POLL: Is Floyd A Top 10 ATG In Your Opinion?

by Strongback Wed 26 Feb 2014, 11:56 am

First topic message reminder :

No need to leave a comment just vote.......

by Rowley Fri 28 Feb 2014, 10:21 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:On what basis do you have Gans and Pep top then, what fellow greats did they beat because the best opponents the pair faced they have a losing record against?

Battling Nelson was an outstanding win for Gans. Not only is Nelson no slouch but in that fight Gans had pretty much everything that could be tip the fight in Nelson's favour thrown at him. The weight he was forced to make was almost suicidal and to still prevail in a finish fight against a guy as teak tough as Nelson is nothing short of extraordinary.

by TopHat24/7 Fri 28 Feb 2014, 10:24 am

88Chris05 wrote:He did say they were in no particular order in fairness, beefster. Don't whip out the '170 pound Conn' line just yet!

Missed that also.

But then, what's the point?

May as well just list 100 boxers you've heard of.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 28 Feb 2014, 10:26 am

I'll whip out Schmelling first I promise..

by Hammersmith harrier Fri 28 Feb 2014, 10:39 am

Rowley wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:On what basis do you have Gans and Pep top then, what fellow greats did they beat because the best opponents the pair faced they have a losing record against?

Battling Nelson was an outstanding win for Gans. Not only is Nelson no slouch but in that fight Gans had pretty much everything that could be tip the fight in Nelson's favour thrown at him. The weight he was forced to make was almost suicidal and to still prevail in a finish fight against a guy as teak tough as Nelson is nothing short of extraordinary.

Nelson was a tough man who could keep going all day but he wasn't anything special, beating him in a fight to the finish is impressive but losing the two return bouts is not. I would not say a win over Nelson is more impressive than Hernandes, Corrales or Castillo, three men with genuine ability aside from a chin.

by Rowley Fri 28 Feb 2014, 10:43 am

Think you do Nelson a bit of a disservice classing him as just a chin. Also discounts the things thrown against Gans in that fight. Short of tying one of Gans' hands behind his back would struggle to think how the promoters could have handicapped him more. Personally no more hold the losses in the return against Gans than I would use Camacho as a stick to beat Ray Leonard with.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 28 Feb 2014, 10:52 am

Absolutely agree..Not every fighter can be a p4p number 1 at 37....

by Strongback Fri 28 Feb 2014, 11:35 am

Rowley wrote:Think you do Nelson a bit of a disservice classing him as just a chin. Also discounts the things thrown against Gans in that fight. Short of tying one of Gans' hands behind his back would struggle to think how the promoters could have handicapped him more. Personally no more hold the losses in the return against Gans than I would use Camacho as a stick to beat Ray Leonard with.

I've just just read Boxrecs main server has now gone into over load. Apparently the boxing world is about to have unleashed on it a new Joe Gans expert of extrodanary virtuosity.

by **ShahenshahG** Fri 28 Feb 2014, 11:56 am

Strongback wrote:
Rowley wrote:Think you do Nelson a bit of a disservice classing him as just a chin. Also discounts the things thrown against Gans in that fight. Short of tying one of Gans' hands behind his back would struggle to think how the promoters could have handicapped him more. Personally no more hold the losses in the return against Gans than I would use Camacho as a stick to beat Ray Leonard with.

I've just just read Boxrecs main server has now gone into over load. Apparently the boxing world is about to have unleashed on it a new Joe Gans expert of extrodanary virtuosity.

by Hammersmith harrier Fri 28 Feb 2014, 1:30 pm

I just don't see Nelson as being much different to a Margarito type, he benefitted from the extended fights of the time.

Strongy you should probably try adding something constructive instead of the repetitive Boxrec jibes.

by hazharrison Fri 28 Feb 2014, 1:35 pm

B.A. BARACUS wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:Toppy I think that BA proved your point perfectly, saying he's not because of A, B and C is all well and good but who does he have inside his top ten.

