Oh christ, another Floyd thread.

[superflyweight]

First topic message reminder :

Spoiler:

 
Decent if unspectacular article about Floyd from the Guardian Sports Network.  Fairly well balanced and covers some of the key points better (and with more perspective) than they tend to be discussed on here.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Can't agree that Hatton in 2007 was a bigger fight than Cotto, Hammersmith. Although I agree that Hatton was in higher demand than both Margarito and Williams at that point.

Mayweather fought Cotto when Cotto had already had to absorb a couple of horrible beatings, after Cotto had fallen out of the top ten pound for pound list and when Cotto was a 5/1 underdog - and the fight still generated 1.5 million PPV buys as well as being one of the top two / three non-Heavyweight bouts in history in terms of purse, gate receipts, revenue etc.

A 2007 / 2008 fight against an unbeaten Cotto, in the top five pound for pound and with the odds almost certainly a lot kinder to Miguel would have been far more intriguing and certainly would have outstripped Hatton-Mayweather from a financial point of view, for me. The Mayweather fight was Hatton's first PPV fight in the States, and let's be honest, against anyone else he wouldn't have been PPV. On the other hand, Cotto had already made that step against Mosley and did so again when he fought Margarito a few months later, both of them doing about half a million buys each I believe.

Hatton was a good fight for Mayweather at the time, perfectly legit and a big money maker, too - but in both areas I think it was second in line to Mayweather-Cotto in that late 2007 period.

Cotto didn't hit the big time until he beat Mosley which was a month earlier than the Hatton fight nor did he have such a devoted passionate following, a lot changed after those two fights. The Judah fight had decent interest but that was helped by fighting a New Yorker in New York which was also true of the Malignaggi fight. There's a bit of a difference between a fighter who brings 20,000 fans with him and a fighter who does decent number on PPV which was against a future hall of famer and big name.

There's not a lot in it and before those two fights it was Hatton who was seen as the riskier option, bizarre in hindsight but the Americans were creaming themselves over Hatton after the Castillo fight.

[3fingers]

From what ive seen of williams he's more than happy to fight at range but will trade in close when an opponent comes to fight, or takes center ring. Another time he fights inside is when he's looking for a finish, I guess he feels he can....when your throwing bombs in close only the best and toughest will fire back.

I'd like to think that with the time floyd allows his opponents (by fighting on the back foot) would ensure williams kept him long. I can't see how a light punching ww version of floyd deals with a 6 foot two inch monster. Its very dissimilar to when he fought corrales..... because at sfw he had power on his side.

[3fingers]

Even if we accept Hatton was the bigger draw it doesn't mean he was a sturdier challenge. It look to me that floyyd chose the easier fight for the bigger money.

[Hammersmith harrier]

I've got to ask in what fights have you seen Williams fight at range?

You're using a bit too much hindsight there, it's easy to forget how highly regarded Hatton was before the Mayweather fight, he was not seen as a soft fight in the slightest.

[3fingers]

He wasnt seen as a soft touch because the boxing machinery was doing its job.

[AlexHuckerby]

From what ive seen of williams he's more than happy to fight at range but will trade in close when an opponent comes to fight, or takes center ring. Another time he fights inside is when he's looking for a finish, I guess he feels he can....when your throwing bombs in close only the best and toughest will fire back.

I'd like to think that with the time floyd allows his opponents (by fighting on the back foot) would ensure williams kept him long. I can't see how a light punching ww version of floyd deals with a 6 foot two inch monster. Its very dissimilar to when he fought corrales..... because at sfw he had power on his side.

A rather average fighter already showed how to beat Williams off the back foot the year that these two could have met 3fingers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxHGFGiEFVE

Floyd couldn't do this? Gimme a break...

[3fingers]

Every time I've seen him he's fought behind a rubbish south paw jab then stepped inside to throw long range hooking bombs, however due to his size, his inside fighting is his opponents medium range.

[3fingers]

Havent seen the fight alex, ill watch it now.

[Hammersmith harrier]

He wasnt seen as a soft touch because the boxing machinery was doing its job.

He wasn't seen as a soft touch because he'd just taken Castillo out with the picture perfect left hook to the body. I appreciate you don't rate Mayweather but there's no need to make out that Hatton wasn't seen as a genuine threat to Mayweathers unbeaten record.

