Floyd will fight Maidana

First topic message reminder :

It's now official. Not a fan of this fight as I don't see what Maidana can do that will cause him any problems, a better fight than Khan in my opinion though.

Rowley wrote:Not really, does not matter what he was once, it matters what he is now. As a current belt holder at light middle are we really stretching reality to call him a light middle? As such those who would like to see him fight GGG are asking him to go up one division.

Can I ask you a genuine question Truss? Why do you not want to see the fight?

You telling me you'd want to see Chavez vs Michael Nunn........

Constantly giving examples of light welters against light middles is a little disingenious Truss. I want to see a light middle against a middle. Can you please answer the question why you don't want to see the fight. I will happily provide a number of reasons why I do if that will help.

Chavez was a 130 pound guy Nunn could have boiled down to 154 probably..For cash.

What's disingenious is ..you giving people free rides...........Like Hagler v Spinks............

whilst criticising a guy who has already had the bottle to move up four weights already....

You said you don't like him.............You declared your hand....

Have time for you buddy but you aren't consistent...

he beats GGG .....he's overrated ..So you want Ward next no doubt !!..anything for the result you want.

So no answer to the question. The best we can manage is "you don't like him, you want him to lose" I was 12 in 1985, not sure I had much in the way of an opinion on Hagler Spinks.

Please feel free to answer the question, is not especially difficult.

I don't see why someone small at the weight needs to commit suicide no..........

No is the answer to you question..........Wouldn't want to see Sanchez-Mccallum either....

I remember Norris vs Taylor do you.......Did you enjoy that ??

So you don't want to see it out of fear for Floyd's safety, that is so touching.

At the moment I don't have to worry..........More fun to watch bitter types crying in their hankies....

You don't want to see him "fight" GGG...You want to see him "lose" to GGG !!

He's already above Burley in my list Mate !!..and rising..  

Just as Larry who avoided Page and Thomas remains high up in your Heavy list...

You have many qualities my friend..Consistency sure ain't one of them !!

'He beats ggg, he's over-rated'.. One of my safer predictions!

I don't like him truss. I'd be happy to see him lose from that respect, but I'd be equally happy for him to put on a masterclass in a genuinely competitive fight.

If we accept he doesn't need to do it and he's blameless if he doesn't.

Taylor was shot against Norris, floyd isn't. But if you think its napoles monzon then fair enough.

Who would you like to see him fight as a boxing fan? Surely you prefer competitive fights to exhibitions?

Why wouldn't anyone want to see a pickem fight?  No one would want to see Sanchez v McCallum because it wouldn't be competitive.  It says a lot about how highly people rate Floyd that they think he is about 50/50 with what looks like a very good, full blown, middleweight.  Do you not think it would be a competitive fight, Truss.  
 
P.S. I don't approach this from the point of view of wanting Floyd to lose - I just want there to be a prospect of him losing.  It would be great if he beat Golovkin - yet another part of the legend and we can all tell our grandkids we saw one the very best overcome the odds and size disadvantages to beat a middleweight monster.

I don't think he would lose to GGG for what it is worth, I do think though that if he is at anything less than his best the possibility is there. As such we would see a fight with genuine intrigue where the best fighter of his generation would have to display every weapon in his considerable arsenal.

As it goes though I do not particularly care if he loses, why would I? Or perhaps a better question would be why would you?

Larry is high on my heavy list, however outside of Ali and Louis you're hard pushed to name any decent heavy who ain't avoided at least someone so unless you are suggesting I only have a top two and withhold the other 8 places not sure Holmes is of too much relevance here.

Rowley, we can't expect Mayweather to move up again and he's not a light middleweight at all. On fight night he weighs less than quite a few lightweights which tells it's own story. If Golovkin or Martinez move down in weight then fair enough but Lara, Bradley and Pacquiao are the fights that should happen.

Meldrick taylor........Milky..

I'm thinking of the guy that beat (Breland basher) Aaron Davis for the WBA 147 title and defended it twice before moving up to fight Norris !!

Not bad for a shot fighter ........

