Ulster 2013/2014

First topic message reminder :

Any reason why he didnt make an appearance for the Ravens?

Saw Murphy at Ravenhill recently. He was having some physio, not sure if it was because he's injured, or it was just routine stuff.

I have heard Paul Jackson is impressing during his short term Academy contract and has a good chance of getting a deal of some description for next season. I'd suspect that the 3rd hooker position is between the two of the realistically. However, maybe McCall may turn out to be a natural in the position, who knows.

Done some digging re hooker.

McCall has been turning out as LH for Hinch not hooker.
Infact the Ravers game is the only game I can find where he was hooker.

I therefore surmise that that was an one off caused by an emergency - late illness perhaps? - and that he is not considered for the position. Looks to me a lot of us have put 2+2 together and got 5.
Have to say that makes far more sense and makes me happier.

Jackson appears to have gone past Murphy in the pecking order

So next years front row appears to be shaping up as:

LH: Black, Murphy, Warwick, McCall
Hooker: Best, Herring, Jackson, Murphy
TH: Herbst, Lutton, Fitzpatrick, Ryan

Yes we have lost Afoa and Court but Ryan and McCall as 4th choice is a strength of depth we have never had

Disappointed we haven't seen more of young McCall then. Anytime I have seen him he looks decent. We are still lacking in a big signing with Herbst as big as is gets. I would like to see a big name just to get people's imagination and keep driving interest in the game from casual fans

If we get a big name it will be 2nd row not front row.
Have to say I agree with that - we need to develop Irish talent

McCall seems to have lost out to Warwick in the pecking order

I may be a bit late to this but I only saw it mentioned in the Indo this morning for the first time.

"Meanwhile, as first mentioned in these pages last month, there were further unconfirmed reports last night that Ulster utility back Jared Payne is being lined up for a move to Leinster as a replacement for the retiring Brian O'Driscoll."

That would be a right kick in the teeth for Ulster and I can't imagine it going down too well.

I could never see a situation where one of Munster's star players would be forced to move to Leinster to fill a gap.

Payne doesn't want to go and Ulster dont want him to go - I know that for a fact.
I have been told there is no strength in the rumour but it wont go away.

If it came to pass I would utterly disgusted.
These things go both ways - R. Kearney and McGrath please to cover our weaker spots.

Said previously that there's no smoke without fire and this has been on the cards for a while now.

Still hoping it won't happen though but if Payne wants to play 13 full time that might be the crux factor in the equation.

It would be an unprecedented step between two (fairly even) provinces and would have dire consequences for rugby north of the border if it came to pass. Speaking for myself I wouldn't give a fiddlers about Ireland if they started taking our best players and moving them south

Standulstermen wrote:It would be an unprecedented step between two (fairly even) provinces and would have dire consequences for rugby north of the border if it came to pass. Speaking for myself I wouldn't give a fiddlers about Ireland if they started taking our best players and moving them south

Your damn right. If it was a case of Payne choosing to go, thats one thing. But if I heard IRFU urged him, that would be me done with Ireland for good.

Have to agree if this comes to pass two fingers up at Dublin - the player himself doesn't want to go.

Having said that I still strongly believe it is tripe/lazy journalism

MunsterMac wrote:I may be a bit late to this but I only saw it mentioned in the Indo this morning for the first time.

"Meanwhile, as first mentioned in these pages last month, there were further unconfirmed reports last night that Ulster utility back Jared Payne is being lined up for a move to Leinster as a replacement for the retiring Brian O'Driscoll."

That would be a right kick in the teeth for Ulster and I can't imagine it going down too well.

I could never see a situation where one of Munster's star players would be forced to move to Leinster to fill a gap.

Can you provide a link cant find it

It's in the article about Henshaw potentially moving Geoff or rather the decision being schmidts

My instinct tells me it's like Geoff says, lazy journalism. Perhaps from a journalist who trawls the forums for rumours.
It would cause so much animosity that I don't believe it can happen. If it does I'm with you guys and the national team can take a running jump, a bit like Alex Goode.

Got it - unconfirmed reports i.e. unsubstantiated rumour

Payne is hardly likely to say he is considering going whilst he is at Ulster. This stuff goes on all the time it just isn't public knowledge for obvious reasons.

The IRFU will obviously have their preference but the decision will be the players. If he goes Ulster will get a sweetener from the IRFU in the form of support for a marquee signing.

Payne was shocked and very pleasantly surprised how much support he got from Ulster when he has his Achilles injury a couple of year back.
He vowed at the time he would play for Ulster as long as they wanted him.
I have no reason to doubt his word.
He is very settled here.

If he goes it will be because his arm has been twisted

Of course his arm is twisted he's been told by Schmidt and O'Driscoll that he's a front runner to play 13 for Ireland at the RWC if he wants to and if he's playing regularly there.

I think if Ulster were prepared to play him at 13 there would be no dilemma.

Is there a dilemma? Other than internet rumours there is nothing to substantiate this.

