England vs Wales Match day thread

by maestegmafia Sat 08 Mar 2014, 11:59 pm

First topic message reminder :

SIX NATIONS: ENGLAND V WALES
Venue: Twickenham Date: Sunday, 9 March Kick-off: 15:00 GMT
Coverage: Watch live on BBC One, BBC One HD, listen on BBC Radio 5 Live

England

15-Mike Brown, 14-Jack Nowell, 13-Luther Burrell, 12-Billy Twelvetrees, 11-Jonny May, 10-Owen Farrell, 9-Danny Care

1-Joe Marler, 2-Dylan Hartley, 3-David Wilson, 4-Joe Launchbury, 5-Courtney Lawes, 6-Tom Wood, 7-Chris Robshaw (captain), 8-Ben Morgan

Replacements: 16-Tom Youngs, 17-Mako Vunipola, 18-Henry Thomas, 19-Dave Attwood, 20-Tom Johnson, 21-Lee Dickson, 22-George Ford, 23-Alex Goode

Wales

15-Leigh Halfpenny, 14-Alex Cuthbert, 13-Jonathan Davies, 12-Jamie Roberts, 11-George North, 10-Rhys Priestland, 9-Rhys Webb

1-Gethin Jenkins, 2-Richard Hibbard, 3-Adam Jones, 4-Jake Ball, 5-Alun Wyn Jones, 6-Dan Lydiate, 7-Sam Warburton (capt), 8-Taulupe Faletau

Replacements: Ken Owens, Paul James, Rhodri Jones, Andrew Coombs, Justin Tipuric, Mike Phillips, Dan Biggar, Liam Williams
MATCH OFFICIALS

Referee : Romain Poite (Fra)

Touch judges : Steve Walsh (Aus) & Lourens van der Merwe (RSA)
TV Official : Simon McDowell (Ire)

Next up for Wales is a trip to London and after all the banter coming out of the England camp it is time to finish the hype this match has been building and play some rugby. Have England improved on last year? Will home advantage be enough? Has Wales over come a trough and reached another high?

With plenty of injuries to key players, in fact some of England's very best players are out of this game, a convincing win for England over Wales will give the nation huge confidence going forward, maybe even a shot at the championship next weekend.

The build up seems to have been all about England, Wales are a known entity, twice champions in recent years with pretty much the same team they field tomorrow, little change to their game plan or style gives very little to discuss.

On the many various threads the situation is similar, all about England, with very little admiration of this perceivably over-rated Welsh team that have failed to beat a Southern Hemisphere top three team since 2008, the mark of all great sides.

In all honesty a tough and challenging end to the Six Nations will do this Welsh set up some good, possibly more good than the confidence a third consecutive championship would give them. Wales have little to lose and less to prove, a defeat in the manner of last years game would be vastly more detrimental to their hosts.

I hope all the fans enjoy the game, I am sure it will be the usual roller coaster of emotion for both Nations.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 10 Mar 2014, 12:59 pm

We should have put in a pre order for Scratch

by Scrumpy Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:05 pm

lostinwales wrote:This thread feels a bit like when one side has formed the maul and is ready to go, and the other side have just stood off avoiding contact

Thats odd, as the same thing happen on the Ireland v Wales thread too!

by Jimpy Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:07 pm

It's all gone quiet on 606V2 after the rugby-obsessed Welsh nation suffered a crushing 29-18 defeat at Twickenham by an England team that only does it for a bit of fun.

Rugby is their main ‘thing’ and the very backbone of the Welsh national identity, so to be beaten by a country where it is only watched by retired doctors, prawn sandwich eating and champagne swilling 'toffs' must be utterly devastating.

Rugby is pretty much all Wales has apart from singing in choirs, and even that’s been hijacked by the BBC and that knob Gareth thingy.

It felt good seeing England win. Up to now it’s only been a hobby for them obviously, but i'm sure we could all get into this niche football variant.

by Geordie Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:08 pm

Yes...it would be very different if Wales had won however...

by **LondonTiger** Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:10 pm

Jimpy wrote:It's all gone quiet on 606V2 after the rugby-obsessed Welsh nation suffered a crushing 29-18 defeat at Twickenham by an England team that only does it for a bit of fun.

