pace and they were the only quality opponents the Lions have faced so far on tour?

or...........

3. Have you an agenda you are trying to hide?

I believe Gatland was spot on with Warbs as captain: Firstly he is a leader both on and just as importantly off the field, Secondly he had a pretty good game considering his lack of gametime and the sheer pace and quality of the opponents and he will have gained so much confidence from that performance

Based on ability, potential, form and balance the test back three has to be

8. Heaslip
7. Warburton
6. Lydiate

I thought he deffo made a mistake in not taking three FHs but as can be seen today Hogg is more than a capable 3rd FH (as could be seen from Hoggs all round contribution in todays game)...........

So fair dos Mr G you seem to be spot on in most things

1. Can you point out where I said he is not captain material? Im not fussed if he is captain material or not. The squad has enough experience. Im concerned because I dont think in whats a highly competitive backrow that he is certain to start. By selecting him as captain Gatland has pretty much locked himself into starting him. Not only that, but the entire balance of the backrow must then be structured around Warburtons inneviteable prescence.

2. Decent, but not a given starter and facing strong competition from an in form back row.

3. No, I think you are a conspiracy theorist determined to see an agenda where non exists.

Well said Winchester & good thread initiative.

mckay1402 wrote:No but if you have 25 years experience of doing something you might be a little put out of someone who watches it being done were top start criticising your work before you've even done anything wrong. My Other point is that they're not mistakes until we lose.

This is completely wrong in my opinion. In rugby, obviously the win is the most important first and foremost. However, just take a look at the progression of Ireland. A big win every so often, then another batch of losses. Even the wins consisted of non-existent attack with poor tactics and poor basics. There has been no progression, plenty of mistakes, a couple of wins. No consistent improvement.

Thankfully very few coaches think this way and are always seeking improvement, and if the team win despite playing crap, you can bet that a half decent coach would come down very hard on those mistakes that may have cost them the game.

ChequeredJersey wrote:If they play Hooper-Gill together, then I agree that Warbs-Tips might be our best bet at a flank combo. Shouldn't get too destroyed at breakdown time, handy enough in the loose and quick enough to chase them and a bit more power through Warbs. If they pick those flankers, we need to carry tight to the ruck and off the back of scrums to make them tackle a lot and test their physicality and take them out of the loose game (and get them to the bottom, not top of the rucks) a bit

I think O'Brien is just as good at the breakdown as Warburton to be completely honest. His main weakness here is giving away too many penalties, though I would bet he makes at least as many turnovers as Warburton. He is also fantastic at slowing down opposition ball. Very underrated in that regard.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:If they play Hooper-Gill together, then I agree that Warbs-Tips might be our best bet at a flank combo. Shouldn't get too destroyed at breakdown time, handy enough in the loose and quick enough to chase them and a bit more power through Warbs. If they pick those flankers, we need to carry tight to the ruck and off the back of scrums to make them tackle a lot and test their physicality and take them out of the loose game (and get them to the bottom, not top of the rucks) a bit

I think O'Brien is just as good at the breakdown as Warburton to be completely honest. His main weakness here is giving away too many penalties, though I would bet he makes at least as many turnovers as Warburton. He is also fantastic at slowing down opposition ball. Very underrated in that regard.

I wouldn't say underrated, O'Brien has quite a reputation for slowing ball down. Thing is as you elude to previously it is an art that is susceptible to conceding penalties. Warburton looks to win ball which invariably awards his team penalties.

Fair enough Winchester...........

OK I'll roll with this

Before the Lions selection with POC (AWJ Ianto Parling Launchbury having great 6Ns) and BOD (Doc, Foxy, Manu, Madigan, Scott all having very good 6Ns) both carrying injuries and in all honesty both not having the best of a 6Ns so most certainly not a shoe-in for the tests: so who would you have selected as Capt of the Lions.

Not trying to create an agenda where there is none, but if you compare Warbs performance in the contect of his first game, (with all the rugby world waiting for him to fall) and against probably the best side outside of the test arena then I think he had a very very good game.

Who has played better than him in the 7 jersey todate?, Tipuric certainly didn't better today, SOB has had an ok series so far, but went missing for the first try on Saturday and in such open play today didn't have a marque game did he? ditto with Tips.

The backrow competition is fierce as they are all quality players hence its always going to be unlikely that any players will be nailed on.

Like Will Carling going as the 1993 captain but got bulldozed out of the test side by Scott Gibbs even tho both could have done a job. Its not a mistake if Warburton doesn't play its just that another player had raised the mark and taken his play.

But at this moment in my mind no one has

flyhalffactory wrote:Fair enough Winchester...........

