The New European Cup Thread (Merged)

[Portnoy's Complaint]

First topic message reminder :

Can anyone provide an update on what is going to actually happen from next season?

A factual update would be welcome. As brief as possible.

Opinionated views not so.

[Irish Londoner]

Two ways of looking at where it goes from here:
1 - Things now stabalise for a few years, most of the clubs have got the players they want contracted, the refusal to cap overseas based English players keeps the best in the Jeff and the Irish/Welsh/Scots keep enough domestic players to stay competitive for a while.
2 - The more commercially agressive chairmen realise that the RFU is at it's most vunerable in the next 18 months leading to the RWC in England and given the RFU's financial commitment to the tournament take the opportunity to push everything to the limit.

[broadlandboy]

What can they push? Most agreements run post 2015

[HammerofThunor]

What can they push? Most agreements run post 2015

I think ALL agreements run til 2016. The only thing they could do is go to the letter of the contract rather than good will (Lancaster allowing players not to be rested, clubs allowing so change around in called up players, etc).

And then if the clubs do try and give the RFU Poopie before the WC in 2015 all the TV rights and commercial rights for the premiership return the RFU and the PRL are   ed.

[Feckless Rogue]

I wonder has it dawned on certain members of the PRL that the top few clubs, led by someone like Wray could just threaten to leave the AP and set up a super duper league with the the top few French and Irish sides. i.e. "Financial oblivion" for the lesser English sides, unless they agree to raise the cap and stop the "unfairness" of constraining the big boys?

People like Wray have led all this. They''ll want more in a few years. And they'll get it much easier because we haven't stopped their power grab. Not even in football do I remember a chairman threatening other teams like this but the ringleaders of the PRL have.

Funny to see some English posters in denial about the path European rugby is now on.

Meanwhile SANZAR is trying to figure out a format that would get an Argentinian franchise in. Permanently, no matter how they perform. For the benefit of Argentinian rugby and the future benefit of SANZAR.

[broadlandboy]

Feckless, reasons why your nightmare view is a way off,need for 14 home games, increased costs,until the non French market is equal to the French they will not want to join just for starters.
There is constant talk in football of the top teams creating a super duper European league but still it hasn't happened.
There is alot of talk in SA about leaving Super Rugby as they believe that they are subsidising NZ & especially AUS.

[whocares]

Meanwhile SANZAR is trying to figure out a format that would get an Argentinian franchise in. Permanently, no matter how they perform. For the benefit of Argentinian rugby and the future benefit of SANZAR.

Yeah right. meanwhile top argentinian players like Imhoff are thinking of putting their international career on standbye in order to maximise their earnings in France. That's how they care about their national team joining the 4N...

[LeinsterFan4life]

Meanwhile SANZAR is trying to figure out a format that would get an Argentinian franchise in. Permanently, no matter how they perform. For the benefit of Argentinian rugby and the future benefit of SANZAR.

Yeah right. meanwhile top argentinian players like Imhoff are thinking of putting their international career on standbye in order to maximise their earnings in France. That's how they care about their national team joining the 4N...

Why would he have to put his international career on standby to earn more money? Surely he will get more money from playing both international and club rugby?

Or are you suggesting that he will get extra money from his club to not play international rugby? We already know things like that has happened with the PI players.

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

Sanzar may be trying to incorporate an Argentinian franchise, but 6N Unions and club organisations have, if reports are to be believed, established a pathway for Georgian, Russian, Portuguese, etc teams to play in European competitions.

Is that worthy of credit?

[whocares]

LF4L. Sort of but  not quite like that. French clubs (Racing in the case of Imhoff) are happy to renew those contracts but dont want to pay as much as they pay him now because they know he wont be around for 3 good months so his value goes down. If you add the french JIFF quota to Argentina joining the 4N, it makes squad players from this country less attractive to french clubs who used to be their main employer. Short term it is not very good for the pumas but long term it might mean they will keep better players locally.

[HammerofThunor]

I wonder has it dawned on certain members of the PRL that the top few clubs, led by someone like Wray could just threaten to leave the AP and set up a super duper league with the the top few French and Irish sides. i.e. "Financial oblivion" for the lesser English sides, unless they agree to raise the cap and stop the "unfairness" of constraining the big boys?

