Welterweight 90's vs 00's

After a discussion on the ubiquitous Floyd thread (that has become something of a 606v2 mainstay) how do we think a welterweight division pans out if the top four from 07-08 (not including you know who) were joined by the top five from the 90's (if they could only fight one another):

Miguel Cotto
Antonio Margarito
Paul Williams
Shane Mosley
Oscar De la Hoya
Felix Trinidad
Pernell Whitaker
Ike Quartey
Joe Luis Lopez

Trinidad vs Margarito would be an absolute humdinger -- could any other pairing top that?

Margarito with the hand wraps or without them?

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Margarito with the hand wraps or without them?

Depends whether Trinidad can use his?

1. Oscar
2. Trinidad
3. Mosley
4. Cotto
5. Williams
6. Whittaker
7. Quartey
8. Marg
9. Lopez................

Oscar top but lost to two of the guys behind him?

It boils down to the Mosley vs Trinidad fight for top dog which I think Shane would edge. Iron chinned, with good power, good hand speed, a good work rate who comes on strong at the end of a fight, a nightmare for Tito.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:1. Oscar
2. Trinidad
3. Mosley
4. Cotto
5. Williams
6. Whittaker
7. Quartey
8. Marg
9. Lopez................

Even though Oscar lost to both Trinidad and Mosley? I would have liked to have seen Oscar in against Margarito -- I think 'Cheeto outworks him down the stretch.

Imagine Mosley vs Quartey -- what a fight that is.

Mosley and Whitaker would emerge as the two standout performers amongst this lot, for me, assuming we're talking about every man in his prime. If I had to edge towards one man outright, it'd maybe be Shane.
 
The big stumbling block for Mosley would perhaps by Williams, who on his day was capable of utilising the same game plan and attributes which Forrest used to dissect him, but Williams adopt those kind of tactics as often as he should have done.
 
Quartey would be a dark horse, for me. Not good enough to emerge as top dog, but as a (relatively) unknown quantity when compared to some of the more glamorous names here, I think he'd have it in him to surprise a few people and win a few fights which most wouldn't expect him to.

It'd be the Mosley from 07-08. The guy that was edged by Cotto but came back to demolish Margarito.

Oscar didn't lose to Trinidad for me........I thought we were having a fresh tournament.......

I think Mosley loses to Trinidad..........and struggles with Cotto....and williams..

I think Oscar loses to Mosley...maybe.........But beats everyone else....

Whittaker is the most blessed but not at welter........

It's styles and fights guys..........My opinion........and I'll respect you guys If you disagree..

Hard enough to predict how things might have worked out if we take them all in their primes, Haz, never mind taking sub-par versions of them!

Thing is, you class Whitaker, for instance, as a 'Welterweight of the nineties.' Well, he contested title fights at 147 lb from 1993 to 1999, but for me Pea's prime ended with his Light-Middleweight title win in March 1995. Anything after that, once he dropped back down to Welter, just wasn't the same fighter. To be honest, you could easily argue that after beating Vasquez, the two most legacy-enhancing and impressive performances of the remainder of his career were De la Hoya and Trinidad, and he didn't emerge victorious in either of them.

So are we talking a prime Whitaker of 93-95? A slightly faded one of 95-97? The clearly over the hill one of 97-99? Hopefully you get my drift - just seems so much easier to assume that each fighter was in their prime. At least that's how I see it....But hey, it's your article!

88Chris05 wrote:Hard enough to predict how things might have worked out if we take them all in their primes, Haz, never mind taking sub-par versions of them!

Thing is, you class Whitaker, for instance, as a 'Welterweight of the nineties.' Well, he contested title fights at 147 lb from 1993 to 1999, but for me Pea's prime ended with his Light-Middleweight title win in March 1995. Anything after that, once he dropped back down to Welter, just wasn't the same fighter. To be honest, you could easily argue that after beating Vasquez, the two most legacy-enhancing and impressive performances of the remainder of his career were De la Hoya and Trinidad, and he didn't emerge victorious in either of them.

So are we talking a prime Whitaker of 93-95? A slightly faded one of 95-97? The clearly over the hill one of 97-99? Hopefully you get my drift - just seems so much easier to assume that each fighter was in their prime. At least that's how I see it....But hey, it's your article!

 
I was thinking the 90's lot from 97 and the 00's mob from 2008 (just to be ridiculously specific!).

I've just gone from their best performances at the weight..

