The New European Cup Thread (Merged)

First topic message reminder :

Can anyone provide an update on what is going to actually happen from next season?

A factual update would be welcome. As brief as possible.

Opinionated views not so.

Maybe, dubbya.
Ask me if I care more about the Tigers than truly competitive sport.

England first. Then European competition. Then the Jeff.

I'm only a Tigers fan by accident of birth, so living with the Tigers failing to get in the Euros would not be a great problem for me to struggle with.

And As,

Tony Rowe wrote:When can we win the Heineken Cup? Within the next five years, there’s a prediction.

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Exeter-Chiefs-target-success-LV-Cup-win/story-20817446-detail/story.html#ixzz2wbpg4f6c

Maybe he knows more than the rest of us do. It being sponsored by Heineken?

But where's the (any) quote that officially removes any English LV= Cup winner from any  Euro cup link?
I haven't seen one.

Duplicity is a watchword so far as I have heard from PRL CEOs over the years.
To my cynical ears anyway.

According to the French press

Heineken, Fedex, Renault, Guinness and Volkswagen

all being lined up as sponsors

geoff998rugby wrote:According to the French press

Heineken, Fedex, Renault, Guinness and Volkswagen

all being lined up as sponsors

So in France (where they won't mention Heineken or Guinness), it will be known as the Alcoholics Anonymous Cup?

Presumably "Le Coupe Renault et absolutement pas be beire"!

SecretFly wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:According to the French press

Heineken, Fedex, Renault, Guinness and Volkswagen

all being lined up as sponsors

So in France (where they won't mention Heineken or Guinness), it will be known as the Alcoholics Anonymous Cup?

I don't think they are going to go with a title sponsor.

The MoneyBucks Cup will suffice.  
Prepare for team kits to resemble Formula One drivers...with mandatory heavily sponsored baseball caps worn too for after game comments.

It will be like seeing the Irish boys all over again, when they went through a phase of drinking their favourite isotonic sports drinks just exactly when the cameras started rolling for the interviews.

Renault sponsorship for matches involving sides with VW on their shirts might be interesting.  

whocares wrote:apparently the "European Rugby Champion cup" would have 4 pool of 5 each. the 20th team wwould be the winner of the T14 7th vs AP 7th to be played on neutral ground on the 17-18 may weekend.

the Challenge cup would be 20 teams as well with 18 teams from the P12/T14/AP and 2 teams from a FIRA competition organised in september (8 teams from russia, georgia, spain, portugal , Romania etc).

sorry if am duplicating info already discussed in another european club rugby thread...

Interesting. Thanks, whocares.

geoff998rugby wrote:According to the French press

Heineken, Fedex, Renault, Guinness and Volkswagen

all being lined up as sponsors

I'd be surprised if they all signed up. There are 2 glaring conflicts of market in that list.
I'd imagine it will one of Heineken and Guinness and one of Renault and VW.

UEFA trys to keep it's sponsorship's to 1 per commercial sector, although there is some crossover between Mastercard and UniCredit I suppose but they are not direct rivals.

andyi wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:According to the French press

Heineken, Fedex, Renault, Guinness and Volkswagen

all being lined up as sponsors

I'd be surprised if they all signed up. There are 2 glaring conflicts of market in that list.
I'd imagine it will one of Heineken and Guinness and one of Renault and VW.

UEFA trys to keep it's sponsorship's to 1 per commercial sector, although there is some crossover between Mastercard and UniCredit I suppose but they are not direct rivals.

I agree but I think none have been signed yet, they just have been approached so far. Might be only one drink and car manufacturer in the end but the idea is to get 5-6 main sponsors with no naming of the competition

whocares wrote:

andyi wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:According to the French press

Heineken, Fedex, Renault, Guinness and Volkswagen

all being lined up as sponsors

I'd be surprised if they all signed up. There are 2 glaring conflicts of market in that list.
I'd imagine it will one of Heineken and Guinness and one of Renault and VW.