[3fingers]

Thats the first round watched. Anything but a back foot fighter in that round. Things could always change though...

[AlexHuckerby]

He wasnt seen as a soft touch because the boxing machinery was doing its job.

He wasn't seen as a soft touch because he'd just taken Castillo out with the picture perfect left hook to the body. I appreciate you don't rate Mayweather but there's no need to make out that Hatton wasn't seen as a genuine threat to Mayweathers unbeaten record.

Hatton most certainly wasn't a soft touch, however let's not use Castilo as the reason. Castillo genuinely was shot. Emmanuel Steward said it part way through the fight and after the knockout. Castillo was shot, I don't use that word very often either, because there's past your best, but Castillo was shot.

[3fingers]

I agree with catchweight even though I think floyd is a phenomenal fighter, undoubtedly the most talented of his generation.

yeah hammer, I dont rate floyd.

[AlexHuckerby]

Thats the first round watched. Anything but a back foot fighter in that round. Things could always change though...

I felt like the majority of the fight he was countering and circling around Williams to be honest, if you don't think Mayweather could do it against Williams after seeing the full fight I would raise an eyebrow at you, The Rock style.

[3fingers]

Thats the second round watched alex, does it follow this format? I dont see a back foot fighter, I see some being pushed back by a bigger man. I see some one moving around the ring then stepping in with aggressive combinations and pummelling his opponent in close. Do I need to watch tge rest of the fight to see this back foot fighterbin the moukd of floyd?

[88Chris05]

It was definitely an anticipated fight, Hammersmith, but I can't forget the fact that Hatton hadn't been given particularly good reviews in the States for his showings against Collazo and Urango. He put that right against Castillo, to be fair to him, but even then I get the impression looking back that HBO were much bigger on a potential fight with Cotto than they were with Hatton. After Ricky stopped Castillo, even before the broadcast ended I remember the HBO team trying to emphasise how shot Castillo had looked and how dull Hatton-Urango had been a few months beforehand. I'd agree that Judah and Mosley at that stage flattered to deceive, but Cotto still rightly made more waves beating those two the way he did than Hatton did for getting past Collazo, Urango and Castillo in the eighteen months before fighting Floyd.

Hatton had a loyal, passionate following from the UK alright, but in terms of PPV buys Stateside I'm not convinced that Hatton would have been the bigger option financially. Cotto got himself on to PPV without Mayweather, whereas I'm not sure Hatton could have done.

Anyway, his fan base doesn't make Hatton the better fighter and while he was hot property in 2007, Cotto's form had been better-looking and he'd not had any terrible struggles or really dull fights like Hatton had experienced. I think in this country we obviously foamed at the mouth for the Hatton fight, but my impression was always that in the States the fight was seen as legitimate, big and exciting, but that Cotto further down the line was always going to be 'the one.'

I remember Steward after the Hatton fight commenting that in 2007 Mayweather had done a good job of cleverly taking the ever so slightly less risky fights while still earning an absolute bomb, but that it was now time to press on and tackle the really elite challenges out there (as a side note, it was also during the Hatton fight that Steward commented that, to him, Mayweather wasn't really a truly great fighter or a legend, and that comparing him to someone like Ray Leonard didn't sit well with him).

[3fingers]

I don't think floyd would lose alex, I just think he avoided a very tough fight for better money.

[AlexHuckerby]

Thats the second round watched alex, does it follow this format? I dont see a back foot fighter, I see some being pushed back by a bigger man. I see some one moving around the ring then stepping in with aggressive combinations and pummelling his opponent in close. Do I need to watch tge rest of the fight to see this back foot fighterbin the moukd of floyd?

Well it highlights the fact that Williams had little amateur experience, has very poor defence and woulnd't be a particularly difficult night for Floyd really, because he can't handle anyone that counters his jab, Floyd is a master of countering poor jabbers.

[3fingers]

I'm not gonna watch the rest of the fight. I get your point.

I dont think floyd would lose to margo, williams, a prime cotto, a larger marquez, or a post hatton manny. I simply think he's avoided tough fights.