Prime at weight then Whitaker wins it for me, with Mosley then ODLH and Trinidad taking the tops four spots. Sweet pea beat a near prime ODLH in my eyes, and I had Shane edging him out whilst he beat Trinidad for me.

Whitaker
Mosley
Oscar
Trinidad
Cotto

i think paul williams would be a force at WW, nobody like him at the moment.

williams vs bradley would be epic. shame what happened to him.

Williams vs Trinidad would have been special. There are so many good fights here: it's a shame we lost Trinidad vs Quartey due to the fact everyone was jostling for a crack at Oscar (back when having an unbeaten record was all important).

I think Williams was extremely over rated he got well beat by Lara and Quintana 1! He's to inconsistent

I think Williams was a Breland clone but not as good.......Never saw what all the fuss was about..

Have to say I can't see Whittaker ever beating Trinidad at 147/154.

Diamond in the rough wrote:I think Williams was extremely over rated he got well beat by Lara and Quintana 1! He's to inconsistent

He put the record straight against Quintana, though (and then some), and never lost again at 147 (that was his most effective weight -- he moved up due to a lack of opportunities). He'd hit the skids against Lara (after Sergio pancaked him).

Starling didn't hit the skids after Molinares pancaked him........Lewis didn't hit the skids after Rahman and Mccall pancaked him...and thousands of others..

Why apart from the fact you like Williams does he get the excuse he hit the skids after being pancaked...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Starling didn't hit the skids after Molinares pancaked him........Lewis didn't hit the skids after Rahman and Mccall pancaked him...and thousands of others..

Why apart from the fact you like Williams does he get the excuse he hit the skids after being pancaked...

What's all of this "you like him" rubbish? Like him how? He was a good fighter, does that mean I "like" him? Bit 6-year old girl isn't it?

Anyway, Williams looked shopworn in his final two fights. Read the reports and watch the videos -- that was the general opinion at the time. He'd also had a number of tough fights where he was hit. A lot.

Truth be told, Quartey was managed very poorly by Duva and Main Events and this (along with the odd slice of bad luck) means that his record really doesn't do him justice at all.
 
Never really understood why he wasn't matched against Whitaker in 1995 / 1996. The Showtime (read Don King!) rift with HBO reached another level after the Chavez-Whitaker debacle, so for Pernell a rematch with Julio at the time was out, as was a fight against a young Tito.
 
After outclassing McGirt in their rematch and beating Vasquez for a 154 lb belt a few months later, Whitaker was running out of viable, attractive options at Welterweight; his next five fights (albeit most of them were mandatories) were Jacobs, Rodriguez, Rivera x 2 and Hurtado. Then of course De la Hoya moved up to Welter to challenge Whitaker.
 
Quartey had actually defended his WBA belt on the Whitaker-Vasquez undercard, which you'd presume was to pre-empt a fight between them further down the line. Quartey and Pernell had the same management team, same promotional company, fought on the same network and both held titles, so it would have been an easy one to make. I can understand that it would have split Duva's loyalties to a degree, but he didn't appear in Quartey's corner, only Whitaker's, so it was very feasible. I guess Main Events just liked having two Welterweight champions in their ranks and wanted to maximise the earning potential of both.
 
If that wasn't bad enough, no sooner had the Whitaker-Quartey fight been signed for April 1998 (now that Whitaker wasn't holding a belt), Pea gets handed a year-long suspension for testing positive for cocaine and the fight doesn't go ahead in any case. By 1998 / 1999, talk of a De la Hoya-Trinidad showdown was starting to dominate the landscape at 147 lb and Ike was a forgotten man even in his own camp, with Main Events now ploughing most of their attention and efforts in to Judah and Vargas, who were considered the next big things. After missing out on the Whitaker fight, Quartey spent a year sitting around while Main Events failed to get him another fight, and as a result he was stripped of his WBA belt for inactivity and went in to his fight in early '99 (which should have been a unification bout) against De la Hoya purely as a challenger, earning a lot less than he really should / would have done otherwise.
 
Obviously lost a contentious verdict there, and his career never really recovered. Years later at 154 he completely bossed Forrest and got absolutely shafted by the judges, which was typical of his bad luck.
 
As I said above, Quartey would be my dark horse here. Very good fighter and it's a shame he never really got to prove exactly how good he could have been on a wider stage.

It's ok..

Calm down.........Just notice that as with Duran - Leonard 2......Liston-Ali.......You have a tendency to find excuses for fighters you like...

Just found the skid remark amusing............As most fighters get pancaked and come back....