Rugby is their main ‘thing’ and the very backbone of the Welsh national identity, so to be beaten by a country where it is only watched by retired doctors, prawn sandwich eating and champagne swilling 'toffs' must be utterly devastating.

Rugby is pretty much all Wales has apart from singing in choirs, and even that’s been hijacked by the BBC and that knob Gareth thingy.

It felt good seeing England win. Up to now it’s only been a hobby for them obviously, but i'm sure we could all get into this niche football variant.

a post so 2good" you had to use it twice?

by Scrumpy Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:12 pm

by Scrumpy Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:12 pm

by Taffineastbourne Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:13 pm

Scrumpy wrote:What did Hartley do wrong?

He only gave away one penalty I think and played Hibbard off the pitch

Three penalties.Must have been getting close to a yellow.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:14 pm

It has gone very quiet.

There was very vocal posters on here talking about lack of England tries/wins over the last 2 games.

Rather ironic that Wales lose and don't get any tries!

There is some good Welsh boys on here though so unfair to run it in too much.

by Jimpy Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:17 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It has gone very quiet.

There was very vocal posters on here talking about lack of England tries/wins over the last 2 games.

Rather ironic that Wales lose and don't get any tries!

There is some good Welsh boys on here though so unfair to run it in too much.

Nope, milk it and milk it again. And then milk it some more, because by God, you'd better believe they'd be doing it and twice as bad.

by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:26 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Neither May or Nowell have done enough to cement their places but did ok. Just more options in that area. Would have liked Sharples to have been given a go over May personally but I don't watch many Gloucester games.

I would like May to back himself more, he has amazing speed, but if in doubt, coming back inside for support is the correct thing to do. May tends to play very wide on the touch line almost, if he tries to beat the defence then he will almost certainly be isolated and turned over / penalty against as no one else will be near him for a few seconds.

Three times I thought he would go, but when I looked again there was a lot of cover defence there and it was unlikely he would have got through.

The second break when he came inside set up Burrell's try so it was the right thing to do.

Nowell could try and do the same, he tries too hard to make the break that isn't there and gets isolated too much, he needs to look at the inside options and get back to support when a break is not likely.

Yarde has had a few games now and has been training with the squad; maybe he should come back in place of Nowell for the Italy game, especially if we are going to go for broke and try and get to 50+

by Cyril Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:27 pm

Taffineastbourne wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:What did Hartley do wrong?

He only gave away one penalty I think and played Hibbard off the pitch
Three penalties.Must have been getting close to a yellow.

For different offences though?

One was for catching the ball in an offside position, wasn't it?

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:29 pm

I don't think Hartley played that well, he was responsible for some stupid pens.

He's had an impressive 6N though, he's nailed that 2 jersey.

by Geordie Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:30 pm

The thing that is interesting on some of the threads ive read is the idea that Wales lost because they played badly...not the fact that England didnt let them play well.

Interesting.

by Breadvan Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:32 pm

The wingers are raw internationally but I wouldnt discard them altogether. Nowells done nothing wrong but yes, maybe Yarde could start v Italy.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:32 pm

Cyril wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:What did Hartley do wrong?

He only gave away one penalty I think and played Hibbard off the pitch
Three penalties.Must have been getting close to a yellow.
For different offences though?

One was for catching the ball in an offside position, wasn't it?

4 apparently. Mccaw once got 5 in less than 20 minutes (warned after the 4th!) and didnt get carded. Hes not even trying!

Context does mean a lot here, how many were cynical rather than technical, how many were dangerous, how many were game changes, how many were in the red zone, had teams/the individual already been warned?

by HammerofThunor Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:33 pm

Yeah, they should stay in the squad as wing options but they haven't done enough that I wouldn't start Yarde in the Autumn if he's fit.

by Exiledinborders Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:36 pm

Cyril wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:What did Hartley do wrong?

He only gave away one penalty I think and played Hibbard off the pitch
Three penalties.Must have been getting close to a yellow.
For different offences though?

