Debuts Under Lancaster

30 players made their first test appearance under Stuart Lancaster. Of these I would argue that only Phil Dowson (who was past his best and probably always too slow) was a real WTF selection. Some we may never see again (Turner-Hall, Waldrom) but at the time their selections made sense due to their own form and injuries. 6 of these players featured for the Lions last summer.

Any way - an interesting set of names.


BM Barritt, FS Burns, LD Burrell, LAW Dickson, PDA Dowson, KO Eastmond, OA Farrell, GT Ford, AD Goode, TA Johnson, JBA Joseph, MB Kvesic, JO Launchbury, JWG Marler, JJ May, BJ Morgan, SJ Myler, JT Nowell, GMW Parling, HM Thomas, JA Tomkins, J Turner-Hall, WWF Twelvetrees, MWIWNA Vunipola, VML Vunipola, C Wade, TR Waldrom, RW Webber, MXG Yarde, TN Youngs,

And for what it is worth the people who made their debuts under Johnson:

DA Armitage, SE Armitage, CJ Ashton, DMJ Attwood, MA Banahan, MJ Botha, DR Cole, AR Corbisiero, JS Crane, PPL Doran Jones, AO Erinle, RJ Flutey, BJ Foden, CH Fourie, SE Hape, DM Hartley, NJ Kennedy, CL Lawes, TA May, UCC Monye, MJ Mullan, CDC Robshaw, C Sharples, JPM Simpson, EM Tuilagi, SB Vesty, DG Wilson, TA Wood, BR Youngs,


A few more WTF names, even if some were due to injuries etc. Interestingly, again 6 Lions in that set of names.





(ps yes, bored at work)

And finally the match between the two:

Lancs Lads:

Marler, Youngs, Thomas, Launchbury, Parling, Johnson, Kvesic, Vunipola
Dickson, Farrell, Yarde, Twelvetrees, Burrell, Wade, Goode


vs


Johno's Juniors:

Corbs, Hartley, Cole/Wilson, Lawes, Attwood, Wood, Fourie*, Crane
Youngs, Vestey(!!!!!), Ashton, Flutey, Manu, Monye, Foden

*Unfair to put Robshaw in as he was really completely ignored.

Nice work LT, although your boss may not see it like that! The feel I get around Lancaster's selections is that he's always had the end goal of how he wants England to play which I didn't always get from Johnson. It seems like he's much more likely to get players in earlier for instance people were calling for Lawes to get a chance ages before he actually did.

Don't know if the timings of players getting their chances backs that up but it's definately how it seems.

I think Foden coming in for Armitage and Ashton on the wing fit what you are saying . Lawes was first capped in 2009 off the bench against Australia, just a couple of weeks after he burst into Stuart Barnes consciousness when playing Munster. Then, as since, injuries meant he was unable to make his first start until the Summer of 2010.

Take out the lions summer tour players and a few of the cuckoos fly out especially in Johnsons squad, and for both bear in mind the huge injury lists that ended up with chaps like Thomas, Nowell,Erinle and Goode(fat) getting capped.

The only really funky ones would be Fourie ..who played well and Dowson who tbf was only ever a place sitter. OK perhaps Hape too, certainly the amount of time he was persisted with.

I was on a tour of Twickenham a few weeks back and it was interesting to look at the player numbers in the dressing room (each England player now has a unique number indicating that they are the [n]th player to have played for England - similar to the All Blacks). The lowest player number in the current squad is Brown (first capped in Brian Ashton's tour of SA, IIRC) and I think the next might be Care. After that, I think we are into the Johnson era with Cole.

Of Johnson's era, only Cole, Corbs, Hartley, B Youngs, Manu, Foden and Ashton have been central players for both coaches and it's not impossible that none of them would make the RWC15 starting XV. Though in reality it's almost certain that Hartley would start if fit and any or all of those could make the bench.

Funnily enough, I was looking at exactly the same data. Here's a wiki page showing England Test debuts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_national_rugby_union_players

No 7&1/2 wrote:...for instance people were calling for Lawes to get a chance ages before he actually did...

That's a bit harsh. Lawes won his first cap at 20. Just a couple of weeks ago, Paul Grayson said one of the reasons Lawes started to get injured is because his Test career started so early. Grayson thinks he didn't have time to do enough conditioning work - especially after the long World Cup season - so his body started to fall behind what he was trying to do on the pitch. He thinks he's only really caught up again recently.

