England vs Wales 9th March

by maestegmafia Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:34 pm

First topic message reminder :

Let's look towards the next game after getting ourselves back on track against France, just like last year, after the Irish put the spanner in the works.

by Scrumpy Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:56 pm

How did Gethin get MOTM btw?

He spent most of his time lying flat on his belly at scrum time from what I saw, both scrums look pretty poor IMO, who's the ref for the England wales game?

by Knowsit17 Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:01 pm

England really need Cole and Corbs to make the scrum an asset in their favour. Contrast today with the corresponding fixture in 2012 and the difference is stark. Ireland's scrum was in splinters two years ago but today they got the shove on more than once and earned more than one penalty from it. Both sides looked intent on running it though, an aggregate of 3 or 4 opted penalties really is unusual. England held on but the Irish pack looked on top for long periods. The ruck, maul, lineout, scrum, all look to have improved immensely in the short time under Schmidt.

by Guest Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:02 pm

Have you got a spare ticket Hersh? I'd love to accompany you. And I'd be willing to pay too.

by **LondonTiger** Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:06 pm

Scrumpy wrote:who's the ref for the England wales game?

Romain Poite

http://www.irb.com/mm/document/newsmedia/mediazone/02/06/98/86/131206toc6nations2014appointmentskb.pdf

by Scrumpy Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:08 pm

Griff wrote:Have you got a spare ticket Hersh? I'd love to accompany you. And I'd be willing to pay too.

I'm sure if I was hersh firstly, I would want it to be known as HERSH! Not hersh.
Secondly I'm sure I would boast about playing the game at a pro level, which I believe I have never said or referred to.

I guess us bath fans with an opinion or view that no one else likes will always be referred to as hersh, sorry HERSH! thumbsup

I only have the two tickets I'm afraid gruff.

by Scrumpy Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:10 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:who's the ref for the England wales game?

Romain Poite

http://www.irb.com/mm/document/newsmedia/mediazone/02/06/98/86/131206toc6nations2014appointmentskb.pdf

Could be worse, brand Walsh was in full flow today, god that guy loves to be the centre of attention!

by HammerofThunor Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:24 pm

Griff wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:So England just lost to France and just beat Ireland - even
Ireland battered Wales and just lost to England - ahead
Wales battered by Ireland and battered France - even
France just beat England and got battered by Wales - behind

At this point I'd say Ireland a roughly favourites but have to play France in France. Wales and England about even but England haven't put in a major performance whereas Wales have.

And then you have Italy and Scotland ready to put the boot in and spoil the lovely symmetry.

Have we? Most posters last night said wales created nothing and just took penalties gifted to them by an utterly awful France.

I thought France played about as well against Wales as they did against England. England didn't take the gifts from France and let them in. I don't think there have been any 'great' performances so far but for England I'd say they've been solid. But Wales have shown they can punish teams when the chance is there (they've also shown they're vulnerable as England did last year). I may be a pessimist but I've seen nothing special from England and thy miss too many tackles.

by **Biltong** Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:41 pm

Griff wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:Are you coming down to HQ Gruff?

No Hersh. Would love to though.

Griff, suggesting, accusing or hinting a poster is anyone ese but the name you see on his profile is against houserules. Please desist immediately.

Thanks.

by bedfordwelsh Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:44 pm

maestegmafia wrote:Team selection I wouldn't make many changes. Hopefully AWJ will be fit, though Ball impressed and Coombs was relentless as always.

Rhys Webb showed he has what it takes, North looked solid and tricky for the opposition defence. Front five went well too.

If fit AWJ will start and for me I would keep Ball alongside him as he looked really good last night then its a case of Charteris or Coombs on the bench.

I would say start P James but I know I am in the minority and will be talked down over that, plus we know it won't happen anyway.

by Guest Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:47 pm

Scrumpy wrote:
Griff wrote:Have you got a spare ticket Hersh? I'd love to accompany you. And I'd be willing to pay too.

I'm sure if I was hersh firstly, I would want it to be known as HERSH! Not hersh.
Secondly I'm sure I would boast about playing the game at a pro level, which I believe I have never said or referred to.

I guess us bath fans with an opinion or view that no one else likes will always be referred to as hersh, sorry HERSH!

I only have the two tickets I'm afraid gruff.