People like Wray have led all this. They''ll want more in a few years. And they'll get it much easier because we haven't stopped their power grab. Not even in football do I remember a chairman threatening other teams like this but the ringleaders of the PRL have.

Funny to see some English posters in denial about the path European rugby is now on.

Meanwhile SANZAR is trying to figure out a format that would get an Argentinian franchise in. Permanently, no matter how they perform. For the benefit of Argentinian rugby and the future benefit of SANZAR.

Mainly because so many people talk complete rubbish like this to show they haven't got a clue what they're talking about. Bath and Saracens go? Let them, who gives a   ? Lumping them in with Saints and Tigers is completely ridiculous.

[Poorfour]

I think a super-duper Euro league is highly unlikely in the short term, for all sorts of reasons. For one, the biggest French clubs have considerably more money. For another, the Pro 12 suggests that the logistics of building a sufficiently mobile/cross-border fanbase to make it work are formidable. Next up, English clubs will be highly wary of French clubs after the shenanigans of the last few months.

But the clincher is the RFU and FFR. They would both have to authorise the league, and one or both of them would have to agree to organise it, and I can't see that happening any time soon. It's not in their interests; they want and need a vibrant domestic club competition.

Until the clubs are rich andpowerful enough to challenge the IRB, it ain't going to happen.

As an aside, two reasons why an Argentinian player might give up international rugby to earn moneyin France. i) Lack of options. Argentina doesn't have a professional club game. Unless they get a Super rugby franchise, that won't change. ii) A top player can earn far more in France than in the Super 15, even allowing for international payments.

[LeinsterFan4life]

LF4L. Sort of but  not quite like that. French clubs (Racing in the case of Imhoff) are happy to renew those contracts but dont want to pay as much as they pay him now because they know he wont be around for 3 good months so his value goes down. If you add the french JIFF quota to Argentina joining the 4N, it makes squad players from this country less attractive to french clubs who used to be their main employer. Short term it is not very good for the pumas but long term it might mean they will keep better players locally.

This is one of the reasons why we need a global season asap.

[HammerofThunor]

Would certainly make things easier and remove a lot of problems.

[Exiledinborders]

In the Telegraph today it says that a third tier competition will be set up the winners of which will qualify for the second tier (Amlin replacement). That is good and makes sense. It also says:

The winners of the new second-tier competition will then qualify for a play-off involving the eighth and ninth-placed teams in the Pro12 and the seventh-placed clubs from England and France for the final place in the European Rugby Champions Cup, the new elite tournament that is replacing the Heineken Cup.

That does not make sense on two levels.

• it appears to be a five team play-off which seems odd
  
• the ninth placed Pro12 team qualify for play-offs whereas in Top14 and AP teams need to get into top seven. This seems to go against the equality for each league that the PRL have been fighting for.
  

It could of course be that the Telegraph has got things wrong. Better options would be:

• A four way play-off between pro12 eighth place, the Top14 and AP seventh places and Amlin winners.
  
• a four way play-off between both Amlin finalists and Top14 and AP seventh places.
  

Personally I prefer the second of these as it gives greater incentive to do well in Amlin and it puts each league on a more equal footing. Pro12 will still have slight advantage as seventh places qualifies automatically whereas the other leagues go into play-offs.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

You are missing the whole point of the playoffs. To give clubs who are down the pecking order something to play for at the end of the season.

How de fock can a team that is in an Amlin semi or final also be in a playoff at the same time.

I love the way you are so appreciative of the pro12 unions giving up 3 places in the comp btw.   

You must have gone to the "PRL school of compromise"

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Well well!

R5 has just announced that a 'final' announcement will be made 'within the next twenty-four hours'

That'll be worth at least another 1000 posts of navel-gazing and moral mazing over 'fairness'.

All good news for 606v2...

[LondonTiger]

In the Telegraph today it says that a third tier competition will be set up the winners of which will qualify for the second tier (Amlin replacement). That is good and makes sense. It also says:

The winners of the new second-tier competition will then qualify for a play-off involving the eighth and ninth-placed teams in the Pro12 and the seventh-placed clubs from England and France for the final place in the European Rugby Champions Cup, the new elite tournament that is replacing the Heineken Cup.