One was for catching the ball in an offside position, wasn't it?

I thought he was a tad unlucky. For the catch in an offside position it would not have been obvious to him whether it was knocked forward by England or back by Wales. That should be accidental offside and not a penalty. The final penalty the Welsh player in catching the ball jumped at Hartley rather than Hartley moving to tackle him in the air.

by Scrumpy Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:42 pm

I hope England don't chase the massive points difference that they have to over come, lets win the game 1st, then worry about the points.

We all know that apart from one magic move in Paris and a couple of bad bounces we should have won that game, but alas it wasn't to be this year. If Ireland do go on and win then they will be worthy champions due to their fantastic defence this year, plus its BODs send off, unless he gets dropped for the final game!

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:44 pm

If Ireland do win (assuming England beat Scotland) we can at least content ourselves by pointing out how devalued a win on points difference is when the second placed team beat you.

Yknow, like when England last won.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:51 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:I thought he was a tad unlucky. For the catch in an offside position it would not have been obvious to him whether it was knocked forward by England or back by Wales. That should be accidental offside and not a penalty. The final penalty the Welsh player in catching the ball jumped at Hartley rather than Hartley moving to tackle him in the air.

Can it be accidental offside when he deliberately plays the ball? Yes he may not of known he was in an offside position, but he did deliberately play it. Last penalty, was not malicious but was clumsy. That they were 3 differnt offences in two separate halves explain why no YC.

Over all it was not Hartley's best performance of the season. His first two lineout throws were very crooked, and a player with a lesser reputation for accuracy would have been pinged (and pilloried on here), while his perfect record at lineouts was spoilt by the AWJ steal. Overall though this season he has been excellent- he must be frustrated with himselfd just how often he blots his own copybook with dumb things followed by long bans.

by Cowshot Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:52 pm

Few things that occurred to me while watching the game a second time:

1) What a difference a decent pitch makes!

2) The Hartley penalties: Off his feet at the ruck - yes, but his feet were taken out by bodies and he sort of bellyflopped onto it. Not as bad imo as deliberately going in off his feet which he didn't. Taking out Faletau in the air - yes, but am I not right in recalling you are not allowed to jump into an opponent? There's at least a case to argue that is what Faletau did. So while both penalties were entirely justified, they weren't BAD penalties, if you see what I mean. This might explain why he didn't get a serious talking to.

3) Our lads played very well. No question. Our defence was very good indeed. But gosh Wales really did their bit to make us look good. Can't see any of the SH sides giving us that sort of time to gather and run back kicks. We'll need more than this to deal with NZ or SA. What's really exciting is the feeling that these lads and the returners from injuries might well develop into a squad that can do a lot more. However, I have long suspected that it takes 6 seasons to develop a WC winning squad and 2015 will be too soon for these boys. Hope I'm wrong!

4) Rule change that has done a great deal to improve the game but never gets mentioned? Being allowed to pass when on the floor.

5) Both May and Nowells have improved, Nowells more than May, but neither yet look truly convincing at this level.

6) Launchbury, Lawes, Brown, Care. Starting to look genuinely world class.

by HammerofThunor Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:54 pm

I do wonder in the cases where it's not clear who knocked on whether you'd get done for deliberate offside or not. You deliberately played it but didn't think you were offside. I suppose it's up to the ref.

There was one point where several players deliberately didn't play the ball whilst coming back because they thought it had been knocked on. Just went back into the defensive line and let one of the opposition pick it up (that might not have been the England game)

by beshocked Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:55 pm

Londontiger Hartley did have a pretty poor game but overall he's been pretty good for England since the AIs so he can be forgiven for this one.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:56 pm

And how good was Burrell!

