How high should Jeffries rank in top ten lists?

by Mind the windows Tino. Fri 20 May 2011, 9:08 am

First topic message reminder :

How high do people think The Boilermaker should rank when assessing top ten heavyweights (if indeed you think he belongs in the top ten). He is a nailed on top five for me, in fact I had him at number 3 the last time I tried to make a list but he tends to drift between 3 - 5 but never lower.

Completely dominated his era, only losing to a fellow ATG in Jack Johnson, and this after Jeffries had grown fat and happy on his farm in retirement. Maybe Johnson had Jeffries number anyway but I think it is fair to say big Jim was clearly way past his best in 1910.

Great record, with stellar wins over Corbett x 2, Fitzsimmons x 2, and notable wins over Sharkey x 2 and Peter Jackson. He was a fabulously conditioned fighter with a terrific punch and a rock solid chin. His technique was perfectly adapted for the style of fighting at the time where physical strength, of which Jeffries reportedly had no equal, was a must. He became a much better "boxer" as his career progressed and had genuine power in both hands. All this, allied to his murderous training regime and will to win made Jeffries a formidible foe for anyone

I appreciate it is always difficult to compare one era to another, but in terms of record, dominance of an era and skills required to suceed in that era, Jeffries must be a top fiver at least?

by D4thincarnation Fri 20 May 2011, 12:09 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnMJL36_oCs

Hugfest.

Seems very open to the jab, Holmes and Lewis even the Klitschkos would have had a field day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj2jOpoecfc

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 12:10 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:"It is simply inconceivable that they can compete with what came 20 years later."

****************************************************************************

Az, where does this start and stop though? Can Vitali be competitive with Larry Holmes? Of course he can. Can Holmes be competitive with Ali in 1964. Of course he can. Could Jeffries be competitive with Joe Louis? The point goes on.

Over Jeffries rules, and 25 rounds, then why is it so inconceivable that Jeff would be competitive. What magic shot or combination does Lewis throw that blasts Jeff out of there? If he doesn't, he is history.

Techniques were more refined after a generation. To hazard a guess I'd say 1920. Louis absolutely hammers Jeffries. I am no fan of Louis whatsoever, but lets be serious here. I'd pick Louis over any pub toughman which is essentially what Jeffries was. No great shakes in today's game but the baddest man on the planet in the early days.

by D4thincarnation Fri 20 May 2011, 12:11 pm

Maybe if Haye toughest competion was Andre Ward and Chad Dawson and guys similar in size he could have been the 2nd greatest heavyweight ever.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 12:12 pm

D4thincarnation wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnMJL36_oCs

Hugfest.

Seems very open to the jab, Holmes and Lewis even the Klitschkos would have had a field day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj2jOpoecfc

It wouldn't even be competitive. Even bruno or Herbie Hide would take them out of there in double quick time. The sport has moven on beyond measure.

They were tough because they took punches which today's guys would simply slip before countering them to a rapid KO.

But play Strauss and they can Walz with the best of them whilst throwing the occassional punch.

by **HumanWindmill** Fri 20 May 2011, 12:13 pm

azania wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:Damnit he was taught to stop using the crouch because a new technique was developed.

No, he wasn't.

He was advised to shun the crouch because Fitzsimmons believed that he was shipping unnecesaary punishment by using it. Other techniques were already established, and Jeffries' adopting a new technique was no different to Joe Frazier's abandoning the upright, jab - reliant style of his early pro career in favour of the bob and weave taught to him by Futch.

At the very least, acquaint yourself with the facts before trashing the opinions of others.

More upright style. Yep, in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. Those techniques were just established and being improved up. I cant believe that a boxer suddenly decides to do something no-one has ever done before and all of a sudden he becomes an expert in which no-one since has been able t equal. Pure nonsense.

Did you actually read what I wrote ? I remarked on FRAZIER's adopting a new style under Futch's tutelage. Not only do you now lack the grace to consider the opinions of others, but you also exhibit an ignorant disregard for the content.

How many threads about boxing history can we now count as ruined by your inane, ill informed nonsense ?

by D4thincarnation Fri 20 May 2011, 12:29 pm

10 fighters that rank above Jeffries.

Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Lennox Lewis
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Larry Holmes
George Foreman
Mike Tyson
Vitali Klitschko
Jack Dempsey

They would all beat him as well.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 12:33 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:Damnit he was taught to stop using the crouch because a new technique was developed.

No, he wasn't.

He was advised to shun the crouch because Fitzsimmons believed that he was shipping unnecesaary punishment by using it. Other techniques were already established, and Jeffries' adopting a new technique was no different to Joe Frazier's abandoning the upright, jab - reliant style of his early pro career in favour of the bob and weave taught to him by Futch.