UEFA trys to keep it's sponsorship's to 1 per commercial sector, although there is some crossover between Mastercard and UniCredit I suppose but they are not direct rivals.

I agree but I think none have been signed yet, they just have been approached so far. Might be only one drink and car manufacturer in the end but the idea is to get 5-6 main sponsors with no naming of the competition

Yeah, they are are trying to copy UEFA's model for the Champions and Europa Leagues.

If anyone interested here's what ERC were getting for the existing competitions:

Heineken (Title sponsor of Tier1 comp)           £2.97m/yr ($4.5m/yr @ 29/01/09)
Fed-Ex  (Secondary sponsor of Tier1 comp)    £0.76m/yr ($1.25m/yr  @ 19/10/09)
Amlin (title sponsor of Tier2 comp)                £1.09m/yr ($1.5m/yr  @ 23/09/09)

So approx around £4.75M a year across both competitions.

Let's see what the new competitions bring in?

andyi wrote:
Let's see what the new competitions bring in?

It's a massive worry for me, that these competitions could be too successful leading to raises in salary caps etc. and further unbalancing the game worldwide. If an influx of money into European club rugby leads to an influx of talent from the SH it will damage the game, it will damage international rugby, it will be more of a bad thing than a good thing. I can't see the people who have masterminded the current mess using that money responsibly i.e. sticking to current salary caps, not having more than a handful of foreign players in each squad etc. Look at Toulon for goodness sake!

Of course they're not going to stick to salary caps.  That's exactly what all this has been about... clubs controlling their own destiny and creating rules accordingly, without the contraints placed on them by Unions (ain't it the RFU that lay down the rules on AP salary caps at present?).  
There is no way English clubs are going to tolerate the growth and growth of French rugby and watch it attract all best players (global and from Europe itself) without following the French blueprint of a total relaxation of capping principles.

And when the salary caps go, then it's ruthless hunting season for best players from elsewhere too...namely even more Pro12 players being lured to England and France. And a definite 'scouting' feeding party decending on Pro12 academies and offering top team salaries to bit part future potential players.  

But the Pro12 idiots are all shivering with delight that they've 'saved' their bacon and they'll be getting more bucks over the next few seasons.  Ah, that's great.  More money!!

- less influence, less of their best players staying at home, more Pro12 based young fans wearing the shirts of their favourite big hard-hitting Euro sides inot the future........... Toulon, Clermont, Saracens, Saints, Leicester etc, etc.

"Peace in Our Time" ...and we all know how well that went

Secret
Take your blinkers off. It is the PRL that instigated & control the salary cap,they also equalize the Union player payments so all clubs get roughly the same payment regardless off how many players they have in the EPS. The PRL realise that you need a competitive league so do the best to equal out the payments to clubs.

It think the RFU have said they have to have the salary cap but the PRL or PGB (combination of PRL, RFU and Players Association) set the cap. It's currently tied to the central earnings so if it goes up the cap will go up, but the algorithm isn't known.

The cap has already gone up for next year based on this competition. It went up £500k. So that's one more very expensive player or just more to try and keep the best English players. It won't go up again unless the central funding goes up.

broadlandboy wrote:Secret
Take your blinkers off. It is the PRL that instigated & control the salary cap,they also equalize the Union player payments so all clubs get roughly the same payment regardless off how many players they have in the EPS. The PRL realise that you need a competitive league so do the best to equal out the payments to clubs.

Shame that line of thinking doesn't extend to Europe

But it does with each team getting roughly equal payment for participation in Europe.

broadlandboy wrote:Secret
Take your blinkers off. It is the PRL that instigated & control the salary cap,they also equalize the Union player payments so all clubs get roughly the same payment regardless off how many players they have in the EPS. The PRL realise that you need a competitive league so do the best to equal out the payments to clubs.

Salary caps will go.