That does not make sense on two levels.
[list]
[*]it appears to be a five team play-off which seems odd

Should the winner of the Amlin replacement not already qualify fopr wither the Top tiwer or the play-offs, they will take the spot of the lower ranked team from their League. So from next season it will always be 2 from Pro12, 1 each from the other two. Or according to the Times anyway.

[SecretFly]

Statement from New European Body:

"In all fairness, and at the end of the day, and all things considered, and yeah, no; we've come to a conclusion to difficult negotiations, and we can confirm that we now have a brand new European competition based on old values of Unfairness, one-upmanship, dubious Home reffing, ancient ideas of Nationalism, new ideas of Pan-European dictatorship, Regional bickering, French pilfering, English meritocracy and Provincial Pomposity.

We look forward to a future rife with these old ideals and hopefully we'll be back at the negotiations in a few years time when we can re-engage with the word 'Fariness' again in good faith and with due diligence."

[Notch]

Pro12 will still have slight advantage as seventh places qualifies automatically whereas the other leagues go into play-offs.

Actually, unless the Italian sides improve beyond measure, seventh place definitely does not qualify automatically- this year the seventh automatic place would go to Treviso in 11th if the league finished as it is now. And the qualifiers would be the current Top 6 plus Treviso with whoever finishes 7th dropping down into the Tier 2 competition.

Sixth place in the Pro12 isn't a guaranteed qualifying place either. If both Scottish sides and Italian sides finish outside the Top 6 then their two automatic places will go to teams in the bottom half of the table and only a Top 5 finish would guarantee you a place.

The Pro12 is the only one of the three leagues where a sixth place finish doesn't guarantee you'll qualify for Europe- if you're Irish or Welsh that is.

As for equality for each league- ridiculous concept. Your league is teams from one country. Our league is teams from four countries. How can people still not get that!

[Dubbelyew L Overate]

In the Telegraph today it says that a third tier competition will be set up the winners of which will qualify for the second tier (Amlin replacement). That is good and makes sense. It also says:

The winners of the new second-tier competition will then qualify for a play-off involving the eighth and ninth-placed teams in the Pro12 and the seventh-placed clubs from England and France for the final place in the European Rugby Champions Cup, the new elite tournament that is replacing the Heineken Cup.

That does not make sense on two levels.
[list]
[*]it appears to be a five team play-off which seems odd

[*]

Should the winner of the Amlin replacement not already qualify fopr wither the Top tiwer or the play-offs, they will take the spot of the lower ranked team from their League. So from next season it will always be 2 from Pro12, 1 each from the other two. Or according to the Times anyway.

So what happens if a Russian team wins Amlinv2?

[Portnoy's Complaint]

I hope without any confidence that the whole organisation of the new tourney will be announced.

I'd expect a confirmation of the constituents of the Euro competition to be announced but seedings structure, knock-out rounds arrangements etc., not

[Scrumpy]

So what is the ERC organization going to do next year?

[Exiledinborders]

Pro12 will still have slight advantage as seventh places qualifies automatically whereas the other leagues go into play-offs.

Actually, unless the Italian sides improve beyond measure, seventh place definitely does not qualify automatically- this year the seventh automatic place would go to Treviso in 11th if the league finished as it is now. And the qualifiers would be the current Top 6 plus Treviso with whoever finishes 7th dropping down into the Tier 2 competition.

Sixth place in the Pro12 isn't a guaranteed qualifying place either. If both Scottish sides and Italian sides finish outside the Top 6 then their two automatic places will go to teams in the bottom half of the table and only a Top 5 finish would guarantee you a place.

The Pro12 is the only one of the three leagues where a sixth place finish doesn't guarantee you'll qualify for Europe- if you're Irish or Welsh that is.

As for equality for each league- ridiculous concept. Your league is teams from one country. Our league is teams from four countries. How can people still not get that!

What have countries got to do with it. It is a club competition. In the new setup more teams will qualify from the twelve in Pro12 than the other two leagues.