At the very least, acquaint yourself with the facts before trashing the opinions of others.

More upright style. Yep, in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. Those techniques were just established and being improved up. I cant believe that a boxer suddenly decides to do something no-one has ever done before and all of a sudden he becomes an expert in which no-one since has been able t equal. Pure nonsense.

Windy

Frazier changed his style after the Bonavena fight. His team had the breadth of boxing knowledge not available to Jeffries to refine that change. You accused me of calling Jeffries talentless. I have never said so or referred to oldies as talentless.

My point is and will always be, that guys inthe Jeffries era simply did not have the accumulation of knowledge to enable them to thoroughl refine their skills.

Nowt to do with diet either or alfafa farming techniques (which has improved also).

Did you actually read what I wrote ? I remarked on FRAZIER's adopting a new style under Futch's tutelage. Not only do you now lack the grace to consider the opinions of others, but you also exhibit an ignorant disregard for the content.

How many threads about boxing history can we now count as ruined by your inane, ill informed nonsense ?

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 12:34 pm

D4thincarnation wrote:10 fighters that rank above Jeffries.

Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Lennox Lewis
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Larry Holmes
George Foreman
Mike Tyson
Vitali Klitschko
Jack Dempsey

They would all beat him as well.

Reluctantly I would agree.

by **HumanWindmill** Fri 20 May 2011, 12:34 pm

Anyway, Tino, this has been an excellent thread, and it's great to see Jeffries enjoying a well deserved moment in the Sun.

by Mind the windows Tino. Fri 20 May 2011, 12:53 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:Anyway, Tino, this has been an excellent thread, and it's great to see Jeffries enjoying a well deserved moment in the Sun.

Thanks Windy. I am reluctant to get into a slanging match with either Az or D4 and try to take everyone opinions at face value. The only thing that really irritates me is the tone that is sometimes in evidence. A flat refusal to accept that these guys had talents that were absolutely suited that their generation. I have conceded to Az that over 12 rounds the margins can become blurred but there seems to be a complete blindspot when we get lower than somewhere around the 1920's! I don't possibly see how Jeffries endurance, punch power and will to win are completely disregarded when viewed against modern (whenever that starts) fighters.

I am still waiting to hear what magic combination that Lewis would unload on Jeff to take him out early and why Lennox's head movement and ability to adsorb punishment is somehow superior due to the fact he was born in a different century. Lennox was caught and taken out by McCall and Rahman and if they can do it, then Jeff sure as hell can.

by D4thincarnation Fri 20 May 2011, 12:55 pm

When you are wearing 5oz gloves you can hit a lot harder.

by **HumanWindmill** Fri 20 May 2011, 12:57 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:Anyway, Tino, this has been an excellent thread, and it's great to see Jeffries enjoying a well deserved moment in the Sun.

Thanks Windy. I am reluctant to get into a slanging match with either Az or D4 and try to take everyone opinions at face value. The only thing that really irritates me is the tone that is sometimes in evidence. A flat refusal to accept that these guys had talents that were absolutely suited that their generation. I have conceded to Az that over 12 rounds the margins can become blurred but there seems to be a complete blindspot when we get lower than somewhere around the 1920's! I don't possibly see how Jeffries endurance, punch power and will to win are completely disregarded when viewed against modern (whenever that starts) fighters.

I am still waiting to hear what magic combination that Lewis would unload on Jeff to take him out early and why Lennox's head movement and ability to adsorb punishment is somehow superior due to the fact he was born in a different century. Lennox was caught and taken out by McCall and Rahman and if they can do it, then Jeff sure as hell can.

You are welcome, Tino.

Those of us with an open mind have thoroughly enjoyed this thread, and I'm sure most would agree that it makes a welcome change from some of the moronic drivel which we need to negotiate, sometimes.

Keep them coming.

by Guest Fri 20 May 2011, 12:58 pm

I second that, Windmill dear boy.Have got nothing to add to the thread really, as I have yet to form an opinion on Jim. Hope you post more, Tino.

by Mind the windows Tino. Fri 20 May 2011, 1:00 pm

D4thincarnation wrote:10 fighters that rank above Jeffries.

Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Lennox Lewis
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Larry Holmes
George Foreman
Mike Tyson
Vitali Klitschko
Jack Dempsey

They would all beat him as well.

