How high should Jeffries rank in top ten lists?

by Mind the windows Tino. Fri 20 May 2011, 9:08 am

First topic message reminder :

How high do people think The Boilermaker should rank when assessing top ten heavyweights (if indeed you think he belongs in the top ten). He is a nailed on top five for me, in fact I had him at number 3 the last time I tried to make a list but he tends to drift between 3 - 5 but never lower.

Completely dominated his era, only losing to a fellow ATG in Jack Johnson, and this after Jeffries had grown fat and happy on his farm in retirement. Maybe Johnson had Jeffries number anyway but I think it is fair to say big Jim was clearly way past his best in 1910.

Great record, with stellar wins over Corbett x 2, Fitzsimmons x 2, and notable wins over Sharkey x 2 and Peter Jackson. He was a fabulously conditioned fighter with a terrific punch and a rock solid chin. His technique was perfectly adapted for the style of fighting at the time where physical strength, of which Jeffries reportedly had no equal, was a must. He became a much better "boxer" as his career progressed and had genuine power in both hands. All this, allied to his murderous training regime and will to win made Jeffries a formidible foe for anyone

I appreciate it is always difficult to compare one era to another, but in terms of record, dominance of an era and skills required to suceed in that era, Jeffries must be a top fiver at least?

by Mind the windows Tino. Fri 20 May 2011, 3:10 pm

[quote="J.Benson II"]

azania wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
azania wrote:Absolutely not windy. I found it incredulous. IMO to mention that a boxer of the calibre of Lewis would have trouble with someone with basic skills id ridiculous. Their skills were basic because of when they were fighting.

Az, but when do peoples chins become better? It has been mentioned by a few posters that Jeff had a supreme ability to take puishment and come back fighting. Now whether this shows a lack of fundamental defense or not, he still had enourmous reserves of strength, and I reiterate, why is Lewis's punching power guaranteed to take Jeff out. Even if we agree that Lewis throws some perfectly executed combinations (taught by a modern trainer of course) then there is still absolutely no way we can assume that Jeff is taken out. He has proven his durability time and time again, poor defense or not. If he doesn't take him out, then over 25 rounds, Jeffries at least has a chance, no?

For what it is worth, I have Lennox as a top tenner so this is no reflection on him as a fighter, I just feel he is as vulnerable as anyone else to Jeffries pressure, power and stamina. I guess we are never going to agree, but I still can't get my head round the fact you think it would be a massacre.

Lewis is a full blown HW. A huge HW at that. Jeffs fought small HW and MW. The reason he proved his durability was because he took punishment. If Lewis dished out that punishment, he would be out.

hin doesn't improve per se again. Your fitness increases your recuperative powers. But if hit hard enough, you could have a pulse rate of 10 per minute, it doesn't matter. The will of a spartan etc etc etc.

For what its worth, I dont have Lewis as a top 10 HW.

Interestingly, ESPN Classic were showing one of Lewis' fights a few weeks back. It was against that mohawked Croatian Zeljko Mavrovic. A limited, Europeon level fighter that was roughly the same size as Jeffries (possibly even smaller). It was a pretty dull fight but it was worth noting that Lewis failed to KO or even deck Mavrovic despite landing numerous heavy blows and the fight ended up going the full 12 rounds.
Therefore, while the chance of Lewis KO'ing Jeff in a fantasy match-up is possible, its by no means a certainty.

Remember it well J Benson, and thanks for the reasoned response. I can't remember the round but Lewis caught Mavrovic with a left/right combo flush on Mavrovic's chin. I can clearly remember at the time that I was staggered that he stayed on his feet and showed little ill effect. And no Az, I am not saying Lewis can't punch, purely an observation on J Benson's post!

Obviously, I agree with your sentiment and that is my point to Az and D4. In my opinion, you categorically can't say that Lewis or any other modern heavyweight would "massacre" Jeffries.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 3:11 pm

Oh come on. Foreman is considered one of the biggest punchers ever. He couldn't KO all his opponents. It means nothing. Bowe managed to put Holy away, Cooper managed to put him on queer street. So because Lewis couldn't do it over 24 rounds it means that Lewis couldn't put Jeffs away.

Jeffs didn't have the complete set of skills or near to what modern boxers have and take for granted. It just wouldn't go past 3. Jeffs would be lucky to have his head still onhis shoulders with Lewis or any other mediocre boxer today.

Its not thatJeffs was poor. He wasnt/ He just was not taught the skills that todays guys have.

Queue some bod to mention th elist of fat HW today (they too would beat jeffs just to nail that argument).