Chance of qualifying automatically:
Pro 12 58% (7/12). AP 50% (6/12) Top 14 43% (6/14)
Chance of getting into playoffs
Pro 12 17% (2/12) AP 8% (1/12) Top 14 7% (1/14)
Chance not being in either
Pro 12 25% (3/12) AP 42% (5/12) Top 14 50% (7/14)

So even in new improved system 50% of Top 14 teams will go straight into second tier but only 25% of Pro 12. Hopefully next time contracts are renegotiated we will get even nearer to a fair system.

[SecretFly]

Pro12 will still have slight advantage as seventh places qualifies automatically whereas the other leagues go into play-offs.

Actually, unless the Italian sides improve beyond measure, seventh place definitely does not qualify automatically- this year the seventh automatic place would go to Treviso in 11th if the league finished as it is now. And the qualifiers would be the current Top 6 plus Treviso with whoever finishes 7th dropping down into the Tier 2 competition.

Sixth place in the Pro12 isn't a guaranteed qualifying place either. If both Scottish sides and Italian sides finish outside the Top 6 then their two automatic places will go to teams in the bottom half of the table and only a Top 5 finish would guarantee you a place.

The Pro12 is the only one of the three leagues where a sixth place finish doesn't guarantee you'll qualify for Europe- if you're Irish or Welsh that is.

As for equality for each league- ridiculous concept. Your league is teams from one country. Our league is teams from four countries. How can people still not get that!

What have countries got to do with it. It is a club competition. In the new setup more teams will qualify from the twelve in Pro12 than the other two leagues.  

Chance of qualifying automatically:
Pro 12 58% (7/12). AP 50% (6/12) Top 14 43% (6/14)
Chance of getting into playoffs
Pro 12 17% (2/12) AP 8% (1/12) Top 14 7% (1/14)
Chance not being in either
Pro 12 25% (3/12) AP 42% (5/12) Top 14 50% (7/14)

So even in new improved system 50% of Top 14 teams will go straight into second tier but only 25% of Pro 12. Hopefully next time contracts are renegotiated we will get even nearer to a fair system.

You guys...some of you would make great politicians.  When is a number a percentage?  When it agrees with the spin!  Otherwise use numbers or percentages exclusively and independently from each other.

I'll tell you what countries have to do with it.

66.66%!  

As in that's the percentage of countries that have nothing to do with either AP or Top14.
So when people from outside England and France say countries have 'everything' to do with it, they're the majority percentage shareholding talking.  That means 'Everything' is the legitmate democratic answer.  

And thus ends the lecture on how Percentages are used to displace the importance of numbers.

[geoff998rugby]

Pro12 will still have slight advantage as seventh places qualifies automatically whereas the other leagues go into play-offs.

Actually, unless the Italian sides improve beyond measure, seventh place definitely does not qualify automatically- this year the seventh automatic place would go to Treviso in 11th if the league finished as it is now. And the qualifiers would be the current Top 6 plus Treviso with whoever finishes 7th dropping down into the Tier 2 competition.

Sixth place in the Pro12 isn't a guaranteed qualifying place either. If both Scottish sides and Italian sides finish outside the Top 6 then their two automatic places will go to teams in the bottom half of the table and only a Top 5 finish would guarantee you a place.

The Pro12 is the only one of the three leagues where a sixth place finish doesn't guarantee you'll qualify for Europe- if you're Irish or Welsh that is.

As for equality for each league- ridiculous concept. Your league is teams from one country. Our league is teams from four countries. How can people still not get that!

What have countries got to do with it. It is a club competition. In the new setup more teams will qualify from the twelve in Pro12 than the other two leagues.  

Chance of qualifying automatically:
Pro 12 58% (7/12). AP 50% (6/12) Top 14 43% (6/14)
Chance of getting into playoffs
Pro 12 17% (2/12) AP 8% (1/12) Top 14 7% (1/14)
Chance not being in either
Pro 12 25% (3/12) AP 42% (5/12) Top 14 50% (7/14)

So even in new improved system 50% of Top 14 teams will go straight into second tier but only 25% of Pro 12. Hopefully next time contracts are renegotiated we will get even nearer to a fair system.

