Oh christ, another Floyd thread.

[superflyweight]

Spoiler:

 
Decent if unspectacular article about Floyd from the Guardian Sports Network.  Fairly well balanced and covers some of the key points better (and with more perspective) than they tend to be discussed on here.

[ShahenshahG]

Not working mate - Problem with the guardian site

[hazharrison]

Pretty much the same thing some of us on here have been saying for some time.

[superflyweight]

Not working mate - Problem with the guardian site

Possibly - I just tried it again so it should work.

[TopHat24/7]

Works fine for me.

[ShahenshahG]

Yeah its working now

[catchweight]

They are being generous to Mayweather in regards to fighters hes avoided. Since he faced de la Hoya hes pretty much made a career out of avoiding the most dangerous welterweights and opting for easier or faded opponents.

[TopHat24/7]

Ok article but nothing to get excited about. Doesn't really say anything new and seems quick to excuse in areas.

As with most things printed in the Guardian, it gets nothing more than a 'meh', from me.

[Boxtthis]

Not too much I disagree with in this. As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle of the two ridiculous extremes that we see so much of.

[TRUSSMAN66]

The problem the detractors have got are that we have a guy who has been at the top of the game in some capacity for 16 odd years.........Maybe for some of that his activity was on the quiet side but Hagler fought once in two years as middle champ..........Mugabi....The only guy he fought from Apr 1985 - April 1987..

That is an unheard of amount of time for one to be unbeaten.........

Whatever you say about his cherry picking..His win column reads better than (Who is top 10 In many lists) Joe Louis.........Who is basically rated on longevity.........

The fact is you are judged on who you fight and not who you don't............Hence Johnson, Dempsey types being amongst the top flyers of the Heavyweight division...

I know it hurts but unfortunately these points I've made are true..

Let's not argue about it.....and Instead give Trussy a kiss with no tongues !!  

[TopHat24/7]

The problem the detractors have got are that we have a guy who has been at the top of the game in some capacity for 16 odd years.........Maybe for some of that his activity was on the quiet side but Hagler fought once in two years as middle champ..........Mugabi....The only guy he fought from Apr 1985 - April 1987..

That is an unheard of amount of time for one to be unbeaten.........

Whatever you say about his cherry picking..His win column reads better than (Who is top 10 In many lists) Joe Louis.........Who is basically rated on longevity.........

The fact is you are judged on who you fight and not who you don't............Hence Johnson, Dempsey types being amongst the top flyers of the Heavyweight division...

I know it hurts but unfortunately these points I've made are true..

Let's not argue about it.....and Instead give Trussy a kiss with no tongues !!  

Not really, given that he only fights once a year.

Pep fought 60 odd times without sustaining his first loss - just happens he did that in about 3 years not 20.

[TRUSSMAN66]

He's fought 29 times in 15 and a half years since winning the title.......

Good a ratio as Hagler's ................

How often did Dempsey/Johnson fight "post title win" mate ? You have heard of them I expect ??

[TopHat24/7]

'The' title or 'A' title?

Back to that old chestnut of saying Floyd was 'at the top' as soon as he won his first trinket.

What's his fight ratio since ODLH? That's more representative of when he'd be, objectively, considered 'at the top'.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Smoke screening..........

[88Chris05]

Relatively balanced piece, overall. Thanks for posting, Superfly.
 
Couple of minor quibbles. No doubt in my mind that it was Floyd who put up far more obstacles preventing the Pacquiao fight than anyone else.
 
On the subject of the Winky 'duck.' I'll cut Floyd pretty much all of the slack there. People forget that, in 2004 - early 2006 when the fight was (briefly) being talked up, Winky was actually the bigger earner and puller of the pair (in the summer of 2005, Mayweather had taken the short end of the purse against Gatti, for instance) and Mayweather was yet to become a real PPV attraction in his own right.
 
Wright had spent a lot of his career in the shadows of Oscar, Mosley, Trinidad etc; after he whipped Mosley twice in 2004 he announced himself on the real big stage, and then of course he bagged a big-money showdown with Trinidad, who had long since become a massive ticket seller and who had a crazed army of fanatical Puerto Ricans following him.
 