D4, some stellar names there and many of them may well beat Jeffries. But ALL of them? In every instance? Not true. What about over 25 rounds and with the "rules" in place at the time? Jeffries could take a shot, period. That ability is not limited to "modern" fighters and how can you be so sure that all these guys would take Jeffries out and not get worn down over 25 rounds? Dempsey is not that far removed from Jeffries in terms of timescale. Did his technique, chin, stamina and will to win suddenly become so far removed and so superior to Jeffries, so much so that he would win without any debate?

by Mind the windows Tino. Fri 20 May 2011, 1:03 pm

andygf wrote:I second that, Windmill dear boy.Have got nothing to add to the thread really, as I have yet to form an opinion on Jim. Hope you post more, Tino.

Thanks Windy/Andy, appreciate your comments. You wait till I get started on John L Sullivan, Az will have a meltdown!

by **HumanWindmill** Fri 20 May 2011, 1:07 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
andygf wrote:I second that, Windmill dear boy.Have got nothing to add to the thread really, as I have yet to form an opinion on Jim. Hope you post more, Tino.

Thanks Windy/Andy, appreciate your comments. You wait till I get started on John L Sullivan, Az will have a meltdown!

jeff ( rowley ) will love it. He recently read Pollack's book about Sullivan and was hugely impressed. John L is a missing chapter in my boxing education, I'm afraid. Sports journalism was in its infancy until Corbett came along, and I've always relied heavily on contemporary newspapers for my research.

Will look forward to learning more about Sullivan.

by Imperial Ghosty Fri 20 May 2011, 1:10 pm

Guys can we just ignore D4 and AZ on these sort of debates, at least then we can just talk properly without the less fortunate trying to sound clever?

by Mind the windows Tino. Fri 20 May 2011, 1:12 pm

Windy, I am far from an expert on John L., but I am reading a truly facinating book on him at the moment. I mentioned it on Rowleys book review thread. When I have finished, I will write a review and maybe even start a thread. Although it sounds like it will be me, Rowley and Az talking in circles then!

by **HumanWindmill** Fri 20 May 2011, 1:17 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:Windy, I am far from an expert on John L., but I am reading a truly facinating book on him at the moment. I mentioned it on Rowleys book review thread. When I have finished, I will write a review and maybe even start a thread. Although it sounds like it will be me, Rowley and Az talking in circles then!

I'll look forward to it, mate.

by Mind the windows Tino. Fri 20 May 2011, 1:19 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Guys can we just ignore D4 and AZ on these sort of debates, at least then we can just talk properly without the less fortunate trying to sound clever?

Ghosty, although the temptation is great, I feel duty bound to reply as the originator of the thread!

By the way, appreciate your comments earlier. Your are bang on about Jackson, really good win over an extremely dangerous fighter.

by Imperial Ghosty Fri 20 May 2011, 1:23 pm

We just end up going round and round in circles having the same debate over and over again, with the possible exception of Foreman which has already been mentioned not sure how anyone can say with any conviction that Jeffries gets taken out early. Fitzsimmons was a small heavyweight and would most probably be able to fight at Welterweight nowadays but he carried an ungodly punch that was thrown with perfect technique for any era, his power cannot be questioned and for me punches harder than most at Heavyweight.

by Mind the windows Tino. Fri 20 May 2011, 1:26 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:We just end up going round and round in circles having the same debate over and over again, with the possible exception of Foreman which has already been mentioned not sure how anyone can say with any conviction that Jeffries gets taken out early. Fitzsimmons was a small heavyweight and would most probably be able to fight at Welterweight nowadays but he carried an ungodly punch that was thrown with perfect technique for any era, his power cannot be questioned and for me punches harder than most at Heavyweight.

Imagine Bob fighting at Welterweight now then Ghosty, with his ungodly punch. I think only Supermanny would be able to stay on his feet. That is, of course, assuming Bob could make 144 lbs.

by Imperial Ghosty Fri 20 May 2011, 1:30 pm

That's the thing he connects on anyone between Welterweight and Cruiserweight it's fight over, very few have been able to work an opening like he could, over 12 rounds he'd have the benefit of being able to fight more aggressively too from the outset.

by D4thincarnation Fri 20 May 2011, 1:32 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:We just end up going round and round in circles having the same debate over and over again, with the possible exception of Foreman which has already been mentioned not sure how anyone can say with any conviction that Jeffries gets taken out early. Fitzsimmons was a small heavyweight and would most probably be able to fight at Welterweight nowadays but he carried an ungodly punch that was thrown with perfect technique for any era, his power cannot be questioned and for me punches harder than most at Heavyweight.

Imagine Bob fighting at Welterweight now then Ghosty, with his ungodly punch. I think only Supermanny would be able to stay on his feet. That is, of course, assuming Bob could make 144 lbs.