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Rowley, we can't expect Mayweather to move up again and he's not a light middleweight at all. On fight night he weighs less than quite a few lightweights which tells it's own story. If Golovkin or Martinez move down in weight then fair enough but Lara, Bradley and Pacquiao are the fights that should happen.

Armstrong was no middle when he fought Garcia either but he tried it and had enough skill and ability to compensate for the physical disadvantages. If folk are happy to shell out to see him win every round against Maidana fair enough each to their own. As a fan I want to see fights I get excited about and can't pick a winner in, but as I say who am I to criticise how others get their excitement from the sport.

One example is rebuttal............

One Man has to carry the sport it seems........according to Rowley..

I want Ward to fight Klitscho because Jones fought Ruiz.....I want Stevenson to fight Joshua in two years time because spinks fought Holmes..

But we'll let Marvin stay at middle...................

Yes that is exactly my argument Truss, well summarised.

As 130-160 is 30 pounds.......I say we pick and mix ..........

Harry Greb v Benny Leonard anybody ??

Could Floyd fight at 130 on May 5th? Unless the answer to that question is yes he is not a 130lber.

Rowley wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Rowley, we can't expect Mayweather to move up again and he's not a light middleweight at all. On fight night he weighs less than quite a few lightweights which tells it's own story. If Golovkin or Martinez move down in weight then fair enough but Lara, Bradley and Pacquiao are the fights that should happen.

Armstrong was no middle when he fought Garcia either but he tried it and had enough skill and ability to compensate for the physical disadvantages. If folk are happy to shell out to see him win every round against Maidana fair enough each to their own. As a fan I want to see fights I get excited about and can't pick a winner in, but as I say who am I to criticise how others get their excitement from the sport.

Not happy and not shelling out, but that still doesn't mean I think a guy who barely makes LMW should be fighting a 160lber. We have weight divisions for a reason.

And speaking of 'disingenuous' comments/arguments, so is 'I was a baby once' as it's a fallacious apples & pears comparison. We're comparing a guy in his mid-20's who's a career 160lber with possibly room to grow into his frame further versus a guy in his mid-30's that is as grown as he ever will be (naturally) with no where left to go, barring putting on excess fat or muscle.

You are frustrated Jeff........ I can understand it.........But guys like Eusebio Pedroza and other great champions fought far worse opponents than Mayweather.....

Mayweather owes the boxing public a performance...........Like all performers you can pay and choose to watch him or not....

But no one can say fighting fellow world champions like Maidana is something to criticise him for when guys like GGG fight macklin.......

As for the argument Maidana hasn't fought at that weight blah blah............

Mayweather is an ex super feather.....

All very silly when looked at logically.....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
But no one can say fighting fellow world champions like Maidana is something to criticise him for when guys like GGG fight macklin.......

.....

Exactly. Absolutely no-one can accuse GGG of being an all-time great is he continues to fight the likes of Macklin, Lee, Geale etc. Same goes for Floyd.

So Floyd isn't an alltime great......  

Getting a bit silly now on here....Maybe time to move on..

Top hat I am not suggesting for a minute in terms of size him and GGG would be anything other than a mismatch. However it is my genuine believe that Floyd is skilled and experienced enough to compensate for these disadvantages and not only make the fight competitive but actually win it.

As for putting on weight Floyd does not need to, he can enter a middleweight fight at 152, it is allowed, he goes in at a shape and weight that is good for him and relies on his skills, speed and defensive genius to get through.

He should give away 8 pounds at the weigh in to someone who'll weigh 170 on the night..

F**k me..This guy really does want Floyd beat.

I don't think he would be beat, how many times do I have to say it. However I think there is a chance he would be beaten, known by a different term that is called competitive.

Giving a probable 18 pounds away to someone.......Is a bit silly !!

Just to satisfy rose tinters like you and Haz..........Haz doesn't even think he's great..Maybe Rodders will be a long too in a minute to suggest Billy Backus knocks him out in 3..

Stay at at 147/154 and forget about the guys who'll never accept him.....

Is my advice.............We all saw what happened after Alvarez.(The number 1 154 pounder!! and Floyd never fights anybody!!) He's a stiff now..