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 3:12 pm

Tino

Anything can happen in HW boxing. Look at Foreman's historical lottery punch against Moorer.

Sh!t happens when the big guys square up. But Jeffs would be at a disadvantage. It would be like a gcse student being on Uni Challende against phd syudents.

by jimdig Fri 20 May 2011, 3:21 pm

Firstly I'd have Jefferies in the top 10. I think it's a completely seperate issue to rating how Lewis would do against him.
Much the same as we don't compare joe v lennox. Era's are taking in their own standing.

Jeffries bunker style was perfectly suited to 25 round boxing in 35+degree heat.
The facts are he had explosive power, could endure massive punishment, chin and heart not to be questioned, And two very important points, 1) he was head and shoulders above those in his era, and 2) was a bit of a freak in terms height, speed, power compared to the average man (other heavyweights) at the turn of the century.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 3:23 pm

jimdig wrote:Firstly I'd have Jefferies in the top 10. I think it's a completely seperate issue to rating how Lewis would do against him.
Much the same as we don't compare joe v lennox. Era's are taking in their own standing.

Jeffries bunker style was perfectly suited to 25 round boxing in 35+degree heat.
The facts are he had explosive power, could endure massive punishment, chin and heart not to be questioned, And two very important points, 1) he was head and shoulders above those in his era, and 2) was a bit of a freak in terms height, speed, power compared to the average man (other heavyweights) at the turn of the century.

Great post . Agreed 100%.

by Mind the windows Tino. Fri 20 May 2011, 3:25 pm

azania wrote:Tino

Anything can happen in HW boxing. Look at Foreman's historical lottery punch against Moorer.

Sh!t happens when the big guys square up. But Jeffs would be at a disadvantage. It would be like a gcse student being on Uni Challende against phd syudents.

Your not wrong there Az......so surely it is possible for Jeff to withstand a modern heavyweight and land a big shot himself?

by **HumanWindmill** Fri 20 May 2011, 3:26 pm

I just took a screen shot of your agreeing, az. My wife is busily printing it out and I'm toddling off to the hardware shop to buy a nice frame for it.

I am also e - mailing it to the body who decide which are the modern wonders of the world. You might be famous, by Sundown.

by Mind the windows Tino. Fri 20 May 2011, 3:27 pm

jimdig wrote:Firstly I'd have Jefferies in the top 10. I think it's a completely seperate issue to rating how Lewis would do against him.
Much the same as we don't compare joe v lennox. Era's are taking in their own standing.

Jeffries bunker style was perfectly suited to 25 round boxing in 35+degree heat.
The facts are he had explosive power, could endure massive punishment, chin and heart not to be questioned, And two very important points, 1) he was head and shoulders above those in his era, and 2) was a bit of a freak in terms height, speed, power compared to the average man (other heavyweights) at the turn of the century.

Agreed Jimdig and thanks for the response.

To everyone who contributed to my first ever thread, I extend my thanks. I am going home now but will try and log on later and see how it finished up.

Cheers,
MTWT

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 3:30 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:I just took a screen shot of your agreeing, az. My wife is busily printing it out and I'm toddling off to the hardware shop to buy a nice frame for it.

I am also e - mailing it to the body who decide which are the modern wonders of the world. You might be famous, by Sundown.

Miracles do happen. First Moses, now this. angel

Take it easy though. You may injure yourself. What with you having ringside seats in the Jeffries/Johnson fight and all. Careful old chap. Take your vitamins and protein shakes. Modern diets can slow the aging process. But if there's something to improve my spelling tell me.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 3:30 pm

Tino, I'll tell you how it finished up. All agree with me.......again. Either that or they decide to agree just to shut me up. Very Happy

Cheers.

by Scottrf Fri 20 May 2011, 3:31 pm

azania wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:I just took a screen shot of your agreeing, az. My wife is busily printing it out and I'm toddling off to the hardware shop to buy a nice frame for it.

I am also e - mailing it to the body who decide which are the modern wonders of the world. You might be famous, by Sundown.

Miracles do happen. First Moses, now this.

Take it easy though. You may injure yourself. What with you having ringside seats in the Jeffries/Johnson fight and all. Careful old chap. Take your vitamins and protein shakes. Modern diets can slow the aging process. But if there's something to improve my spelling tell me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School

by **HumanWindmill** Fri 20 May 2011, 3:32 pm

Any slowing of my aging process, by whatever means, is undone by debating boxing history with you, az.

My dear wife is going to register here just to kick your backside.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 3:37 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:Any slowing of my aging process, by whatever means, is undone by debating boxing history with you, az.