88Chris05 wrote:Truth be told, Quartey was managed very poorly by Duva and Main Events and this (along with the odd slice of bad luck) means that his record really doesn't do him justice at all.
 
Never really understood why he wasn't matched against Whitaker in 1995 / 1996. The Showtime (read Don King!) rift with HBO reached another level after the Chavez-Whitaker debacle, so for Pernell a rematch with Julio at the time was out, as was a fight against a young Tito.
 
After outclassing McGirt in their rematch and beating Vasquez for a 154 lb belt a few months later, Whitaker was running out of viable, attractive options at Welterweight; his next five fights (albeit most of them were mandatories) were Jacobs, Rodriguez, Rivera x 2 and Hurtado. Then of course De la Hoya moved up to Welter to challenge Whitaker.
 
Quartey had actually defended his WBA belt on the Whitaker-Vasquez undercard, which you'd presume was to pre-empt a fight between them further down the line. Quartey and Pernell had the same management team, same promotional company, fought on the same network and both held titles, so it would have been an easy one to make. I can understand that it would have split Duva's loyalties to a degree, but he didn't appear in Quartey's corner, only Whitaker's, so it was very feasible. I guess Main Events just liked having two Welterweight champions in their ranks and wanted to maximise the earning potential of both.
 
If that wasn't bad enough, no sooner had the Whitaker-Quartey fight been signed for April 1998 (now that Whitaker wasn't holding a belt), Pea gets handed a year-long suspension for testing positive for cocaine and the fight doesn't go ahead in any case. By 1998 / 1999, talk of a De la Hoya-Trinidad showdown was starting to dominate the landscape at 147 lb and Ike was a forgotten man even in his own camp, with Main Events now ploughing most of their attention and efforts in to Judah and Vargas, who were considered the next big things. After missing out on the Whitaker fight, Quartey spent a year sitting around while Main Events failed to get him another fight, and as a result he was stripped of his WBA belt for inactivity and went in to his fight in early '99 (which should have been a unification bout) against De la Hoya purely as a challenger, earning a lot less than he really should / would have done otherwise.
 
Obviously lost a contentious verdict there, and his career never really recovered. Years later at 154 he completely bossed Forrest and got absolutely shafted by the judges, which was typical of his bad luck.
 
As I said above, Quartey would be my dark horse here. Very good fighter and it's a shame he never really got to prove exactly how good he could have been on a wider stage.

They were all jockeying for position to get a crack at Oscar -- the cash cow. Trinidad, Quartey, Whitaker all held a belt (from memory) and wanted to hang onto it as a bargaining chip.

I thought Quartey was an excellent, underrated fighter. I thought he pipped Oscar but the length of time he was made to wait for the fight (after Oscar postponed) probably didn't help his cause.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Have to say I can't see Whittaker ever beating Trinidad at 147/154.

You knew I’d be all over this one, Truss!

An over the hill Whitaker with no legs stood in front of Trinidad, attacked him from the off and was on level terms for seven rounds, even with the knockdown (can’t give him anything after 7 though). I’m not sure which round Whitaker got his jaw broken in (think it was either the fourth or sixth) but I think there was enough in that fight that a peak Whitaker without that kind of problem would have been too good for Tito at 147.

At 154 I accept it may well have been different, though.

Don't think whittaker was the same fighter at 147........Chris.........

Think we all thought Whittaker might be elusive for a few rounds.....

But no surprise Tito got on top...Don't see Whittaker fighting much better in his pomp than that...

Also think Tito hit like a beasty at welter..So his punches would hurt even more..

Whittaker at 135 was class........147 not quite as good.......

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I think Williams was a Breland clone but not as good.......Never saw what all the fuss was about

Yer thats why Mayweather avoided him like the plague.

Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I think Williams was a Breland clone but not as good.......Never saw what all the fuss was about

Yer thats why Mayweather avoided him like the plague.

Let's not go there..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I think Williams was a Breland clone but not as good.......Never saw what all the fuss was about

Yer thats why Mayweather avoided him like the plague.

Let's not go there..

Just pointing out the fact.

Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I think Williams was a Breland clone but not as good.......Never saw what all the fuss was about

Yer thats why Mayweather avoided him like the plague.

Let's not go there..

Just pointing out the fact.

Noted..

Agree that Whitaker lost a little something as a Welter (although he was still a bit special at 147) and that Trinidad would always be a tough assignment for him because of the sheer size and power of Tito, as well as Pernell's own lack of power. But a great jab and movement always gave Trinidad trouble and Whitaker boxed him basically without the latter (in his legs anyway) and with diminishing reflexes. I think the Welterweight Pernell of 1993-1995 would have done enough stepping around Trinidad's jab and been cute enough to outbox Trinidad to a points win which would have been relatively close.