No probs Scumpy. Maybe next time.

by Taffineastbourne Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:50 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:England lost to that French side that Wales just stuffed.Where does the idea that they will beat Wales come from?Can't be the Press coz they haven't started their EngLand build up yet.

Feeling a bit silly now?

No.Are you?

by Guest Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:51 pm

Biltong wrote:
Griff wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:Are you coming down to HQ Gruff?

No Hersh. Would love to though.

Griff, suggesting, accusing or hinting a poster is anyone ese but the name you see on his profile is against houserules. Please desist immediately.

Thanks.

But people calling GloriousEmpire 'Greyghost' every day on every thread is fine? Consistency is the key for a trouble free site I feel.

by Knowsit17 Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:59 pm

No matter what the XV is on the day, I think the crucial factor Wales need to be focusing on is presently the basics i.e. compete at the breakdown, recycle the ball as quickly as possible etc. They executed these things to far greater effect against France than in the first two games, albeit still not to the standard we know they can produce. Against Italy support was slow as in the autumn and against Ireland they looked absolutely clueless.

Wales have developed a tendency to recede whenever they're doing well precisely by forgetting to keep these facets of the game in check. It's the foundation which is usually essential for any long term model of success. Webb may not have been terrific but his service at times was far better than Phillips' has been over the last year or so. Warbs was back to being a disruptive presence in the ruck and maul. Charteris put in a much better shift in the lineout. The scrum was a messy affair but our front row was still making the occasional impressive shove on theirs and in general held their own very well. It's these elements that are critical to meaningful possession and territory.

by Chjw131 Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:02 pm

This will be an interesting game and an interesting thread as well I should think. Let's hope for some decent discussion and respect from both sides!

So far the only change I can see coming England-wise is Billy V out. That's a big loss but Ben Morgan is an excellent replacement. I would think it quite likely Sam Dickinson will get called up and could well go onto the bench for this game.

by Guest Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:02 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:Team selection I wouldn't make many changes. Hopefully AWJ will be fit, though Ball impressed and Coombs was relentless as always.

Rhys Webb showed he has what it takes, North looked solid and tricky for the opposition defence. Front five went well too.

If fit AWJ will start and for me I would keep Ball alongside him as he looked really good last night then its a case of Charteris or Coombs on the bench.

I would say start P James but I know I am in the minority and will be talked down over that, plus we know it won't happen anyway.

I've been impressed with the little I've seen of Jake Ball. We often suffer from a lack of 'dog' in the second row. We either seem to have big lumps who are a bit timid or tough nuts who are a bit small to mix it with the big boys. I'm hoping he can kick on and be our hard man enforcer in future years. At 23 he's got plenty of time to develop. We've got some decent depth in the 2nd row when they're all fit.

Maybe it's just the beard!

by HammerofThunor Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:07 pm

Kvesic and Johnson are the two backrowers in the squad aren't they? So probably one of those. Which? No idea. Or someone new.

by Chjw131 Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:07 pm

Griff wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:Team selection I wouldn't make many changes. Hopefully AWJ will be fit, though Ball impressed and Coombs was relentless as always.

Rhys Webb showed he has what it takes, North looked solid and tricky for the opposition defence. Front five went well too.

If fit AWJ will start and for me I would keep Ball alongside him as he looked really good last night then its a case of Charteris or Coombs on the bench.

I would say start P James but I know I am in the minority and will be talked down over that, plus we know it won't happen anyway.

I've been impressed with the little I've seen of Jake Ball. We often suffer from a lack of 'dog' in the second row. We either seem to have big lumps who are a bit timid or tough nuts who are a bit small to mix it with the big boys. I'm hoping he can kick on and be our hard man enforcer in future years. At 23 he's got plenty of time to develop. We've got some decent depth in the 2nd row when they're all fit.

Maybe it's just the beard!

I agree he looked good v France, got plenty of time to develop into a high quality SR. Nice to see another Englishman doing well in Wales Run

by Chjw131 Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:09 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Kvesic and Johnson are the two backrowers in the squad aren't they? So probably one of those. Which? No idea. Or someone new.

They are, but as I said Dickinson will likely get the call up to the squad. The only reason I see him leap-frogging is because he offers another carrying option at 8 which neither Jonson nor Kvesic do that well. It means we have the same format as the Billy V/Morgan system. Also means Morgs doesn't have to play 80 against Wales.

by **Biltong** Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:10 pm

Griff wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Griff wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:Are you coming down to HQ Gruff?