My dear wife is going to register here just to kick your backside.

I welcome the lovely Mrs Windy (that doesn't sound right) here. I have no doubt that she will improve the standard of the board and naturally agree with me. She told me once that you were not the same man you once were. Shocked

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 3:38 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
azania wrote:Tino

Anything can happen in HW boxing. Look at Foreman's historical lottery punch against Moorer.

Sh!t happens when the big guys square up. But Jeffs would be at a disadvantage. It would be like a gcse student being on Uni Challende against phd syudents.

Your not wrong there Az......so surely it is possible for Jeff to withstand a modern heavyweight and land a big shot himself?

It is possible but highly unlikely that he would survive what comes his way.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 3:39 pm

Scottrf wrote:
azania wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:I just took a screen shot of your agreeing, az. My wife is busily printing it out and I'm toddling off to the hardware shop to buy a nice frame for it.

I am also e - mailing it to the body who decide which are the modern wonders of the world. You might be famous, by Sundown.

Miracles do happen. First Moses, now this.

Take it easy though. You may injure yourself. What with you having ringside seats in the Jeffries/Johnson fight and all. Careful old chap. Take your vitamins and protein shakes. Modern diets can slow the aging process. But if there's something to improve my spelling tell me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School

Cheers Scott. Much appreciated furious

by **HumanWindmill** Fri 20 May 2011, 3:44 pm

azania wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:Any slowing of my aging process, by whatever means, is undone by debating boxing history with you, az.

My dear wife is going to register here just to kick your backside.

I welcome the lovely Mrs Windy (that doesn't sound right) here. I have no doubt that she will improve the standard of the board and naturally agree with me. She told me once that you were not the same man you once were.

You should be able to tell her, your being the history expert, and all. The fact that you've never seen me and she has shouldn't deter you.

You've never seen half the fighters you trash, either.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 3:52 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:Any slowing of my aging process, by whatever means, is undone by debating boxing history with you, az.

My dear wife is going to register here just to kick your backside.

I welcome the lovely Mrs Windy (that doesn't sound right) here. I have no doubt that she will improve the standard of the board and naturally agree with me. She told me once that you were not the same man you once were.

You should be able to tell her, your being the history expert, and all. The fact that you've never seen me and she has shouldn't deter you.

You've never seen half the fighters you trash, either.

I have never trashed another fighter. Well none except the plodding oaf that was Rocky M.

by Mind the windows Tino. Fri 20 May 2011, 3:55 pm

azania wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:Any slowing of my aging process, by whatever means, is undone by debating boxing history with you, az.

My dear wife is going to register here just to kick your backside.

I welcome the lovely Mrs Windy (that doesn't sound right) here. I have no doubt that she will improve the standard of the board and naturally agree with me. She told me once that you were not the same man you once were.

You should be able to tell her, your being the history expert, and all. The fact that you've never seen me and she has shouldn't deter you.

You've never seen half the fighters you trash, either.

I have never trashed another fighter. Well none except the plodding oaf that was Rocky M.

Would Rocky beat Jeffries?

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 3:59 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
azania wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:Any slowing of my aging process, by whatever means, is undone by debating boxing history with you, az.

My dear wife is going to register here just to kick your backside.

I welcome the lovely Mrs Windy (that doesn't sound right) here. I have no doubt that she will improve the standard of the board and naturally agree with me. She told me once that you were not the same man you once were.

You should be able to tell her, your being the history expert, and all. The fact that you've never seen me and she has shouldn't deter you.

You've never seen half the fighters you trash, either.

I have never trashed another fighter. Well none except the plodding oaf that was Rocky M.

Would Rocky beat Jeffries?

Rocky

by **HumanWindmill** Fri 20 May 2011, 4:01 pm

azania wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
azania wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:Any slowing of my aging process, by whatever means, is undone by debating boxing history with you, az.

My dear wife is going to register here just to kick your backside.

I welcome the lovely Mrs Windy (that doesn't sound right) here. I have no doubt that she will improve the standard of the board and naturally agree with me. She told me once that you were not the same man you once were.

You should be able to tell her, your being the history expert, and all. The fact that you've never seen me and she has shouldn't deter you.

You've never seen half the fighters you trash, either.

I have never trashed another fighter. Well none except the plodding oaf that was Rocky M.

Would Rocky beat Jeffries?

Rocky

You should write all your posts with that sized font. They make considerably more sense to the casual observer, that way.

by Imperial Ghosty Fri 20 May 2011, 5:15 pm

This is so god damm boring now

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 6:40 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
azania wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:Any slowing of my aging process, by whatever means, is undone by debating boxing history with you, az.