Afterall, Top14 aren't going to be going backwards to please the PRL...and therefore the PRL will be driven forward by the commerical pressures that initally had them call the Pro12 structure 'unfair'.

If they want to compete with Top14 - and they do...they'll end salary caps. 'You can't stop progress', isn't that the blurb some more vocal Premiership club owners have been using?

broadlandboy wrote:But it does with each team getting roughly equal payment for participation in Europe.

Unfortunately that won't ensure a sensible level of competition across Europe

SecretFly wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:Secret
Take your blinkers off. It is the PRL that instigated & control the salary cap,they also equalize the Union player payments so all clubs get roughly the same payment regardless off how many players they have in the EPS. The PRL realise that you need a competitive league so do the best to equal out the payments to clubs.

Salary caps will go.

Afterall, Top14 aren't going to be going backwards to please the PRL...and therefore the PRL will be driven forward by the commerical pressures that initally had them call the Pro12 structure 'unfair'.

If they want to compete with Top14 - and they do...they'll end salary caps.  'You can't stop progress', isn't that the blurb some more vocal Premiership club owners have been using?

They are vocal, they are the ones that have been calling for an end to the salary cap for years. They same ones that have been rejected because they're in the minority. The vast majority of the clubs want the salary cap, they think it's sensible and good for the game. The salary caps ARNE'T going.

The salary caps ARE going

I have my house on it............. maybe not next year or the next...but the moans will begin again soon enough and this time the declared devil will be the free-roaming French wallets picking up best world players and ramming home the advantage against bargain basement English clubs in Europe.

It's the new pressure valve that will eventually blow.  Time is all you need and the pressure is already growing as we speak.

PRL will eventually divide itself into PRL Premium (representing the interests of the habitual top five or so) and PRL RyanAir for the budget traveller at the lower end of APs

But there is very little pressure from the clubs to remove the cap. It's only Bath and Saracens that have called to remove it. Everyone else wants it.

Or are you being clever with your words? "Maybe not next year or the next..." When the English Premiership ceases to exist it's cap will also go, I'll give that. Do you mean within 5 years? 10? 100?

The French have a salary cap it is just very big compared to the rest but with their media deals seems more affordable. I can see the PRL cap rising with the increased money from Europe but I can't see it disappearing.

You can't seriously think that Toulon are operating under a salary cap.

HammerofThunor wrote:But there is very little pressure from the clubs to remove the cap. It's only Bath and Saracens that have called to remove it. Everyone else wants it.

Or are you being clever with your words? "Maybe not next year or the next..." When the English Premiership ceases to exist it's cap will also go, I'll give that.  Do you mean within 5 years? 10? 100?

Europe is the new toy, Hammer. AP is now small change to the clubs that are most ambitious about the European element. This is just the beginning...and most AP sides that are happy with salary caps won't have a argument here or there in the competitiveness needed to compete in Europe. The big boys will dictate the terms needed to compete at the highest level in Europe and that will be an attack on the principle of salary caps...as they'll quite rightly argue that the cap is a hand tied behind their back.

So no...much sooner than 10 years.

Secretfly Why would anyone want an association with Ryanair? Also I disagree.

Look at Gloucester - next season should be more competitive with some high profile frontrowers signed.

Sale have also made some decent acquisitions. London Irish have signed some interesting players.

The transfer of players is not over yet either.

I think the salary cap could be raised but I don't think it will ever be entirely lifted.

Mostly dependent on the French.

I do agree though. It's going to be tough for the Pro12 to protect their players. Especially if Toulon for example continue to have more foreigners than Frenchman in their starting XV.

broadlandboy wrote:The French have a salary cap it is just very big compared to the rest but with their media deals seems more affordable. I can see the PRL cap rising with the increased money from Europe but I can't see it disappearing.

I knew that would hit me eventually.  Yes, the notional salary cap that the French already have.