[AlexHuckerby]

It was definitely an anticipated fight, Hammersmith, but I can't forget the fact that Hatton hadn't been given particularly good reviews in the States for his showings against Collazo and Urango. He put that right against Castillo, to be fair to him, but even then I get the impression looking back that HBO were much bigger on a potential fight with Cotto than they were with Hatton. After Ricky stopped Castillo, even before the broadcast ended I remember the HBO team trying to emphasise how shot Castillo had looked and how dull Hatton-Urango had been a few months beforehand. I'd agree that Judah and Mosley at that stage flattered to deceive, but Cotto still rightly made more waves beating those two the way he did than Hatton did for getting past Collazo, Urango and Castillo in the eighteen months before fighting Floyd.

Hatton had a loyal, passionate following from the UK alright, but in terms of PPV buys Stateside I'm not convinced that Hatton would have been the bigger option financially. Cotto got himself on to PPV without Mayweather, whereas I'm not sure Hatton could have done.

Anyway, his fan base doesn't make Hatton the better fighter and while he was hot property in 2007, Cotto's form had been better-looking and he'd not had any terrible struggles or really dull fights like Hatton had experienced. I think in this country we obviously foamed at the mouth for the Hatton fight, but my impression was always that in the States the fight was seen as legitimate, big and exciting, but that Cotto further down the line was always going to be 'the one.'

I remember Steward after the Hatton fight commenting that in 2007 Mayweather had done a good job of cleverly taking the ever so slightly less risky fights while still earning an absolute bomb, but that it was now time to press on and tackle the really elite challenges out there (as a side note, it was also during the Hatton fight that Steward commented that, to him, Mayweather wasn't really a truly great fighter or a legend, and that comparing him to someone like Ray Leonard didn't sit well with him).

Fantastic assessment as always Chris, just on that last part in regards to Steward I always got the impression that Steward thought Mayweather was behind the likes of HEarns and Leonard just for the simple fact that he doesn't go for KOS, something I personally disagree with. It was highlighted in the commentary by Steward against Ortiz the fact that he had a lack of a killer instinct meant that he ranks behind them somehow.

One of the few times I have to disagree with Steward as I generally regard his opinion as near bang on.

[catchweight]

I dont get how Mayweather can be rated alongside Leonard. One fought and beat some of the best boxers in the history of the sport. The other one didnt.

[AlexHuckerby]

I'm not gonna watch the rest of the fight. I get your point.

I dont think floyd would lose to margo, williams, a prime cotto, a larger marquez, or a post hatton manny. I simply think he's avoided tough fights.

Fair views however I would have to say, Margarito was a TOp Rank fighter, Cotto in 2008 was a Top Rank fighter, Mayweather hasn't fought a Top Rank fighter since he split up from Top Rank, I genuinely wonder as to whether Bob Arum is a gamechanger in terms of the people he's faced as he fought Cotto at his natural weight at 154lbs. Canelo by most was regarded as the toughest fight of his career and by many a tougher fight than PAcqiaou at the time due to Manny being on a 2 fight losing streak... Perhaps it's not avoidance, it was boxing politics? Not really a coincidence every single fighter Floyd has faced has been with GBP, and if they have had a decent test he's fought anyone from GBP.

[3fingers]

Floyd waits for ko's, where as leonard and hearns sought them out. Maybe thats what he meant? It's all well and good Stweard saying that, but what did he expect? He only has decent power at WW.

[AlexHuckerby]

No but Floyd doesn't press for it, doesn't show his killer instinct, I'll relisten to it as it has been around a year since I last watched the fight, but the point he seemed to be getting at was he didn't go in for the kill. He felt that if he pressed it onto opponents he actually could get the KO's, but he prefers to take no risks which he felt stopped him from being ranked with the top guys.

[3fingers]

I dont know much about the promotional aspect of the game or how it affects fights being made. Maybe there's some truth in what your saying. For whatever reason though, tougher tests should have been sought. Great feat in beating canelo, even though he was champ in one of the weakest divisions in boxing, who'd mainly defended against WW's (I think). I'd rather he fought Garcia, Bradley, Marquez again (after he grew into the weight), Manny, Matthesse, khan, lara, thurman, provodnikov, or malinaggi.

[3fingers]

Maybe he'll still fight a few of those.

[3fingers]

To be honest all the fights through history that we think should have fought are only difficult in our imagination. He'd most likely spank all of them anyway.

