The French conundrum

I know this board is dominated by Brits, Irish and the odd SH type, but are there any French on here? I want to know what the feeling is in French rugby about St Andre and the French team's woeful performances. Apart from a 15 minute spell against England in the opening game, there has been nothing to celebrate. Mostly poor against England, disorganised against Italy, shambolic in Wales, dismal in Scotland and only marginally better but still dire against Ireland back in Paris. Would any other coach, with such talent in his locker still be in a job? The French press don't seem to care that much but do the French rugby supporters?

whocares is the poster you seek

Is he the only Frenchman on here?

In which case I don't think I'm going to get a very "representative" view. What pressure, to carry the weight of a nation single handed!

MissBlennerhassett wrote:I know this board is dominated by Brits, Irish and the odd SH type, but are there any French on here? I want to know what the feeling is in French rugby about St Andre and the French team's woeful performances. Apart from a 15 minute spell against England in the opening game, there has been nothing to celebrate. Mostly poor against England, disorganised against Italy, shambolic in Wales, dismal in Scotland and only marginally better but still dire against Ireland back in Paris. Would any other coach, with such talent in his locker still be in a job? The French press don't seem to care that much but do the French rugby supporters?

Sensing this is a wind up, but anywho....

French played for 15 minutes against England, and the only game they decided to play full on for the full 80 was against Ireland. By far their best performance of the Tournament.

But is there that much talent in their locker really? Some quality outside backs (Fofana is absolutely world class, Huget and Dulin also outstanding) and on paper a great back row (Nyana, Dussatoir and Picamoles) that haven't played together this tournament, but no longer a great front 5 and struggling to find a half back comnbination especially when Parra is missing.

I think the intent of the Top 14 to buy the ageing greats of the game has restricted the development of younger French players and they now have something of a lack of strength in depth. As with Wales (although for somewht different reasons), if they can put their first choice XV out they are still very good, but are only a couple of injuries away from being severely weakened.

And then you have the persistence with Basteraud, who one match in 5 will be unplayable but for the other 4 might as well be replaced with a wardrobe - takes as much running around and is about as mobile.

Munchkin wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:I know this board is dominated by Brits, Irish and the odd SH type, but are there any French on here? I want to know what the feeling is in French rugby about St Andre and the French team's woeful performances. Apart from a 15 minute spell against England in the opening game, there has been nothing to celebrate. Mostly poor against England, disorganised against Italy, shambolic in Wales, dismal in Scotland and only marginally better but still dire against Ireland back in Paris. Would any other coach, with such talent in his locker still be in a job? The French press don't seem to care that much but do the French rugby supporters?

Sensing this is a wind up, but anywho....

French played for 15 minutes against England, and the only game they decided to play full on for the full 80 was against Ireland. By far their best performance of the Tournament.

I think you're seeing everything through very Emerald eyes there. No, they were poor against Ireland, lots of handling errors, poor decision making and no real passion. They weren't much better against England, but for a 10 to 15 minute spell they were a lot better. As with all other teams, they were able to raise themselves, if only for a while against their nemesis.

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:I know this board is dominated by Brits, Irish and the odd SH type, but are there any French on here? I want to know what the feeling is in French rugby about St Andre and the French team's woeful performances. Apart from a 15 minute spell against England in the opening game, there has been nothing to celebrate. Mostly poor against England, disorganised against Italy, shambolic in Wales, dismal in Scotland and only marginally better but still dire against Ireland back in Paris. Would any other coach, with such talent in his locker still be in a job? The French press don't seem to care that much but do the French rugby supporters?

Sensing this is a wind up, but anywho....

French played for 15 minutes against England, and the only game they decided to play full on for the full 80 was against Ireland. By far their best performance of the Tournament.

I think you're seeing everything through very Emerald eyes there. No, they were poor against Ireland, lots of handling errors, poor decision making and no real passion. They weren't much better against England, but for a 10 to 15 minute spell they were a lot better. As with all other teams, they were able to raise themselves, if only for a while against their nemesis.

Now I know you're on a wind up.

Anyway. It doesn't matter. Ireland are 2014 6 Nation champions   

Laters   

dummy_half wrote:But is there that much talent in their locker really? Some quality outside backs (Fofana is absolutely world class, Huget and Dulin also outstanding) and on paper a great back row (Nyana, Dussatoir and Picamoles) that haven't played together this tournament, but no longer a great front 5 and struggling to find a half back comnbination especially when Parra is missing.

I think the intent of the Top 14 to buy the ageing greats of the game has restricted the development of younger French players and they now have something of a lack of strength in depth. As with Wales (although for somewht different reasons), if they can put their first choice XV out they are still very good, but are only a couple of injuries away from being severely weakened.