No Hersh. Would love to though.

Griff, suggesting, accusing or hinting a poster is anyone ese but the name you see on his profile is against houserules. Please desist immediately.

Thanks.

But people calling GloriousEmpire 'Greyghost' every day on every thread is fine? Consistency is the key for a trouble free site I feel.

If it is reported we act on it, unfortunately we can't read every post. Wink

by bedfordwelsh Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:24 pm

Chjw131 wrote:
Griff wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:Team selection I wouldn't make many changes. Hopefully AWJ will be fit, though Ball impressed and Coombs was relentless as always.

Rhys Webb showed he has what it takes, North looked solid and tricky for the opposition defence. Front five went well too.

If fit AWJ will start and for me I would keep Ball alongside him as he looked really good last night then its a case of Charteris or Coombs on the bench.

I would say start P James but I know I am in the minority and will be talked down over that, plus we know it won't happen anyway.

I've been impressed with the little I've seen of Jake Ball. We often suffer from a lack of 'dog' in the second row. We either seem to have big lumps who are a bit timid or tough nuts who are a bit small to mix it with the big boys. I'm hoping he can kick on and be our hard man enforcer in future years. At 23 he's got plenty of time to develop. We've got some decent depth in the 2nd row when they're all fit.

Maybe it's just the beard!

I agree he looked good v France, got plenty of time to develop into a high quality SR. Nice to see another Englishman doing well in Wales

I thought he was Australian

by Chjw131 Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:29 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
Chjw131 wrote:
Griff wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:Team selection I wouldn't make many changes. Hopefully AWJ will be fit, though Ball impressed and Coombs was relentless as always.

Rhys Webb showed he has what it takes, North looked solid and tricky for the opposition defence. Front five went well too.

If fit AWJ will start and for me I would keep Ball alongside him as he looked really good last night then its a case of Charteris or Coombs on the bench.

I would say start P James but I know I am in the minority and will be talked down over that, plus we know it won't happen anyway.

I've been impressed with the little I've seen of Jake Ball. We often suffer from a lack of 'dog' in the second row. We either seem to have big lumps who are a bit timid or tough nuts who are a bit small to mix it with the big boys. I'm hoping he can kick on and be our hard man enforcer in future years. At 23 he's got plenty of time to develop. We've got some decent depth in the 2nd row when they're all fit.

Maybe it's just the beard!

I agree he looked good v France, got plenty of time to develop into a high quality SR. Nice to see another Englishman doing well in Wales

I thought he was Australian

From Berkshire. Ascot.

by bedfordwelsh Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:43 pm

Ah right, so where did I get the Aussie connection then?

by Chjw131 Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:44 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:Ah right, so where did I get the Aussie connection then?

Went to OZ when he was 17 apparently.

by bedfordwelsh Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:17 pm

Cheers, knew have read he had Oz connections somewhere.

As for the game its a shame if Billy V is out as was looking forward to the cousins going head to head at No8.

by Guest Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:43 pm

Yeah it would be a shame Bedford.

I think AWJ will be back in, Ball to the bench and Coombs out the 23 again. Other than that, maybe no changes bar maybe (knowing Gatland), Davies on the bench (if fit) and Biggar out of the 23.

by bedfordwelsh Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:48 pm

If JD was in then yeah it would be at expense of Biggar, I would be tempted tp drop Charteris to bench, Ball impressed me last night.

by Knowsit17 Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:51 pm

Thought both locks stood up quite well last night which is a promising sign given it wasn't the first choice pairing. Charteris was handier in the lineout than he has been in a while and Ball did well under the high ball. Exactly what we need going forward, a competitive reception for the likes of AWJ, Davies and Evans when they return.

by maestegmafia Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:55 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:If JD was in then yeah it would be at expense of Biggar, I would be tempted tp drop Charteris to bench, Ball impressed me last night.

Charteris was superb last night. I wouldn't drop him.

by bedfordwelsh Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:55 pm

knowsit,

You say not 1st choice but Charteris was for long while, I think the only 1st choice one we have is AWJ. Charteirs, Evans and Davies are level pegging.

by Knowsit17 Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:20 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:knowsit,

You say not 1st choice but Charteris was for long while, I think the only 1st choice one we have is AWJ. Charteirs, Evans and Davies are level pegging.