OK I'll roll with this

Before the Lions selection with POC (AWJ Ianto Parling Launchbury having great 6Ns) and BOD (Doc, Foxy, Manu, Madigan, Scott all having very good 6Ns) both carrying injuries and in all honesty both not having the best of a 6Ns so most certainly not a shoe-in for the tests: so who would you have selected as Capt of the Lions.

Not trying to create an agenda where there is none, but if you compare Warbs performance in the contect of his first game, (with all the rugby world waiting for him to fall) and against probably the best side outside of the test arena then I think he had a very very good game.

Who has played better than him in the 7 jersey todate?, Tipuric certainly didn't better today, SOB has had an ok series so far, but went missing for the first try on Saturday and in such open play today didn't have a marque game did he? ditto with Tips.

The backrow competition is fierce as they are all quality players hence its always going to be unlikely that any players will be nailed on.

Like Will Carling going as the 1993 captain but got bulldozed out of the test side by Scott Gibbs even tho both could have done a job. Its not a mistake if Warburton doesn't play its just that another player had raised the mark and taken his play.

But at this moment in my mind no one has

I agree with you that the captain is not an easy pick. As I said in my OP, I can see why Gatland picked Warburton. He knows him better and the other most obvious choices in POC and BOD had question marks over fitness. Another poster pointed out delaying the captains pick could be better. I agree. Why not rotate the captaincy amongst squad leaders during the tour games and then choose the Test captain closer to the first Test when there is a clearer picture? Personally if I had to choose the captain before the tour embarks Id have gone with BOD. I would have steered clear of the backrow as its an area that needs balance and fine tuning and is fiercly competitive.

It would be remarkeably brave of Gatland to drop Warburton for the Test. Despite the cliche of all jerseys being up for grabs, the captain starts off on the teamsheet and really has to play himself out. On top of that you have Gatlands own relationship with Warburton which could suffer back with Wales. And by dropping his initial captain he would be admitting he got the pick wrong. Cant see it happening unless Warburton really has a shocker. Id prefer a to have tried several backrow combination with realistic chances of starting the Tests and selecting on that basis but despite everything Warburton is pretty much certain to start and the Test backrow will be selected according to who plays best alongside him with form or performances being of secondary concern.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/britishandirishlionsrugby/10114283/Lions-2013-player-ratings-v-Combined-Country-XV.html

maestegmafia wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:If they play Hooper-Gill together, then I agree that Warbs-Tips might be our best bet at a flank combo. Shouldn't get too destroyed at breakdown time, handy enough in the loose and quick enough to chase them and a bit more power through Warbs. If they pick those flankers, we need to carry tight to the ruck and off the back of scrums to make them tackle a lot and test their physicality and take them out of the loose game (and get them to the bottom, not top of the rucks) a bit

I think O'Brien is just as good at the breakdown as Warburton to be completely honest. His main weakness here is giving away too many penalties, though I would bet he makes at least as many turnovers as Warburton. He is also fantastic at slowing down opposition ball. Very underrated in that regard.

I wouldn't say underrated, O'Brien has quite a reputation for slowing ball down. Thing is as you elude to previously it is an art that is susceptible to conceding penalties. Warburton looks to win ball which invariably awards his team penalties.

The thing is, Warburton actually does this a lot less than he gets credit for. Something like 0.5 turnovers a game, which is pretty low for an open side.

flyhalffactory wrote:Fair enough Winchester...........

OK I'll roll with this

Before the Lions selection with POC (AWJ Ianto Parling Launchbury having great 6Ns) and BOD (Doc, Foxy, Manu, Madigan, Scott all having very good 6Ns) both carrying injuries and in all honesty both not having the best of a 6Ns so most certainly not a shoe-in for the tests: so who would you have selected as Capt of the Lions.

Not trying to create an agenda where there is none, but if you compare Warbs performance in the contect of his first game, (with all the rugby world waiting for him to fall) and against probably the best side outside of the test arena then I think he had a very very good game.

Who has played better than him in the 7 jersey todate?, Tipuric certainly didn't better today, SOB has had an ok series so far, but went missing for the first try on Saturday and in such open play today didn't have a marque game did he? ditto with Tips.

The backrow competition is fierce as they are all quality players hence its always going to be unlikely that any players will be nailed on.

Like Will Carling going as the 1993 captain but got bulldozed out of the test side by Scott Gibbs even tho both could have done a job. Its not a mistake if Warburton doesn't play its just that another player had raised the mark and taken his play.

But at this moment in my mind no one has

I haven't seen the game yet, but apparently SOB was one of the standout performers. He beat 5 defenders according to the stats, making one clean break. Second behind Maitland for effective ball carrying.

Tipuric also got MOTM.