No chance Fitz making welter. But say if he could it just shows what a weak era of heavyweight boxing it really was back then.

by **HumanWindmill** Fri 20 May 2011, 1:35 pm

Let's get back to the original topic and have some respect for Tino's article.

by Mind the windows Tino. Fri 20 May 2011, 1:39 pm

D4thincarnation wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:We just end up going round and round in circles having the same debate over and over again, with the possible exception of Foreman which has already been mentioned not sure how anyone can say with any conviction that Jeffries gets taken out early. Fitzsimmons was a small heavyweight and would most probably be able to fight at Welterweight nowadays but he carried an ungodly punch that was thrown with perfect technique for any era, his power cannot be questioned and for me punches harder than most at Heavyweight.

Imagine Bob fighting at Welterweight now then Ghosty, with his ungodly punch. I think only Supermanny would be able to stay on his feet. That is, of course, assuming Bob could make 144 lbs.

No chance Fitz making welter. But say if he could it just shows what a weak era of heavyweight boxing it really was back then.

D4, that is probably the time to bring this thread to it's natural end. You can have this one as a victory.

MTWT

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 1:53 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:Anyway, Tino, this has been an excellent thread, and it's great to see Jeffries enjoying a well deserved moment in the Sun.

Thanks Windy. I am reluctant to get into a slanging match with either Az or D4 and try to take everyone opinions at face value. The only thing that really irritates me is the tone that is sometimes in evidence. A flat refusal to accept that these guys had talents that were absolutely suited that their generation. I have conceded to Az that over 12 rounds the margins can become blurred but there seems to be a complete blindspot when we get lower than somewhere around the 1920's! I don't possibly see how Jeffries endurance, punch power and will to win are completely disregarded when viewed against modern (whenever that starts) fighters.

I am still waiting to hear what magic combination that Lewis would unload on Jeff to take him out early and why Lennox's head movement and ability to adsorb punishment is somehow superior due to the fact he was born in a different century. Lennox was caught and taken out by McCall and Rahman and if they can do it, then Jeff sure as hell can.

Tino

Its quite simple really. Jeffries whilst a cert ATG simply did not have the fundermental skills that many boxers have taken for granted. The sport was in its infancy as far as rules go. No disrespect to him whatsoever but if you have not been taught how to block a jab (an example and not a reality) you simply will not know other than using instinct to get out of the way.

Yes he can take punishment. But that is because fundermentals of defence were not altogether known as they became later. Lewis is better all round by virtue of the fact (my opinion) that he has bene taught more. Yes he got KO'd by Rahman and McCall. But imo Jeffs would not be in the position to land his blows. If he did, he would win by KO and pdq KO also. With all the will in the world, if hit at the right spot you will go down.

The skillsets that Lewis et al posessed will vanquish the grit and determination Jeffs had.

Once again no disrespect to those guys. Without them we wouldn't be talking too much about boxing today.

But there are some ultra sensitive posters on here who deem any criticism of oldies as a personal insult and they begin bed wetting. So I'll tread carefully.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 1:56 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:We just end up going round and round in circles having the same debate over and over again, with the possible exception of Foreman which has already been mentioned not sure how anyone can say with any conviction that Jeffries gets taken out early. Fitzsimmons was a small heavyweight and would most probably be able to fight at Welterweight nowadays but he carried an ungodly punch that was thrown with perfect technique for any era, his power cannot be questioned and for me punches harder than most at Heavyweight.

That's the problem atom/ghost or whoever. Just because you cant see it doesn't mean others feel the same. Its all subjective and opinions will differ. Accept difference without getting miffed.

by **HumanWindmill** Fri 20 May 2011, 1:57 pm

azania wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:We just end up going round and round in circles having the same debate over and over again, with the possible exception of Foreman which has already been mentioned not sure how anyone can say with any conviction that Jeffries gets taken out early. Fitzsimmons was a small heavyweight and would most probably be able to fight at Welterweight nowadays but he carried an ungodly punch that was thrown with perfect technique for any era, his power cannot be questioned and for me punches harder than most at Heavyweight.

That's the problem atom/ghost or whoever. Just because you cant see it doesn't mean others feel the same. Its all subjective and opinions will differ. Accept difference without getting miffed.

Of course, another alternative would be to exercise sufficient respect for the author of the thread and not ruin it with mindless prejudice.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 1:59 pm

Oh yes. Fitz was another freaks of nature. Most of the champions bar none were freaks of nature.

