Ulster 2013/2014

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Any reason why he didnt make an appearance for the Ravens?

Mistaken identity I'm afraid.     

[ed] Like the Tuilagis often are.

Still doesn't explain why you would think the moment that a players career was ended was a great memory.

That's embarrassingly bad order. Mistaken identity or not revelling in any players career ending injury is disgusting.

Nothing too much wrong with Tuilagis tackle, just no idea why you'd post it up when its resulted in a player having to retire.

Never mind- team is announced soon for the playoff I assume?

Notch wrote:Nothing too much wrong with Tuilagis tackle, just no idea why you'd post it up when its resulted in a player having to retire.

Never mind- team is announced soon for the playoff I assume?

I always thought NFN only applied to those born there. The evidence from this forum suggests I was mistaken!

Whats NFN stand for?

Normal for Norfolk? Not f***ing nice? I'm just guessing here.

Ulster XV and replacements to face Leinster, RaboDirect PRO12 play-off, RDS, Saturday 17th May (kick off 19:00): (15-9): C Gilroy, T Bowe, J Payne, D Cave, A Trimble, P Jackson, R Pienaar; (1-8); C Black, R Best, R Lutton, J Muller (Captain), I Henderson, R Diack, C Henry, R Wilson.

Replacements (16-23): R Herring, A Warwick, A Macklin, D Tuohy, S Doyle, P Marshall, J McKinney, L Marshall.

In fairness to Portnoy, if he posted that video on the back of a conversation about recently retiring Paddy Wallace, I think its safe to assume that he didn't know that the incident he posted was indeed career ending for Davey.

Still being a nuisance... just maybe not a malicious one.


As for the team. Little shocked. But maybe considering we are playing a side who has a history of figuring us out and neutralising our threats - maybe giving them something unfamiliar isn't such a bad thing.

Here's hoping! Gilroy has had an off season compared to last. Hope this is a game where we see him step up!

Maybe he should have watched the clip he was posting before rejoicing over a career ending injury to the wrong player? Or, maybe he did!

I can understand someone who does not know very much about rugby getting backrow David Wallace mixed up with inside centre/OH Paddy Wallace.

I can not understand how any human being can rejoice about an injury that ended a career. Or any injury for that matter.

Not a rugby fan.

MrsP wrote:Ulster XV and replacements to face Leinster, RaboDirect PRO12 play-off, RDS, Saturday 17th May (kick off 19:00): (15-9): C Gilroy, T Bowe, J Payne, D Cave, A Trimble, P Jackson, R Pienaar; (1-8); C Black, R Best, R Lutton, J Muller (Captain), I Henderson, R Diack, C Henry, R Wilson.

Replacements (16-23): R Herring, A Warwick, A Macklin, D Tuohy, S Doyle, P Marshall, J McKinney, L Marshall.  

Bench looks a bit weak but other than that a decent looking side.

Seems to be a lot of optimism from the Ulster posters - surely Leinster start as reasonably heavy favourites here?

I know the match thread is in full flow, but sometimes the things that need talked about are not helped by the opposition chiming in.

Ulster may have dominated most of that game. But when I say dominated, I don't really mean dominated. Possession and territory don't mean squat if you have no killer blow.

Leinster have the killer blow, they always have. I'm not sure we ever have.

Totally gutted, totally fed up with Leinster. But I'm actually quite annoyed with Ulster. I was fairly pro-anscombe before know but I may just be open to hearing the points of the anti group now.

I've never seen so much awful open play kicking from Ulster. The center partnership didn't have to be changed for this game. Why on earth did we suddenly decide McKinney was good enough as a sub 10 in a match of this standard.

Was Pienaar not fit? Why did we refuse to shift him to 10?

Is McKinney not a further drop in quality from Jackson than Marshall is from Pienaar?

Its still all about squad depth.

This is the worrying thing.

We are losing more than we are replacing this summer when truth is, we are already too weak in terms of full squad.

I say, bring on iHump, bring Ludik, bring Hogg even, and then go find even more.

Leinster had a 28caps springbok on their bench for goodness sake.