I think Jen would be able to verify that this is true as the leak came from Leinster.

But I have heard from a reliable source that players frequently discusses switching between provinces and that they have agreements not to block moves between each other.

The scrum half being rumoured is James Hart by the way - currently at Grenoble

Kirchener to Ulster if Payne goes south?..... get down to Paddy power.....

Never heard anything of the sort in truth Rodders and it strikes me this is a journo reading an Internet forum for column inches

Geoff
I saw on the uafc they were talking about that but to be honest it's so full of sh1t that I don't believe anything from there anymore

Nothing of what sort Stand?

That provinces don't facilitate moves between each other?

I can tell you 100% that they do and that the coaches, backroom staff, medical teams share information with each other and work together as part of the process. The policy is to make moves between provinces as easy as possible but if they leave Ireland its a different story.

geoff998rugby wrote:The scrum half being rumoured is James Hart by the way - currently at Grenoble

That'd be an awesome signing.

Well I will take your word for it Rodders but I've never heard anything remotely like that. Strikes me as odd given we have our own source here that says we are frequently knocked back by players from the south

I would be fairly gutted if they tried to move Payne, but if Payne doesn't want to go he won't go. Same as with Henshaw. They can't force him to leave.

Yes the players don't want to move - what I mean is if the IRFU and player agree a move the provinces work together and share info to facilitate. They don't bid against each other or block moves, or withhold medical, statistical information around the player which they do if a player leaves IRFU jurisdiction

Ulster XV and replacements to face Connacht, RaboDirect PRO12 Ravenhill, Friday 11th April (kick off 19:05) (15-9): R Andrew, A Trimble, T Bowe, L Marshall, C Gilroy, P Jackson, P Marshall; (1-8): A Warwick, R Herring, R Lutton, J Muller (Captain), I Henderson, R Diack, C Henry, N Williams; Replacements (16-23): N Annett, T Court, A Macklin, L Stevenson, S Doyle, M Heaney, J McKinney, S McCloskey.


Team named. Cave and ferris rested   . Connacht could have a right go at our front row. We need to be on the money here. We have one eye on Glasgow looking at that selection

The point is no move will happen without Payne's consent - Ulster are already bound by gentleman's agreement/IRFU policy to support any move between the two provinces.

Leinster and Ulster won't be working against each other here but working to facilitate what the player and IRFU want.

Standulstermen wrote:Never heard anything of the sort in truth Rodders and it strikes me this is a journo reading an Internet forum for column inches

Geoff
I saw on the uafc they were talking about that but to be honest it's so full of sh1t that I don't believe anything from there anymore

Agreed that is why I have said nothing till now - got a independent rumour on it first
My take is its a punt that they don't expect to come off but there I no harm in trying

Surprised that Trimble starts tomorrow night, have started a match thread for discussion of the game;

https://www.606v2.com/t53137-ulster-vs-connacht

geoff998rugby wrote:My take is its a punt that they don't expect to come off but there I no harm in trying

That's what I think but I don't believe the rumour is without substance - as with Bowe who was very close to joining Munster at one point - however it won't happen without Payne's consent so he either wants to stay or thank you and goodbye. Everyone is replaceable so I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

I do think though that the policy is moving towards players moving between provinces to plug gaps rather than recruiting from overseas to cut down on NIEs and keep the provincial budget down - not sure where I heard that - maybe you Geoff?

Rodders the bit about cutting the number of Irish qualified from 5 to 4 you heard from me.
It was in response to the Senior Provinces having a united front about refusing the 1 player in Ireland for each position and no renewed contracts idea from IRFU.

It seemed to be an, unwritten, aspiration.
I have heard about the idea of moving players around Provinces but it simply doesn't work as far as Ulster are concerned because as we know top flight Leinster and Munster players are not interested in coming north.

If they were, and/or it was enforceable, players like McGrath and Foley for example would be in an Ulster shirt next year.
Hence we are digging our heals in at a policy that will be one way traffic with Ulster losing quality players and getting very little in return

I think if the IRFU do this moving players around, they need to make sure the player is replaced by another of equal quality to cover the same position.

For instance if Jared Payne moves to Leinster we get Zane Kirchener or Rob Kearney. I don't think either of those guys want to move to Ulster any more than Payne wants to move to Leinster.

geoff998rugby wrote:Hence we are digging our heals in at a policy that will be one way traffic with Ulster losing quality players and getting very little in return

Ulster support the policy Geoff - that's how O'Connor and Faloon went to Connacht - I agree about the one way traffic concern but that's about player choice. But then Bowe chose Ulster over Munster (albeit he's an Ulster man).

I absolutely do not want Payne to go but if he does good luck to him, I only want 100% committed players.

Maybe we'll get the IRFU to fork out for La Roux if he does go.....

I have just realised something Zane Kitchener has played at 10 as well as 15

Also some rumours of Ulster getting a utility back (remember we only pulled out of a Robinson deal because of injury concerns)

Swap with Payne - is that what IRFU are trying to negotiate ?????
Doesn't make the HC side.