I read that Pip Cueavas was a phenom punching the heavybag and actually broke some. Only HWs did that. Imagine him fighting in that era. He would also be called a freak of nature with ungodly power. The fact is with increased fitness comes greater punch resistance. These guys were not full time boxers per se. They boxed for wages.

by **HumanWindmill** Fri 20 May 2011, 2:03 pm

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/jeffries.html

http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/casey/MC_Jeffries.htm

http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/w4x-tc.htm

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/personal.htm

Short extract from cyber mini bio :

Many boxing people rated him as the best heavyweight ever - Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson, Jim Corbett, Tommy Burns, Tom Sharkey, Jack Root, Willie Ritchie, Patsy Haley, Dan Morgan, Joe Woodman, DeWitt Van Court and Hugh Fullerton - to name a few

Nat Fleischer ranked Jeffries as the #2 All-Time Heavyweight; Charley Rose ranked him as the #5 All-Time Heavyweight.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 2:05 pm

Prejuduces maybe. But mindless definately not. It gets tiring when those greats are referred to as freaks of nature when what they did then is pretty standard today.

I haven't been rude, disrespectful or insulting to anyone. In fact quite the opposite. I have explained the respect I have for the pioneers of our sport and show tremendous respect to them, their achievements and what they have done to bring boxing to the fore (although colour PPV is spoiling it).

But I will not agree that they are equal to guys who came along later.

I recall an early interview with Mike Tyson (laugh if you will but he has seen footages owned by Jacobs and studied them) who when asked who the greatest HW ever was. He replied "oh easy, Louis". Now you know my view on Louis.

Asked how he would fare against Dempsey, Tyson refused to answer saying it was almost a different sport then compared to when Louis was fighting. I have heard Jim Jacobs say similar things.

Each to their own Windy. I have not disrespected your or anyone elses views. And I will not do that. I will, though, disagree vehemently with them, which is my right.

by **HumanWindmill** Fri 20 May 2011, 2:08 pm

azania wrote:Prejuduces maybe. But mindless definately not. It gets tiring when those greats are referred to as freaks of nature when what they did then is pretty standard today.

I haven't been rude, disrespectful or insulting to anyone. In fact quite the opposite. I have explained the respect I have for the pioneers of our sport and show tremendous respect to them, their achievements and what they have done to bring boxing to the fore (although colour PPV is spoiling it).

But I will not agree that they are equal to guys who came along later.

I recall an early interview with Mike Tyson (laugh if you will but he has seen footages owned by Jacobs and studied them) who when asked who the greatest HW ever was. He replied "oh easy, Louis". Now you know my view on Louis.

Asked how he would fare against Dempsey, Tyson refused to answer saying it was almost a different sport then compared to when Louis was fighting. I have heard Jim Jacobs say similar things.

Each to their own Windy. I have not disrespected your or anyone elses views. And I will not do that. I will, though, disagree vehemently with them, which is my right.

So, and I quote : " Good God, this is getting ridiculous, now " isn't disrespectful, then ? Especially when coming froim somebody who knows approximately zero about the subject, and whose obsession spoils every single history - related thread here ?

I see.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 2:12 pm

Absolutely not windy. I found it incredulous. IMO to mention that a boxer of the calibre of Lewis would have trouble with someone with basic skills id ridiculous. Their skills were basic because of when they were fighting.

Colombus was a great explorer using basic equipment. Newton a great scientist etc etc etc. But you cant compare Hawkins to newton as Hawkins knows more that Newton ever considered existed. Is that being disrectful to Newton who remains one of the greatest scientists who ever lived?

by **HumanWindmill** Fri 20 May 2011, 2:14 pm

azania wrote:Absolutely not windy. I found it incredulous. IMO to mention that a boxer of the calibre of Lewis would have trouble with someone with basic skills id ridiculous. Their skills were basic because of when they were fighting.

Colombus was a great explorer using basic equipment. Newton a great scientist etc etc etc. But you cant compare Hawkins to newton as Hawkins knows more that Newton ever considered existed. Is that being disrectful to Newton who remains one of the greatest scientists who ever lived?

As far as I know, Jeffries' fists were no more basic than Lewis'. Perhaps you know better, Mr Darwin.

by coxy0001 Fri 20 May 2011, 2:15 pm

Ahhhh, my first visit to this article and i clicked on it thinking "EVS that Azania has gone into mod v old".... I must admit those odds should've been nearer 3/10 or so Wink

Jeffries is top 10 for me....

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 2:24 pm

coxy0001 wrote:Ahhhh, my first visit to this article and i clicked on it thinking "EVS that Azania has gone into mod v old".... I must admit those odds should've been nearer 3/10 or so

Jeffries is top 10 for me....