He was the undisputed king at 154 who had also earned a mandatory shot at 160 a couple of months before Floyd beat Gatti in 2005. Mayweather didn't graduate to 147 until 2006. Agreeing to jump up to Light-Middle, even if Wright couldn't scale more than 162 lb on fight night, would have been a very, very bold move and from what I've seen and read on the issue, it was Wright, now with a bigger eye on gate receipts as he came towards the tail end of his career with his new-found high profile and with options across two weights, who ended up playing a bit of hard ball and eventually decided to look elsewhere. Don't think Mayweather was really in any position to give Wright the run around at that point, and I'm surprised looking back that the fight was ever really that much of a talking point.
 
Their careers just didn't coincide or overlap with each other's enough to really make an accusation of ducking by either party, for me. By the time Mayweather had dipped his toes at Light-Middle, Winky was, for some strange reason, having his head turned by the opportunity to contest a 170 lb catchweight fight against Hopkins.
 
Mayweather deserves a kicking over the Pacquiao saga. A smaller one over not fighting Cotto in 2008 - but if he'd taken on and beaten Manny a couple of years after that, the Cotto issue would have become pretty much inconsequential. Those two aside, most claims of Mayweather outright ducking or running scared of fighters seem to be reaching a little bit, for me - although if he doesn't find time to accommodate an actual boxer, someone quick and with good movement, very soon (Bradley, Lara etc) then I'll take umbrage!

[catchweight]

People dont like to use the word duck with Mayweather because they think he he would have beaten all of the guys he avoided. But after he beat de la Hoya he had a pretty decent division of the likes of Cotto, Margarito, Mosley, Williams and before too long Pacquaio as well. He opted to fight Hatton and then retire for a couple years. When all the actual top rated welterweights had fought each other he opportunistically came back calling up another non-welterweight Marquez who was a lightweight supposed to fight at catchweight. The sales pitch was Marquez was a "poud for pound" top fighter. But he had never fought at welter, took the fight looking flabby and in it for a pay day and Mayweather didnt even stick to the catchweight. After that it was old man Mosley up who was miles past his best. Its an unforgivably poor return. Hatton and Marquez would be fine if he took on the top welters as well (which were tougher fights). But the excuse is that he had to choose one or the other. Nonsense. He could have fought them all. But he didnt fancy big strong welters like Margarito and Williams because he had easier fights he could take instead. Cotto was too high risk and Paquaio is still too high risk. He could well have beaten them all but he opted for a much safer an easier route. (Pacquiao, Cotto and Williams at welterweight would have been very tough fights)

[Rowley]

I agree/disagree with every word of this article (delete as appropriate)

[kingraf]

Comfortable fence you sitting on, Rowley?

[Rowley]

To be honest Raf, have not even read the article.

[kingraf]

Neither have I... like the article states... Oh Christ another Floyd thread.

[Guest]

I don't even know who you're all talking about. Is it Bradley Pryce?

[kingraf]

Neither have I... like the article states... Oh Christ another Floyd thread.

[mobilemaster8]

The same Williams that got sparked by Sergio in two rounds?

The same Margarito that Shane Mosley knocked the f**k out?

was Williams ever REALLY a top Welter?

Mosley only got the fight after beating the man that beat the man.

Marg crushed Cotto, Mosley crushed Marg and Floyd battered Mosley (who incidentally was his toughest test prior....but had aged and was on decline after).

Undefeated Hatton.....Undefeated future superstar and massive test in Alvarez......many of whom picked to beat Floyd.....the guy cant get any slack.

Whilst he is dominating the likes of JMM and undefeated Alvarez, his arch nemesis is getting knocked out by JMM or beating up the likes of Brandon Rios in China.

so when it comes to ducking and records, who has the better post de la hoya?

Pacquiao:

De La Hoya @ 147lbs?!?!?
Hatton
JMM twice
Margarito @ 151lbs
Clottey
Mosley
Rios
Bradley


Floyd:

JMM (no need for two fights)
Mosley (prior to pac)
Hatton (prior to pac)
Ortiz
Alvarez
Guerrero


swings and round about, their both great and have fought quality.

I feel Floyd has fought the better fighters post de la hoya.