My dear wife is going to register here just to kick your backside.

I welcome the lovely Mrs Windy (that doesn't sound right) here. I have no doubt that she will improve the standard of the board and naturally agree with me. She told me once that you were not the same man you once were.

You should be able to tell her, your being the history expert, and all. The fact that you've never seen me and she has shouldn't deter you.

You've never seen half the fighters you trash, either.

I have never trashed another fighter. Well none except the plodding oaf that was Rocky M.

Would Rocky beat Jeffries?

Rocky

You should write all your posts with that sized font. They make considerably more sense to the casual observer, that way.

I try to windy, believe me. But given your age and fading eyesight I thought this would be more apt

by **HumanWindmill** Fri 20 May 2011, 6:48 pm

You still here ?

Thought you'd popped off to youtube to watch Chris Arreola's highlight reel.

by Rowley Fri 20 May 2011, 7:08 pm

Under normal circumstances I would be gutted being on the dullest course imaginable would have kept me off the forum all afternoon but seeing how this one has degenerated maybe a good thing.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 7:09 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:You still here ?

Thought you'd popped off to youtube to watch Chris Arreola's highlight reel.

Windy, for some strange reason I look forward to reading your posts. The wonderful praise and love you have for me. Its too much. Very Happy

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 7:10 pm

rowley wrote:Under normal circumstances I would be gutted being on the dullest course imaginable would have kept me off the forum all afternoon but seeing how this one has degenerated maybe a good thing.

Oh come on rowley. You know you miss it really. And y'all know that I'm correct but are too stubborn to agree with me.

by **HumanWindmill** Fri 20 May 2011, 7:12 pm

azania wrote:
rowley wrote:Under normal circumstances I would be gutted being on the dullest course imaginable would have kept me off the forum all afternoon but seeing how this one has degenerated maybe a good thing.

Oh come on rowley. You know you miss it really. And y'all know that I'm correct but are too stubborn to agree with me.

As I said yesterday, az, even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.

by Rowley Fri 20 May 2011, 7:14 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:
rowley wrote:Under normal circumstances I would be gutted being on the dullest course imaginable would have kept me off the forum all afternoon but seeing how this one has degenerated maybe a good thing.

Oh come on rowley. You know you miss it really. And y'all know that I'm correct but are too stubborn to agree with me.

As I said yesterday, az, even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.

Which gives it an infinitely better record than Az bless him

by **HumanWindmill** Fri 20 May 2011, 7:20 pm

rowley wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:
rowley wrote:Under normal circumstances I would be gutted being on the dullest course imaginable would have kept me off the forum all afternoon but seeing how this one has degenerated maybe a good thing.

Oh come on rowley. You know you miss it really. And y'all know that I'm correct but are too stubborn to agree with me.

As I said yesterday, az, even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.

Which gives it an infinitely better record than Az bless him

A clock differs also, jeff, in that it does not do the winding up.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 7:21 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:
rowley wrote:Under normal circumstances I would be gutted being on the dullest course imaginable would have kept me off the forum all afternoon but seeing how this one has degenerated maybe a good thing.

Oh come on rowley. You know you miss it really. And y'all know that I'm correct but are too stubborn to agree with me.

As I said yesterday, az, even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.

Let it go windy. Just admit it young man. You know I'm right. If anyone else was saying what I have said, you all would have agreed.....eventually. You just love to argue with me. I'm cool with that. Whistle

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 7:22 pm

rowley wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:
rowley wrote:Under normal circumstances I would be gutted being on the dullest course imaginable would have kept me off the forum all afternoon but seeing how this one has degenerated maybe a good thing.

Oh come on rowley. You know you miss it really. And y'all know that I'm correct but are too stubborn to agree with me.

As I said yesterday, az, even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.

Which gives it an infinitely better record than Az bless him

You guys are funny. Eventually you will come to my way of thinking Hug

by **HumanWindmill** Fri 20 May 2011, 7:49 pm

azania wrote:
rowley wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:
rowley wrote:Under normal circumstances I would be gutted being on the dullest course imaginable would have kept me off the forum all afternoon but seeing how this one has degenerated maybe a good thing.

Oh come on rowley. You know you miss it really. And y'all know that I'm correct but are too stubborn to agree with me.

As I said yesterday, az, even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.