Pure speculation on my part but it does fit some of the goings on.

Mentioned Kirchner above - that is a stab in the dark though but to me would seem logical considering he's not getting much game time at Leinster and we need a fullback to replace Payne - if he was to go..... stranger things have happened....

rodders wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Hence we are digging our heals in at a policy that will be one way traffic with Ulster losing quality players and getting very little in return

Ulster support the policy Geoff - that's how O'Connor and Faloon went to Connacht - I agree about the one way traffic concern but that's about player choice. But then Bowe chose Ulster over Munster (albeit he's an Ulster man).

The only players we have let go to Connaught are ones we do not think are good enough.

Boss is probably the only first teamer who has moved in or out of Ulster in recent years between us and another province and we know that was because he was told he would be 2nd choice at Ulster.

A policy where players can say 'no I am not going north' but players are forced south by IRFU should not be acceptable to Ulster

geoff998rugby wrote:
A policy where players can say 'no I am not going north' but players are forced south by IRFU should not be acceptable to Ulster

Players are not forced anywhere.

Well Payne doesn't want to go to Leinster but if a gun is held to his head whats that?

'Play 13 for Leinster or your chance of playing for Ireland are severely compromised' may not be forced but it is I well on the way.

Theres no sense in us being lowed an NIQ to compensate for the excellent scouting of, and developing of and paying for a player who is now soon to be a key part of the national team.

How does getting an NIQ for probably only a few years compensate for the snatching of someone we have put time and effort into.

A gun is not to his head - if he's told he needs to play 13 to make the Irish side and that suits Leinster and not Ulster then the player has a choice to make.

It's a professional game Geoff, a player has to do what's best for them.

Lets not forget about Cave, Marshall and Olding here because if the alternative is one of those 3 get squeezed out due to IRFU pressure to play Payne at centre then that's not ideal either.

clivemcl wrote:
How does getting an NIQ for probably only a few years compensate for the snatching of someone we have put time and effort into.

Come off it Clive Payne was 26 when he came, we didn't teach him to play rugby. Even with the season he was out injured we've more than got our moneys worth from him.

There's no snatching here - the money is the same - the choice is the player's.

rodders wrote:Mentioned Kirchner above - that is a stab in the dark though but to me would seem logical considering he's not getting much game time at Leinster and we need a fullback to replace Payne - if he was to go.....  stranger things have happened....

But this thing with this is if Payne is moved and Ulster don't get a replacement of similar quality, the reaction will justifiably be furious.

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:Mentioned Kirchner above - that is a stab in the dark though but to me would seem logical considering he's not getting much game time at Leinster and we need a fullback to replace Payne - if he was to go.....  stranger things have happened....

But this thing with this is if Payne is moved and Ulster don't get a replacement of similar quality, the reaction will justifiably be furious.

Of course. IF he goes Ulster will get something in return.....hmm here's a though .... if Payne goes South does Henshaw come North??

Henshaw for Payne wouldn't be a fair trade. We would be getting the bum end of the deal. Henshaw for Darren Cave would be more realistic.

The only players already in Ireland that would be a fair trade for Ulster would be- Payne for Simon Zebo, Payne for Rob Kearney. Like for like those guys are similar quality. Other options like Kirchener and Henshaw are not.

If we lost Payne and gained Henshaw I would be furious. With Eoin Griffin leaving Henshaw is likely to play 13 for Connacht so he should stay exactly where he is. This meddling can only lead to resentment. The IRFU should stay out. Ulster have never got one of Munsters best players or Leinsters best players when we have had positions we are weak in, so the IRFU stepping in to poach a centre for Leinster off another province would leave a bitter taste in the mouth. It's for Ireland yes, but the main beneficiary would be Leinster and the main loser would be Ulster. It will cause the IRFU to be seen as favouring one province over the other.

Payne wouldn't be on the radar of the national side if it wasn't for David Humphreys managing to get him to sign for Ulster. It's our Director of Rugby the IRFU have to thank for him being available to Ireland. Leaving him where he is would be a good way of repaying us!

Kirchner, Henshaw whatever. If Payne leaves I will be fuming. Was it not Ulsters contacts and scouting work that led to him coming over here. I still don't see it. Leinster have NIQ spots to burn. Let them go and scout their own. We have produced a smashing 13 in Cave with four other options in Marshall, Olding, Bowe and Payne that can slot in. If the irfu want to see one specifically at 13 then we can work around that but under no circumstances should we be inconvenienced for another province. Nor should another province be inconvenienced for us

Totally agree Stand.

The national team and the provinces have to work together, there has to be give and take on both sides. Encouraging a provinces best player to leave is all take, no give.

As I said this would create no little friction between Ulster and IRFU - not good.

geoff998rugby wrote:As I said this would create no little friction between Ulster and IRFU - not good.

It would also alienate the fanbase from their 2nd biggest province