You're correct, he was first choice back in 2011 and deservedly so. Injury and the move to Perpignan have done him no favours since. Last night was the first time in ages he's played close to the standard we know he's capable of and if he can keep it up I have no issue with him regularly being in contention for a starting spot.

Neither were first choice going into the tournament really.

AWJ's absence was heralded as a blow but notably the lock pairing functioned very well without him. It's interesting how he's normally one of the first names on the teamsheet nowadays and people praise his leadership but tbh I don't think Alun has been that impressive since the Lions. He's in danger of becoming a figure of complacency based on rep. Competition for places needs to be rife for things to improve and players need to be called out when they could be doing better. I feel yesterday was only a microcosm of the changes in attitude that need to be effected. The players were challenged, told they played crap in Dublin and did what was necessary as a result. That has to continue imo.

by king_carlos Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:52 pm

Knowsit17 wrote:England really need Cole and Corbs to make the scrum an asset in their favour. Contrast today with the corresponding fixture in 2012 and the difference is stark. Ireland's scrum was in splinters two years ago but today they got the shove on more than once and earned more than one penalty from it. Both sides looked intent on running it though, an aggregate of 3 or 4 opted penalties really is unusual. England held on but the Irish pack looked on top for long periods. The ruck, maul, lineout, scrum, all look to have improved immensely in the short time under Schmidt.

No doubt that Corbs is our best scrummager at LH. At full fitness I wouldn't say there's a huge amount between Cole and Wilson but given the latters recent return from injury he wasn't at his best. At the same time though credit should be given to Ireland given that since 2012 Healy's scrummaging has come on really well plus they have now got much better depth with McGrath and Moore on the bench.

- Thomas looked more solid than many expected when he came on.
- Marler has benefited very well from the rule changes and has looked increasingly good at scrum time all season.
- Mako has struggled at times but is very young and constantly improving. He is in no means a liability at the moment

Decent resources with the majority very young for any position and Cole/Wilson still a few years from what should be their prime as props.

by Guest Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:07 pm

Knowsit17 wrote:Thought both locks stood up quite well last night which is a promising sign given it wasn't the first choice pairing. Charteris was handier in the lineout than he has been in a while and Ball did well under the high ball. Exactly what we need going forward, a competitive reception for the likes of AWJ, Davies and Evans when they return.

Think we tend to use long dog as a dummy more in lineouts normally.

by Scrumpy Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:54 am

It's a shame we have to wait for this game bring them on today we'll smash them just like Ireland.

by mystiroakey Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:57 am

Ok NOW we can talk about it.

Its going to be a cracker..

Luckily Wales scrum is much worse than Irelands..That almost killed us v Ireland.. So without that advantage we wont get Sh!t scared everytime a scrum happens..

by sickofwendy Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:58 am

If Billy vunipola is out will Lancaster call up Clark?

by Guest Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:57 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Ok NOW we can talk about it.

Its going to be a cracker..

Luckily Wales scrum is much worse than Irelands..That almost killed us v Ireland.. So without that advantage we wont get Sh!t scared everytime a scrum happens..

Think Jenkins/James and Adam Jones will still not fear facing Marler/Vunipola (again) and the fat lump on your tighthead, no matter what problems our scrum is apparently facing.

by The Saint Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:01 pm

What problems... Headscratch

by mystiroakey Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:04 pm

Risca Rev wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:Ok NOW we can talk about it.

Its going to be a cracker..

Luckily Wales scrum is much worse than Irelands..That almost killed us v Ireland.. So without that advantage we wont get Sh!t scared everytime a scrum happens..

Think Jenkins/James and Adam Jones will still not fear facing Marler/Vunipola (again) and the fat lump on your tighthead, no matter what problems our scrum is apparently facing.

yes but at the same time we wont be afraid of Wales either.