Shame he hasn't got Hamsho and Obelmijas to fight twice instead.......Haz thinks that makes you great apparently..

Yeah come on Jeff, just admit it. You hate Floyd and you're jealous of him. You think he'd lose to Golovkin and get knocked out and that's the only reason you want to see the fight. And even if Mayweather wins you won't give him any credit and you'll say that it was cherry picking on Mayweather's part and that it was always going to be easy work because Golovkin is a bum who was overrated.

The problem with the Canelo fight is/was that it was applauded in the lead-up, and he was genuinely the #1@154, however he was utter rubbish on the night - and not just because Floyd made him look that way. Never used his sized or youth (to fight with pressure or intensity) which, let's face it, were his only real advantages.

88Chris05 wrote:Yeah come on Jeff, just admit it. You hate Floyd and you're jealous of him. You think he'd lose to Golovkin and get knocked out and that's the only reason you want to see the fight. And even if Mayweather wins you won't give him any credit and you'll say that it was cherry picking on Mayweather's part and that it was always going to be easy work because Golovkin is a bum who was overrated.

Fair point Chris, that was exactly my reaction when he beat Alvarez so I do have form in that respect.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Giving a probable 18 pounds away to someone.......Is a bit silly !!

Just to satisfy rose tinters like you and Haz..........Haz doesn't even think he's great..Maybe Rodders will be a long too in a minute to suggest Billy Backus knocks him out in 3..

Stay at at 147/154 and forget about the guys who'll never accept him.....

Is my advice.............We all saw what happened after Alvarez.(The number 1 154 pounder!! and Floyd never fights anybody!!) He's a stiff now..

Shame he hasn't got Hamsho and Obelmijas to fight twice instead.......Haz thinks that makes you great apparently..

He's a great fighter but his record doesn't stack up to the true legends of the sport. On the other hand, he'll walk away from the sport healthy and wealthy and so that won't bother him one jot.

We aren't going to agree are we......

I just think he gets singled out for crimes that have been going on from year dot (Hagler as an obvious example)......and that there is a terrible disrespect for the fighters he's beaten.........Especially Alvarez and Hatton..(Hatton fight was 50/50 on the old BBC site)

I'll still respect you guys in the morning though !1  

Goodnight John boy..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:We aren't going to agree are we......

I just think he gets singled out for crimes that have been going on from year dot (Hagler as an obvious example)......and that there is a terrible disrespect for the fighters he's beaten.........Especially Alvarez and Hatton..(Hatton fight was 50/50 on the old BBC site)

I'll still respect you guys in the morning though !1  

Goodnight John boy..

Look at his record, though. Pacquiao's beaten just about everyone that Floyd has (and more decisively in some cases). That doesn't make him a top ten ATG either. There's a crucial bout missing from both men's record (the one that could have catapaulted them into the argument). At least Pacquiao is willing to keep testing himself by taking on the likes of Bradley, who's a good fighter and a level above the likes of Ortiz, Guerrero and Maidana.

Rowley wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Rowley, we can't expect Mayweather to move up again and he's not a light middleweight at all. On fight night he weighs less than quite a few lightweights which tells it's own story. If Golovkin or Martinez move down in weight then fair enough but Lara, Bradley and Pacquiao are the fights that should happen.

Armstrong was no middle when he fought Garcia either but he tried it and had enough skill and ability to compensate for the physical disadvantages. If folk are happy to shell out to see him win every round against Maidana fair enough each to their own. As a fan I want to see fights I get excited about and can't pick a winner in, but as I say who am I to criticise how others get their excitement from the sport.

Garcia was no middleweight either and Armstrong did have the benefit of facing him at Welterweight prior to that bout, it's not really comparable nor was it for the legitimate middleweight champion. There was very little size difference between the two.

OK use Robinson vs Maxim as your example if you prefer, believe the weight differentials in that one were not much more than we are proposing here.

What about all those who didn't keep moving up Jeff and I don't recall Robinson fancying much of Moore either.