[AlexHuckerby]

I dont know much about the promotional aspect of the game or how it affects fights being made. Maybe there's some truth in what your saying. For whatever reason though, tougher tests should have been sought. Great feat in beating canelo, even though he was champ in one of the weakest divisions in boxing, who'd mainly defended against WW's (I think).  I'd rather he fought Garcia, Bradley, Marquez again (after he grew into the weight), Manny, Matthesse, khan, lara, thurman, provodnikov, or malinaggi.

Yeah, to be honest with you, not many of those fights particularly interest me either.
Garcia is simply too slow on his feet, but has earned a fair crack at the whip.
Bradley, again has earned his shot for a fight against Floyd, but can only see it going one way in a very uninteresting bout with Floyd simply doing everything Bradley can do but better.
Marquez, we've seen what happens there, MArquez is looking slower with the added bulk, although harder hitting, Floyd dances around him all night again.
Manny one of the more interesting fights there, get a feeling Manny gives him a toughish fight but Floyd comes away with the win easier than he would have a few years back.
Matthysse... If people are gonna complain about Maidana, you surely can't have Matthysse in there in my view.
Khan, would maybe be interesting just due to the speed but can see Floyd doing his typical thing of adjusting to a one dimensional fighter and winning at a canter towards the end.
Lara, the most difficult fight there, mixed bag is Lara but on his game he could really upset the apple cart, would have the best chance of winning out of anyone on the list.
Thurman, I made a thread, September 2015, Thurman beats Mayweather. Watch this space :P
Provodnikov, can only see that being a repeat of Gatti/Mayweather really...
Malignaggi... I refuse to even write anything about that one.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Can't agree that Hatton in 2007 was a bigger fight than Cotto, Hammersmith. Although I agree that Hatton was in higher demand than both Margarito and Williams at that point.

Mayweather fought Cotto when Cotto had already had to absorb a couple of horrible beatings, after Cotto had fallen out of the top ten pound for pound list and when Cotto was a 5/1 underdog - and the fight still generated 1.5 million PPV buys as well as being one of the top two / three non-Heavyweight bouts in history in terms of purse, gate receipts, revenue etc.

A 2007 / 2008 fight against an unbeaten Cotto, in the top five pound for pound and with the odds almost certainly a lot kinder to Miguel would have been far more intriguing and certainly would have outstripped Hatton-Mayweather from a financial point of view, for me. The Mayweather fight was Hatton's first PPV fight in the States, and let's be honest, against anyone else he wouldn't have been PPV. On the other hand, Cotto had already made that step against Mosley and did so again when he fought Margarito a few months later, both of them doing about half a million buys each I believe.

Hatton was a good fight for Mayweather at the time, perfectly legit and a big money maker, too - but in both areas I think it was second in line to Mayweather-Cotto in that late 2007 period.

Hatton was a huge fight..............Hatton took thousands of fans to America and the PPV buys both sides of the Atlantic were heavy....

Hatton was also a 50/50 fight according to many...Obviously like all Floyd opponents he becomes a useless fat boy once beaten.......

Had Cotto been Mexican he may have sold better..........

No way was Cotto a bigger or harder fight at the time.........Most on the old 606 had Hatton's body attack wearing Cotto down..

Hatton was rated higher............Was more marketable and unbeaten.....

a fact lost on many..

[hazharrison]

Can't agree that Hatton in 2007 was a bigger fight than Cotto, Hammersmith. Although I agree that Hatton was in higher demand than both Margarito and Williams at that point.

Mayweather fought Cotto when Cotto had already had to absorb a couple of horrible beatings, after Cotto had fallen out of the top ten pound for pound list and when Cotto was a 5/1 underdog - and the fight still generated 1.5 million PPV buys as well as being one of the top two / three non-Heavyweight bouts in history in terms of purse, gate receipts, revenue etc.

A 2007 / 2008 fight against an unbeaten Cotto, in the top five pound for pound and with the odds almost certainly a lot kinder to Miguel would have been far more intriguing and certainly would have outstripped Hatton-Mayweather from a financial point of view, for me. The Mayweather fight was Hatton's first PPV fight in the States, and let's be honest, against anyone else he wouldn't have been PPV. On the other hand, Cotto had already made that step against Mosley and did so again when he fought Margarito a few months later, both of them doing about half a million buys each I believe.

Hatton was a good fight for Mayweather at the time, perfectly legit and a big money maker, too - but in both areas I think it was second in line to Mayweather-Cotto in that late 2007 period.