Well, there you have it - the key for the top AP sides to open the door with.  "Well at least let us stretch the salary cap to the French levels."

In that scenario, you'll get to claim to be right in that the salary caps didn't disappear, just got a whole lot bigger and have drifted away from the little peoples in AP itself.  
And I'll also claim to be right in saying that the notional salary caps of France have won out in the end and from henceforth some five or six massive 'European' clubs will emerge to do the business end of Championship winning year in and out...as the little peoples are happy with their promotion/relegation fights in the oil sump.

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:But there is very little pressure from the clubs to remove the cap. It's only Bath and Saracens that have called to remove it. Everyone else wants it.

Or are you being clever with your words? "Maybe not next year or the next..." When the English Premiership ceases to exist it's cap will also go, I'll give that.  Do you mean within 5 years? 10? 100?

Europe is the new toy, Hammer.  AP is now small change to the clubs that are most ambitious about the European element.  This is just the beginning...and most AP sides that are happy with salary caps won't have a argument here or there in the competitiveness needed to compete in Europe.  The big boys will dictate the terms needed to compete at the highest level in Europe and that will be an attack on the principle of salary caps...as they'll quite rightly argue that the cap is a hand tied behind their back.

So no...much sooner than 10 years.

Well the clubs that want the cap include Saints and Tigers. Who exactly is putting this pressure on? Who exactly has the money to expand the cap to the French levels? It's possible with Irish's new owners they may push to boat out, but again there are only two calling for it because there are only two that could afford it (or want to afford it). And that's because they're already pumping millions in every year. Most of the others put in between £0-2M. You think they're suddenlt going to find an extra £10M to waste?

Every plan has sections that come now and sections slotted in for later.

For now, the fight was to gain more control of the European contest from Unions so that rules and regulations could be 'self' controlled.  Big English clubs could hardly have found the allies they needed for that push had they been saying things about ending salary caps too.

War doesn't work that way.  First you have your allies to get you through one campaign.  Then you turn on those allies and declare war on them too.  Try finding that ritual - it's a trick with a long history of proof backing it up.

I remember over and over asking the question when the PRL were moaning about the Pro12 being SO unfair to the others who compete in Europe.  I asked over and over, 'why aren't the PRL moaning about the French very generous capping system that allows them to have Harlem Globetrotter sides?'  I said if the PRL are so annoyed about the principle of fairness - why not add the French to the mix and settle the unfairness there too whilst they're trying to 'help' Europe become more balanced.

I remember the replies too.................. either stoney silence or actually a repeat of my theory about first allies then enemies.  It was suggested that the PRL first need the French as allies against the Pro12.  If they moaned about salary caps, they'd lose an ally.

They did lose an ally and, for a brief moment in time, the French were public enemy Number 1 again - with even the hysterically funny situation that the Pro12ers were being berated for supporting the French against the English!

And around we go.  Salary caps weren't part of the first battle.  They will be central to new battles.  It's a long range planning war, this European Rugby moneywagon.

"Try finding that ritual - it's a trick with a long history of proof backing it up."

Proof of what? If you want to fight two fronts do it one at a time or that people always turn on their allies?

As for using to get a bigger cap...who are they convincing? Right you 10 teams who want to keep the cap. Listen, the French are better than us because they have more money. If you allow us to spend what we like then we'll buy up all you're best players and then we'll be able to compete with them. Granted you lot wouldn't have a chance against us in the league but we'll do a new cup for 3rd place that you can fight over."

They way to get a bigger cap is to make more money for the whole league. That's the only way the cap will increase. That means making as many games as possible as watchable to increase attendance, TV and sponsorship.

Unless you can actually come up with an actual mechanism for Wray to convince everyone else scrap the cap.

I'm not presenting you with the business dynamics, Hammer.  
I'm saying Wray and people like him will approach it again.... because Europe is still theoretically a very unfair playing field!  If the arguments about fairness got them this far..... seems they got the entirety of virtually everything they wanted!.......... then it'll be a good start off point again.