Just out of curioisty are there any names on either list that have:

a - surpassed expectations and surprised people by staying in the set up and proving their worth or

b - on flip side been expected to really push and establish themselves but failed to?

bedfordwelsh wrote:Just out of curioisty are there any names on either list that have:

a - surpassed expectations and surprised people by staying in the set up and proving their worth or

b - on flip side been expected to really push and establish themselves but failed to?

A little hard to judge with the Lancaster list as still time.

From the Johnso list I would say that Delon Armitage (some would also say Steffon) and Sharples should have achieved more for England.

On the reverse I always thought that Robshaw was a good allrounder who was a notch below international class. I was wrong.

Robshaw has had a slightly bumpy road on his international journey (mainly due to being behind the then captain and then being captain) but he has come through very well. I agree with you LT I didn't think he'd be as good as he has been.

I think Johnno had the wrong coaches to guide him as manager but he laid some foundations SL has worked from pretty well.

Bit harsh to write sharples off just yet.He is still in the Saxons and is only 24,still time for him to come good.

LondonTiger wrote:30 players made their first test appearance under Stuart Lancaster. Of these I would argue that only Phil Dowson (who was past his best and probably always too slow) was a real WTF selection. Some we may never see again (Turner-Hall, Waldrom) but at the time their selections made sense due to their own form and injuries. 6 of these players featured for the Lions last summer.

Any way - an interesting set of names.


BM Barritt, FS Burns, LD Burrell, LAW Dickson, PDA Dowson, KO Eastmond, OA Farrell, GT Ford, AD Goode, TA Johnson, JBA Joseph, MB Kvesic, JO Launchbury, JWG Marler, JJ May, BJ Morgan, SJ Myler, JT Nowell, GMW Parling, HM Thomas, JA Tomkins, J Turner-Hall, WWF Twelvetrees, MWIWNA Vunipola, VML Vunipola, C Wade, TR Waldrom, RW Webber, MXG Yarde, TN Youngs,

How many games did we play with no-one noticing our half-backs initials were "LAWD" and "OAF"? And were 36's parents some weirdo wrestling fans? At least the Vunipolas up the quality.

Wi11 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:30 players made their first test appearance under Stuart Lancaster. Of these I would argue that only Phil Dowson (who was past his best and probably always too slow) was a real WTF selection. Some we may never see again (Turner-Hall, Waldrom) but at the time their selections made sense due to their own form and injuries. 6 of these players featured for the Lions last summer.

Any way - an interesting set of names.


BM Barritt, FS Burns, LD Burrell, LAW Dickson, PDA Dowson, KO Eastmond, OA Farrell, GT Ford, AD Goode, TA Johnson, JBA Joseph, MB Kvesic, JO Launchbury, JWG Marler, JJ May, BJ Morgan, SJ Myler, JT Nowell, GMW Parling, HM Thomas, JA Tomkins, J Turner-Hall, WWF Twelvetrees, MWIWNA Vunipola, VML Vunipola, C Wade, TR Waldrom, RW Webber, MXG Yarde, TN Youngs,

How many games did we play with no-one noticing our half-backs initials were "LAWD" and "OAF"? And were 36's parents some weirdo wrestling fans? At least the Vunipolas up the quality.

To think the parents of 36 could have done everyone a favor by giving him a middle name like Thomas

Yarde definitely has the X factor   

Rugby Fan wrote:Funnily enough, I was looking at exactly the same data. Here's a wiki page showing England Test debuts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_national_rugby_union_players

No 7&1/2 wrote:...for instance people were calling for Lawes to get a chance ages before he actually did...

That's a bit harsh. Lawes won his first cap at 20. Just a couple of weeks ago, Paul Grayson said one of the reasons Lawes started to get injured is because his Test career started so early. Grayson thinks he didn't have time to do enough conditioning work - especially after the long World Cup season - so his body started to fall behind what he was trying to do on the pitch. He thinks he's only really caught up again recently.

Paul was absolutely right. Lawes was still developing and injuries were virtually inevitable. We had all discussed this and agreed it was a mistake. But how does one prevent a lad with a bright future from going to play for his country if called?