And then you have the persistence with Basteraud, who one match in 5 will be unplayable but for the other 4 might as well be replaced with a wardrobe - takes as much running around and is about as mobile.

I wish I could argue with facts but I admit I can' as I don't have enough insight in to French rugbyt. I do know that French domestic rugby is very forwards dominated, somewhat against type you may say and that they tend to do very well in Europe with largely French packs, so surely there must be a wealth of quality tight and loose forwards to choose from, and they never seem short of game changing backs?

Munchkin wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:I know this board is dominated by Brits, Irish and the odd SH type, but are there any French on here? I want to know what the feeling is in French rugby about St Andre and the French team's woeful performances. Apart from a 15 minute spell against England in the opening game, there has been nothing to celebrate. Mostly poor against England, disorganised against Italy, shambolic in Wales, dismal in Scotland and only marginally better but still dire against Ireland back in Paris. Would any other coach, with such talent in his locker still be in a job? The French press don't seem to care that much but do the French rugby supporters?

Sensing this is a wind up, but anywho....

French played for 15 minutes against England, and the only game they decided to play full on for the full 80 was against Ireland. By far their best performance of the Tournament.

I think you're seeing everything through very Emerald eyes there. No, they were poor against Ireland, lots of handling errors, poor decision making and no real passion. They weren't much better against England, but for a 10 to 15 minute spell they were a lot better. As with all other teams, they were able to raise themselves, if only for a while against their nemesis.

Now I know you're on a wind up.

Anyway. It doesn't matter. Ireland are 2014 6 Nation champions   

Laters   

Congratulations, enjoy your win!

I thought they looked much better against Ireland. They tested the defence from start to finish and had the Irish looking nervous at times. Considering how Ireland had played prior to that that's saying something. But it wasn't enough and it's becoming the norm under PSA: look disjointed against the majority of sides before a valiant yet insufficient effort against the top side. Similar to 2012 when they gave GS-chasing Wales a tough test on the final weekend but couldn't quite spoil the party.

yeah Misswhatever looking like a casual WUM here... might be wrong though in which case I apologise.

anyway to answer your initial questions :
- French media, fans on other forums and coaches/former players/pundits have all been heavily critising France lack of interest and PSA poor management and clueless tactics between the Scotland and Ireland game. I believe that if France repeated the Murrayfield peformance against a slightly nervous Ireland they would not have lost by 2 but by 20...
- While there was a clear lack of composure in defense and attack against Ireland, they did play with intent and some passion during 80 minutes. they were agressive in the rucks and kept the Irish centres quiet for most of the game. Ireland was playing a good structured game with lot of variety and were clinical enough to take the game with all their tries being nicely set up
- because of that game I think that PSA job is unfortunately safe for another year. he will be gone after the RWC and another cycle will start with another coach who might not be better.

French lack of depth might be an issue on some positions (mainly props and 10 ) but look at all the players that were not available at some point during the 6N :
- hooker : Kayser (3 games) and Swarczesky (for one game) so had to play an uncapped guy against Scotland
- centres : Fritz (1st choice 13) , Fofana (2 games)
- backrow (flankers) : Dusautoir, Oueadraogo, Nyanga (2 games) are normally all 1st choices. didnt help that other flankers like le roux, burban and lauret were also injured at some point. we're lucky to have huge depth at flanker and guys like Lapandry able to step up at that level.
- FH : Plisson started 3 games only because both Tales and Lopez (tested during the summer and last AIs) were injured while Michalak time is fortunately behind us
- SH : Parra was injured in january so missed the 6N train otherwise would have been at least on the bench. other guys like Pelissié who should have been tried are also injured.
- back 3 : we missed Guitoune who was the real find of the AIs for a long term injury. cant complain with Huget form though and got to discover guys like Bonneval.

so in essence we were missing our 1st choices 6,7,9,10,12 and 13 for most of the tournament.

Don't for get that this is essentially the same side that 2 years was being vaunted as potential world beaters - "the most talented side in the NH". One wooden spoon and 5 poor performances the following year. Is PSA's job even under scrutiny? I really don't know.

I dont know as well. the FFR does not and never communicate on that. am not sure they know wether or not they can sack him. it's not something that seem to happen in Rugby anyway.

some journalists did hype up France after the 2011 RWC final and 2012 AIs (where they spanked Australia). however those performances were more the exception than the rule under PSA.

whocares wrote:yeah Misswhatever looking like a casual WUM here... might be wrong though in which case I apologise.

anyway to answer your initial questions :
- French media, fans on other forums and coaches/former players/pundits have all been heavily critising France lack of interest and PSA poor management and clueless tactics between the Scotland and Ireland game. I believe that if France repeated the Murrayfield peformance against a slightly nervous Ireland they would not have lost by 2 but by 20...
- While there was a clear lack of composure in defense and attack against Ireland, they did play with intent and some passion during 80 minutes. they were agressive in the rucks and kept the Irish centres quiet for most of the game. Ireland was playing a good structured game with lot of variety and were clinical enough to take the game with all their tries being nicely set up
- because of that game I think that PSA job is unfortunately safe for another year. he will be gone after the RWC and another cycle will start with another coach who might not be better.