Which gives it an infinitely better record than Az bless him

You guys are funny. Eventually you will come to my way of thinking

And Elton John will eventually be straight.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 7:55 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:
rowley wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:
rowley wrote:Under normal circumstances I would be gutted being on the dullest course imaginable would have kept me off the forum all afternoon but seeing how this one has degenerated maybe a good thing.

Oh come on rowley. You know you miss it really. And y'all know that I'm correct but are too stubborn to agree with me.

As I said yesterday, az, even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.

Which gives it an infinitely better record than Az bless him

You guys are funny. Eventually you will come to my way of thinking

And Elton John will eventually be straight.

by J.Benson II Fri 20 May 2011, 8:54 pm

azania -

There are two main reasons why I felt the Lewis-Mavrovic fight is relevant to this discussion.

Firstly, as you had pointed out, Lewis was a massive HW and is seen by most to be the best of the huge modern heavies. Mavrovic, in comparison, was a smallish HW. In fact, against Lewis, he weighed in at several pounds lighter than a peak Jeffries.

Secondly, you point out Jeffries lack of technical skill. Well, Mavrovic was a standard, upright fighter with a modest skill set. His defence was basic. He lacked head movement, reflexes, ability to slip jabs/punches, feints, counter-punching skills etc.
In essence, Lewis (a big, hard-hitting, skilled HW) was fighting a lesser skilled, smaller HW that lacked any great technical or defensive talent.
With all this in mind, this fight should have been a routine, early KO victory for Lewis.
Instead, not only did the fight go the distance, but during no period of the fight did a stoppage look likely.

Mavrovic just kept coming foward while absorbing the punishment that Lewis was dishing out.

After the fight, Lewis claimed that it was the hardest fight of his career due to the intensity the Croatian caused just by his sheer toughness.

With this fight in mind, what make you so certain that Lewis would have easily blown away Jeffries, a man considered by many experts to be the toughest and most durable HW to ever grace the ring?

For the record, I would fancy the best recent HW's to have beaten Jeff in a 12 round contest.......but with all things considered, the wins would most probably come via UD, as opposed to knockout.

However, 12 rounds puts Jeffries at a disadvantage. For him, a 12 round battle would the modern equivalent to a Prizefighter contest.

25 rounds was his forte.....and in a 25 round fight, no HW over the last several decades would stand much, if any chance against The Boilermaker.

by Mind the windows Tino. Fri 20 May 2011, 9:59 pm

J.Benson II wrote:azania -

There are two main reasons why I felt the Lewis-Mavrovic fight is relevant to this discussion.

Firstly, as you had pointed out, Lewis was a massive HW and is seen by most to be the best of the huge modern heavies. Mavrovic, in comparison, was a smallish HW. In fact, against Lewis, he weighed in at several pounds lighter than a peak Jeffries.

Secondly, you point out Jeffries lack of technical skill. Well, Mavrovic was a standard, upright fighter with a modest skill set. His defence was basic. He lacked head movement, reflexes, ability to slip jabs/punches, feints, counter-punching skills etc.
In essence, Lewis (a big, hard-hitting, skilled HW) was fighting a lesser skilled, smaller HW that lacked any great technical or defensive talent.
With all this in mind, this fight should have been a routine, early KO victory for Lewis.
Instead, not only did the fight go the distance, but during no period of the fight did a stoppage look likely.

Mavrovic just kept coming foward while absorbing the punishment that Lewis was dishing out.

After the fight, Lewis claimed that it was the hardest fight of his career due to the intensity the Croatian caused just by his sheer toughness.

With this fight in mind, what make you so certain that Lewis would have easily blown away Jeffries, a man considered by many experts to be the toughest and most durable HW to ever grace the ring?

For the record, I would fancy the best recent HW's to have beaten Jeff in a 12 round contest.......but with all things considered, the wins would most probably come via UD, as opposed to knockout.

However, 12 rounds puts Jeffries at a disadvantage. For him, a 12 round battle would the modern equivalent to a Prizefighter contest.

25 rounds was his forte.....and in a 25 round fight, no HW over the last several decades would stand much, if any chance against The Boilermaker.

What a great post J Benson. Not much I can add apart from to say thanks to you, Windy, Rowley, Captain and others for fighting Jeffries corner against Az and D4's borderline obsessive dismissal of a phenomenally great fighter.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 10:50 pm

J.Benson II wrote:azania -

There are two main reasons why I felt the Lewis-Mavrovic fight is relevant to this discussion.

Firstly, as you had pointed out, Lewis was a massive HW and is seen by most to be the best of the huge modern heavies. Mavrovic, in comparison, was a smallish HW. In fact, against Lewis, he weighed in at several pounds lighter than a peak Jeffries.