We had AIL (at worst) and ITM (at best) standard players to come on.

We are in danger of turning from an incline to a decline, and their was no great view from our 'peak'.

Aye Clive I agree. I think we should save post-mortems or such like for this thread. In truth I'm at a bit of a loss. I'm still not convinced it's Anscombe's fault but nor am I convinced next season will lead to silverware.

He isn't along amongst the coaches needing looked at though. Doak has (on paper) one of the best back lines in Europe but too often against the top teams we don't see it.

Notch mentioned the Payne switch which to be honest I wasn't fussed on but I don't think (in an attacking sense) we would have faired any better. It seems to me off 1st and 2nd phase we are running intelligent angles and making yards but we stagnate after that. It's quite similar to Matt Williams time as I recall.

Another little point I noticed was the lack of support runners. If you are running angles and set moves it stands to reason you need men running off the carrier for the offload. In the first half, despite numerous breaks and possession I only noticed one instance were this was an option and Payne just was looking the wrong way to put Trimble in.

That said I agree with your point on depth but not as regards who we are letting go (maybe Annett aside). What we need to do to get depth is bring through the academy guys and give them meaningful experience in pro12 terms of playing in the system and alongside the 1st team guys.

We need to develop our play in the red zone against the top defences as well and we badly need tight carriers. We will see what Herbst brings in this regard.

This season has represented a decline. We peaked last year, getting to another final we bottled as badly as we did in this one. All the coaches have a year left and we need to identify better replacements for them across the next year because what happened to us in this game is exactly the same thing that happened when we lost the semi-final in 2011 and the final in 2013. Those games are incredibly similar to the game yesterday. You can talk about learning the lessons and taking the hurt as motivation for next year but it's painfully obvious that the coaches and senior players haven't been able to do that.

We should have scored at least 20 points in that game. To be coming off a game of this magnitude with that much possession in the red zone without scoring a try is utterly disgraceful, quite frankly. Not enough variety in our attack, too much slow ball with Pienaar just picking out static runners. No-one on the shoulder looking for an offload. No-one looking to give an offload. When we go wide we threw miss passes instead of drawing the defence. We just ran up the guts against the best breakdown team in Europe which gave them chance after chance to slow down our ball and spoil at the rucks and then Pienaar- who should have been hauled off after about 60 minutes- took an age to get it out to static ball carriers. We just made it so easy and comfortable for the Leinster defence in trying to smash our way over and this has been a feature of our play since before Anscombe arrived and literally no progress has been made on that whatsoever.

There was no looking at a strategy to break down Leinster in the red zone, of that I am certain, because it's an absolute carbon copy of how we played against them in 2011 and 2013 and how they shut us out in those games. For the coaches to have changed literally nothing is just so damning, I'm not disappointed I'm incredibly angry.

The failure of this side to show up at the business end of the season three years in a row is a criminal waste of talent and potential.

I agree with a lot of that Notch. I'm probably not as angry as you but I agree especially when you consider the relative knockout games against Leinster in the last two years.

I would give Jonny Bell a bit of immunity on the coaching front because I think keeping Leinster to low scores is impressive as has been our defence for most of the season. Our attack is a worry.

I don't think we have necessarily regressed but we certainly haven't kicked on. I'm not certain we have peaked but I honestly have to shrug my shoulders with how next season will go. A lot of that is down to the relative unknowns (for me) coming in but unless we see something different from the backs and Olding coming back I don't think it will end in silverware

It's very interesting to read the comments here and I'm heartbroken for Ulster this season. Just thinking back over the terrible run with injuries and missing bodies this season. Best missing months with ankle damage, Pienaar with the same shoulder problems, Tuohy and Wilson out with niggly fractures, Afoa damaging disks, Trimble missing games with concussion and Payne being banned.

I think it depends how you regard this urine awful luck. Either you believe that (a) this would affect any team in a fairly devastating way and leagues and cups are decided by tiny margins that inevitably go to things like this or (b) a team the size of Ulster should have had quality alternatives to these players standing by with a ready understanding of what they had to do. A lot of people seem to be going with (b).