It will be an open game I feel.. and a cracking one at that. Wales will believe they can play a brand of rugby against us, and we will have the same belief

by Taffineastbourne Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:10 pm

Well,I shall be at HQ for this one courtesy of a competition run by a German car manufacturer who uses three letters as their company name.
Hope that it matches yesterday's game for excitement and that the right team wins!

by The Saint Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:14 pm

Marler and Vunipola are awful scrummagers. The last Wales game shows that our front row is still the most dominant one in this tournament. England with Corbs and Cole would be handy, but I'm not actually sure if they've played many tests together? I seem to remember them also being driven back by the Wales scrum in the 2012 encounter too.

by englandglory4ever Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:06 pm

The Welsh game was dire in terms of clean scrummaging. They seemed intent on bringing every scrum to the floor on engagement. The England v Ireland game was a breath of fresh air in comparison. Both sides clearly trying to keep the scrums up. There will be no doubt about who is responsible for bringing them down if it happens.

by Chjw131 Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:08 pm

sickofwendy wrote:If Billy vunipola is out will Lancaster call up Clark?

Ha, probably! Dickinson has to come straight in if you ask me. He'll be a like for like replacement for Morgan on the bench.

by The Saint Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:10 pm

Yeah of course. Wales won, so time to hop on board with the anti-welsh consensus and call them cheats. I seem to remember Wales driving this much vaunted French scrum back on a number of occasions, I expect the same to happen against England's reserve front-row. Look forward to the ref blaming afterwards

.

by Chjw131 Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:27 pm

The Saint wrote:Yeah of course. Wales won, so time to hop on board with the anti-welsh consensus and call them cheats. I seem to remember Wales driving this much vaunted French scrum back on a number of occasions, I expect the same to happen against England's reserve front-row. Look forward to the ref blaming afterwards .

What's with these sorts of comments? The England/Ireland thread has been, what I consider to be an excellent example of good natured debate. Why is it always these threads that descend into mud slinging and pettiness? It puts most reasonable posters off.

In that vein, Wales did get the upper hand on France's scrum towards the end of that game but it was a contest that saw a huge amount of re-set scrums. Be that the pitch, teams or both.

The Ireland game will have done Wilson a power of good and he's by no means an inferior scrummager to Cole. Marler is solid without being destructive and without Corbisiero I don't think this England unit will be the dominant, penalty clinching scrum of yore.

It's possible though that we might see an adjustment in the pack, particularly if someone like Johnson or Kvesic come onto the bench in place of Morgan. It's possible we could see this heavier pack against the Welsh:

1. J Marler
2. D Hartley
3. D Wilson
4. D Attwood
5. C Lawes
6. J Launchbury
7. C Robshaw
8. B Morgan

19. T Wood 20. M Kvesic

That may go some way to bolster the scrum and allow us to open up the game later on with the likes of Wood and Kvesic coming in.

by HammerofThunor Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:30 pm

The Saint always says this sort of stuff. The Saint behaves as though he has a massive chip on his shoulder as the Saint knows these comments get the most attention. And the Saint loves attention, but the Saint is not as petulant and silly as the Saint pretends.

by sickofwendy Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:31 pm

Rotherham to 6nations in less than 2 years would be very impressive,more so when you factor in his injury setback.

by Chjw131 Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:35 pm

sickofwendy wrote:Rotherham to 6nations in less than 2 years would be very impressive,more so when you factor in his injury setback.

Absolutely but having seen him for the Saxons etc.. he doesn't seem phased. He'd provide some impact and I'd back him to make an impact in the final 20.

by sickofwendy Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:40 pm

Too risky to start launchbury at 6.scrum will be stronger against Wales as Wilson will be sharper.this is not the match for experimentation.Dickinson would be perfect for the bench,he seems to want it more than others.

by Chjw131 Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:44 pm

sickofwendy wrote:Too risky to start launchbury at 6.scrum will be stronger against Wales as Wilson will be sharper.this is not the match for experimentation.Dickinson would be perfect for the bench,he seems to want it more than others.

He has played plenty of 6 and obviously finished the match there against Ireland. I agree it's more of a risk than continuing with Wood but it might help to turn the scrum into a weapon and deal with Wales' power runners. Just an idea.

What about Slater coming onto the bench. He's played lock 8 and 6 for Tigers. He was an 8 before converting to lock.

by Taffineastbourne Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:55 pm

englandglory4ever wrote:The Welsh game was dire in terms of clean scrummaging. They seemed intent on bringing every scrum to the floor on engagement. The England v Ireland game was a breath of fresh air in comparison. Both sides clearly trying to keep the scrums up. There will be no doubt about who is responsible for bringing them down if it happens.

How do you work that out?seems a bit oversimplified to me!

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