Changes of 6 teams from England qualifying - 100%
Changes of 6 teams from Framce qualifying - 100%
Change of 6 Welsh teams qualifying - 0%
Change of 6 Irish teams qualifying - 0%
Change of 6 Italian teams qualifying - 0%
Change of 6 Scottish teams qualifying - 0%


Change of 6th place in Avival qualifying - 100%
Change of 6th place in T14 qualifying - 100%
Change of 6th place in Pro12 qualifying - 75% (I think!)

So I agree with you lets have true faireness for all nations next time

[LondonTiger]

Can we move the petty bickering to one of the many other threads?

Fact is we will never ever agree on what was a fair restructuring - and all it does is derail threads where we try to discuss the future.

[geoff998rugby]

No problem - if exile buttons it - happy to leave alone

[SecretFly]

Can we move the petty bickering to one of the many other threads?

Fact is we will never ever agree on what was a fair restructuring - and all it does is derail threads where we try to discuss the future.

Fact is pretty much everything coming down the line at us in the Final Solution was decided using terminology linked to 'fairness'.

We'll see how fair the new system will be in operation.  But fairness was the selling point for change - not the idea that everyone should be happy with more money yet perhaps less participation.

So no, don't agree with you Tiger on the idea that the debate about 'fairness' is running counter to good debate on European rugby.  The word has particular and sensitive meaning for many - and we'll see how it accounts for itself when the future gets up and running.

[LondonTiger]

OK fine. Then I leave this thread as we will just see complete intransigence from all sides and bitter rancour.

[Scrumpy]

I'm just happy we are getting a fair (level playing field) Euro Comp, long over due imo.

[Notch]

 

Same old PRL line then. It's not a club competition. Club competition implies that it is contested exclusively by clubs. This is not the case. It is a hybrid competition featuring privately owned clubs and union-run regional sides with various degrees of central control.

As such, trying to apply one set of universal standards to how qualifying is governed and revenue is split without taking into account the differences in organisation is never going to work.

I'm glad we have the situation nearly resolved but seeing a situation where England and France have six times as many guaranteed entrants as any other nation described as a 'level playing field' is just... so ridiculous to me.

[Scrumpy]

But at least its fair.

[Welshmushroom]

Sadly maybe I am one of the few who actually thinks the group stages will become a worse spectacle as a result of the changes. We already had a structure where the primary goal from at least 50% of the qualifiers was to merely qualify for the HC, with no real ambition to go any further. Castres are a key example. Rested the best players for the duration to focus on re-qualifying and pushing in the domestic league instead. Pro 12 sides have always fielded the best teams possible even when they had no mathimatical chance of qualifying. What will happen next year? Is it wiser for sides who lose 2 games to automatically substitute in their B lineup just to focus on making sure they requalify next year? My worry is that the viewpoint in the Pro 12 to the HC will change and they will focus more on the domestic qualifyication for it than actually performing. Dont get me wrong Ulster, Munster & Leinster will always show up regardless but then again they hardly ever struggle to make the playoffs (top 4). Also with reduced pools and a straight forward qualifying format (top 2 from pools), we are likely to see the big hitters in Europe end a lot of the interest within 2-3 rounds of the HC.

Additionally I see no wisdom in continueing the CC (second tier). It hardly generates any major cash and just serves as extra fixtures for those teams. Given the travel costs must be substanital I cant see how any side competiting in it will make any major money from it. The third tier will also just serve as an additional expense. Smarter would have been to have one european tournament and introduce more neutral prelinimary rounds to envolve more teams. Would have at least added spice prior to the Group stages.

I hope I am wrong with the above but if Pro 12 sides do adapt the same policies some of the English/French sides have with Europe, we will have a worse spectacle and far more predictable tournament than we already have.

[Scrumpy]

Pro 12 sides have always fielded the best teams possible.

Are you wearing rose tinted specs?  

Its good for the Pro12 that a few teams will have to try harder over the whole season, it will make the Pro12 a credible league and that will only improve some of the teams.

[SecretFly]

But at least its fair.