I wouldn't profess to know enough about the team to know whether Anscombe's strategies were flawed. It is very difficult to conclude that they were fatally holed below the water line when they were responsible for the best Heineken Cup run in the tournament. I hope that there is money to invest in the close season because I do agree that this is a pivotal time for the club. They need to trim the fat and keep the quality.

Really wish them best of luck because I've been to Ravenhill a couple of times and the fans are absolutely gold.

There are wider issues, but talking about the game specifically...

a) Pienaar was poor at times, I think he was carrying an injury - he hashed an easy 3 points at the start, missed touch a few times - perhaps cost us the game dare I say it?
b) McKinney? Was this something to do with Pienaar potentially carrying an injury? Why does the player we never trusted all year get the nod off the bench in a game like this? Why not Marshall on and Ruan to 10? I honestly believe Jackson might have been the difference in our attack in the last 10 minutes.
c) at 72 minutes I said "take the points" - old lady beside me says "why? three isn't enough, go for the try". Its easy to say in hindsight, but after seeing the Leinster defensive effort, wouldn't we have been better off in the last 8 minutes looking for a drop at goal?
d) in the past 4/5 games I've seen a ridiculous amount of garryowns from Ulster that were far too long/had no chasers/easy marks for opposition full backs. This kind of giving the ball away is just criminal, as was missed touches from pens.

A) Pienaar had a shocker. Hardly surprising given he was only back but still a shocker. What is disappointing is we have tried Heaney, Marshall and Porter this season as his backup and none have inspired enough confidence that we felt we could start him on the bench or change things up.
B) McKinney is a trickier one. Part of me agrees with you Clive except I don't think moving a badly misfiring Pienaar to ten would have fared any better. There is an element of rewarding McKinney with the shirt but then again I he cost us with a bad missed tackle. IHumph will fare no better in this regard but is infinitely more capable going the other way and also taking the drop goals you mention.
C) I agree with your missus. We had to score a try for me. We couldn't. We didn't deserve it
D) the kicking wasn't all that bad and in fairness in then go first half particularly we tried using the ball more. I do think in general we kick too much though. I don't recall a massive number of marks called by Leinster though

Ulster's lack of silverware for another season is down to a number of factors.

1. Lack of carriers in the pack. When Williams and Afoa are missing there simply aren't enough ball carriers with only Henderson in any way effective yesterday. Battering away 5 metres out needs dynamic power to force a score and Henderson can't do it on his own.

2. Lack of on-field decisiveness by Paddy Jackson. He is not the finished article yet and has been learning on the job for the past two years. When the pack obviously aren't going to score he should be taking drops at goal rather than wait until the ball is inevitably turned over. I was told that he doesn't have the confidence yet to know when to take that decision.

3. Lack of pragmatism in on-field leadership. Muller is a motivator, not a tactician, but when he isn't on the pitch it falls apart too often. With 8 minutes left and four points in it Ulster should have kicked the penalty rather than kicking for the line. They hadn't got their maul working all game so with the pressure of a score needed and against a superior bench what made them think it would suddenly come good? There was plenty of time left to score again. Another example is the lack of advantage gleaned from opposition yellow cards. An opportunist in the side would have exploited the midfield weakness to get the maximum benefit.

4. We don't know the background behind the Payne to 13 decision but it smacked of IRFU/Schmidt interference. Maybe someone thought it would be a good idea to pit him against the past master, but it was unfair to drop Gilroy into such an important and unfamiliar position. Gilroy may well have a future at 15 but such an important game wasn't the place to experiment. I seriously doubt that Anscombe/Humphreys were in favour of that selection.

Everything I've heard indicates that the Payne to 13 selection is driven by one person; Jared Payne. Its NOT IRFU interference. More than one person I know and trust attests to this. They are appeasing his own desire to move to outside centre. It was the wrong call and if Payne can't live with being told his future for Ulster lies at fullback then he should move on to pastures new. No matter how good a player he is, he is not bigger than the team and moving multiple players out of position to accommodate him will only end in resentment.