Prior to that, Morales and Barerra are fantastic names.....floyd had Castillo, Corrales.

Great careers but I feel Floyd eclipses it slightly zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.......

sorry what were we talking about?!

[hazharrison]

The same Williams that got sparked by Sergio in two rounds?

The same Margarito that Shane Mosley knocked the f**k out?

was Williams ever REALLY a top Welter?

Mosley only got the fight after beating the man that beat the man.

Marg crushed Cotto, Mosley crushed Marg and Floyd battered Mosley (who incidentally was his toughest test prior....but had aged and was on decline after).

Undefeated Hatton.....Undefeated future superstar and massive test in Alvarez......many of whom picked to beat Floyd.....the guy cant get any slack.

Whilst he is dominating the likes of JMM and undefeated Alvarez, his arch nemesis is getting knocked out by JMM or beating up the likes of Brandon Rios in China.

so when it comes to ducking and records, who has the better post de la hoya?

Pacquiao:

De La Hoya @ 147lbs?!?!?
Hatton
JMM twice
Margarito @ 151lbs
Clottey
Mosley
Rios
Bradley


Floyd:

JMM (no need for two fights)
Mosley (prior to pac)
Hatton (prior to pac)
Ortiz
Alvarez
Guerrero


swings and round about, their both great and have fought quality.

I feel Floyd has fought the better fighters post de la hoya.

Prior to that, Morales and Barerra are fantastic names.....floyd had Castillo, Corrales.

Great careers but I feel Floyd eclipses it slightly zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.......

sorry what were we talking about?!

Yes. Williams was a top welterweight. He was such a good welterweight he had trouble getting fights - hence the fact he volunteered to take on anyone from 147-160 (the Martinez defeat took place at middleweight, as did their first titanic battle).

I think Floyd and Pac's records are a wash post Oscar. Pacquiao has the bigger wins pre-Oscar.

[mobilemaster8]

Id agree Haz. Thinking back i think everyone avoided Williams. Wasn't he a 6ft 3 giant at Welter?!

Shame about the accident because he was signed to fight Alvarez i think?

Floyds and Pacs records can be compared forever....but floyds wins over Alvarez and JMM are soooo much better than Pacs wins over say Rios, Marg, Clottey etc.

They should just fight and shut everyone up.

[AlexHuckerby]

1/) Williams couldn't actually sell a ticket, I know thats not the way it should be looked at but it's true

2.) Floyd beat Hatton in 2007, same with De La Hoya, two massive wins for him. In 2008 he made his haitus in the sport where Williams in 2007 made his name in beating Margarito and announcing him on the big stage. Floyd had a window of facing Williams in early 2008, however Williams then got completely worked over by Carlos Quintana let's not forget and was then labeled as a total hype job for a while. He then recovered and attempted to get his career back on track and rematched Quintana and moved up to LMW to beat a washed up Winky Wright, yes everyone was a bit wary of Williams due to him being a Southpaw that 6"2 but let's not overblow him as this guy who Mayweather mercilessly ducked...

[Hammersmith harrier]

Williams couldn't get fights because the top men could make more money elsewhere, his top level career at Welterweight consists of very nearly throwing the Margarito fight down the pan, getting embarrassed by Quintana then wiping him out in the return. It was the money issue rather than any great ability that stopped him getting the big fights, Cotto and Mosley brought the money and the prestige to a fight.

Cotto and Pacquiao are the two fights that should have happened, Margarito and Williams are not the level of fighter that turns a great fighter into an even greater fighter.

[catchweight]

Mayweather didnt want Williams because there were easier fights. He didnt want Margarito because there were easier fights. He didnt want Cotto because there were easier fights. He didnt want Pacquiao because there were easier fights. Hes getting 30 million and can fight whoever he wants and he picks Maidana (2nd choice in a 2 man poll). The pattern isnt hard to spot.