Failed once again Coxy. I joined the debate when the comparison was already made. Nowt to do with me. It seems you read the headlines without a parting glance at the story.

carry on mate.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 2:27 pm

HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:Absolutely not windy. I found it incredulous. IMO to mention that a boxer of the calibre of Lewis would have trouble with someone with basic skills id ridiculous. Their skills were basic because of when they were fighting.

Colombus was a great explorer using basic equipment. Newton a great scientist etc etc etc. But you cant compare Hawkins to newton as Hawkins knows more that Newton ever considered existed. Is that being disrectful to Newton who remains one of the greatest scientists who ever lived?

As far as I know, Jeffries' fists were no more basic than Lewis'. Perhaps you know better, Mr Darwin.

Oh they weren't Mr Stickinthemud. But the manner he threw punches and evaded those in return has changed beyond recognition.

by Mind the windows Tino. Fri 20 May 2011, 2:28 pm

[quote="azania"]Absolutely not windy. I found it incredulous. IMO to mention that a boxer of the calibre of Lewis would have trouble with someone with basic skills id ridiculous. Their skills were basic because of when they were fighting.

Az, but when do peoples chins become better? It has been mentioned by a few posters that Jeff had a supreme ability to take puishment and come back fighting. Now whether this shows a lack of fundamental defense or not, he still had enourmous reserves of strength, and I reiterate, why is Lewis's punching power guaranteed to take Jeff out. Even if we agree that Lewis throws some perfectly executed combinations (taught by a modern trainer of course) then there is still absolutely no way we can assume that Jeff is taken out. He has proven his durability time and time again, poor defense or not. If he doesn't take him out, then over 25 rounds, Jeffries at least has a chance, no?

For what it is worth, I have Lennox as a top tenner so this is no reflection on him as a fighter, I just feel he is as vulnerable as anyone else to Jeffries pressure, power and stamina. I guess we are never going to agree, but I still can't get my head round the fact you think it would be a massacre.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 2:34 pm

[quote="Mind the windows Tino."]

azania wrote:Absolutely not windy. I found it incredulous. IMO to mention that a boxer of the calibre of Lewis would have trouble with someone with basic skills id ridiculous. Their skills were basic because of when they were fighting.

Az, but when do peoples chins become better? It has been mentioned by a few posters that Jeff had a supreme ability to take puishment and come back fighting. Now whether this shows a lack of fundamental defense or not, he still had enourmous reserves of strength, and I reiterate, why is Lewis's punching power guaranteed to take Jeff out. Even if we agree that Lewis throws some perfectly executed combinations (taught by a modern trainer of course) then there is still absolutely no way we can assume that Jeff is taken out. He has proven his durability time and time again, poor defense or not. If he doesn't take him out, then over 25 rounds, Jeffries at least has a chance, no?

For what it is worth, I have Lennox as a top tenner so this is no reflection on him as a fighter, I just feel he is as vulnerable as anyone else to Jeffries pressure, power and stamina. I guess we are never going to agree, but I still can't get my head round the fact you think it would be a massacre.

Lewis is a full blown HW. A huge HW at that. Jeffs fought small HW and MW. The reason he proved his durability was because he took punishment. If Lewis dished out that punishment, he would be out.

hin doesn't improve per se again. Your fitness increases your recuperative powers. But if hit hard enough, you could have a pulse rate of 10 per minute, it doesn't matter. The will of a spartan etc etc etc.

For what its worth, I dont have Lewis as a top 10 HW.

by BALTIMORA Fri 20 May 2011, 2:39 pm

azania wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:Absolutely not windy. I found it incredulous. IMO to mention that a boxer of the calibre of Lewis would have trouble with someone with basic skills id ridiculous. Their skills were basic because of when they were fighting.

Colombus was a great explorer using basic equipment. Newton a great scientist etc etc etc. But you cant compare Hawkins to newton as Hawkins knows more that Newton ever considered existed. Is that being disrectful to Newton who remains one of the greatest scientists who ever lived?

As far as I know, Jeffries' fists were no more basic than Lewis'. Perhaps you know better, Mr Darwin.

Oh they weren't Mr Stickinthemud. But the manner he threw punches and evaded those in return has changed beyond recognition.

Changed beyond recognition? That's just not true.

by Mind the windows Tino. Fri 20 May 2011, 2:42 pm

[quote="azania"]

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
azania wrote:Absolutely not windy. I found it incredulous. IMO to mention that a boxer of the calibre of Lewis would have trouble with someone with basic skills id ridiculous. Their skills were basic because of when they were fighting.