How would you feel if you were Darren Cave in this scenario, or Craig Gilroy? We've done well to get rid of one Kiwi who was bad for dressing room unity; we don't need another. We can't have him coming back next season and putting his desire to replace BOD ahead of what Ulster want and need. The team comes first. I wasn't impressed with the latitude John Afoa was given and we seem to be falling into the same trap of appeasing a senior player at the expense of other players, which is a recipe for disaster imo.

If it is the case that Payne is dictating that then I agree Notch but I haven't heard anything like that so I'm not going to bad mouth him. Any interview he has given I have seen him say he just has to try and get into the backline. All I can judge him on is what I have seen.

I would be in favour of looking at Marshall and Olding. I don't agree with Aukster on going for the 3 pointer but it's interesting about Paddy being unsure about when to take a drop. If anything Humphreys is a wonderfully instinctive ten and I would hope he could help him in that respect. I still remember his snap drop at Thomond which was exceptional

I'm not badmouthing him, but if the management are seen to be playing favourites with certain players it will kill us. I don't blame him for wanting to play 13, with the vacancy left by BOD but we have to treat our other players fairly as well.

If Anscombe and the coaches agree with where he is playing it's a non story. It's definitely fishy how Gilroy has been parachuted in with no form though

Standulstermen wrote:If Anscombe and the coaches agree with where he is playing it's a non story. It's definitely fishy how Gilroy has been parachuted in with no form though

No, that is the story. Coaches playing favourites and leading to a divided dressing room.

Not really notch. If Anscombe, Doak et al think he is best used at 13 that's the call they are paid to make. You are assuming it is because Payne wants this and not because they actually think it's where he is best

Given their recent track record, I don't have much faith in them to make that judgment. And I would say a semi-final was not the best place to try him there with Cave for the first time.

I wouldn't disagree with that notch and I was against that selection and I also agree that I'm not certain there arent better (backs) coaches out there. That said if they made the call it's not Paynes fault.

What I would say is that I have seen nothing from Payne at 13 (recently) that would make me overlook Henshaw, particularly given their respective ages

He's just not that good at centre. He's perfectly competent, but not as good as he can be from 15. Feels like his head has been turned by all the Ireland international talk.

Hopefully not. Olding coming back will be a key indicator. If his form returns with him to my mind that's a centre spot gone. Also depends on other signings

I still don't think we have seen Payne at 13 enough to judge him compared with his ability at 13, and whilst I understand your annoyance Notch, your points, whilst valid, don't really answer much about the result yesterday IMO.

No, IMO, there were many many more things at fault before I would blame the rejigged backline.

Scrum misfired, maul misfired, kicking misfired, we brought on an AIL standard 10, we coughed up penalties, we coughed up possession, our defence got sliced open too many times.

The defence only failed once - which was enough. McKinney got in on the back of a MOTM performance and with the doubts over Pienaar, Anscombe had to have a goal kicking option. McKinney will be looked at in a few years like Steenson is now, and some will wonder how he was let go.

There were too many returnees to have a coherent performance, and that over reliance is something that needs improved.

Personally I don't think Payne has the acceleration to be an outstanding 13. He has the ability to come into the line from fullback because he has a great view of the game but he doesn't have the acceleration to turn a half gap into a break from 13. Unfortunately Cave doesn't have the explosion of pace either. BOD hasn't had it for about 5 years but he has got by with his wider all round game. To be fair to Kidney, Earls has the oomph off the mark but his passing is inadequate...

Cave is effective at 13 for Ulster because Trimble and Bowe come inside to make the incisive breaks - that's a sign the coaching set-up working. Payne could be effective there too but he's currently effective at 15 for Ulster. He may want to play Test rugby but his best chance is from 15, because that's simply where he is world class.

The Great Aukster wrote:The defence only failed once - which was enough. McKinney got in on the back of a MOTM performance and with the doubts over Pienaar, Anscombe had to have a goal kicking option. McKinney will be looked at in a few years like Steenson is now, and some will wonder how he was let go.

There were too many returnees to have a coherent performance, and that over reliance is something that needs improved.