Cotto didn't hit the big time until he beat Mosley which was a month earlier than the Hatton fight nor did he have such a devoted passionate following, a lot changed after those two fights. The Judah fight had decent interest but that was helped by fighting a New Yorker in New York which was also true of the Malignaggi fight. There's a bit of a difference between a fighter who brings 20,000 fans with him and a fighter who does decent number on PPV which was against a future hall of famer and big name.

There's not a lot in it and before those two fights it was Hatton who was seen as the riskier option, bizarre in hindsight but the Americans were creaming themselves over Hatton after the Castillo fight.

 
That's incorrect. Cotto arrived in the win over Judah, fought before a capacity crowd at MSG (the third year in a row he'd fought in NY on the eve of the Puerto Rican Day Parade -- the crowd was largely comprised of his countrymen).
 
Ellerbe immediately poo-pooed a Mayweather fight, claiming they'd only do fights that generated money in Las Vegas (rather than New York). That's where Hatton came in with his boozy army of fans keen on a jaunt over to the flashy lights on the strip.
 
Shane Mosley, fresh off a brace of wins over Fernando Vargas and the underrated Luis Collazo was also chasing a Mayweather fight (at this point). Floyd, as is his wont, rejected both business propositions and plumped for a more lucrative Hatton fight. Hatton, to my mind, was never seen as a more risky proposition than Mosley and Cotto (be interested if you could produce a source that could bear that claim out?).

[hazharrison]

In addition: Cotto's victory over Mosley enhanced his claims for a fight with Floyd. Mayweather, though, had his heart set on a rematch with Oscar (again, lower risk, higher reward) and elected to retire after the rematch -- tentatively scheduled for Sep 2008 -- fell through.

Cotto was left to duke it out with Williams, Mosley and Margarito (a quality quartet at that point) for supremacy at 147 lbs.

[TRUSSMAN66]

Lower risk higher reward in your opinion.........

[TRUSSMAN66]

Does any body really think these old fighters fought the best even though they got paid f**k all because of legacy and because they wanted to ??....When they had families to feed and the future to think about.....Bull***t....

They didn't have control of their own careers and were told who to fight or they would be dropped by white Promoters and find it difficult to get work.........Boxing was a closed shop !!

If Archie, Ezzard and any other fighter of the day had Mayweather's power they would use it........and rightly so..

What kind of fighter or his management trawls a top 10 list and goes "I'll fight him because he'll beat me" duhhhhhhhhhhh......

Mayweather is luckier than these old boys in that he has control..........Folly to presume these guys wouldn't be more selective these days.....

Because family and money all comes before glory and satisfying the ingrate-morons on here..

and so it should !!.........Because no one gives a toss about you when you've retired.......

The guy has beaten five top 10 p4pers.........More than Manny and anyone else bar Leonard in the last 35 years..

Show some gratitude..........and stop this jealous nit picking....

Owens wouldn't have beaten Bolt
Nicklaus wasn't better than Woods.....

Times change...........The athlete has more control these days......My advice go with the times or shut up..

[88Chris05]

Wow. Have you forgotten to take your pills again, Truss!?

Mybe money and long-term security does come before all. Which just makes it even worse and even less forgivable that Floyd kept putting up obstacles to prevent the richest fight in history from happening.

Appreciate that you think Mayweather gets jusdged more harshly than others, but surely that's natural? He's been called in some quarters the greatest boxer in history. He likes to remind everyone that he's his own boss, who can decide who he fights, when he fights, where he fights and how he fights at the drop of a hat. He's the biggest money maker in the game, so has a pretty wide pool of fighters to pick from between 140 and 154.

With all that in mind, I don't think it's unreasonable for a lot of people, me included, to feel pretty short-changed when it comes to his opposition / selection of opponent over the last half-dozen years or so.

[hazharrison]

Lower risk higher reward in your opinion.........

The opinion of the trade press at that time also. The NY times described his 2008 campaign (which began with a humdrum victory over the physically mismatched Steve Forbes) as a "retirement tour". Cotto and Mosley were bigger threats to Mayweather than a part-time De la Hoya. Both were top ranked welterweights at this point, whereas I don't believe Oscar wasn't ranked at all at welterweight (and the rematch was scheduled to take place at 147). Mayweather dismissed Mosley as a "sparring partner" yet Shane had already proven himself the better man against Oscar and was in far better form than the bit-part De la Hoya, who was in and out of his slippers at this point.