Az, but when do peoples chins become better? It has been mentioned by a few posters that Jeff had a supreme ability to take puishment and come back fighting. Now whether this shows a lack of fundamental defense or not, he still had enourmous reserves of strength, and I reiterate, why is Lewis's punching power guaranteed to take Jeff out. Even if we agree that Lewis throws some perfectly executed combinations (taught by a modern trainer of course) then there is still absolutely no way we can assume that Jeff is taken out. He has proven his durability time and time again, poor defense or not. If he doesn't take him out, then over 25 rounds, Jeffries at least has a chance, no?

For what it is worth, I have Lennox as a top tenner so this is no reflection on him as a fighter, I just feel he is as vulnerable as anyone else to Jeffries pressure, power and stamina. I guess we are never going to agree, but I still can't get my head round the fact you think it would be a massacre.

Lewis is a full blown HW. A huge HW at that. Jeffs fought small HW and MW. The reason he proved his durability was because he took punishment. If Lewis dished out that punishment, he would be out.

hin doesn't improve per se again. Your fitness increases your recuperative powers. But if hit hard enough, you could have a pulse rate of 10 per minute, it doesn't matter. The will of a spartan etc etc etc.

For what its worth, I dont have Lewis as a top 10 HW.

Ok Az. We will never agree but at least you have argued your point. D4 gave me some random list and then hasn't bothered to answer my critique of it. I have been D4'd!

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 2:44 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:
azania wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:Absolutely not windy. I found it incredulous. IMO to mention that a boxer of the calibre of Lewis would have trouble with someone with basic skills id ridiculous. Their skills were basic because of when they were fighting.

Colombus was a great explorer using basic equipment. Newton a great scientist etc etc etc. But you cant compare Hawkins to newton as Hawkins knows more that Newton ever considered existed. Is that being disrectful to Newton who remains one of the greatest scientists who ever lived?

As far as I know, Jeffries' fists were no more basic than Lewis'. Perhaps you know better, Mr Darwin.

Oh they weren't Mr Stickinthemud. But the manner he threw punches and evaded those in return has changed beyond recognition.

Changed beyond recognition? That's just not true.

According to Jacobs and Tyson it is true. And according to what I have seen of him fight, I can see a complete transformation in the sport.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 2:47 pm

[quote="Mind the windows Tino."]

azania wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
azania wrote:Absolutely not windy. I found it incredulous. IMO to mention that a boxer of the calibre of Lewis would have trouble with someone with basic skills id ridiculous. Their skills were basic because of when they were fighting.

Az, but when do peoples chins become better? It has been mentioned by a few posters that Jeff had a supreme ability to take puishment and come back fighting. Now whether this shows a lack of fundamental defense or not, he still had enourmous reserves of strength, and I reiterate, why is Lewis's punching power guaranteed to take Jeff out. Even if we agree that Lewis throws some perfectly executed combinations (taught by a modern trainer of course) then there is still absolutely no way we can assume that Jeff is taken out. He has proven his durability time and time again, poor defense or not. If he doesn't take him out, then over 25 rounds, Jeffries at least has a chance, no?

For what it is worth, I have Lennox as a top tenner so this is no reflection on him as a fighter, I just feel he is as vulnerable as anyone else to Jeffries pressure, power and stamina. I guess we are never going to agree, but I still can't get my head round the fact you think it would be a massacre.

Lewis is a full blown HW. A huge HW at that. Jeffs fought small HW and MW. The reason he proved his durability was because he took punishment. If Lewis dished out that punishment, he would be out.

hin doesn't improve per se again. Your fitness increases your recuperative powers. But if hit hard enough, you could have a pulse rate of 10 per minute, it doesn't matter. The will of a spartan etc etc etc.

For what its worth, I dont have Lewis as a top 10 HW.

Ok Az. We will never agree but at least you have argued your point. D4 gave me some random list and then hasn't bothered to answer my critique of it. I have been D4'd!

No worries. I have a bet that if Groves loses I wont enter into debates about old timers. censored

by BALTIMORA Fri 20 May 2011, 2:48 pm

azania wrote:
BALTIMORA wrote:
azania wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:Absolutely not windy. I found it incredulous. IMO to mention that a boxer of the calibre of Lewis would have trouble with someone with basic skills id ridiculous. Their skills were basic because of when they were fighting.

Colombus was a great explorer using basic equipment. Newton a great scientist etc etc etc. But you cant compare Hawkins to newton as Hawkins knows more that Newton ever considered existed. Is that being disrectful to Newton who remains one of the greatest scientists who ever lived?

As far as I know, Jeffries' fists were no more basic than Lewis'. Perhaps you know better, Mr Darwin.

Oh they weren't Mr Stickinthemud. But the manner he threw punches and evaded those in return has changed beyond recognition.