At least you're consistent.................. 100% of the time.

[Notch]

Its a shame the Italian teams are pulling out as this is the league they have needed to develop.

You're slightly behind the times Scrumps. The Italians are staying in the league.

[Guest]

Pro 12 sides have always fielded the best teams possible.

Are you wearing rose tinted specs?  

Its good for the Pro1210 that a few teams will have to try harder over the whole season, it will make the Pro12 10 a credible league and that will only improve some of the teams.

Its a shame the Italian teams are pulling out as this is the league they have needed to develop.

  

[Scrumpy]

Are they?

Didn't see that reported anywhere in England, good luck to them. I hope the rest of the Rabo field strong teams when they play them away instead of the backup teams.  

[Guest]

Are they?

Didn't see that reported anywhere in England, good luck to them.  I hope the rest of the Rabo field strong teams when they play them away instead of the backup teams.  

Like the French and the English do?  

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

But at least its fair.

Surely fair, in the sense of unequivocally fair, would be the best XX sides in a cup competition regardless of what country or what league they come from?? Ah, but you don't really want to know about 'fair' after all ...

[SecretFly]

Are they?

Didn't see that reported anywhere in England, good luck to them.  I hope the rest of the Rabo field strong teams when they play them away instead of the backup teams.  

Scrumpy...the thing about this new way is that you don't have to care anymore.  You can completely ignore the Pro12 from now on, content in the knowledge that the bigger Pro12 sides have been nobbled and will now be coming to Europe with many of their first teamers either injured or exhausted from all the extra hard edged games they'll have to play.  The new rules make that a guarantee........  

   Or do they?

I can feel the tension from here.  "Hmmmm, I hope the Leinsters and Ulsters now play fair and send their Internationals to play in the smaller Pro12 games..... it's only fair and now they have to or they won't qualify.  Will they?  Surely the rules will make them basterauds play more games?   Surely they can't still chance the cottonwool???"

Hmmmmmm.......................

[broadlandboy]

It is a club competition, for it to be a Union competition there would only be Union eligable players allowed,

[SecretFly]

It's what it is. A mongrel.

[Guest]

It is a club competition, for it to be a Union competition there would only be Union eligable players allowed,

Surely all the players are union?   

[Scrumpy]

Are they?

Didn't see that reported anywhere in England, good luck to them.  I hope the rest of the Rabo field strong teams when they play them away instead of the backup teams.  

Like the French and the English do?  

We always field strong sides apart from during and after the AIs and 6 Nations windows.

Its not that I don't enjoy watching the Rabo (I'm a rugby fan so always enjoy watching games) but I do always feel a little let down when the team sheets are released.

As I already said i'm just happy we have a fair competition for all.  

[broadlandboy]

Eligable for the relevant union

[SecretFly]

I hope we continue the policy of third string sides for the bottom feeders.
You can't be letting players that aren't worthy have the honour of facing your Gods... it's an affront to the natural Class/caste system

[LordDowlais]

Are they?

Didn't see that reported anywhere in England, good luck to them.  I hope the rest of the Rabo field strong teams when they play them away instead of the backup teams.  

how dare us Celts and Italians go ahead and make decisions without telling anybody in another country who as sweet fook all to do with anything.  

[Notch]

It is a club competition, for it to be a Union competition there would only be Union eligable players allowed,

  

[Guest]

Are they?

Didn't see that reported anywhere in England, good luck to them.  I hope the rest of the Rabo field strong teams when they play them away instead of the backup teams.  

Like the French and the English do?  

We always field strong sides apart from during and after the AIs and 6 Nations windows.

Its not that I don't enjoy watching the Rabo (I'm a rugby fan so always enjoy watching games) but I do always feel a little let down when the team sheets are released.

As I already said i'm just happy we have a fair competition for all.  

The same can be said of the Rabo teams...

6 Ns, AIs, injuries and rotation all comes into the equation. The question is though, why should teams play their strongest possible team when facing weaker opposition? It's a chance to blood new prospects, provide an opportunity for second/third choice players to gain experience, try different combinations beyond the training ground, and build strength in depth.

[Sponsored content]