Personally I don't think Payne has the acceleration to be an outstanding 13. He has the ability to come into the line from fullback because he has a great view of the game but he doesn't have the acceleration to turn a half gap into a break from 13. Unfortunately Cave doesn't have the explosion of pace either. BOD hasn't had it for about 5 years but he has got by with his wider all round game. To be fair to Kidney, Earls has the oomph off the mark but his passing is inadequate...

Cave is effective at 13 for Ulster because Trimble and Bowe come inside to make the incisive breaks - that's a sign the coaching set-up working. Payne could be effective there too but he's currently effective at 15 for Ulster. He may want to play Test rugby but his best chance is from 15, because that's simply where he is world class.

I'm pretty sure Leinster broke our line and had our defense scarmbling at least three times. Something I don't think we did once to them.

Some posters on here have become so fickle, making up absolute crap about payne's supposed "attitudes" and "demands". Wise up, if Geoff where weighing in on this he would have ended those rumours right off! Ok we lost a game we should have one, maybe that's because some of our key players where rusty, Lutton at tighthead, best at 2, peinar at 9. As for carries, but I though hendo did a mighty job on the carrying front and Diack have a few nice runs along with Wilson, if you read Quinlan's article in the times this week, it stated how Ulster get too caught up in the occasion, that shown through in the last 10 min of the match we looked desperate and slightly panicked but that could have due to a poor quality 10 and an injured 9 and most of our pack being out on their asses after wrestling with a star studded Leinster pack. Anscombe has been a revilation for us, our break down work under him is superb, Chris Henry has developed into one of the best in that area, best isn't too far behind. Are wingers are flourishing and look the buisness. He has another year, he has said there are already areas from this season he has pinpointed and will be working on over the summer. I think our signings could be special and our current player depth and versilityis improving. In The words of the great man Gibson "BELIEVE".

BelfastDickVet wrote:Some posters on here have become so fickle, making up absolute crap about payne's supposed "attitudes" and "demands". Wise up, if Geoff where weighing in on this he would have ended those rumours right off! Ok we lost a game we should have one, maybe that's because some of our key players where rusty, Lutton at tighthead, best at 2, peinar at 9. As for carries, but I though hendo did a mighty job on the carrying front and Diack have a few nice runs along with Wilson, if you read Quinlan's article in the times this week, it stated how Ulster get too caught up in the occasion, that shown through in the last 10 min of the match we looked desperate and slightly panicked but that could have due to a poor quality 10 and an injured 9 and most of our pack being out on their asses after wrestling with a star studded Leinster pack. Anscombe has been a revilation for us, our break down work under him is superb, Chris Henry has developed into one of the best in that area, best isn't too far behind. Are wingers are flourishing and look the buisness. He has another year, he has said there are already areas from this season he has pinpointed and will be working on over the summer. I think our signings could be special and our current player depth and versilityis improving. In The words of the great man Gibson "BELIEVE".

Calming words indeed and I have to agree. If Ulster Rugby is being managed in the way that one player can demand what position he plays in then they are a gaggle of cretins. I know they most certainly are not and I don't believe any player would be allowed to attempt to dictate any demands (even though it's surprising how much sway Afoa was given, far too much IMO). We had an unfamiliar backline and obviously rusty players which was our downfall, a hangover from the crazy amount of injuries we've had. We didn't have a chance to play to our strengths, the strengths that have been our bread and butter for a few seasons but hey, we weren't far off beating Leinster at home despite all this.
On the John Afoa subject, the guy is a classy player but his head has been elsewhere all season and if ever there was a player we could have and maybe should have let go it was him. We need our players to be assets to the side, to be 100% playing for the shirt, John was neither this season IMO. No one player should ever receive the special treatment he got. We've found a treasure in young Warwick and he may well have had lots more game time this season had we jettisoned a player who didn't want to be there.

Another season ends with defeat to Leinster....Lets be positive that it will come and the floodgates will open:)

So...with all the rumours...can we summarise....Who is IN and Who is OUT next year?

A few people have blamed the backline a little, and whilst it wouldn't have been my preference, it shouldn't have a downfall.

The goal has to be a team with enough depth and ability, so that changes like that make no (or very little) difference.