Add up all the guys post de la Hoya who Mayweather could have fought but didnt and compare them to the ones he did:

Hatton (not a top welter)
Marquez (lightweight)
Mosley (well past it)
Guerrero
Ortiz
Maidana

And the ones he missed:

Cotto
Pacquiao
Williams
Margarito
Bradley

I wonder which list provides the tougher welterweight matches

[Hammersmith harrier]

The past it Shane Mosley who smashed Margarito all around the ring Catchweight or what about the amazing Williams who was busy losing to Quintana. Cotto and Pacquiao are the only stand outs in that second list while Bradley has made his name robbing Pacquiao and then beating a Mayweather victim in Marquez.

[3fingers]

Personally I think mayweather avoided margarito and williams at welter...

Mayweather was a big punching sfw, certainly in the upper echelons, however he's a much more modest puncher at ww (and above). He's tended to negate all tall rangy welters (and above). Since his sfw days weight days he's never given away more than an inch in height. He fought corales, a giant at the weight, but had great power to overcome the threat. At welter (and above) he doesn't have that advantage, therefore he's avoided big welters (and above) because his countering style, mainly comprising single counter right hands and lead hooks, would not be effective against welters with long levers. Hence he avoided williams.

[catchweight]

He could of fought them all and his excuses for not fighting them die on their arse when you look at who he fought instead. A collections of past its, mediocres and blown ups. The tough welters got dodged.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Cotto and Pacquiao were the tough Welters, the rest are just part of the bunch, I would love to see what you would say had he fought Margarito after he'd lost to Mosley or Williams.

[catchweight]

I wouldnt care if he missed Margarito and fought Cotto and Pacquiao. But he didnt. He just avoided all the toughest welters. He is an opportunist. Few would have a problem if he missed one name. When you miss Pacquiao AND Cotto AND Margarito AND Williams well then the writing is on the wall and the message is loud and clear.

[Hammersmith harrier]

This is where you go one step too far the issue is Cotto and Pacquiao, the other two don't come into it, you hate to accept it but Hatton was more highly regarded than both of them back in 2007.

[catchweight]

Hatton was a smaller, easier version of Margarito and Williams. And who cares anyone? I dont mind a fighter taking on a Hatton when he takes care of his main rivals. People act like he couldnt have possibly have fought any of the others. He left the division when it was toughening up and let all the other top welters beat each other up while he played his game. Margarito would have been a big fight after he beat Cotto - bigger and more legit than a Guerrero or Maidana. Cotto was an unbeaten Peurto Rican sensation at one stage (bigger fight than Hatton). His policy is so transparent. Find a "hook" with which to sell an easier fight (easy to do in these days of hyperbole) and then make excuses for avoiding tougher fights. If there arent any easy hooks out there, just wait a while to one appears or until a once top fighter has faded. Hes just cherry picked around the place for years now. Maidana is his next fight and in Mayweathers own paraphrased words he couldnt give a crap because he gets paid no matter what.

[3fingers]

The fact remains he's fought styles, and physiques, appropriate to his style wherever possible.

He'll always choose plodder over a fleet footed and fast combination puncher.

Or he'll always choose a fighter of comparative stature rather than give away both substantial height and power.

[3fingers]

I agree with catchweight even though I think floyd is a phenomenal fighter, and undoubtedly the most talented of his generation.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Cotto wasn't a bigger fight than Hatton at the time, at that specific time there was nobody in or around the division he hadn't faced who brought in as many fans and interest as Hatton.

None of what you've just typed is the perception of the time, in 2007 Hatton was considered to be the man with the tools to beat him not Margarito and certainly not Williams. You can go back and rewrite history all you want but when it was less than seven years ago involving a british sporting superstar these things stick in your head quite a bit.

We shouldn't even be considering Margarito anyway, he's a known cheat who lost to that old past it Mosley you mentioned earlier. I'll rephrase that he didn't just lose, he was smashed from pillar to post, Mosley showed him up for just what he was that night, a flat track cheating bully.

[Hammersmith harrier]

The fact remains he's fought styles, and physiques, appropriate to his style wherever possible.

He'll always choose plodder over a fleet footed and fast combination puncher.

Or he'll always choose a fighter of comparative stature rather than give away both substantial height and power.

You have watched Williams fight right? Not exactly known for utilising his long reach, if anything he negates his reach himself by being an inside volume fighter with no real jab.