You talk about the game itself needing to generate the funding required to raise a salary cap?

Why?  The whole argument again from many English people during the debates was that English clubs were running at losses...and that it was only down to the emotional largesse of sympathetic owners who loved rugby that was keeping things alive as they invested their own personal wealth into those clubs.

So already the AP is running counter clockwise to good business practices according to some .... and.... getting away with it now for quite a number of years.

Add to that the realisation that Top14 is NOT generating the massive budgets of those clubs but rather the bottomless pockets of some super-rich sugar daddies.  No, English rugby can very much operate on the same principles as Top14.  

And that pressure WILL grow

But they're approaching all the time. and they keep getting rejected by the PRL.

It's down to 'generally' fans of the club putting money in. Some of whom aren't at the cap now so why would they want to put signifacntly more money in? Then you have 4 clubs who run at a profit now and only Gloucester have someone who could fill the void.

You seem to be saying (please correct if wrong) "Well these owners are already covering £1M loses a year so they would be fine covering £11M loses a year". The PRL control the cap. The PRL have given no signs that they would want to increase the cap. Not sure exactly how many votes are needed to increase the cap but if 10 of the clubs get new owners and Tigers and Exeter sell out to an owner and all these owners are Russian billionaires...then maybe the cap with be effectively removed (although I don't think the RFU wouldn't allow it even then).

But I can't see that happening, certainly not in 10 years.

As hammerofthunor says Nigel Wray and Bruce Craig are on their own in wanting an increase in the salary cap. Secretfly where do you see those two getting support from? As it stands it's 2 out of 12.

Secretfly I have complained about the French having much higher salary cap than the English clubs. Something that Wray has mentioned a few times too.

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/14861/axe-cap-or-risk-losing-out-on-tv-bonanza-says-nigel-wray/

I don't want the salary cap abolished but I do want us to be on a more level playing field with the French. Ideally a fixed cap for English,French and Pro12 would be great - something like £8m.

My problems with the Pro12 were the lack of qualification into the HC. That's now look to be fixed. Now it means that the English can focus on trying to bring France into line.

It would be dangerous for all if the French continue to grow and grow, raising the cap - putting more pressure on the English clubs to raise theirs.

They (the rebel owners who want caps ended) will finally get the support from the PRL itself, as they'll quite clearly lay it on the line that English rugby continuing to be second dog to French Top14 in Europe is not serving the interests of growth of the domestic game.

They'll simply and clinically keep saying it until it gets listened to because it will be the truth.  And they'll say that sides that can't compete must be sacrificed to the greater good of putting English rugby centrally at the top of club rugby in Europe.

And PRL, in a strictly European based economic reality, will simply have to agree with them eventually.

So...it's either we all rein in the Top14 overspend by calling it what it is...'unfair' (always my prefered approach but least likely to succeed) or PRL will eventually chase after Top14.

Whatever the solution, there is much too much English pride at stake to simply be left behind by the French.

Secretfly I agree. The only way for it to benefit all is to rein in the Top 14.

As you say us English will not want to play second fiddle to the French.

For compromise I would happily restrict the amount of foreigners in the AP to try and reduce the talent drain from the Pro12.

It's just you Pro12 fans have always seen the English as the most dangerous to rugby union when it's the French who are more so. Our current salary cap is closer to those of the Pro12.

beshocked wrote:Secretfly I agree. The only way for it to benefit all is to rein in the Top 14.

As you say us English will not want to play second fiddle to the French.

For compromise I would happily restrict the amount of foreigners in the AP to try and reduce the talent drain from the Pro12.

It's just you Pro12 fans have always seen the English as the most dangerous to rugby union when it's the French who are more so. Our current salary cap is closer to those of the Pro12.