It's going to be hard to drop either him or Twelvetrees (who had his best game in an England shirt imo).

by HammerofThunor Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:56 pm

Falatau didn't have the ball when he jumped, so it's not really any different from jumping to catch any ball. But you ever get a hospital pass again...just jump just before catching the ball.

by HammerofThunor Mon 10 Mar 2014, 1:58 pm

There's a pretty good chance that Burrell will be in the Premiership final. If Leicester aren't then Tuilagi will have his chance against Barbarians and New Zealand 1st test (probably)

by Cowshot Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:01 pm

Burrell looks very good indeed. Had he scored that second try I'd have added him to L L B and C as starting to look world class. Maybe I'm being a bit hard on him.

by tazfalklands Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:03 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
englandglory4ever wrote:Can halfpenny actually run? I've never seen a fullback get so much ball and just kick it aimlessly away. He looked like a one trick pony all day.

Brown kicked 9 times, Halpenny 7.

Brown may have kicked more than 1/2p but at leats 4 of those kicks he was there to chllenge the catcher, whilst 1/2p were long with practically no challenge, thats not 1/2p fault, it's the way Wales wanted to play the game.

by XR Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:15 pm

tazfalklands wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
englandglory4ever wrote:Can halfpenny actually run? I've never seen a fullback get so much ball and just kick it aimlessly away. He looked like a one trick pony all day.

Brown kicked 9 times, Halpenny 7.

Brown may have kicked more than 1/2p but at leats 4 of thos kicks he was there to cahllenge the catcher, whilst 1/2p were long with practically no challenge, thats not 1/2p fault, it's the way Wales wanted to play the game.

Correct, 1/2p can run as seen on the lions and also for the blues but the way wales play and how gatland wants to play, the never ending kicking just stifles him and the entire back 3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDcVwDhepd0

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:21 pm

gcBlues wrote:
tazfalklands wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
englandglory4ever wrote:Can halfpenny actually run? I've never seen a fullback get so much ball and just kick it aimlessly away. He looked like a one trick pony all day.

Brown kicked 9 times, Halpenny 7.

Brown may have kicked more than 1/2p but at leats 4 of thos kicks he was there to cahllenge the catcher, whilst 1/2p were long with practically no challenge, thats not 1/2p fault, it's the way Wales wanted to play the game.

Correct, 1/2p can run as seen on the lions and also for the blues but the way wales play and how gatland wants to play, the never ending kicking just stifles him and the entire back 3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDcVwDhepd0

This is ridiculous, Wales kicked less than England, both percentage wise and actual number. Halfpenny kicked less than Brown. He kicked a higher percentage of possession in the 3rd lions test than he did yesterday and only once less. Wales kicked a far lower percenatge of posession yesterday than the Lions did in the third test.

Its simply untrue to say that Wales and HAlfpenny kick everything. Its just that sometimes (yesterday included) he/they dont do it as well as other days. But to suggest its aimless and endless is just repeating bunk and not born out by facts.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:23 pm

Cowshot wrote:Burrell looks very good indeed. Had he scored that second try I'd have added him to L L B and C as starting to look world class. Maybe I'm being a bit hard on him.

I don't think he's ready for the world class bracket so early in his Int career but he's certainly slotted in well. His distribution is top notch and he always looks a threat. His defence has also been fantastic, that tackle on Roberts when dislodged the ball was right up there.

by Chjw131 Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:26 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Cowshot wrote:Burrell looks very good indeed. Had he scored that second try I'd have added him to L L B and C as starting to look world class. Maybe I'm being a bit hard on him.

I don't think he's ready for the world class bracket so early in his Int career but he's certainly slotted in well. His distribution is top notch and he always looks a threat. His defence has also been fantastic, that tackle on Roberts when dislodged the ball was right up there.

He's a long way away from that tag at present. Having said that his performances have been steadily impressive. The Wales game was his best and he put in some top work.

by aitchw Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:34 pm

Burrell has come on by leaps and bounds. When he left Carnegie he was good but immature. all speed and muscle. His first season in the Prem he looked a bit lost at times and out of his depth but since then it has been onwards and upwards. His skills have improved and he reads the game well and has got better with every appearance for England. He plays a bit like League centre, his try was straight out of the League playbook. If Sam Burgess adapts quickly enough there could be scary options in the centre in terms of sheer power and skill. Burrell has stepped up and made a name for himself this 6 Nations and there's more to come.

by Scrumpy Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:36 pm

Burrell has been the player of the tournament so far, imo! Very Happy

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:38 pm

Scrumpy wrote:Burrell has been the player of the tournament so far, imo!