Just for you HH.....in no particular order.

ALI
LOUIS
SUGAR RAY LEONARD
SUGAR RAY ROBINSON
ROBERTO DURAN
WILLIE PEP
ARMSTRONG
GANS
GREB
LANGFORD

Although not on the list, i would also rate Ezzard Charles, Benny Leonard, Whitaker, JCC, Archie Moore above Floyd.

Honourable mention to RJJ. Despite his lack of top level opposition, i'd rate him above Floyd in terms of sheer talent alone, however a win against BHOP and a heavyweight strap gives him a marked edge in my opinion.

ESPN'S 50 greatest boxers poll from 2007 has Floyd at 48 - since 2007 Mayweather has beaten an over the hill Oscar, Ricky Fatton, a blown up Marquez, a 38 year old Mosley, Ortiz, past his peak Cotto, Guererro and hype job Alvarez.

Whilst that list is subjective, does this series of fights warrant Floyd jumping nearly 40 places and into the top 10 ATG.

I would have Floyd alongside Pacquiao, both have won numerous titles, in an age where titles are not as meaningful. Pacqiuao has the better names on his record, whilst Mayweather remains undefeated and has been more dominant of late

We're on the same page with all of this.

by Strongback Fri 28 Feb 2014, 7:26 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I just don't see Nelson as being much different to a Margarito type, he benefitted from the extended fights of the time.

Strongy you should probably try adding something constructive instead of the repetitive Boxrec jibes.

You should probably do a cursory two minute read of a boxers bio instead of dismissing the fighter based on your quick flick through his Boxrec record. What you do is hardly constructive particularly when one takes cognisance of your personality disorder.

by Hammersmith harrier Fri 28 Feb 2014, 7:32 pm

Rowley wrote:Think you do Nelson a bit of a disservice classing him as just a chin. Also discounts the things thrown against Gans in that fight. Short of tying one of Gans' hands behind his back would struggle to think how the promoters could have handicapped him more. Personally no more hold the losses in the return against Gans than I would use Camacho as a stick to beat Ray Leonard with.

I can't understand your last point there, how can you give him so much credit for winning the first fight but then dismiss the fights he lost?

Nelson was the almost perfect fighter in a fight to the finish, low on ability but unmatched toughness but I don't agree that any win over him regardless of circumstance means a great deal. I wouldn't rate a win over him any higher than a win over Castillo which was my initial point.

Gans benefits in the same way Pep does in these discussions, they as well as Langford are a historians pet fighters, it's the clever thing to rate them highly. All three are great boxers but I do often wonder if they get slightly over rated when their records don't quite back up the praise they receive.

by Hammersmith harrier Fri 28 Feb 2014, 7:35 pm

Strongback wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:I just don't see Nelson as being much different to a Margarito type, he benefitted from the extended fights of the time.

Strongy you should probably try adding something constructive instead of the repetitive Boxrec jibes.

You should probably do a cursory two minute read of a boxers bio instead of dismissing the fighter based on your quick flick through his Boxrec record. What you do is hardly constructive particularly when one takes cognisance of your personality disorder.

If that's how you feel maybe tell me why i'm wrong because aside from Joe Louis you know nothing about anyone. Obviously I came to the conclusion that Nelson relied on toughness because of his record, how you can come to such a conclusion that way I do not know or is maybe that I do know a little bit unlike you Strongy.

by hogey Fri 28 Feb 2014, 7:38 pm

Yes Pep was rubbish he only got to his 63rd fight before he lost, and then the slacking ducker went and got beat for the 2nd time in his 156th fight. Angelo Dundee said he was the best fighter he ever saw, but what would a fool like him know Very Happy

by Hammersmith harrier Fri 28 Feb 2014, 7:41 pm

Where did I actually say he was rubbish Hogey?