Its hilarious watching the realisation of the decline of european rugby as we know it, that many of us have been warning about, slowly start to drip into the psyche of english posters on here. For better or worse the unions are the only way to stop the development of 5-6 european super-clubs that will win everything forever more. I mean when Irish provinces decline because our population can't support 8,9,20,50M salary caps, us Irish will be saddened (some of us sickened)... but when clubs like Bath become akin to Leeds in football.. then maybe english fans will realise their pact with the devil wasn't all good.

beshocked wrote:Secretfly I agree. The only way for it to benefit all is to rein in the Top 14.

As you say us English will not want to play second fiddle to the French.

For compromise I would happily restrict the amount of foreigners in the AP to try and reduce the talent drain from the Pro12.

It's just you Pro12 fans have always seen the English as the most dangerous to rugby union when it's the French who are more so. Our current salary cap is closer to those of the Pro12.

Decent point, well made, beshocked. But why didn't the PRL try to get Pro12 onboard as allies before they tried to get Top14 onboard as allies against the Pro12? Why didn't they trust the more natural links of the 'Home' nations and bring a concerted effort against the French to at least make them compromise on the salary budgets they bring to the European competition?

They have a right to run their domestic competition as they like and budget it accordingly but pressure should have come on them to agree to a capping system for European competition. In that scenario, they'd have to decide on European squads that came in under an agreed budget.

wolfball, remind again who is dominating in the current set up? Isn't it the Irish? Wasn't all this because the Irish are the super-awesomist of all? So the union system seems to be heading that way already doesn't it. Where as the PRL, which deliberately holds the money bags clubs in check and spending at levels that aren't ridiculous compared with those not with wealthy sugar daddies Wee weeing away money.

Again Fly, you say those in favour of dropping the cap will go on and on until it happens. But what are they saying? At the moment it's "allow me to spend loads more money to buy up your players and compete with the French". You think that would convince if said enough times? I don't. Or is it "go on, you know you've got that £6M floating about doing nothing, chnage the rules so you have to put that in every year for the forseable future".

The cap is (and should remain) based on the base finances of all the teams. Those with good attendences, club sponsorship or sugar-daddies can afford to hit the top of it but the gap isn't too big for those below. That is what the clubs want and I can't see it changing.

HammerofThunor wrote:
The cap is (and should remain) based on the base finances of all the teams. Those with good attendences, club sponsorship or sugar-daddies can afford to hit the top of it but the gap isn't too big for those below. That is what the clubs want and I can't see it changing.

good point HT and this applies perfectly to the T14 as well hence the threats of Toulon president to sue the LNR earlier this season for restraint of trade (one of his many comedy moments...today he's threatening to sue the FFR for having extended the suspension of laporte).

HammerofThunor wrote:
The cap is (and should remain) based on the base finances of all the teams. Those with good attendences, club sponsorship or sugar-daddies can afford to hit the top of it but the gap isn't too big for those below. That is what the clubs want and I can't see it changing.

You keep making your point yes Hammer...but it keeps ignoring the point that the sides most happy with caps won't be the sides remotely involved in top level European contest.
And therefore, those lesser sides will not have much to argue with when the more potent AP sides say to PRL that they are being held back in Europe by being contained by AP caps.  

Either the PRL as a whole want an imprint on Premium level European rugby that has meaning, and will benefit all AP sides in a marketing sense - or the PRL will remain satisfied that participating alone is sufficient enough, and that English sides in the highest levels at Europe should be chained to their AP caps even when those caps are keeping English sides from being as competitive as they could be.

You talk about PRL AP sides being content.  The ones that will compete at the highest level of any new European competition (and there'll again be six of them each year) they won't remain content.  They won't remain content.

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:
The cap is (and should remain) based on the base finances of all the teams. Those with good attendences, club sponsorship or sugar-daddies can afford to hit the top of it but the gap isn't too big for those below. That is what the clubs want and I can't see it changing.