The Garcia-Armstrong draw was for the legitimate Middleweight title, all things considered. Certainly the most legitimate that was possible at that time. Sorry, nitpicking! Just don't want a myth to grow in these here parts.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:What about all those who didn't keep moving up Jeff and I don't recall Robinson fancying much of Moore either.

That's what I've been saying.........Rowley seems to think Mayweather has a duty to carry boxing......

Pie in the sky stuff. He would never fight Golovkin. Mayweathers policy is transparent. Either wait for a top fighter to become past it before taking them on or else wait for an ordinary enough challenger to become fashionable/marketable and then strike.

88Chris05 wrote:The Garcia-Armstrong draw was for the legitimate Middleweight title, all things considered. Certainly the most legitimate that was possible at that time. Sorry, nitpicking! Just don't want a myth to grow in these here parts.

It was sanctioned in California Chris that is it, the NYSAC did not consider it a title defence, that isn't a myth it's a fact.

catchweight wrote:Pie in the sky stuff. He would never fight Golovkin. Mayweathers policy is transparent. Either wait for a top fighter to become past it before taking them on or else wait for an ordinary enough challenger to become fashionable/marketable and then strike.

Like Alvarez......

Alvarez was a fine fight, probably the best available at the time. No complaints from me over that fight. But it took a record amount of money and a catchweight agreement to get him to sign up for it.

My issue is the extent that Alvarez is treated as a great fighter. He had fought mostly nobodies, small guys are past its as they built him to stardom and then edged a fight with Trout which could have gone either way. Against Mayweather he was awful. Good win for Mayweather but Alvarez is nothing special despite the publicity he gets. He is the sort of fighter that a Leonard or even a de la Hoya would have taken on without any fuss, but with Mayweather he was treated as the second coming. Thats cool, fights get hyped up, its expected. It shouldnt be such a big deal that Mayweather takes on that kind of fight. That should be par for the course. Alvarez is not a great fighter. Not even as good as a Vargas or Quartey.

Rowley wrote:Not really, does not matter what he was once, it matters what he is now. As a current belt holder at light middle are we really stretching reality to call him a light middle? As such those who would like to see him fight GGG are asking him to go up one division.

Can I ask you a genuine question Truss? Why do you not want to see the fight?

You're really asking him to go up one more division. Floyd seems to be comfortable at welterweight and has gone up and fought at 154lbs.

Using the logic that Floyd holds a belt at 154Lbs, so now should move up to 160lbs, then Sugar Ray Leonard who held a belt at 175lbs should have challenged Evander Holyfield at cruiserweight.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:What about all those who didn't keep moving up Jeff and I don't recall Robinson fancying much of Moore either.

I have said on countless occasions I would not blame him or criticise him for not taking Golovkin on. However I want to see Floyd in a fight I can get excited about, Golovkin is such a fight, nobody below 160 is. Not sure what is so difficult to grasp for folk about my stance on this.

It may be cold comfort Rowley but I completely see your point...however, that just means I hate Mayweather apparently

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:The Garcia-Armstrong draw was for the legitimate Middleweight title, all things considered. Certainly the most legitimate that was possible at that time. Sorry, nitpicking! Just don't want a myth to grow in these here parts.

It was sanctioned in California Chris that is it, the NYSAC did not consider it a title defence, that isn't a myth it's a fact.

Will copy what I wrote on the Boxing 24 forum about this, Hammersmith.

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Between the retirement of Walker and Zale's unification of the division, there was a decade or more of uncertainty in the 160 lb weight class, with various organizations declaring different men as champion, no denying that. But Fred Apostoli had trounced Marcel Thil, who'd defended the IBU version of the title against some good fighters in Europe. The only problem was that the fight took place in New York, and the NYSAC refused to acknowledge anyone other than Freddie Steele, who held their title, as a champion while in that region. Therefore, both Thil and Apostoli were forced to sign a contract saying that neither would proclaim themselves champion regardless of the result. But the fact remains that Apostoli beat one of the (then) 3 titlists at Middleweight for starters (interestingly enough, the IBU would soon wind themselves up in an effort to created unified champions - today's governing bodies, take note).