Say if Marshall was injured, that backline would have been first choice maybe, and it shouldn't have mattered.

We have to become a squad that is not crippled by injuries or positional unfamiliarities.

We need to have backup players that are good enough so that we aren't forced to rush players back.

We are still far too reliant on very few, and only when they play certain positions.

And in a summer where I believe we need to expand our squad and quality of it, it looks so far as though we have more departing than we are signing or graduating....

And I'm not very hopeful that we will be any better off against Leinster same time next year.

clivemcl wrote:A few people have blamed the backline a little, and whilst it wouldn't have been my preference, it shouldn't have a downfall.

Not sure why when it was our scrum which cost us the game. We created plenty in the backs, just a combination of poor options/service from Pienaar, cynical infringements from Leister at the breakdown and an inability to win our set piece cleanly meant we didn't put points on the board when we needed to.

Backline defence wasn't great - particularly Cave, but there was plenty of invention in attack.

I will always look back and blame that backline choice. Our best 13 at 12 and our best 15 at 13 in a semi-final doesn't make sense. I had hoped it would click and it perhaps should have. An away semi was no time to fiddle though IMO.

On our injury crisis, what is it we're doing that caused so many players to be crocked at one time. Is it our very physical style of play? Well other sides play a similar style and make it through with knocks and bruises. Is it the management rushing players back from injuries? Perhaps, Anscombe apparently goes up against the medical staff in this regard. Is it just bad luck? Who knows.

Next season we will have fewer injuries, we'll keep 15 players on the pitch more often than not and we'll learn from this season and not be beaten by the Dragons and Blues of this league. Positive......believe

Pete330v2 wrote:I will always look back and blame that backline choice. Our best 13 at 12 and our best 15 at 13 in a semi-final doesn't make sense. I had hoped it would click and it perhaps should have. An away semi was no time to fiddle though IMO.

Sorry but that's rubbish Pete. Gilroy was the best player on the pitch and made numerous line breaks. There was nothing wrong with the selection.

Anscombe has done a fantastic job.

Jackson going off was a turning point but its hard to win with a scrum which is getting pushed off the ball.

Pienaar was very poor and his slow service and looping pass is at odds with the game we are trying to play. Numerous times we had Leinster in trouble but he went the wrong direction or checked the attack by throwing miss passes.

Behind a dominant scrum he is a masterful player at controlling the game but he's not suited to the quick ball SH game Anscombe is trying to play.

Also did anyone watch the Sarries v Quins game?

Clancy gave two yellows to Saracens for blatant tip/dangerous tackles which were clearly worse than the two reds Ulster received recently.

The lack of consistently is getting ridiculous.

Trimble was penalised for a perfectly timed tackle on McFadden as soon as his toe touched the ground. Refs really need to stop trusting their instincts, ask to see the screen and make level headed well informed decisions.

Games and their momentum turn on incidents like that tackle. Had it not been wrongly penalised, Ulster could have been spurred on.

Its not been a good year for me in my relationship with refs. Its putting me off the game.

(Exaggeration - Nothing could REALLY put me off the game)

Is Andy Warwick even on a full time contract or is he still on Academy terms?

If I was a Jeff club who needed a loosehead who could also do a shift on the other side, I would be on the phone to Shane Logan right now.

"Sorry but that's rubbish Pete. Gilroy was the best player on the pitch and made numerous line breaks. There was nothing wrong with the selection."

I didn't mean that Gilroy was bad at 15 Rodders, he did indeed have a decent game but I still think Payne does a better job at fullback and would have been better by a country mile.

That penalty against Trimbs was a laugh. The ref could see it clearly and it was a perfectly timed tackle.

I did notice one thing at the weekend, Simon Zebo chasing a high ball, concentrating 100% on the high ball in order that he had the best chance possible to catch it as he ran at full pelt right into an area where a Glasgow player might have been jumping in the air. Simon you reckless fool

I thought the ref didn't penalise Trimble - the penalty was for offside against someone else and he was playing advantage to Leinster? Maybe I'm getting mixed up.