You keep making your point yes Hammer...but it keeps ignoring the point that the sides most happy with caps won't be the sides remotely involved in top level European contest.
And therefore, those lesser sides will not have much to argue with when the more potent AP sides say to PRL that they are being held back in Europe by being contained by AP caps.  

Either the PRL as a whole want an imprint on Premium level European rugby that has meaning, and will benefit all AP sides in a marketing sense - or the PRL will remain satisfied that participating alone is sufficient enough, and that English sides in the highest levels at Europe should be chained to their AP caps even when those caps are keeping English sides from being as competitive as they could be.

You talk about PRL AP sides being content.  The ones that will compete at the highest level of any new European competition (and there'll again be six of them each year) they won't remain content.  They won't remain content.

All this assumes that Euro prominence is universally accepted as "the greater good" for English rugby - it isn't. Why would the owners of, say, Newcastle and Worcester, or the members of Leicester and Exeter, vote themselves into relative obscurity just so the likes of Saracens and Bath can compete with Toulon and Toulouse, or Oyannax and Lyon.

Dubbleyew...you ignore the totality of the past six or seven months.

Europe is the future.  AP is one of the 'lesser' leagues that the big five or six 'European' sides will practice in.

If you don't believe that's the overall plan then I'm afraid to say that's naive thinking to feel the big sides feel there is enough glory in either Top14, AP or Pro12.  There isn't.

The last however many months of bitter infighting is an expression of how seriously these sides are planning their future.... and their future is not going to be contained by Domestic League borders if they have anything to do with it.

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:
The cap is (and should remain) based on the base finances of all the teams. Those with good attendences, club sponsorship or sugar-daddies can afford to hit the top of it but the gap isn't too big for those below. That is what the clubs want and I can't see it changing.

You keep making your point yes Hammer...but it keeps ignoring the point that the sides most happy with caps won't be the sides remotely involved in top level European contest.
And therefore, those lesser sides will not have much to argue with when the more potent AP sides say to PRL that they are being held back in Europe by being contained by AP caps.  

Either the PRL as a whole want an imprint on Premium level European rugby that has meaning, and will benefit all AP sides in a marketing sense - or the PRL will remain satisfied that participating alone is sufficient enough, and that English sides in the highest levels at Europe should be chained to their AP caps even when those caps are keeping English sides from being as competitive as they could be.

You talk about PRL AP sides being content.  The ones that will compete at the highest level of any new European competition (and there'll again be six of them each year) they won't remain content.  They won't remain content.

But you are wrong. There are only 2 sides not happy with the cap. Bath and Saracens. Only one of those was in the top tier of Europe this year and both will be there next year. So that 33% of the Etop English teams. Tigers and Saints, two others at the top of English rugby definately do NOT want rid of the cap and given their whole structure, it's highly unlikely that will change. All the others are content. So yes, most sides happy with the cap won't be in the top tier of Europe. But you seem to be ignoring that most of the sides in the top tier of Europe are happy with the cap as well. You seem to have created this idea that all the top teams are straining against the cap and desperate spent all this cash they have floating around. There are two teams in that situation, that's it. And even if all 6 of the top English sides all wanted to remove the cap (which they don't) they can't without the agreement of the others (and probably the RFU). In fact in 2016 the Championship clubs are being brought on board and will probably get a voice on the PGB making it even less likely.

Clearly you've made you mind up based on the fact you know it will happen. So not much point carrying it on. Agree to disagree? I'll put you up when you lose your house as well if you want (for a small fee). I do have cats though.

SecretFly wrote:Dubbleyew...you ignore the totality of the past six or seven months.

Europe is the future.  AP is one of the 'lesser' leagues that the big five or six 'European' sides will practice in.

If you don't believe that's the overall plan then I'm afraid to say that's naive thinking to feel the big sides feel there is enough glory in either Top14, AP or Pro12.  There isn't.

The last however many months of bitter infighting is an expression of how seriously these sides are planning their future.... and their future is not going to be contained by Domestic League borders if they have anything to do with it.