Meanwhile, the lightly-regarded California State Athletic Commision threw their hat in to an already confused ring by recognising Young Corbett III as their champion when he beat Apostoli. So in effect, by lineage, rights or whatever you want to call it, Corbett should have been seen as both the IBU and California champion. Three months later, the far more respected NYSAC stripped Steele of his title for his failure to defend against Cornett - and so when Corbett and Apostoli rematched, their vacant title was also on the line. This time, Apostoli got it right, and so in effect had won, in the previous 14 months, two of the big three versions of the Middleweight title, as well as another lightly-regarded one.

As such, when Garcia shocked him to defeat (Ceferino was largely considered a soft touch beforehand, having been beaten by both Armstrong and Ross in 147 lb title fights), Ceferino could certainly claim to be the closest thing the division had to a 'man who beat the man' in 1938. Granted, the NBA were busy proclaiming their own individuals as champion, but neither Hostak nor Krieger had been doing the round robin against opposition as good as the aforementioned men - it's not until Zale took their title, AFTER Armstrong boxed a draw against Garcia, that their title really carried the same weight as the others, as far as I'm concerned.

It's unfortunate that the NYSAC, along with the IBU who were no defunct, refused to fully acknowledge Garcia-Armstrong as a Middleweight title fight on the basis of the two men being so small, as the pair of them had more than proven their credentials. But don't let that California State Athletic Commission title line on BoxRec fool you - Garcia had every right to call himself the legitimate Middleweight champion of the world in 1940, and it's a testament to Armstrong's greatness that he was probably unlucky not to win that title in that fight, too.

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So while it wasn't for all the baubles and wasn't recognised as 100%, I struggle to see anyone with a better claim to the Middleweight title than Garcia in 1938. He can count himself pretty unlucky that his claim wasn't recognised more widely than it was.

DAVE667 wrote:It may be cold comfort Rowley but I completely see your point...however, that just means I hate Mayweather apparently

It is more comfort than perhaps it should be dave, was beginning to think I was going slightly mad.

I share your pain Jeff. I don't care how big his opponents are, I'd just like to see him in a competitive fight, maybe come through a bit of adversity etc.

Ok, I'd quite like to see him get a kicking as well, but that's not the sole reason!

If he's restricted to  taking on fighters of the same weight, and no human on the planet can touch him. Maybe we could take a bit of a roman attitude, he could fight a leopard... They come in at about 140. Just thinking laterally, before anyone gets on my case.

Rowley wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:It may be cold comfort Rowley but I completely see your point...however, that just means I hate Mayweather apparently

It is more comfort than perhaps it should be dave, was beginning to think I was going slightly mad.

Nothing wrong with suggesting that the best fighter on the planet face someone with more than a reasonable chance of beating him. Floyd claims he's better than Robinson and Leonard but seems afraid to risk the almighty 0 by taking on a challenge that may be a step too far.

Robinson went up to LH at the tail end of his career and barring the occasionally brain scrambled monkey, no-one uses it as a stick to beat him with.

We all know what Floyd can do, we want to see if there's anything he can't do...and stepping up to MW fits into that catagory

I'd like to see him in a competitive fight too, wouldn't mind seeing him struggle, get off the floor to win an epic fight. Just don't think that he needs to move up another division if he doesn't want to.

If he does move up again and easily beats everyone at middle, does he have to move up again to 168lbs?

Atila wrote:I'd like to see him in a competitive fight too, wouldn't mind seeing him struggle, get off the floor to win an epic fight. Just don't think that he needs to move up another division if he doesn't want to.

If he does move up again and easily beats everyone at middle, does he have to move up again to 168lbs?

Why not, he himself says "you wanna be great, do great things" He goes to 168 and loses even I'd be hard pressed to use it against him in his overall rankings. He lost but at least he tried.

Look at RJJ, moving up to HW was seen as outrageous. Yes he picked the poorest HW champ of the lot and had no desire to defend the belt but the audacity of wanting to do it in the first place is what will always endear RJJ to boxing fans irrespective of how his career stuttered afterwards.

What's Floyd done that's as remarkable...except convince people he's worth $37million for a sparring session?