Secondly, you point out Jeffries lack of technical skill. Well, Mavrovic was a standard, upright fighter with a modest skill set. His defence was basic. He lacked head movement, reflexes, ability to slip jabs/punches, feints, counter-punching skills etc.
In essence, Lewis (a big, hard-hitting, skilled HW) was fighting a lesser skilled, smaller HW that lacked any great technical or defensive talent.
With all this in mind, this fight should have been a routine, early KO victory for Lewis.
Instead, not only did the fight go the distance, but during no period of the fight did a stoppage look likely.

Mavrovic just kept coming foward while absorbing the punishment that Lewis was dishing out.

After the fight, Lewis claimed that it was the hardest fight of his career due to the intensity the Croatian caused just by his sheer toughness.

With this fight in mind, what make you so certain that Lewis would have easily blown away Jeffries, a man considered by many experts to be the toughest and most durable HW to ever grace the ring?

For the record, I would fancy the best recent HW's to have beaten Jeff in a 12 round contest.......but with all things considered, the wins would most probably come via UD, as opposed to knockout.

However, 12 rounds puts Jeffries at a disadvantage. For him, a 12 round battle would the modern equivalent to a Prizefighter contest.

25 rounds was his forte.....and in a 25 round fight, no HW over the last several decades would stand much, if any chance against The Boilermaker.

Bl**dy hell. Just when I thought it was safe I get dragged back in.

I remember that fight. The craot weighed in something like 225lbs. He took a beating for 12 rounds and did nothing much afterwards. Its not every boxer Lewis can KO. He took some very good shots. But I dont think he took Lewis's best shots. I always take what boxers say after fights with a pinch of salt. They always big up the vanquished for sporting reasons and to make their performance look and sound better.

If the fight with Jeffs were to happen over 25 rounds I would still back Lewis without hesitation. Lewis was just too skilled and far stronger than Jeffs. The upright style Jeffs employed was not fully developed and Lewis would set him up with jabs and then the over-hand right to drop him and keep him there. Lewis probably got a little gun shy after McCAll so he would be weary of Jeff#s power. In that case it will go to 5 rounds before a sympathetic ref pulls Jeff out.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 10:51 pm

Tino I am not being dismssive. I am putting things in context. Different eras completely. Jeffs came from an era where he was great but where boxing skills were still being taught and learnt.

by **88Chris05** Fri 20 May 2011, 10:57 pm

Damn it! Wish I'd not been away for a day or two and got in on this earlier! Not going to read through what everyone put since my comment, in the grand scheme of the debate, is proberly irrelevant now anyway.

I currently have Jeffries at number five in my Heavyweight list, having recently just edged ahead of Lewis and Foreman, who I used to have in front of him by a whisker. Obviously 'The Boilermaker' doesn't rank all that highly on technical ability but while a few could out-skill him for a while (Fitzsimmons leading by a mile before the knockout being a prime example, Corbet another one) nobody, including those two, could out-last or over-power him. I'd be willing to wager that he hit just as hard as any Heavyweight to also feature on my list, too, Foreman and perhaps Dempsey aside.

His level of competition sets him apart from most; Ruhlin and Choynski half a dozen or so fights in, Corbett, Fitzsimmons and Sharkey during his title reign and, crucially, Jeffries is the only other Heavyweight in my reckoning along with Ali and Marciano who can, categorically and one hundred percent, say that they weren't beaten in their prime and at the peak of their powers.

I'm sure most of what I said has already been covered in some capacity during this thread, but that's my take on the man who, for me, is the fifth greatest Heavyweight of them all. Wonderful fighter, great in just about any era, for me.

by Mind the windows Tino. Fri 20 May 2011, 11:03 pm

azania wrote:Tino I am not being dismssive. I am putting things in context. Different eras completely. Jeffs came from an era where he was great but where boxing skills were still being taught and learnt.

I know Az, I was only messing. At least you have the good grace to respond, unlike a certain other poster who, to steal a phrase from the epic Trussman, hit and ran!

by Mind the windows Tino. Fri 20 May 2011, 11:06 pm

88Chris05 wrote:Damn it! Wish I'd not been away for a day or two and got in on this earlier! Not going to read through what everyone put since my comment, in the grand scheme of the debate, is proberly irrelevant now anyway.

I currently have Jeffries at number five in my Heavyweight list, having recently just edged ahead of Lewis and Foreman, who I used to have in front of him by a whisker. Obviously 'The Boilermaker' doesn't rank all that highly on technical ability but while a few could out-skill him for a while (Fitzsimmons leading by a mile before the knockout being a prime example, Corbet another one) nobody, including those two, could out-last or over-power him. I'd be willing to wager that he hit just as hard as any Heavyweight to also feature on my list, too, Foreman and perhaps Dempsey aside.