French lack of depth might be an issue on some positions (mainly props and 10 ) but look at all the players that were not available at some point during the 6N :
- hooker : Kayser (3 games) and Swarczesky (for one game) so had to play an uncapped guy  against Scotland
- centres : Fritz (1st choice 13) , Fofana (2 games)
- backrow (flankers) : Dusautoir, Oueadraogo, Nyanga (2 games) are normally all 1st choices. didnt help that other flankers like le roux, burban and lauret were also injured at some point. we're lucky to have huge depth at flanker and guys like Lapandry able to step up at that level.
- FH : Plisson started 3 games only because both Tales and Lopez (tested during the summer and last AIs) were injured while Michalak time is fortunately behind us
- SH : Parra was injured in january so missed the 6N train otherwise would have been at least on the bench. other guys like Pelissié who should have been tried are also injured.
- back 3 : we missed Guitoune who was the real find of the AIs for a long term injury. cant complain with Huget form though and got to discover guys like Bonneval.

so in essence we were missing our 1st choices 6,7,9,10,12 and 13 for most of the tournament.  

England could easily make the same argument, but still showed progression, which is what surely should keep a coach in his job. Undoubtedly you played better against Ireland than you did against Scotland but it was hardly inspiring stuff and surely not enough to secure PSA's job? You looked better against England so you've gone in the wrong direction overall. I've looked at a few French papers online and websites and don't see nearly the uproar that you would see in England, Australia etc to such a string of performances.

No conundrum, they're just pants. What is it about France (and Australia), that when they're pants everyone thinks they're just pretending. Albeit by their own high standards, both teams are currently pants.

Munchkin wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:I know this board is dominated by Brits, Irish and the odd SH type, but are there any French on here? I want to know what the feeling is in French rugby about St Andre and the French team's woeful performances. Apart from a 15 minute spell against England in the opening game, there has been nothing to celebrate. Mostly poor against England, disorganised against Italy, shambolic in Wales, dismal in Scotland and only marginally better but still dire against Ireland back in Paris. Would any other coach, with such talent in his locker still be in a job? The French press don't seem to care that much but do the French rugby supporters?

Sensing this is a wind up, but anywho....

French played for 15 minutes against England, and the only game they decided to play full on for the full 80 was against Ireland. By far their best performance of the Tournament.

France had their best game against Wales and got stuffed, I think that shows where they are in the world . At the time it also showed how bitter and ungracious some England rugby fans can be (as did the final game of the final 6N weekend).  

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

 
England could easily make the same argument, but still showed progression, which is what surely should keep a coach in his job. Undoubtedly you played better against Ireland than you did against Scotland but it was hardly inspiring stuff and surely not enough to secure PSA's job? You looked better against England so you've gone in the wrong direction overall. I've looked at a few French papers online and websites and don't see nearly the uproar that you would see in England, Australia etc to such a string of performances.

 
you should really look better I guess.  the thing in France is the last time there was an organised campaign by a newspaper (l'equipe) against a coach (was jacquet prior the football worldcup of 1998), France ended up winning the whole thing ;)nowadays, journos are a bit more cautious in the headlines they throw. it is also helped by the fact that we dont have tabloids. Like I said it is pretty rare to see rugby coaches being sacked anyway.
 
agree that England showed good progress but still couldnt win against France this time although they looked as the better team. and agree wthat france under PSA at best stagnated.... also try England without their captain Robshaw, Wood, care and possibly Farrel at the same time.

Munchkin,

Been reading 50 Shades...............

Laters Baby  

Saint is fishing again, same old maggoty hook.

Can maggots go fishing?

whocares seems like you think that PSA is the man for the job - obviously France's disjointed performances were because of the huge injury list to French players (France were the only team to have players missing of course).

I agree PSA is not to blame - he's a very good coach doing the best he can. PSA had winning stratagems to beat Ireland and Wales but his players did not execute his carefully laid out plans.

He's wasted in France, some people don't understand his genius. Perhaps him and Gatland could swap coaching roles.

I think France are a bit like Scotland, you can sack as many coaches as you like, but in truth the talent is there with the players, they are simply not performing.