The worst bit of refereeing for me was when Henry was penalised for a breakdown infringement which gives Leinster 3 points - the ref tells Best the Jacklers are getting an unfair advantage and to talk to his players. 5 minutes later Pienaar makes a break close to the Leinster line and gets penalised for hanging on when Leinster kill the ball.

rodders wrote:I thought the ref didn't penalise Trimble - the penalty was for offside against someone else and he was playing advantage to Leinster? Maybe I'm getting mixed up.

The worst bit of refereeing for me was when Henry was penalised for a breakdown infringement which gives Leinster 3 points - the ref tells Best the Jacklers are getting an unfair advantage and to talk to his players. 5 minutes later Pienaar makes a break close to the Leinster line and gets penalised for hanging on when Leinster kill the ball.

I assumed the same when I was at the game Rodders, but watching it back, the commentators seemed to think it was Trimble's tackle that was penalised.

As I continue watching it back here, I've just seen Trimble taken out in the air of the second half restart kick, completely missed by the ref.   

Let me clarify. I don't think the back line had anything to do with it on the day. Luke Marshall wouldn't have added more guile to that midfield, Olding might have but he wasn't available most of the season and for this game... c'est la vie. Nothing anyone can do about that. Was actually very encouraged by how Gilroy played on Saturday, his best performance of the season.

Rather than blaming it for the result- our problems were more to do with Pienaar and the scrum- I'm concerned about the impact this Payne move will have on our back line next season, hence my disquiet. I can't see it being good for dressing room unity either. I have my doubts over how Anscombe is handling the dressing room. You can see in Glasgow the players are willing to fight for each other and make sacrifices regardless of who is on the pitch and I wonder if we have that same culture in Ulster. Don't get me wrong, I think the majority of players have real pride in the shirt and pride in playing for Ulster but I don't think we have that same unity regardless of who plays. Seems to be a big divide between the first team and the second team- the coaches favourites and the outsiders. Was interested to see Paddy Wallace tweet 'Amazing in sport how far a chip on the shoulder and a point to prove can take individuals and a team' after we beat Munster. All of the guys who are regarded as squad filler proving a point. Makes sense, when Anscombe goes out and says we have no proper back-up to Paddy Jackson in an interview- how is James McKinney going to get confidence from that when he comes off the bench in a semi-final? Can't see Gregor Townsend or Mark McCall handling it that way.

It's all to the good if it motivates the guys on the outside to up their games but we have to treat the first team players by the same standards or it can turn into a bad thing. Is Payne being treated by the same standards? Well, he's never been as good at outside centre as fullback but it seems he gets to play in a BIG game there despite the availability of in-form players in that position, his own lack of game time there and the fact the entire back line will need to be re-jigged to accommodate him. Was that decision fair not just to Payne, but to the other centres we have at Ulster?

I might be wrong, I accept that, but I don't see the coaching staff we have as very good man-managers.

clivemcl wrote:

rodders wrote:I thought the ref didn't penalise Trimble - the penalty was for offside against someone else and he was playing advantage to Leinster? Maybe I'm getting mixed up.

The worst bit of refereeing for me was when Henry was penalised for a breakdown infringement which gives Leinster 3 points - the ref tells Best the Jacklers are getting an unfair advantage and to talk to his players. 5 minutes later Pienaar makes a break close to the Leinster line and gets penalised for hanging on when Leinster kill the ball.

I assumed the same when I was at the game Rodders, but watching it back, the commentators seemed to think it was Trimble's tackle that was penalised.

As I continue watching it back here, I've just seen Trimble taken out in the air of the second half restart kick, completely missed by the ref.    

Yeah it was for the tackle, you can hear the ref explaining that it was dangerous......or was it dangeroooos!!!
Utterly laughable penalty to give, I tell you at this rate we'll be watching professional tag rugby.

Notch wrote:Let me clarify. I don't think the back line had anything to do with it on the day. Luke Marshall wouldn't have added more guile to that midfield, Olding might have but he wasn't available most of the season and for this game... c'est la vie. Nothing anyone can do about that. Was actually very encouraged by how Gilroy played on Saturday, his best performance of the season.