His level of competition sets him apart from most; Ruhlin and Choynski half a dozen or so fights in, Corbett, Fitzsimmons and Sharkey during his title reign and, crucially, Jeffries is the only other Heavyweight in my reckoning along with Ali and Marciano who can, categorically and one hundred percent, say that they weren't beaten in their prime and at the peak of their powers.

I'm sure most of what I said has already been covered in some capacity during this thread, but that's my take on the man who, for me, is the fifth greatest Heavyweight of them all. Wonderful fighter, great in just about any era, for me.

Chris, thanks for contributing. I was hoping you would at some point as I enjoy the vast majority of your posts. If you get a moment, try and skim the thread as there are some terrific posts from Windy, Captain, Rowley, J Benson and Ghosty if you are a Jeffries fan like myself.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 11:10 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
azania wrote:Tino I am not being dismssive. I am putting things in context. Different eras completely. Jeffs came from an era where he was great but where boxing skills were still being taught and learnt.

I know Az, I was only messing. At least you have the good grace to respond, unlike a certain other poster who, to steal a phrase from the epic Trussman, hit and ran!

For me its quite straightforward. Jeffries is a nailed on top 10. No doubt no argument. But in terms of p4p, that's an entirely different issue. He wouldn't beat many post Dempsey HW champions. With the exception of Patterson, I cant see him beating any post WW2 HW champion. He just didn't possess enough skills. You can rely on toughness for so long. A skilled, hard hitting HW would beat him without much fuss.

by Mind the windows Tino. Fri 20 May 2011, 11:18 pm

azania wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
azania wrote:Tino I am not being dismssive. I am putting things in context. Different eras completely. Jeffs came from an era where he was great but where boxing skills were still being taught and learnt.

I know Az, I was only messing. At least you have the good grace to respond, unlike a certain other poster who, to steal a phrase from the epic Trussman, hit and ran!

For me its quite straightforward. Jeffries is a nailed on top 10. No doubt no argument. But in terms of p4p, that's an entirely different issue. He wouldn't beat many post Dempsey HW champions. With the exception of Patterson, I cant see him beating any post WW2 HW champion. He just didn't possess enough skills. You can rely on toughness for so long. A skilled, hard hitting HW would beat him without much fuss.

Valuev?

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 11:28 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
azania wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
azania wrote:Tino I am not being dismssive. I am putting things in context. Different eras completely. Jeffs came from an era where he was great but where boxing skills were still being taught and learnt.

I know Az, I was only messing. At least you have the good grace to respond, unlike a certain other poster who, to steal a phrase from the epic Trussman, hit and ran!

For me its quite straightforward. Jeffries is a nailed on top 10. No doubt no argument. But in terms of p4p, that's an entirely different issue. He wouldn't beat many post Dempsey HW champions. With the exception of Patterson, I cant see him beating any post WW2 HW champion. He just didn't possess enough skills. You can rely on toughness for so long. A skilled, hard hitting HW would beat him without much fuss.

Valuev?

Oh God. I dont even consider Haye a world champ.

by Mind the windows Tino. Fri 20 May 2011, 11:32 pm

azania wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
azania wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
azania wrote:Tino I am not being dismssive. I am putting things in context. Different eras completely. Jeffs came from an era where he was great but where boxing skills were still being taught and learnt.

I know Az, I was only messing. At least you have the good grace to respond, unlike a certain other poster who, to steal a phrase from the epic Trussman, hit and ran!

For me its quite straightforward. Jeffries is a nailed on top 10. No doubt no argument. But in terms of p4p, that's an entirely different issue. He wouldn't beat many post Dempsey HW champions. With the exception of Patterson, I cant see him beating any post WW2 HW champion. He just didn't possess enough skills. You can rely on toughness for so long. A skilled, hard hitting HW would beat him without much fuss.

Valuev?

Oh God. I dont even consider Haye a world champ.

Ha, fair comment! Anyway, I am done for the night. Young children who will be waking me up early!

Good luck and thanks to all for the debate.