Was a surprise that Trinidad and Whitaker actually gave the fans a good, exciting fight considering that Whitaker, as Merchant once put it, "could make Michelle Pfeiffer look bad!"

I'd fancy Trinidad -- too big, too rangy and, unlike De la Hoya, he was accurate with it.

118-109 ...........The judges had Trinidad - Whittaker I believe..........

I'm not a fan of the judges but in this case I think they hit the spot...

Whittaker could make any fighter look awkward.........but a lot of his good work was ineffective for me.......

We'll agree to disagree,,,........Tito for me..

It's besides the point I guess, as Tito was a clear winner on the night, but I felt (as many others do, to my knowledge) that the judges didn't reward Whitaker as much as they should have done, which was a common theme throughout his career, even when he won sometimes, oddly enough.

Similar to Jones-McCallum. All three judges had it a complete wipeout to Roy but for me there were about three rounds which McCallum certainly deserved.

Anyway, whether you had it 118-109 or, like me, something like 116-111 doesn't matter too much, as the bottom line is that Whitaker surprised a lot of people and acquitted himself well, and Trinidad did what he had to do, did it pretty well and became the first man to beat Whitaker legitimately / without controversy. Agree to disagree about what might have happened if it'd been a prime Sweet Pea, and I do think it'd have been a highly competitive fight in any case.

88Chris05 wrote:It's besides the point I guess, as Tito was a clear winner on the night, but I felt (as many others do, to my knowledge) that the judges didn't reward Whitaker as much as they should have done, which was a common theme throughout his career, even when he won sometimes, oddly enough.

Similar to Jones-McCallum. All three judges had it a complete wipeout to Roy but for me there were about three rounds which McCallum certainly deserved.

Anyway, whether you had it 118-109 or, like me, something like 116-111 doesn't matter too much, as the bottom line is that Whitaker surprised a lot of people and acquitted himself well, and Trinidad did what he had to do, did it pretty well and became the first man to beat Whitaker legitimately / without controversy. Agree to disagree about what might have happened if it'd been a prime Sweet Pea, and I do think it'd have been a highly competitive fight in any case.

I think Whitaker showed that, beyond the slick moves and defensive wizardry that marked his career, he also possessed an inert toughness that he could call on when the chips were down. Hopelessly outgunned and with his legs no longer working for him, he fought with Trinidad until the final bell (with a broken jaw to boot).

I agree that whittaker's best work was below welter, he looked a bit puffy at welter... Like he was only there for the bigger names. Tito I was never a fan of... At least not to the degree others seem to be. I'd suggest the size/strength that sweet p gives up is a pretty even swap for his superior skills against Tito and makes prime for prime something of a Pickem. I'd lean to Whittaker doing a winky if I had to.

Shame we never got quartey v Tito. I too liked quartey, but he could be a bit erratic. Surprised how well Vargas handled him, but that may have been as good as Vargas got.

I always think it's too easily forgotten how good an all-round boxer Vargas was, though. Tends to be remembered as an out and out slugger / brawler but he had a lot more going for him than that.

He was a bit lucky to get the nod against Wright, but that was a really high-quality, technical fight and he held his own. Obviously outboxed Quartey well enough and I think it was a bit of inexperience / the exuberance of youth which cost him against Trinidad. Obviously got off to a shocker of a start, but recovered well and was looking to be in the ascendancy by about round five....Unfortunately, he had success trading big shots with Trinidad in round four (think it was four, anyway) when he put Tito over, and in hindsight that was actually a bad thing for him as it seemed to convince him that he could slug it out with Trinidad, which was just too big an ask in the end.

There were a few of the early to middle rounds where Vargas boxed, moved and kept it disciplined in that fight, and Trinidad didn't have an answer. But he just got a bit too full of himself and Tito poured it on - pretty brilliantly in fairness, it has to be said.

True enough, if quartey is the forgotten man of the era, Vargas is close behind. I guess the fact that he was stopped against the two big names overshadows how good he looked against the rest. Fine era at welter/light middle

Its pretty hard to see a dominant fighter emerging out of that pack. If there was going to be one Id have to back Whitaker if he was at his best. With Mosley second and Trinidad third. Didnt see much of Lopez and I dont fancy Margaritos or to a lesser extent Cottos chances at all really with that bunch.