I presume you have Chavrz and Wilde higher then because they have the longest unbeaten streaks.

by hogey Fri 28 Feb 2014, 7:54 pm

Mate too be honest comparing an ATG like Willie Pep to a good solid alphabet champion like Castillo is like putting Leonardo Di Vinci alongside Damien Hirst. Go and read up properly about the bloke he was an amazing fighter and plenty who seen him think at his best he was one of the very top fighters of all time, dont rely on the fact you dont recognize the names of many very good Featherweights of the 40s and 50s on BoxRec.
Chavez and Wilde were both great as well by the way.

by Hammersmith harrier Fri 28 Feb 2014, 8:09 pm

Where on gods green earth have I compared Pep to Castillo?

None of these comments are ever constructive, if you disagree explain why because you like Strongy are quick to dismiss opinions but never give any explanation. As far as Pep goes he's the greatest featherweight of all time, the series with Saddler only cements that opinion for me. Foul filled fights where the loser was the one racking up round after round, fight after fight, losing a fight because you've had your shoulder ripped from it's socket doesn't constitute a legitimate win.

by hogey Fri 28 Feb 2014, 8:21 pm

Your comments sounded to me like a bit of a dig at Pep, if i have misconstrued them then my apologies mate.
Bit unfair to say i offer no explanations though, because when its something i am knowledgeable i try to justify my opinion like when we disagreed recently about the Froch v Taylor fight i gave great detail on why i thought the fight was a one sided mismatch up until the amazing comeback KO from Froch and in fairness you offered not a bean to support your opinion. Still i wont hold it against you mate, we all got our opinions i just dont feel the need to get personal when people dont agree with me.

by Hammersmith harrier Fri 28 Feb 2014, 8:27 pm

I was comparing Battling Nelson to Castillo.

Is it really a dig to say I believe he has an ever so slightly elevated status in the sport?

The thing I find most bizarre is how Langford is almost always rated higher than Fitzsimmons, does he benefit from not winning a world title and historians compensate by rating him higher.

by Rowley Fri 28 Feb 2014, 10:17 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
I can't understand your last point there, how can you give him so much credit for winning the first fight but then dismiss the fights he lost?

I dismiss the last bouts because Gans was pretty much a shell in those fights, he had been fighting at welter in the intervening period as he could barely make lightweight but did it because that was where the money was, and in the era, black fighters, even ones as good as Gans could not afford to be picky. Pretty much every report on his fights post his first Nelson fitht remarks that he was never the same after that epic battle. I have even seen arguments made (quite compellingly I should add) that Gans was already in the grip of the tuberculosis that would kill him little more than a year later.

by Hammersmith harrier Fri 28 Feb 2014, 10:29 pm

Call me cynical Jeff but I don't believe for a second that anybody suffering from TB continues to compete at the highest level. It may be true that the first fight took a lot out of him but the same is also true of Nelson who's famed durability was starting to desert him. Moran wasn't a famed puncher at featherweight but was dropping him at will with his right hand at the end.

by Rowley Fri 28 Feb 2014, 10:38 pm

I don't think it is at all unreasonable to believe he had strands of the disease. Countless newspaper reports from 1904 onwards note a lack of strength in his wrok and a general listlessness about him. From what I understand it is possible to be infected with TB for it to be dormant and as such not display its full ravaging effects. Is Gans fighting whilst suffering this illness any more fantastical or far fetched than Billy Miske continuing to fight whilst gripped by Brights disease?

by Hammersmith harrier Fri 28 Feb 2014, 10:47 pm

It's a fair point with regards to Miske and his health issues are publicised a bit more but being a well liked white fighter of the time that's to be expected. However anybody going 20 rounds with Nelson can't be that debilitated, maybe i'm being overly critical but I don't see it myself. I do think Gans is in a fairly unique position in that he was a good 20 years ahead of his time and as such an important pioneer of the sweet science he deserves a bit more credit compared to latter day boxers.

by **ShahenshahG** Sat 01 Mar 2014, 11:25 am

Has anyone read clay moyles book on billy miske?

by Rowley Sat 01 Mar 2014, 11:48 am

I have shah. Well worth a read mate

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