[TRUSSMAN66]

You must have missed the five p4pers bit......

Sure it was an oversight......So I'll let you off...

all these books you read and fights you watch on youtube.........Doesn't alter the fact that had these old boys had control over their own careers they'd pick money over glory everytime..

Why most ended up in the gutter........

F**k eating all these old timers fought for the glory.... I get it !!

[TopHat24/7]

You must have missed the five p4pers bit......

Sure it was an oversight......So I'll let you off...

You mean the guys you/Floyd's promoters say are p4pers? Conveniently achieving such lofty status just after signing to fight Floyd.



Anyone checked whether MM is in the most recent Ring Top 10??

[hazharrison]

The guy has beaten five top 10 p4pers.........More than Manny and anyone else bar Leonard in the last 35 years..

..

 
 
As irrelevant as that comment is: does that really stack up? Were Morales, Marquez and Barrera not P4P SUPERSTARS?!!! Didn't Pacquiao beat those three a total of six times?
 
No-one's criticising Mayweather for taking a smart approach to his career. Surely you can see, though, that in hand picking beatable opposition it precludes him from being able to compete in any argument over quality of opposition against the names you've highlighted (whatever the reasons behind it)?

[hazharrison]

You must have missed the five p4pers bit......

Sure it was an oversight......So I'll let you off...

You mean the guys you/Floyd's promoters say are p4pers? Conveniently achieving such lofty status just after signing to fight Floyd.



Anyone checked whether MM is in the most recent Ring Top 10??

Wouldn't surprise me. Broner was.

[hazharrison]

You must have missed the five p4pers bit......

Sure it was an oversight......So I'll let you off...

all these books you read and fights you watch on youtube.........Doesn't alter the fact that had these old boys had control over their own careers they'd pick money over glory everytime..

Why most ended up in the gutter........

F**k eating all these old timers fought for the glory.... I get it !!

Does Pacquiao not have similar autonomy in his career?

[TopHat24/7]

Guerrero suddenly jumped into the list too.

[TRUSSMAN66]

With all due respect Haz...........Somebody who publishes half an article on Mayweather which slated him.......and omitted the other half which praised him.....

Isn't really someone to debate him with.......

No offence Mate ..

[hazharrison]

With all due respect Haz...........Somebody who publishes half an article on Mayweather which slated him.......and omitted the other half which praised him.....

Isn't really someone to debate him with.......

No offence Mate ..

No offence taken. I linked the full article.

[TopHat24/7]

 

[Hammersmith harrier]

I'm going from memory on the Hatton thing, a good indicator of how the pair were seen at the time is their P4P standing. Hatton was always higher until he lost to Mayweather even then their was nothing in it. To suggest Cotto was a far bigger risk at the time just isn't true.

[catchweight]

There is no excuse for Mayweather not facing Cotto at welterweight.

[TRUSSMAN66]

I'm going from memory on the Hatton thing, a good indicator of how the pair were seen at the time is their P4P standing. Hatton was always higher until he lost to Mayweather even then their was nothing in it. To suggest Cotto was a far bigger risk at the time just isn't true.

True but it doesn't go with the narrative...

[TRUSSMAN66]

 

The usual offering from this guy..........

[hazharrison]

I'm going from memory on the Hatton thing, a good indicator of how the pair were seen at the time is their P4P standing. Hatton was always higher until he lost to Mayweather even then their was nothing in it. To suggest Cotto was a far bigger risk at the time just isn't true.

It is I'm afraid. Hatton was a fine junior welterweight -- the bonafide champion at the weight who'd (rather contentiously) picked up a welterweight alphabet belt (hence his P4P RANKING!!) however, oddsmakers made Cotto favourite in a prospective match between the pair. Cotto was also a top rated 147 pounder in 2007 and 2008 (Hatton was unranked there).

Hatton was the more lucrative fight in Vegas but Cotto was deemed a bigger threat.

[catchweight]

He could quite easily have fought Cotto before or after Hatton. It wasnt like he could only fight one.

[Diamond in the rough]

Hatton back then was the equivalent of Bradley just now IMO

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