I have wondered now the game has been cleaned up a lot whether the French have lost their intimidation factor, in the 90's and 00's I always remember the celtic teams going up to Paris and getting smashed by 30 odd points, simply because they beat the crap into our teams. Now they can't do that kind of thing they seem to have lost a lot of their edge.

Disagree Shifty. I think Scotland and France are similar because they both have hopeless coaches but in terms of talent I would say the French have more. Most of the supposedly good Scottish players aren't as good as their NH compatriots.

E.g. people praise Denton but would he get in the starting line ups of England,Ireland or Wales? Not in my opinion.

Let's be honest England and France should have more potential than their NH compatriots because of the larger player pool. Gives them a greater opportunity at strength in depth and more chance at unearthing world class players.

Scotland have a very small player pool to pick from. Not helped by Edinburgh looking overseas frequently to augment their squad. France and England can afford some of their clubs to do that but Scotland cannot when Edinburgh is just one of two Scottish clubs.

I agree France have lost a lot of their edge. That's PSA. They have players that can play that way but they are either injured or short on confidence.

beshocked wrote:whocares seems like you think that PSA is the man for the job - obviously France's disjointed performances were because of the huge injury list to French players (France were the only team to have players missing of course).

I agree PSA is not to blame - he's a very good coach doing the best he can. PSA had winning stratagems to beat Ireland and Wales but his players did not execute his carefully laid out plans.

He's wasted in France, some people  don't understand his genius. Perhaps him and Gatland could swap coaching roles.

are you trying to be funny? were did you read that I think PSA is the man for the job !!! Nobody really thinks that over here but we have to make do with him like we had to live with Lievremont before him. he has no vision and he's not strong enough to manage those players imo. as a result they lack confindence and are scared to play whatever game plan he's asking them to play and whenever thigns go wrong then they panic. we would need someone external to the FFR and French rugby to kick start some progress

I dont blame the injury list for my team lack of performance , it was just a way to answer to Dummy-Half question on our lack of depth. even the subs we had should have done better although we were missing some true leaders and our captain is not really up for the job.

Didnt France beat England!!! Or did I miss that one as well.

It has been very interesting hearing some of the comments and remarks from ROG on how they coach in the Top14. The level of detail and planning that goes into games appears to be surprisingly limited.

PSA was always quite a structured and conservative coach during this time at Sale and Toulon from what I can remember and he was never going to be the saviour of French national rugby that some of the media were making out at the time of his appointment.

There are still moments of broken play brilliance by French players but they are slowly being driving out of the game by the relatively simple collision orientated rugby that is prevailing across the Top14.

TV money is way up, it is obviously getting spectators to the games and the league is sold worldwide so it 'entertains' and keeps people interested. But in it's current guise will it help France at Test level?

I really like the title. The word conundrum even if you don't understand it suggests what it says.

However I don't think the French have a conundrum, to have a conundrum suggests that you have isolated a number of reasons for their inconsistent perfomances.

In my view the French are simply a mystery, not to be solved.

whocares no not really trying to be funny. Just trying to understand what your real opinion on PSA is.

What is the point of going to a RWC with a coach that you and the players are not confident in? I know it's not ideal to change your coach now but Scotland are changing theirs.

I feel France need to be bold and brave.

beshocked wrote:whocares no not really trying to be funny. Just trying to understand what your real opinion on PSA is.

What is the point of going to a RWC with a coach that you and the players are not confident in? I know it's not ideal to change your coach now but Scotland are changing theirs.

I feel France need to be bold and brave.

Scott Johnson was always only an interim coach. FFR appointed PSA and I cant remember them ever changing coach in the middle of a contract. we're not going anywhere with him but what can I do? am not Camou!

BamBam wrote:Can maggots go fishing?

Please don't tempt me BB, Biltong would only tell me off again.

Anyone think that ME-109 is Saints cousin from across the Irish Sea?

Talking of German Fighter planes, didn't England beat Ireland? In fact haven't England beaten Ireland quite consistently over the past few years?

Ireland are still my favourite non English team though, something about rugby, Guinness and Dublin that all seams to work better than anywhere else. Including HQ, the beer is awful.

PSA's teams have been dominated by poor selections, poor substitutions and chaotic patterns. This year there have been injuries, but last year he had less injuries and still picked Michalek. Against England last year he took off Parra and Picamoles who were together controlling the game - and then lost the match as a consequence.

Why he hasn't started machenaud in every game this 6N is beyond me, and why he perseveres with basteraud this season is astonishing. And no place for trinh Duc who isn't amazing but is a steady game manager.

He turns a potentially world class squad into a disorganised rabble. Cardiff blues will probably sign him as their next coach.

Parra, Trinh-Duc, Huget, Fofana, Fickou, Medard/Bonneval, Dulin.

Would love to see that back line get a go