Wasn't the whole Europe thing that the PRL could afford to say bye bye and still be ok because they have the league? Resulting in pretty much everyone of their requests being given? Although it still hasn't happened yet of course. But I doubt we'll see a return to the old scheme.

mmm not sure Oyonnax belong to the mega bucks club though! and Lyon is still in 2nd division

as a reminder here's the T14 official budget * ranking in million euro.

1 / Stade Toulousain : 35,419
2 / ASM Clermont : 26,718
3 / Stade Français : 24,968
4 / RC Toulon : 23,663
5 / Racing-Métro 92 : 22,452
6 / Montpellier : 19,971
7 / FC Grenoble : 18,644
8 / Aviron Bayonnais :18,147
9 / Castres Olympique : 17,335
10 / Biarritz Olympique : 16,944
11 / USAP : 14,953
12 / UBB : 12,862
13 / Brive : 11,092
14 / Oyonnax : 9,172

* official means reported by the club entity only and might not include proceeds such as royalties, image rights etc that could be paid to players separately

wolfball wrote:

beshocked wrote:Secretfly I agree. The only way for it to benefit all is to rein in the Top 14.

As you say us English will not want to play second fiddle to the French.

For compromise I would happily restrict the amount of foreigners in the AP to try and reduce the talent drain from the Pro12.

It's just you Pro12 fans have always seen the English as the most dangerous to rugby union when it's the French who are more so. Our current salary cap is closer to those of the Pro12.

Its hilarious watching the realisation of the decline of european rugby as we know it, that many of us have been warning about, slowly start to drip into the psyche of english posters on here. For better or worse the unions are the only way to stop the development of 5-6 european super-clubs that will win everything forever more. I mean when Irish provinces decline because our population can't support 8,9,20,50M salary caps, us Irish will be saddened (some of us sickened)... but when clubs like Bath become akin to Leeds in football.. then maybe english fans will realise their pact with the devil wasn't all good.

Wouldn't say there is the decline of european rugby just yet. It could go that way yes but not yet. A 3rd tier of European rugby I think could be really good for the sport.

By the way you could prevent more of the talent drain if you refuse to pick players for Ireland who play outside Ireland, same with Wales. England have lost very few players to France because of this. Our salary cap is not much more than that of the Irish if anything.

whocares wrote:mmm not sure Oyonnax belong to the mega bucks club though! and Lyon is still in 2nd division

as a reminder here's the T14 official  budget * ranking in million euro.

1 / Stade Toulousain : 35,419
2 / ASM Clermont : 26,718
3 / Stade Français : 24,968
4 / RC Toulon : 23,663
5 / Racing-Métro 92 : 22,452
6 / Montpellier : 19,971
7 / FC Grenoble : 18,644
8 / Aviron Bayonnais :18,147
9 / Castres Olympique : 17,335
10 / Biarritz Olympique : 16,944
11 / USAP : 14,953
12 / UBB : 12,862
13 / Brive : 11,092
14 / Oyonnax : 9,172

* official means reported by the club entity only and might not include proceeds such as royalties, image rights etc that could be paid to players separately

Hence my naming them - there seems to be a nightmare scenario that will inevitably occur in a few years in which french rugby will be taking over the world, and everyone outside france will be fighting for scraps with even the lesser french teams.

There's probably more danger of wage inflation from the ProD2 teams, who will benefit by 40% (or will it be 37.5%) of the TV largesse earned by T14.

I think Leicester had a turnover of about £20M, Saints £15M and Exeter £10M. So in Euroes - about 24M, 18M and 12M.

None of these could afford more on the cap without raising ticket prices. All three are using there extra money to invest in the ground.

But Tigers are comparable to Toulon, Saint to Bayonnais and Exeter to Brive. No idea if these include imaging rights. And not sure about stadium costs and things like that which I believe some French teams get for free/cheap.