A few Irishmen and Brown just shuffled uncomfortably in their chairs when they read that.

by Chjw131 Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:40 pm

Scrumpy wrote:Burrell has been the player of the tournament so far, imo!

I don't think i'd even have him as English player of the tournament despite how well he's done. Lawes would be my choice. Brown in the backs.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:42 pm

Scrumpy wrote:Burrell has been the player of the tournament so far, imo!

I think Brown has that wrapped up, I'd certainly say he's been the best 13 though.

by Scrumpy Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:43 pm

3 tries in 4 games for an England Centre is unheard of!

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:45 pm

Didn't Manu have a similar record Scrumpy?

Where does Manu fit in????

by Scrumpy Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:46 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Didn't Manu have a similar record Scrumpy?

Where does Manu fit in????

But his tries were lucky tries!

by Metal Tiger Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:46 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Falatau didn't have the ball when he jumped, so it's not really any different from jumping to catch any ball. But you ever get a hospital pass again...just jump just before catching the ball.

That should have been a straight penalty to England. He jumped into the tackle Whistle

by Geordie Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:49 pm

Chjw131 wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:Burrell has been the player of the tournament so far, imo!

I don't think i'd even have him as English player of the tournament despite how well he's done. Lawes would be my choice. Brown in the backs.

Dont forget the guys who do the unseen work...Wood, Launchbury, Marler etc have all impressed and done the nasty stuff...

Having said that Lawes is a good shout...but i suspect it'll be Care or Brown.

by Scrumpy Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:49 pm

Don't forget it was nearly 4 from 4!

Brown has done ok but a FB will always have good stats for metres made, and yes his good under the high ball (so was Matt Perry!) but player of the tournament? hmmm?

by Geordie Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:50 pm

Metal Tiger wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Falatau didn't have the ball when he jumped, so it's not really any different from jumping to catch any ball. But you ever get a hospital pass again...just jump just before catching the ball.

That should have been a straight penalty to England. He jumped into the tackle

Yeah i thought he did jump in to the tackle to be fair.

by Cyril Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:51 pm

Metal Tiger wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Falatau didn't have the ball when he jumped, so it's not really any different from jumping to catch any ball. But you ever get a hospital pass again...just jump just before catching the ball.

That should have been a straight penalty to England. He jumped into the tackle

Yeah, Tulip just launched himself. Maybe he thought he was still in the line-out. Weird situation, that one. Glad it wasn't a game changer!

by Chjw131 Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:55 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Chjw131 wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:Burrell has been the player of the tournament so far, imo!

I don't think i'd even have him as English player of the tournament despite how well he's done. Lawes would be my choice. Brown in the backs.

Dont forget the guys who do the unseen work...Wood, Launchbury, Marler etc have all impressed and done the nasty stuff...

Having said that Lawes is a good shout...but i suspect it'll be Care or Brown.

Agree they've all been very strong. I'd like to see last years lineout stats v this years though.

by Scrumpy Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:59 pm

Cyril wrote:
Metal Tiger wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Falatau didn't have the ball when he jumped, so it's not really any different from jumping to catch any ball. But you ever get a hospital pass again...just jump just before catching the ball.

That should have been a straight penalty to England. He jumped into the tackle
Yeah, Tulip just launched himself. Maybe he thought he was still in the line-out. Weird situation, that one. Glad it wasn't a game changer!

Someone was sent to the showers early in a game at my school for jumping a tackle, the PE Teacher said it was unsportsmanlike behaviour.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 10 Mar 2014, 2:59 pm

Scrumpy wrote:Don't forget it was nearly 4 from 4!

Brown has done ok but a FB will always have good stats for metres made, and yes his good under the high ball (so was Matt Perry!) but player of the tournament? hmmm?

I don't tend to read too much into stats, Brown has been outstanding every game that's without question. He's outplayed some top players in Kearney, Hogg and Halfpenny.

by Scrumpy Mon 10 Mar 2014, 3:00 pm

Still Burrell over Brown for me.

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