[catchweight]

Forget Hatton, are you saying that because he fought Hatton he therefore couldnt fight a top welterweight? He missed out fighting the toughest welterweights. Apart from when Mosley was past it, rusty and looking for a pay day that is. If you want to stick to the 50 million excuses for why he manages to find ways to fight hyped up Hispanics or past it fighters instead of the actual toughest welterweights knock yourself out. I think the fact he avoided managing to face all of Pacquiao, Cotto, Margarito and Williams speaks for itself. Mayweather is about making big money for the lowest possible risk. Its in his nickname.

[AlexHuckerby]

Mayweather didnt want Williams because there were easier fights. He didnt want Margarito because there were easier fights. He didnt want Cotto because there were easier fights. He didnt want Pacquiao because there were easier fights. Hes getting 30 million and can fight whoever he wants and he picks Maidana (2nd choice in a 2 man poll). The pattern isnt hard to spot.

Add up all the guys post de la Hoya who Mayweather could have fought but didnt and compare them to the ones he did:

Hatton (not a top welter)
Marquez (lightweight)
Mosley (well past it)
Guerrero
Ortiz
Maidana

And the ones he missed:

Cotto
Pacquiao
Williams
Margarito
Bradley

I wonder which list provides the tougher welterweight matches

Haha, it isn't difficult to write an arguement against this though really.

Hatton, undefeated and at the time was considered the biggest threat to him and had the world wanting to see the fight.

Marquez was genuinely regarded as P4P no 2. on the planet at the time with Manny as No. 1 having arguably beaten him twice, with Manny arguably being the guy who posed him the biggest threat.

Mosley, coming off a huge win that put him as the number 1 Welterweight again. Mosley beat Marg, who beat Cotto, who beat Mosley that put Cotto at the top of the WW division at that particular time...

Ortiz, newly crowned champion after coming off of a fantastic win against Berto in what many thought was FOTY, was a "young hungry lion", you may laugh but a fair old time the older guys do occasionally struggle going back through history fighting the upcoming hungry fighter.

Guerrero, multiple weight world champion, hadn't been beaten in a long time, had two good wins at the weight, one against unbeaten Aydin and one in another FOTY against Berto.

Maidana, can hit very hard just beaten the supposed next big thing in Broner... Etc.

With the ones he didn't fight, some excuses can be thrown in there. He took a 2 year absence, you can label this as ducking, it depends on what way you wanna look at it really mate.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Forget Hatton, are you saying that because he fought Hatton he therefore couldnt fight a top welterweight? He missed out fighting the toughest welterweights. Apart from when Mosley was past it, rusty and looking for a pay day that is. If you want to stick to the 50 million excuses for why he manages to find ways to fight hyped up Hispanics or past it fighters instead of the actual toughest welterweights knock yourself out. I think the fact he avoided managing to face all of Pacquiao, Cotto, Margarito and Williams speaks for itself. Mayweather is about making big money for the lowest possible risk. Its in his nickname.

Repeating the same line about Margarito and Williams isn't going to make them magically better than those he has faced, that's the thing with those two he's faced better so it's a fairly mute point.

[catchweight]

Mayweather didnt want Williams because there were easier fights. He didnt want Margarito because there were easier fights. He didnt want Cotto because there were easier fights. He didnt want Pacquiao because there were easier fights. Hes getting 30 million and can fight whoever he wants and he picks Maidana (2nd choice in a 2 man poll). The pattern isnt hard to spot.

Add up all the guys post de la Hoya who Mayweather could have fought but didnt and compare them to the ones he did:

Hatton (not a top welter)
Marquez (lightweight)
Mosley (well past it)
Guerrero
Ortiz
Maidana

And the ones he missed:

Cotto
Pacquiao
Williams
Margarito
Bradley

I wonder which list provides the tougher welterweight matches

Haha, it isn't difficult to write an arguement against this though really.

Hatton, undefeated and at the time was considered the biggest threat to him and had the world wanting to see the fight.

Marquez was genuinely regarded as P4P no 2. on the planet at the time with Manny as No. 1 having arguably beaten him twice, with Manny arguably being the guy who posed him the biggest threat.

Mosley, coming off a huge win that put him as the number 1 Welterweight again. Mosley beat Marg, who beat Cotto, who beat Mosley that put Cotto at the top of the WW division at that particular time...