Changed beyond recognition? That's just not true.

According to Jacobs and Tyson it is true. And according to what I have seen of him fight, I can see a complete transformation in the sport.

Then you need your eyes testing. Seriously. BEYOND RECOGNITION? No.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 2:55 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:
azania wrote:
BALTIMORA wrote:
azania wrote:
HumanWindmill wrote:
azania wrote:Absolutely not windy. I found it incredulous. IMO to mention that a boxer of the calibre of Lewis would have trouble with someone with basic skills id ridiculous. Their skills were basic because of when they were fighting.

Colombus was a great explorer using basic equipment. Newton a great scientist etc etc etc. But you cant compare Hawkins to newton as Hawkins knows more that Newton ever considered existed. Is that being disrectful to Newton who remains one of the greatest scientists who ever lived?

As far as I know, Jeffries' fists were no more basic than Lewis'. Perhaps you know better, Mr Darwin.

Oh they weren't Mr Stickinthemud. But the manner he threw punches and evaded those in return has changed beyond recognition.

Changed beyond recognition? That's just not true.

According to Jacobs and Tyson it is true. And according to what I have seen of him fight, I can see a complete transformation in the sport.

Then you need your eyes testing. Seriously. BEYOND RECOGNITION? No.

Its like pro and amateur boxing. Same sport but one is completely different from the other. Still boxing though.

by BALTIMORA Fri 20 May 2011, 2:57 pm

Beyond. Recognition.

by azania Fri 20 May 2011, 3:01 pm

OK, slight exaggeration (although those were Jabob's words). Changed a lot. After all those guys still threw 'punches'.

by J.Benson II Fri 20 May 2011, 3:02 pm

[quote="azania"]

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
azania wrote:Absolutely not windy. I found it incredulous. IMO to mention that a boxer of the calibre of Lewis would have trouble with someone with basic skills id ridiculous. Their skills were basic because of when they were fighting.

Az, but when do peoples chins become better? It has been mentioned by a few posters that Jeff had a supreme ability to take puishment and come back fighting. Now whether this shows a lack of fundamental defense or not, he still had enourmous reserves of strength, and I reiterate, why is Lewis's punching power guaranteed to take Jeff out. Even if we agree that Lewis throws some perfectly executed combinations (taught by a modern trainer of course) then there is still absolutely no way we can assume that Jeff is taken out. He has proven his durability time and time again, poor defense or not. If he doesn't take him out, then over 25 rounds, Jeffries at least has a chance, no?

For what it is worth, I have Lennox as a top tenner so this is no reflection on him as a fighter, I just feel he is as vulnerable as anyone else to Jeffries pressure, power and stamina. I guess we are never going to agree, but I still can't get my head round the fact you think it would be a massacre.

Lewis is a full blown HW. A huge HW at that. Jeffs fought small HW and MW. The reason he proved his durability was because he took punishment. If Lewis dished out that punishment, he would be out.

hin doesn't improve per se again. Your fitness increases your recuperative powers. But if hit hard enough, you could have a pulse rate of 10 per minute, it doesn't matter. The will of a spartan etc etc etc.

For what its worth, I dont have Lewis as a top 10 HW.

Interestingly, ESPN Classic were showing one of Lewis' fights a few weeks back. It was against that mohawked Croatian Zeljko Mavrovic. A limited, Europeon level fighter that was roughly the same size as Jeffries (possibly even smaller). It was a pretty dull fight but it was worth noting that Lewis failed to KO or even deck Mavrovic despite landing numerous heavy blows and the fight ended up going the full 12 rounds.
Therefore, while the chance of Lewis KO'ing Jeff in a fantasy match-up is possible, its by no means a certainty.

by **HumanWindmill** Fri 20 May 2011, 3:04 pm

J.Benson II wrote:

Interestingly, ESPN Classic were showing one of Lewis' fights a few weeks back. It was against that mohawked Croatian Zeljko Mavrovic. A limited, Europeon level fighter that was roughly the same size as Jeffries (possibly even smaller). It was a pretty dull fight but it was worth noting that Lewis failed to KO or even deck Mavrovic despite landing numerous heavy blows and the fight ended up going the full 12 rounds.
Therefore, while the chance of Lewis KO'ing Jeff in a fantasy match-up is possible, its by no means a certainty.

There's a voice of reason.

Lewis couldn't put ex cruiser Holy away, either. Just a reminder, az. Sorry it's not in colour, but it's in modern English :

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/jeffries.html

http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/casey/MC_Jeffries.htm

http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/w4x-tc.htm

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/personal.htm

Enjoy.

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