I'm concerned about the impact this Payne move will have on our back line next season, hence my disquiet. I can't see it being good for dressing room unity either. I have my doubts over how Anscombe is handling the dressing room. You can see in Glasgow the players are willing to fight for each other and make sacrifices regardless of who is on the pitch and I wonder if we have that same culture in Ulster. Don't get me wrong, I think the majority of players have real pride in the shirt and pride in playing for Ulster but I don't think we have that same unity regardless of who plays. Seems to be a big divide between the first team and the second team- the coaches favourites and the outsiders. Was interested to see Paddy Wallace tweet 'Amazing in sport how far a chip on the shoulder and a point to prove can take individuals and a team' after we beat Munster. Makes sense, when Anscombe goes out and says we have no proper back-up to Paddy Jackson in an interview- how is James McKinney going to get confidence from that when he comes off the bench in a semi-final? Can't see Gregor Townsend or Mark McCall handling it that way.

Its worse than that Notch - when a player has signed elsewhere, and has effectively been told 'you don't cut the mustard at our club', why do you then go and give him such a big task which you clearly don't believe he is capable of. Pienaar must have been injured and his injury must have meant moving him to 10 wasn't an option.

This brings me back to squad depth. Its simply not good enough to have such little faith in your backup players that you force the first teamers to play when they shouldn't.

I pretty much feel like Pienaar lost us that game. (Not that he is to blame).

The fact that we have re-signed iHump shows that we know we are still too weak behind 1st XV, but its too late. Maybe more should have been done to keep him in the first place instead of trying sub standard to sub standard. Perhaps Ian was asking too much, or perhaps we need to stop paying so much to big names, and pay a little more to get good quality squad players.

Did someone say we are losing 14 players to retirement and transfer. How many coming in?

Herbst
Murphy
Van The Man
another forward?
iHumph
Ludik??

This is not good enough.

I'm fed up being the team that are world class (as long as everything goes perfectly). Because, thats not really world class. Thats just a fancy veneer. And its a mask that is destined to slip, numerous times in a season.

"I'm fed up being the team that are world class (as long as everything goes perfectly). Because, thats not really world class. Thats just a fancy veneer. And its a mask that is destined to slip, numerous times in a season."

This is the thing. Without injury and with a well drilled 1stXV who've had some gametime together we could leave anyone wimpering in our wake. The gap between the players who can collectively do this and those who cannot is immense. That gap needs to be narrower and have shirts fought for instead of a 1st XV that picks itself more often than not.
We can only hope lady luck saves us from the injuries we've had this season.

Speaking of injured, an word on 1F. Is he going to be about at all for us next season?

rodders wrote:I thought the ref didn't penalise Trimble - the penalty was for offside against someone else and he was playing advantage to Leinster? Maybe I'm getting mixed up.

The worst bit of refereeing for me was when Henry was penalised for a breakdown infringement which gives Leinster 3 points - the ref tells Best the Jacklers are getting an unfair advantage and to talk to his players. 5 minutes later Pienaar makes a break close to the Leinster line and gets penalised for hanging on when Leinster kill the ball.

It was for Trimbles tackle and was only given because Leinster thought they were in the blue of Chelsea and had a go at the ref for it then when it was given Heaslip started asking about a card only to be told it was the same as the tackle 5 mins earlier

He also penalised Ulster for tackling beyond the ruck and stopping Leinster competing when they weren't committing anyone to the ruck then ignored a Leinster player doing it in the build up to the try, not that it made a difference but some bloody consistency would be nice   

I've said it in the match thread, I just really wish games could be decided on skill and physicality, and not on dark arts or how much you can get away with.

Maybe its just my personality, and maybe i don't live in the real world, but even when Ulster players sneakily do things they shouldn't I find myself getting annoyed.

Some have said Ulster are too nice and need to learn the dark arts better. But this is the problem. Its a case of if you cant beat 'em, join 'em. And why? Because the masters of the dark arts get away with far far too much, and the punishments are too lenient.

All game long, leinster were competing at the break down whilst
a) not releasing after the tackle
b) not supporting their own weight
c) sometimes with knees on the ground!!!

It really is frustrating the hell out of me!!