Ortiz, newly crowned champion after coming off of a fantastic win against Berto in what many thought was FOTY, was a "young hungry lion", you may laugh but a fair old time the older guys do occasionally struggle going back through history fighting the upcoming hungry fighter.

Guerrero, multiple weight world champion, hadn't been beaten in a long time, had two good wins at the weight, one against unbeaten Aydin and one in another FOTY against Berto.

Maidana, can hit very hard just beaten the supposed next big thing in Broner... Etc.

With the ones he didn't fight, some excuses can be thrown in there. He took a 2 year absence, you can label this as ducking, it depends on what way you wanna look at it really mate.

Thats the hyberbole hooks they sell these fights with. The reality the avoided list are by far the tougher welterweights. Mayweather knows this.

[catchweight]

Forget Hatton, are you saying that because he fought Hatton he therefore couldnt fight a top welterweight? He missed out fighting the toughest welterweights. Apart from when Mosley was past it, rusty and looking for a pay day that is. If you want to stick to the 50 million excuses for why he manages to find ways to fight hyped up Hispanics or past it fighters instead of the actual toughest welterweights knock yourself out. I think the fact he avoided managing to face all of Pacquiao, Cotto, Margarito and Williams speaks for itself. Mayweather is about making big money for the lowest possible risk. Its in his nickname.

Repeating the same line about Margarito and Williams isn't going to make them magically better than those he has faced, that's the thing with those two he's faced better so it's a fairly mute point.

If you think a Hatton, Maidana, Ortiz or Guerrero wouldnt get absolutely pasted by Margarito or Williams then you need help.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Ortiz probably but the others I genuinely don't, think you massively over rate the pair for no other reason than it's a stick to beat Mayweather with. What you conveniently forget is that Margarito wasn't actually very good without his hand wraps while Williams was nothing special.

[3fingers]

For what its worth I think margo and williams beat those four at welter, why would you think otherwise?

[catchweight]

Williams was good enough to beat Martinez. He was an absolute monster at welterweight. Maybe the biggest in history. That alone made him a nightmare. Nobody knew Margarito had the hand wraps at the time. He was a big, powerful and iron chinned. Those guys wouldnt have a hope against them. Their combined welterweight record is pathetic and they are about half the size. It would painful watching Hatton, Maidana or Ortiz flail away at those guys and Guerrero hasnt a hope.

[88Chris05]

Can't agree that Hatton in 2007 was a bigger fight than Cotto, Hammersmith. Although I agree that Hatton was in higher demand than both Margarito and Williams at that point.

Mayweather fought Cotto when Cotto had already had to absorb a couple of horrible beatings, after Cotto had fallen out of the top ten pound for pound list and when Cotto was a 5/1 underdog - and the fight still generated 1.5 million PPV buys as well as being one of the top two / three non-Heavyweight bouts in history in terms of purse, gate receipts, revenue etc.

A 2007 / 2008 fight against an unbeaten Cotto, in the top five pound for pound and with the odds almost certainly a lot kinder to Miguel would have been far more intriguing and certainly would have outstripped Hatton-Mayweather from a financial point of view, for me. The Mayweather fight was Hatton's first PPV fight in the States, and let's be honest, against anyone else he wouldn't have been PPV. On the other hand, Cotto had already made that step against Mosley and did so again when he fought Margarito a few months later, both of them doing about half a million buys each I believe.

Hatton was a good fight for Mayweather at the time, perfectly legit and a big money maker, too - but in both areas I think it was second in line to Mayweather-Cotto in that late 2007 period.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Margarito we shouldn't even be considering in this, the guy was caught with plaster of paris and frankly wasn't that great, serious question marks of his win over Cotto. Williams was good but nothing more than that, he likes to fight inside and he smothers his own work, had awful accuracy and a leaky defence. Hatton was a lot cleaner with his work inside and quicker, the same is true of Guerrero too.

[catchweight]

Cleaner work? He would charge into a Margarito or Williams who dwarf the poor guy, have better chins and are vastly stronger and more powerful. Clean work doesnt come into it. Hatton gets mauled like a rag doll.

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