MTWT

by Imperial Ghosty Sat 21 May 2011, 12:44 am

Over twelve rounds Jeffries probably does lose 9/10 against the modern heavys but over 25 rounds the likes of Louis, Dempsey, Holmes, Holyfield, Liston, Tyson even Ali stand little chance if he's still there after 4/5. Has the strength advantage over them all (only see Foreman being physically stronger), has far better stamina than them all (he would without doubt get in close and use his strength to sap energy without really needing to throw), has toughness that is second only to possibly Chuvalo (Loved captains quote about his chin and satan, brilliantly worded) and his power lasted the distance which can't be said of many. To easy just to apply modern standards without doing the reverse.

by azania Sat 21 May 2011, 8:18 am

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Over twelve rounds Jeffries probably does lose 9/10 against the modern heavys but over 25 rounds the likes of Louis, Dempsey, Holmes, Holyfield, Liston, Tyson even Ali stand little chance if he's still there after 4/5. Has the strength advantage over them all (only see Foreman being physically stronger), has far better stamina than them all (he would without doubt get in close and use his strength to sap energy without really needing to throw), has toughness that is second only to possibly Chuvalo (Loved captains quote about his chin and satan, brilliantly worded) and his power lasted the distance which can't be said of many. To easy just to apply modern standards without doing the reverse.

For me the issue isn't the number of rounds as he wont get past 5. The issue is he simply was not skilled enough. Take the modern HW back to his era with all Jeffries had and Jeffries will come up trumps 9/10 times. But bring Jeffs to this era with all he had and he loses 10/10 times.

by Imperial Ghosty Sat 21 May 2011, 9:09 am

Thing is you have nothing to back up the claim he gets taken out within five so is clearly another case of basing things on his era, you cannot deny this in the slightest because an iron chinned guy like Jeffries just wont get taken out in 5 by just anyone.

by azania Sat 21 May 2011, 9:15 am

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Thing is you have nothing to back up the claim he gets taken out within five so is clearly another case of basing things on his era, you cannot deny this in the slightest because an iron chinned guy like Jeffries just wont get taken out in 5 by just anyone.

I am not going into a long protracted debate with you. I have given my opinions and have backed them up. We disagree. Live with it. We are all entitled to have different opinions.

The bottoom line is I base more on skill than the other guy having an iron chin. No boxer alive is impervious to being KO'd. That is why they try to evade punches. Some better than others. Some have stronger chins than others but ALL bar none can be knocked out. Jeffries wasn't the most skillful boxer as has been acknowledged by his fans on this thread. He wouldn't be able to live with the huge, big hittigng HW with his poor defence.

3-5 rounds. No mas.

by **HumanWindmill** Sat 21 May 2011, 9:24 am

azania wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:Over twelve rounds Jeffries probably does lose 9/10 against the modern heavys but over 25 rounds the likes of Louis, Dempsey, Holmes, Holyfield, Liston, Tyson even Ali stand little chance if he's still there after 4/5. Has the strength advantage over them all (only see Foreman being physically stronger), has far better stamina than them all (he would without doubt get in close and use his strength to sap energy without really needing to throw), has toughness that is second only to possibly Chuvalo (Loved captains quote about his chin and satan, brilliantly worded) and his power lasted the distance which can't be said of many. To easy just to apply modern standards without doing the reverse.

For me the issue isn't the number of rounds as he wont get past 5. The issue is he simply was not skilled enough. Take the modern HW back to his era with all Jeffries had and Jeffries will come up trumps 9/10 times. But bring Jeffs to this era with all he had and he loses 10/10 times.

To start with Jeffries, statistically, would be 6ft. 4ins. and around 240lb. had he been born at the same time as Holyfield.

Secondly, it doesn't require too great a leap of the imagination to suppose that, had he been born in the mid sixties, he would have had the benefit of all these mysterious ' modern skills ' about which you keep harping on.

Finally, you might consider that, even in the modern era, we have seen fighters who aren't blessed with silky skills but have still been able to compete at the highest level courtesy of stamina, strength, power, resilience, guts, etc., each of which Jeffries had in spades.

Your simplistic analysis of Jeffries does neither him nor you any credit. Again, Tunney lived till 1978, scarcely had a good word to say about any of his predecessors except Dempsey, described Jeffries as having possessed ' the most uninteresting of styles, ' yet STILL opined that Jeff would be a match for any heavyweight in history.

One word from Tunney is worth a thousand of yours.

by Imperial Ghosty Sat 21 May 2011, 9:26 am

So Foreman takes him out within five and that's it then

You say you've back up your opinion but you have not, being skilled doesn't effect someone ability to take a punch and i'm fairly certain Fitzsimmons hit harder than 98% of heavies with Dempsey, Marciano, Foreman and Shavers hitting harder.

I realise your on the wind up so will just ignore your foundationless comments in future

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